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  • At the height of the power weve seen them have on screen (so that's Gogeta Blue when he fought Broly)

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    • My moneys on Gogeta.

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    • Base Gogeta equals MUI Goku. SSJ Gogeta will win easily.

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    • Gogeta Omni wrote:
      Base Gogeta equals MUI Goku. SSJ Gogeta will win easily.

      Where did you get that idea from, I'm pretty sure the power gap is much closer than that. I think it's more like SSJB Gogeta >=< MUI Goku.

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    • ... what does >=< mean? That's literally every different possibility together. How is >=< different from =?

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    • DopeHornet25
      DopeHornet25 removed this reply because:
      b
      19:08, January 15, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • NervousShipper wrote:
      ... what does >=< mean? That's literally every different possibility together. How is >=< different from =?

      What it means is that either one could be slightly stronger,or equal.

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    • Actually it looks like the emoticon of the face a person makes when they hear that explanation.

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    • Who writes your quirky messages? I’m really interested to know.

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    • I do.

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    • Huh, fascinating.

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    • I know you're being sarcastic, but I'm going to pretend I'm a Republican president and take it as a compliment

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    • You seem to have a lot of assumptions about me, I wasn’t being sarcastic I find your posts and stance on things interesting that’s all.

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    • DopeHornet25 wrote:
      Gogeta Omni wrote:
      Base Gogeta equals MUI Goku. SSJ Gogeta will win easily.
      Where did you get that idea from, I'm pretty sure the power gap is much closer than that. I think it's more like SSJB Gogeta >=< MUI Goku.

      Let's see.

      Ikari Broly was equally fighting with Full Powered SSB Goku even after being hit by a close range ki ball from goku before frieza got his attention and he watched Paragus's dead body. You know if you watched the movie closely with every detail.

      After transforming SSJ Broly gets atleast 50 times boost over his Ikari form, makes 50 times stronger than full powered SSB Goku. And Goku and Vegeta together had no chance ,they were literally flying away from him.Then he  cloabbered Frieza for one hour. After that Broly again powered up, atleast 10 times as he was doing ahole time in the movie and attacked Whis.

      When Base Gogeta appeared he effortlessly dodged and deflected Broly's attack and was lot faster than him. So that time base Gogeta equals powered up SSj Broly , who in fact was stronger than full powered ssb Goku by 50*10 =500, lets ease it down say 100. How much boost does MUI gives over Goku's Strongest form?  Maximum 100.

      So, for Me ,Mui Goku equals Base Gogeta. And SSj Gogeta gets 50 times Advantage over base. And SSG gets 1000 times over SSJ, SSB gets 50 times over SSG.

      Mui Goku was never close to SSB Gogeta.

      NB: In Movie and manga  version SSB kioken and SSB Evolved doesn't exist. Manga has a Equivalent strong SSB transformation , Perfected SSB Fulll Power(Goku) and  Enraged Perfected SSB ( Vegeta).

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    • What the hell, where you got this numbers and powers scales? Its just stupid talking, from the start of Super there is no powerscalling at all it ended with DBZ. We have totally twisted levels of power. Transformation in ssj and some multipliers mean nothing now. 

      At first, beerus used 80% of its power against SSG, later 20x kaioken ssgss, was still weaker than beerus and many more times weaker than Jiren. Then Goku is going for MUI and he is many times stronger than jiren. Mathematics does not work in dbs, the only thing you can say is in the dialogues of the character and what we see. Based on that we know:

      - Goku MUI is far stronger than any God of destruction (explanation: base Jiren was stronger than god of destruction, Limit breaker Jiren was even more strong, and still he got destroyed by MUI Goku. So MUI Go ku > all other characters except angels)

      - In the end of DBS: Broly, Goku said that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus(so he is not far stronger than Beerus - what is reasonable)

      - Gogeta blue, with little effort defeated Broly at his full power in the movie



      Summarizing these facts, we can conclude that MUI Goku and Gogeta blue are equal, its impossible to say who is clearly stronger.

      Beerus < Full Power Broly = Full Power Jiren < Limit Breaker Jiren < MUI Goku = Gogeta blue < angels

      • note: I do not take the manga into account because it is too different from the anime, and anime is primary cannon art. 
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    • Correction Jiren never said to be stronger than all Gods of Destructon. In the Funimation Dub of the episode they corrected it by saying " their own God of Destructiion can't defeat". The Sub translation was wrong. That makes it Belmond may not be able to defeat Jiren at full power.  And all Gods aren't at equal srenghth.

      kenxyro tweet

      ken 1

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    • Other question, can gogeta go UI, or does vegeta get in the way?

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    • The way I see it fusion has been established as one of the most powerful techniques among dragon ball, Vegito/Gogeta’s base form dwarfed SS3 Goku so I would say SSB Gogeta is definitely stronger than UI from how fusion is generally utilized.

      @Shipper I would think he would have all of both fusees abilities, for instance Fused Zamasu was immortal regardless of Goku Black’s mortality. I know a lot of people don’t like the manga but this movie follows the manga closer than it follows the anime and Toriyama has far more to do with the manga.

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    • Yes, but immortality is a wished ability, and MUI is letting go of pride.

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    • But both were an ability of one of the participants, but I definitely see what you mean, Gogeta could have some of that pride that makes it unattainable. And then again he is part Goku which means he was taught and would have the ability to let go of any pride he had to get a job done(Goku attained the Super Saiyan Red form even though he didn’t want power that wasn’t his own) so it’s be kind of a toss up but I think Gogeta could do it especially since one of the fusees already has done it, Gogeta doesn’t need to attain it as he by extension already has. He must simply tap into it, which is an entirely different story.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      But both were an ability of one of the participants, but I definitely see what you mean, Gogeta could have some of that pride that makes it unattainable. And then again he is part Goku which means he was taught and would have the ability to let go of any pride he had to get a job done(Goku attained the Super Saiyan Red form even though he didn’t want power that wasn’t his own) so it’s be kind of a toss up but I think Gogeta could do it especially since one of the fusees already has done it, Gogeta doesn’t need to attain it as he by extension already has. He must simply tap into it, which is an entirely different story.

      Goku also said he didn't think he could do it at will.

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    • Yeah that’s what I said at the end, tapping into it is an entirely different story, he has the ability by extension.

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    • I'm pretty sure the answer to this is simple.

      MUI Goku went toe-to-toe against Jiren, with MUI Goku triumphing over Jiren after much difficulty, meaning both are roughly the same level of strength (MUI Goku being stronger though, of course)

      Now, Broly is said to be the most powerful opponent Goku has faced thus far, meaning Jiren too. 

      And with SSB Gogeta being clearly stronger than Broly, that places Gogeta on a higher level than MUI Goku. Gogeta managed to defeat an opponent more powerful than Jiren, and without too much struggle either.

      So, that means Gogeta is stronger than MUI Goku, based on the opponents they were up against.

      If we're talking specifically about Base Gogeta or SSJ Gogeta though, I'll choose to not make any statements since I feel like we saw hardly any of Base Gogeta, and SSJ Gogeta could go either way, I feel.

      (On a side note, Gogeta may even potentially be able to use Ultra Instinct, though that's very iffy. If he can, however, then that completely trumps MUI Goku as well.)

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    • On the other hand, Broly started out much much much much weaker than Jiren, and since he wasn't able to handle Gogeta, it means he plateaus. Also, since hyperbole is hyperbole, you can't rely on advertisements by the writers to dictate power.

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    • Not enough information—and Jiren was confirmed even by canon supplemental materials (not fan publications) to outstrip the power of the Gods of Destruction, plural. He then powers up immensely, and is still handily defeated by Goku in the fullness of his Ultra Instinct power. This puts them both considerably above the Gods of Destruction. This much is canon, objective fact, proven onscreen and confirmed in official materials.

      Broly is around Beerus' power level. Maybe a little weaker, slim possibility of being stronger, but as stated by Goku, he's more or less on Beerus' level. I don't think he'd beat Beerus, even if he was a little stronger, because Beerus is crazy skilled, on the level of Piccolo and (when acting rationally) Vegeta. Not quite as skilled as Goku, but the best fighter of the Gods of Destruction that we are shown.

      This means that Broly at his height is considerably weaker than Jiren's awakened power or MUI Goku. He's also completely outclassed by Blue Gogeta. THIS IS ALL WE KNOW FOR SURE. Jiren, MUI Goku, and Blue Gogeta all greatly outclass Broly. That's it. We have no actual information for what the differences are, other than MUI Goku > awakened Jiren, but both are stronger than Broly by a large margin. We don't have any real information, nothing concrete and nothing canon, as far as the ratio by which each of the three warriors outstrips Broly.

      For all we know, MUI Goku and awakened Jiren could be stronger still than Gogeta Blue, or it's possible he might have the edge on them. Until any official source clarifies a stance on this, and it probably never will, one guess is as good as another.

      Personally, I like the idea of Goku and Jiren being even above Gogeta, like they ascended to a level that few but perhaps the Angels could ever conceive of, but we don't know for sure.

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    • I agree we have very little information but we have more than enough to put this into perspective, MUI Goku was acknowledged by Beerus to only be possibly stronger than Jiren and by no surprise Goku defeated Jiren in this form until it ran out he was undoubtedly stronger than Jiren. I know people keep saying that Jiren exceeds a Destroyer but we must remember it specifically said HIS Destroyer, and obviously in his most powerful state Jiren lost to him yet Beerus was still saying he may POSSIBLY be even stronger than me. This alone, due to Goku saying this same thing in regard to Broly and the Saikyo Jump saying his power surpasses a Destroyer, puts him at least on the level of Jiren(BUW) and Goku(MUI) beyond the fact that Saikyo Jump isn’t some randy hype comic it’s a magazine published by the very same company that puts out the manga(In the middle of the flippin day but that’s another story for another time) and it acknowledged Broly as THE STRONGEST opponent they have faced. So even if you don’t want to take the statement of him being the strongest from Saikyo/Herms, Goku himself placed him at their power by saying he is probably even stronger than Beerus, also backed by an entirely different statement from Saikyo, and after all this Gogeta still utterly OWNED him. In short, Gogeta Blue wins(which is kinda crazy because Vegito was acknowledged to be stronger than Beerus way back in Goku Blacks arc).

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      I agree we have very little information but we have more than enough to put this into perspective, MUI Goku was acknowledged by Beerus to only be possibly stronger than Jiren and by no surprise Goku defeated Jiren in this form until it ran out he was undoubtedly stronger than Jiren. I know people keep saying that Jiren exceeds a Destroyer but we must remember it specifically said HIS Destroyer, and obviously in his most powerful state Jiren lost to him yet Beerus was still saying he may POSSIBLY be even stronger than me. This alone, due to Goku saying this same thing in regard to Broly and the Saikyo Jump saying his power surpasses a Destroyer, puts him at least on the level of Jiren(BUW) and Goku(MUI) beyond the fact that Saikyo Jump isn’t some randy hype comic it’s a magazine published by the very same company that puts out the manga(In the middle of the flippin day but that’s another story for another time) and it acknowledged Broly as THE STRONGEST opponent they have faced. So even if you don’t want to take the statement of him being the strongest from Saikyo/Herms, Goku himself placed him at their power by saying he is probably even stronger than Beerus, also backed by an entirely different statement from Saikyo, and after all this Gogeta still utterly OWNED him. In short, Gogeta Blue wins(which is kinda crazy because Vegito was acknowledged to be stronger than Beerus way back in Goku Blacks arc).

      Just for some fun, your right. Jiren is stonger then his destroyer (it mentions all im pretty sure but lets say it doesn't) who is stated to be stronger then Beerus. SO that was a rather mute and stupid point to bring up. Also, hyperbole statements for hype shouldn't be taken as fact. If they were Baby is the strongest villain ever and can't be surpassed. Same for Omega Shemron. 

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    • Hahaha Belmond stronger than Beerus? Suuuure

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    • Jspencer1993 wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      I agree we have very little information but we have more than enough to put this into perspective, MUI Goku was acknowledged by Beerus to only be possibly stronger than Jiren and by no surprise Goku defeated Jiren in this form until it ran out he was undoubtedly stronger than Jiren. I know people keep saying that Jiren exceeds a Destroyer but we must remember it specifically said HIS Destroyer, and obviously in his most powerful state Jiren lost to him yet Beerus was still saying he may POSSIBLY be even stronger than me. This alone, due to Goku saying this same thing in regard to Broly and the Saikyo Jump saying his power surpasses a Destroyer, puts him at least on the level of Jiren(BUW) and Goku(MUI) beyond the fact that Saikyo Jump isn’t some randy hype comic it’s a magazine published by the very same company that puts out the manga(In the middle of the flippin day but that’s another story for another time) and it acknowledged Broly as THE STRONGEST opponent they have faced. So even if you don’t want to take the statement of him being the strongest from Saikyo/Herms, Goku himself placed him at their power by saying he is probably even stronger than Beerus, also backed by an entirely different statement from Saikyo, and after all this Gogeta still utterly OWNED him. In short, Gogeta Blue wins(which is kinda crazy because Vegito was acknowledged to be stronger than Beerus way back in Goku Blacks arc).

      Just for some fun, your right. Jiren is stonger then his destroyer (it mentions all im pretty sure but lets say it doesn't) who is stated to be stronger then Beerus. SO that was a rather mute and stupid point to bring up. Also, hyperbole statements for hype shouldn't be taken as fact. If they were Baby is the strongest villain ever and can't be surpassed. Same for Omega Shemron. 

      Belmod only beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match for one and for two it was said that the other Destroyers would have been defeated if not killed by Beerus sphere of destruction. Beyond the fact that Beerus clearly says Goku is POSSIBLY stronger than himself, remember who won that fight? Goku(MUI) did.

      Now on the subject of Baby, he was the strongest enemy AT THAT POINT remember when frieza was emperor of the universe but Beerus is was out there? Or when Majin Buu was the strongest in the Universe but again BEERUS WAS OUT THERE? Beyond the fact that FPS4 Goku destroyed Baby while FPS4 is destroyed by Omega Shenron. Whom was in turn destroyed by Gogeta.

      The long and short of it is Gogeta is infact stronger than MUI Goku(during ToP) and Jiren AND Beerus. This much was stated back in Goku Black Arc.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      Jspencer1993 wrote:


      Chrome0X wrote:
      I agree we have very little information but we have more than enough to put this into perspective, MUI Goku was acknowledged by Beerus to only be possibly stronger than Jiren and by no surprise Goku defeated Jiren in this form until it ran out he was undoubtedly stronger than Jiren. I know people keep saying that Jiren exceeds a Destroyer but we must remember it specifically said HIS Destroyer, and obviously in his most powerful state Jiren lost to him yet Beerus was still saying he may POSSIBLY be even stronger than me. This alone, due to Goku saying this same thing in regard to Broly and the Saikyo Jump saying his power surpasses a Destroyer, puts him at least on the level of Jiren(BUW) and Goku(MUI) beyond the fact that Saikyo Jump isn’t some randy hype comic it’s a magazine published by the very same company that puts out the manga(In the middle of the flippin day but that’s another story for another time) and it acknowledged Broly as THE STRONGEST opponent they have faced. So even if you don’t want to take the statement of him being the strongest from Saikyo/Herms, Goku himself placed him at their power by saying he is probably even stronger than Beerus, also backed by an entirely different statement from Saikyo, and after all this Gogeta still utterly OWNED him. In short, Gogeta Blue wins(which is kinda crazy because Vegito was acknowledged to be stronger than Beerus way back in Goku Blacks arc).
      Just for some fun, your right. Jiren is stonger then his destroyer (it mentions all im pretty sure but lets say it doesn't) who is stated to be stronger then Beerus. SO that was a rather mute and stupid point to bring up.

      Also, hyperbole statements for hype shouldn't be taken as fact. If they were Baby is the strongest villain ever and can't be surpassed. Same for Omega Shemron. 

      Belmod only beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match for one and for two it was said that the other Destroyers would have been defeated if not killed by Beerus sphere of destruction. Beyond the fact that Beerus clearly says Goku is POSSIBLY stronger than himself, remember who won that fight? Goku(MUI) did.

      Now on the subject of Baby, he was the strongest enemy AT THAT POINT remember when frieza was emperor of the universe but Beerus is was out there? Or when Majin Buu was the strongest in the Universe but again BEERUS WAS OUT THERE? Beyond the fact that FPS4 Goku destroyed Baby while FPS4 is destroyed by Omega Shenron. Whom was in turn destroyed by Gogeta.

      The long and short of it is Gogeta is infact stronger than MUI Goku(during ToP) and Jiren AND Beerus. This much was stated back in Goku Black Arc.

      Um...no. It was not stated back in the Goku Black Arc. Hell your entire statement comes down to being moronic if you just reread the last sentence. Gogeta stated stronger then beerus in the Goku Black Arc....wow....interesting. Anyone want to take the time to tear that apart?

      Also its directly stated Belmond is stronger then Beerus and jiren is stronger then Belmond. Not sure how we can argue with direct statements.  Also this entire argument comes down to a statement in Saikyo jump known for hyperbole that fans refuse to take as such. 

      Interesting to note after that match you reference between the gods, only Belmond didn't require healing either. But who knows, maybe everything in the serious stated and shown by Toriyama is wrong and some random writer for Saikyo is right, well and you.

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    • Arm wrestle =/= fight

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Arm wrestle =/= fight

      In the manga, it wasn't Belmond that beat Beerus in arm wreslting but Quitela...so can you stop trying to refute Belmond with that yet. 

      And only Geene and Goku made the remarks that Beerus's blast might kill them. However, Belmonds attack against the other gods was taken as a serious attempt to try and kill them by atleast one other god as well, make the Beerus's feat thing mute. 

      Still at the end of the fight, the only god 100% unharmed was Belmond while the rest had tons of damage.

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    • Heartlesslove93 wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:

      Jspencer1993 wrote:


      Chrome0X wrote:
      I agree we have very little information but we have more than enough to put this into perspective, MUI Goku was acknowledged by Beerus to only be possibly stronger than Jiren and by no surprise Goku defeated Jiren in this form until it ran out he was undoubtedly stronger than Jiren. I know people keep saying that Jiren exceeds a Destroyer but we must remember it specifically said HIS Destroyer, and obviously in his most powerful state Jiren lost to him yet Beerus was still saying he may POSSIBLY be even stronger than me. This alone, due to Goku saying this same thing in regard to Broly and the Saikyo Jump saying his power surpasses a Destroyer, puts him at least on the level of Jiren(BUW) and Goku(MUI) beyond the fact that Saikyo Jump isn’t some randy hype comic it’s a magazine published by the very same company that puts out the manga(In the middle of the flippin day but that’s another story for another time) and it acknowledged Broly as THE STRONGEST opponent they have faced. So even if you don’t want to take the statement of him being the strongest from Saikyo/Herms, Goku himself placed him at their power by saying he is probably even stronger than Beerus, also backed by an entirely different statement from Saikyo, and after all this Gogeta still utterly OWNED him. In short, Gogeta Blue wins(which is kinda crazy because Vegito was acknowledged to be stronger than Beerus way back in Goku Blacks arc).
      Just for some fun, your right. Jiren is stonger then his destroyer (it mentions all im pretty sure but lets say it doesn't) who is stated to be stronger then Beerus. SO that was a rather mute and stupid point to bring up.

      Also, hyperbole statements for hype shouldn't be taken as fact. If they were Baby is the strongest villain ever and can't be surpassed. Same for Omega Shemron. 

      Belmod only beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match for one and for two it was said that the other Destroyers would have been defeated if not killed by Beerus sphere of destruction. Beyond the fact that Beerus clearly says Goku is POSSIBLY stronger than himself, remember who won that fight? Goku(MUI) did.

      Now on the subject of Baby, he was the strongest enemy AT THAT POINT remember when frieza was emperor of the universe but Beerus is was out there? Or when Majin Buu was the strongest in the Universe but again BEERUS WAS OUT THERE? Beyond the fact that FPS4 Goku destroyed Baby while FPS4 is destroyed by Omega Shenron. Whom was in turn destroyed by Gogeta.

      The long and short of it is Gogeta is infact stronger than MUI Goku(during ToP) and Jiren AND Beerus. This much was stated back in Goku Black Arc.

      Um...no. It was not stated back in the Goku Black Arc. Hell your entire statement comes down to being moronic if you just reread the last sentence. Gogeta stated stronger then beerus in the Goku Black Arc....wow....interesting. Anyone want to take the time to tear that apart?

      Also its directly stated Belmond is stronger then Beerus and jiren is stronger then Belmond. Not sure how we can argue with direct statements.  Also this entire argument comes down to a statement in Saikyo jump known for hyperbole that fans refuse to take as such. 

      Interesting to note after that match you reference between the gods, only Belmond didn't require healing either. But who knows, maybe everything in the serious stated and shown by Toriyama is wrong and some random writer for Saikyo is right, well and you.

      Oh brother, let’s break this down for you since you apparently like to drop in talk crap and know nothing. It wasn’t Gogeta if you used your brain you’d know it was Vegito also if you payed attention to the series you’d know Shin exclaims “He’s even stronger than Beerus!” And while Gogeta and Vegito May or may not be equal Gogeta is atleast close.

      Oh? It’s directly stated? Where is this direct statement? Oh right there isn’t one, it was Whis teasing Beerus at losing to Belmod in an ARM WRESTLING MATCH, this entire argument comes down to using the facts given.

      And here are the facts given: Goku beat Jiren yet Beerus still said he is POSSIBLY stronger than himself, which puts him and Jiren as stronger than Belmod(stated Jiren is stronger than Belmod) and POSSIBLY stronger than Beerus. Now that we’re done going over things you should know now let’s get to the new movie I hope you watched before commenting on a thread about a character officially introduced in this movie, Broly is stated by Goku to be POSSIBLY stronger than Beerus, this alone puts him at MUI Goku level and then we have the statement by the official magazine that actually is the same company that produces the manga and Toriyama has previously released comments through said magazine, and this magazine said that Broly is the strongest enemy that Goku and co have faced. Now we have statements putting them at least as equal then an official magazine stating that he is the strongest, either way Broly is at least equal to Goku(MUI) and Gogeta Blue absolutely dominated him, thusly Gogeta wins. If you have a counter point WITH PROOF let me know and I’ll tear it apart personally.

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    • Heartlesslove93 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Arm wrestle =/= fight

      In the manga, it wasn't Belmond that beat Beerus in arm wreslting but Quitela...so can you stop trying to refute Belmond with that yet. 

      And only Geene and Goku made the remarks that Beerus's blast might kill them. However, Belmonds attack against the other gods was taken as a serious attempt to try and kill them by atleast one other god as well, make the Beerus's feat thing mute. 

      Still at the end of the fight, the only god 100% unharmed was Belmond while the rest had tons of damage.

      There is no statement in the manga saying that Belmod is stronger than Beerus and the only reason he was unharmed is because he faked being knocked out while Beerus actually fought and was one of the last two standing among all the Destroyers.

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    • Ok. Two things. 1 Saikyo jump is known for Hyperbole. 2. The person making the statement is not the author or in an way creative control. 3. I didn't say it was Vegito... 4. Your rather cock sure for someone that just mixed up two other people's comments together. 5. In the manga Beerus doesn't make a mention of Goku's power un UI, just reread to make sure i was right. 6. In the manga, again, it wasn't Belmond that beat him in arm wrestling, funny how you all keep mentioning that when it wasn't him at all. Maybe i am the only one that reads the manga, idk. 7. We have no benchmark between Gogeta Blue and Goku UI except they both beat super powerful people, both of which may be stronger then Beerus (done arguing Jiren is stronger as poeple don't like facts).

      Seriously confused on the Vegito comment, wtf you talking about. Your literally the only person that mentioned Vegito at all. And officially Vegito and Gogeta are the same strength, so that is a rather moronic argument in itself. 

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      Heartlesslove93 wrote:


      NervousShipper wrote:
      Arm wrestle =/= fight
      In the manga, it wasn't Belmond that beat Beerus in arm wreslting but Quitela...so can you stop trying to refute Belmond with that yet. 

      And only Geene and Goku made the remarks that Beerus's blast might kill them. However, Belmonds attack against the other gods was taken as a serious attempt to try and kill them by atleast one other god as well, make the Beerus's feat thing mute. 

      Still at the end of the fight, the only god 100% unharmed was Belmond while the rest had tons of damage.

      There is no statement in the manga saying that Belmod is stronger than Beerus and the only reason he was unharmed is because he faked being knocked out while Beerus actually fought and was one of the last two standing among all the Destroyers.

      Im going to concede on the grounds you literally just stated yet another false hood. (Belmond directly took all the blast from the fox god, only god to be hit by another and show 0 signs of damage. He faked being knocked out after that, it wasn't all he did).  ​​​​​​

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    • How are you this confused, in the Goku Black arc Vegito was acknowledged to be stronger than Beerus you couldn’t read the manga if you missed this. In the manga again there is no statement that Belmod is stronger so what are you even on about? The only place there was a statement that Belmod was stronger than Beerus was in the anime after which we found out that it was an arm wrestling match, it’s not impossible to have multiple so perhaps he arm wrestled Quitela as well.

      What’re you talking about mixed comments together? Whatever it is it doesn’t matter. People actually do like facts, you don’t, Goku(MUI) is stated to be possibly stronger than Beerus and Broly is also stated to be possibly stronger than Beerus, Broly lost badly to Gogeta its not that hard to understand. So yes Gogeta is stronger than MUI Goku.

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    • Heartlesslove93 wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:

      Heartlesslove93 wrote:


      NervousShipper wrote:
      Arm wrestle =/= fight
      In the manga, it wasn't Belmond that beat Beerus in arm wreslting but Quitela...so can you stop trying to refute Belmond with that yet. 

      And only Geene and Goku made the remarks that Beerus's blast might kill them. However, Belmonds attack against the other gods was taken as a serious attempt to try and kill them by atleast one other god as well, make the Beerus's feat thing mute. 

      Still at the end of the fight, the only god 100% unharmed was Belmond while the rest had tons of damage.

      There is no statement in the manga saying that Belmod is stronger than Beerus and the only reason he was unharmed is because he faked being knocked out while Beerus actually fought and was one of the last two standing among all the Destroyers.

      Im going to concede on the grounds you literally just stated yet another false hood. (Belmond directly took all the blast from the fox god, only god to be hit by another and show 0 signs of damage. He faked being knocked out after that, it wasn't all he did).  ​​​​​​

      What falsehood? Stop saying random things and provide some proof, otherwise kindly buzz off.

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    • Who cares what is in DBS Manga and other sources if the official and cannon story is anime version? You cant argue about official story, using fanfiction. The facts are clear and deal with that:

      - Whis comfirmed that Jiren in his NORMAL mode - is similar level or stronger than GoD and he was still hiding his true strenght here(stated later by Goku, after Toppo elimination)

      - Jiren has broken his limits powering up much more against MUI Goku

      - Goku said that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus in movie, so how much it can be? 

      So at this point we arleady know that JIREN > BROLY>=BEERUS - this is a fact

      - MUI Goku defeated Limit Breaker Jiren, so he is not much but stronger than him

      Here it is safe to say that Broly is no match for MUI, Broly was also no match for Gogeta blue - we are not able to say who is stronger from this two, there is no evidence for that. It is wise to say that they have similar power levels(I would say that Gogeta could win 1 vs 1 battle due to MUI imitations, but this is only my personall speculation).

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    • We don’t have to go off of the manga, MUI Goku was far stronger than Jiren and Beerus said he is possibly stronger than himself, not he is definitely far outclassing himself. Then in the DBS:Broly movie Goku says Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus, the same statement. Gogeta bested Broly easily whom was around MUI Goku’s power and Gogeta had absolutely no problem, due to MUIs perfect dodge and counter I don’t think it’d be an absolute slaughter but Gogeta is definitely stronger.

      EDIT: Who said the anime was the official canon?

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      EDIT: Who said the anime was the official canon?

      Who erroneously said it wasn't?

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    • It was stated a couple times in the series that Beerus has knowledge of ultra istinct but hasn't mastered it. To say MUI goku is far stronger than beeus is stupid, and I really feel like he is being downplayed. For me, MUI Goku = Gogeta. Beerus, Jiren and Broly honestly are mixed around. Beerus' power has been jumbled around too much at this point and comparing him is going to be useless.

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    • Beerus' power is supposed to be "more than Goku can reach" until MUI. Plot/Storywise that's what his power always was.

      Edit: Because MUI is a level of power Goku cannot consciously reach. Gogeta is a level he and Vegeta can reach which is why it should be less than MUI Goku.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:

      EDIT: Who said the anime was the official canon?

      Who erroneously said it wasn't?

      I don’t know about erroneously but Toriyama did when he said Broly is brought into the official canon and the movie followed the manga not the anime.

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    • My arguement of Gogeta being stronger than MUI Goku does depend on the statement given on Broly's power, being that he's the most powerful enemy Goku has faced thus far. But...it is an official statement that was given. If it was hyperbole, then oh well.

      Still, I do believe that Gogeta is overall more powerful than MUI Goku, considering that just his Super Saiyan form grossly surpassed the full power of two Super Saiyan Blues, and his own Super Saiyan Blue form would be unfathomable levels above that, as well as both techniques of Goku and Vegeta along with their fighting potential being at his disposal.

      The final factor that allowed me to form this opinion was the fact that Gogeta Blue hardly tried when defeating Broly. It's made clear that he's leagues above Broly in that state, and we know that Broly is likely (I would say confirmed) is stronger than Beerus. That level of power is simply ridiculous.

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    • Jiren before he even awakened his hidden power was above the Gods of Destruction including Belmod who is stronger than Beerus. His own page has the sources. Broly is only MAYBE stronger than Beerus. Jiren IS stronger than Beerus.. before he even awakens his hidden power... So yeah. Jiren > Broly.

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    • Actually Belmod isn’t stronger than Beerus, the only “qualifying feat” was an arm wrestling match. And also Beerus said clearly that MUI Goku POSSIBLY surpased him, which is the same statement made about Broly.

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    • Here's the difference. Beerus said MUI Goku was perhaps more powerful in the Anime. Goku said Broly was possibly as powerful as Beerus in the Manga. Goku hasn't achieved a level of power higher than Beerus in the Manga because Anime MUI >>>> Manga MUI and Broly in the super movie is from the manga. So no, he's not as powerful as JIren.

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    • In the manga Jiren is still stronger than his destroyer and the destroyers must be roughly equal, MUI Goku surpassed Jiren then fell to match him as he wasn’t used to the form so Goku is still possibly stronger than Beerus. Same as Broly.

      On a side note does anyone remember when Beerus and other divine beings in DB(people who possess divine ki) were unaffected by normal Ki? I kinda liked that, seems it got retconned though.

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    • It was retconned.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      In the manga Jiren is still stronger than his destroyer and the destroyers must be roughly equal, MUI Goku surpassed Jiren then fell to match him as he wasn’t used to the form so Goku is still possibly stronger than Beerus. Same as Broly.

      On a side note does anyone remember when Beerus and other divine beings in DB(people who possess divine ki) were unaffected by normal Ki? I kinda liked that, seems it got retconned though.

      No, I believe it was only that they couldn't be sensed by normal beings.

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    • Ok, I've done some research and watched the movie and I kinda asked myself: Where are the SSJBKKX20 Goku and SSJB Royal Blue Vegeta? If this is happenining after ToP, why didn't they use them? Then, I started quick-researching....



      and finally found out that DBS Broly movie is actually canon to DBS manga aka Toriyama version and not anime version( until we see them in anime).Since, I am not familiar with manga that much, I figured out that we should split into two "canons" two groups like: Toei version and Toriyama version.

      Toei version is : 1. BoG anime arc - > RoF anime arc ->U6 anime arc -> Copy-Vegeta arc ->Black arc ->ToP arc

      Toriyama version is: 1.BoG movie(retconned in manga) - BoG manga arc ->RoF movie(retconned; but didn't happen in manga, it was retconned because Golden Frieza is not as strong as SSJB Goku in ToP) ->U6 manga arc -> ToP manga arc ->Broly movie( there won't be manga version of it since we're already on Galactic Patrol arc( I think that's the name, I know there is Galactic Prison and that's DBH manga/anime( which is BTW non canon because it's promotion for game) ->Galactic Patrol arc

      So there are two seperate entities for Goku,Vegeta etc now. 1. Toriyama version and 2. Toei version. Examples: Toriyama Beerus > Toei Beerus. Toriyama Beerus was fighting some GoDs and they even said that Beerus might've even killed them. Toei Beerus never had such a feat and it's implied that he'd be weaker than some GoDs,while Toriyama one is likely on the top. Toei Goku has SSJBKKX20 as highest( because UI is gone), while Toriyama Goku has PSSJB( Perfected SSJB) as highest( because UI is gone).

      But here's the catch: PSSJB > SSJB Goku(Toriyama) and PSSJB Vegeta > SSJB Vegeta( Toriyama), Also, in Toriyama version Vegeta can't go SSJB Royal, but he can go SSJB evolved which is > PSSJB.

      Now with fusions we currently in canon have: Toei Vegito and Toriyama Vegito and Gogeta. 

      When I said in the thread BA SSJB Vegito = Broly SSJB Gogeta) I was thinking about Toei versions of them(hypothetical Toei version of Gogeta).I wasn't comparing Toei Vegito and Toriyama Gogeta. Now, Toei version of Broly arc can likely happen and it's likely that Goku and Vegeta there would go SSJBXKK20 and SSJB Royal Blue( but BA Toei SSJB Vegito and Broly Toei SSJB Gogeta would be equal, but SSJBXKK20 Gogeta or Royal Blue SSJB Gogeta would beat him, Potara/Dance still stands FOR TOEI at least ( A(SSJB)+B(SSJBXKK20) at highest) x 100=Base Vegito(BA) and (A+B at equal( 2 SSJBs) x 100= Base Gogeta(Broly hypothetical Toei arc). But Gogeta would go SSJBKKX20 and Royal Blue which would demolish BA Toei Vegito. I don't know exact fusion for Toriyama versions,though.

      Now. 1.Toriyama Vegito BA vs Toei Vegito BA. It's been said that Toriyama PSSJB Vegito is around Beerus level.And Beerus Toriyama > Beerus Toei.However, Toei Vegito was never compared to Beerus, thus via powerscaling he's below that.

      2.Toriyama Gogeta. Now here's the catch, Gogeta that beat Beerus was actually SSJB evolved Gogeta. We all know that in ToP when Vegeta "broke his limits" he went SSJB evolved which is same look as SSJB unlike in Toei where it's changed, since this movie follows manga/Toriyama canon,it's actually SSJB evolved version of it. That means SSJB evolved Gogeta > SSJB Gogeta = Berserker Broly. That's why Goku said that Broly might've been stronger than Beerus. That means Toriyama's Broly =>(around) Beerus Toriyama > Beerus Toei.Now, if you think; Gogeta didn't go SSJB evolved because Goku doesn't have it, one word: SSJ3 Gotenks.

      So, in conclusion: when it comes to Gogeta/Broly vs Jiren,MUI, Beerus etc , we actually need to be specific if it's Toriyama or Toei versions of MUI,Jiren and Beerus.( BTW about Gogeta vs Vegito Toriyama version),they'd be equal now, but Toei hypothetical versions in Broly arc wouldn't be equal because SSJB Royal > SSJBKKX20 Goku.) Since we don't know how strong are Jiren and Goku in Toriyama version(or maybe I don't know since I don't follow manga/Toriyama as much as anime/Toei) and we can pinpoint how strong are they in Toei version, I'd say that  SSJB Gogeta Toriyama would lose to MUI Goku Toei(but it'd be tough, long fight), but SSJB evolved Gogeta would beat him.However between Gogeta evolved Blue(or just SSJB) Toriyama version vs MUI Goku Toriyama version, I have no idea. I can't scale him because I don't know how strong is Jiren in Toriyama version, maybe he could be >> Toei Jiren, who knows. Just to say if anyone thinks Broly movie Gogeta is also Toei version just to debunk why it's not: 1. Why did Toei retcon BoG and RoF movies and 2. Why didn't Goku and Vegeta go SSJBKKX20 and SSJB Royal and 3. Why did Vegeta go SSJG when he didn't fo ritual, he trained with Whis and gained SJBG and SSJB, he never gained SSJG, but in Toriyama he had SSJG since U6(meaning he did a ritual). But, what if Toei completely ignores Broly movie? Then, I am 90% sure that movie won't go under Toei canon becuase if it goes ,then it makes no sense for reasons above. Sorry for lenghty comment, because I wanted to redeem myself from my comments on here thinking Broly movie Gogeta/Broly are Toei version/ anime canon, while they are Toriyama version/manga canon.

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    • Wtfreal wrote:
      Who cares what is in DBS Manga and other sources if the official and cannon story is anime version? You cant argue about official story, using fanfiction. The facts are clear and deal with that:

      - Whis comfirmed that Jiren in his NORMAL mode - is similar level or stronger than GoD and he was still hiding his true strenght here(stated later by Goku, after Toppo elimination)

      - Jiren has broken his limits powering up much more against MUI Goku

      - Goku said that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus in movie, so how much it can be? 

      So at this point we arleady know that JIREN > BROLY>=BEERUS - this is a fact

      - MUI Goku defeated Limit Breaker Jiren, so he is not much but stronger than him

      Here it is safe to say that Broly is no match for MUI, Broly was also no match for Gogeta blue - we are not able to say who is stronger from this two, there is no evidence for that. It is wise to say that they have similar power levels(I would say that Gogeta could win 1 vs 1 battle due to MUI imitations, but this is only my personall speculation).

      If you say that anime is only canon and manga is not canon... that means Gogeta and Broly so far are not canon because they didn't appear in anime yet. They appeared in movie which follows manga aka Toriyama version.So in other words: Who cares about DBS Broly movie. 

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    • Well, Broly is stronger then Jiren, Broly tanked a hit from SSJG Vegeta in base, not even fazed. I think SSJ Gogeta > Mui Goku.

      Oh and I think somewhere it said that Broly was their strongest enemy yet, Jiren was still an enemy.

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    • CMButch wrote:
      Ok, I've done some research and watched the movie and I kinda asked myself: Where are the SSJBKKX20 Goku and SSJB Royal Blue Vegeta? If this is happenining after ToP, why didn't they use them? Then, I started quick-researching....


      and finally found out that DBS Broly movie is actually canon to DBS manga aka Toriyama version and not anime version( until we see them in anime).Since, I am not familiar with manga that much, I figured out that we should split into two "canons" two groups like: Toei version and Toriyama version.

      Toei version is : 1. BoG anime arc - > RoF anime arc ->U6 anime arc -> Copy-Vegeta arc ->Black arc ->ToP arc

      Toriyama version is: 1.BoG movie(retconned in manga) - BoG manga arc ->RoF movie(retconned; but didn't happen in manga, it was retconned because Golden Frieza is not as strong as SSJB Goku in ToP) ->U6 manga arc -> ToP manga arc ->Broly movie( there won't be manga version of it since we're already on Galactic Patrol arc( I think that's the name, I know there is Galactic Prison and that's DBH manga/anime( which is BTW non canon because it's promotion for game) ->Galactic Patrol arc

      So there are two seperate entities for Goku,Vegeta etc now. 1. Toriyama version and 2. Toei version. Examples: Toriyama Beerus > Toei Beerus. Toriyama Beerus was fighting some GoDs and they even said that Beerus might've even killed them. Toei Beerus never had such a feat and it's implied that he'd be weaker than some GoDs,while Toriyama one is likely on the top. Toei Goku has SSJBKKX20 as highest( because UI is gone), while Toriyama Goku has PSSJB( Perfected SSJB) as highest( because UI is gone).

      But here's the catch: PSSJB > SSJB Goku(Toriyama) and PSSJB Vegeta > SSJB Vegeta( Toriyama), Also, in Toriyama version Vegeta can't go SSJB Royal, but he can go SSJB evolved which is > PSSJB.

      Now with fusions we currently in canon have: Toei Vegito and Toriyama Vegito and Gogeta. 

      When I said in the thread BA SSJB Vegito = Broly SSJB Gogeta) I was thinking about Toei versions of them(hypothetical Toei version of Gogeta).I wasn't comparing Toei Vegito and Toriyama Gogeta. Now, Toei version of Broly arc can likely happen and it's likely that Goku and Vegeta there would go SSJBXKK20 and SSJB Royal Blue( but BA Toei SSJB Vegito and Broly Toei SSJB Gogeta would be equal, but SSJBXKK20 Gogeta or Royal Blue SSJB Gogeta would beat him, Potara/Dance still stands FOR TOEI at least ( A(SSJB)+B(SSJBXKK20) at highest) x 100=Base Vegito(BA) and (A+B at equal( 2 SSJBs) x 100= Base Gogeta(Broly hypothetical Toei arc). But Gogeta would go SSJBKKX20 and Royal Blue which would demolish BA Toei Vegito. I don't know exact fusion for Toriyama versions,though.

      Now. 1.Toriyama Vegito BA vs Toei Vegito BA. It's been said that Toriyama PSSJB Vegito is around Beerus level.And Beerus Toriyama > Beerus Toei.However, Toei Vegito was never compared to Beerus, thus via powerscaling he's below that.

      2.Toriyama Gogeta. Now here's the catch, Gogeta that beat Beerus was actually SSJB evolved Gogeta. We all know that in ToP when Vegeta "broke his limits" he went SSJB evolved which is same look as SSJB unlike in Toei where it's changed, since this movie follows manga/Toriyama canon,it's actually SSJB evolved version of it. That means SSJB evolved Gogeta > SSJB Gogeta = Berserker Broly. That's why Goku said that Broly might've been stronger than Beerus. That means Toriyama's Broly =>(around) Beerus Toriyama > Beerus Toei.Now, if you think; Gogeta didn't go SSJB evolved because Goku doesn't have it, one word: SSJ3 Gotenks.

      So, in conclusion: when it comes to Gogeta/Broly vs Jiren,MUI, Beerus etc , we actually need to be specific if it's Toriyama or Toei versions of MUI,Jiren and Beerus.( BTW about Gogeta vs Vegito Toriyama version),they'd be equal now, but Toei hypothetical versions in Broly arc wouldn't be equal because SSJB Royal > SSJBKKX20 Goku.) Since we don't know how strong are Jiren and Goku in Toriyama version(or maybe I don't know since I don't follow manga/Toriyama as much as anime/Toei) and we can pinpoint how strong are they in Toei version, I'd say that  SSJB Gogeta Toriyama would lose to MUI Goku Toei(but it'd be tough, long fight), but SSJB evolved Gogeta would beat him.However between Gogeta evolved Blue(or just SSJB) Toriyama version vs MUI Goku Toriyama version, I have no idea. I can't scale him because I don't know how strong is Jiren in Toriyama version, maybe he could be >> Toei Jiren, who knows. Just to say if anyone thinks Broly movie Gogeta is also Toei version just to debunk why it's not: 1. Why did Toei retcon BoG and RoF movies and 2. Why didn't Goku and Vegeta go SSJBKKX20 and SSJB Royal and 3. Why did Vegeta go SSJG when he didn't fo ritual, he trained with Whis and gained SJBG and SSJB, he never gained SSJG, but in Toriyama he had SSJG since U6(meaning he did a ritual). But, what if Toei completely ignores Broly movie? Then, I am 90% sure that movie won't go under Toei canon becuase if it goes ,then it makes no sense for reasons above. Sorry for lenghty comment, because I wanted to redeem myself from my comments on here thinking Broly movie Gogeta/Broly are Toei version/ anime canon, while they are Toriyama version/manga canon.

      You do realise that Akira did not actually continue the manga nor the anime, he was just helping. It is actually nice when royal blue or SSJBKK was not there, sh** got real when SSJB joined the party, that is what I felt. SSJBKK or SSB Royal were made by toei, SSJG, SSJB, UI omen/Mui were all made by Akira, or rather suggested them. Akira did have the brains to not incude both of these forms.

      Also, Gogeta and Vegito can go UI, If Vegito managed to go SSBKK i DBH, despite Vegeta not having it, then I am sure Gogeta can.

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    • Wtfreal wrote:
      What the hell, where you got this numbers and powers scales? Its just stupid talking, from the start of Super there is no powerscalling at all it ended with DBZ. We have totally twisted levels of power. Transformation in ssj and some multipliers mean nothing now. 

      At first, beerus used 80% of its power against SSG, later 20x kaioken ssgss, was still weaker than beerus and many more times weaker than Jiren. Then Goku is going for MUI and he is many times stronger than jiren. Mathematics does not work in dbs, the only thing you can say is in the dialogues of the character and what we see. Based on that we know:

      - Goku MUI is far stronger than any God of destruction (explanation: base Jiren was stronger than god of destruction, Limit breaker Jiren was even more strong, and still he got destroyed by MUI Goku. So MUI Go ku > all other characters except angels)

      - In the end of DBS: Broly, Goku said that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus(so he is not far stronger than Beerus - what is reasonable)

      - Gogeta blue, with little effort defeated Broly at his full power in the movie



      Summarizing these facts, we can conclude that MUI Goku and Gogeta blue are equal, its impossible to say who is clearly stronger.

      Beerus < Full Power Broly = Full Power Jiren < Limit Breaker Jiren < MUI Goku = Gogeta blue < angels

      • note: I do not take the manga into account because it is too different from the anime, and anime is primary cannon art. 

      Ugh, Beerus said that he used 70% in Bog, not the anime.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      You do realise that Akira did not actually continue the manga nor the anime, he was just helping. It is actually nice when royal blue or SSJBKK was not there, sh** got real when SSJB joined the party, that is what I felt. SSJBKK or SSB Royal were made by toei, SSJG, SSJB, UI omen/Mui were all made by Akira, or rather suggested them. Akira did have the brains to not incude both of these forms.

      Toyotaro creates manga based on Akira's scripts and Akira reviews them, so Toyotaro can't post anything without Akira's permission. That makes manga Akira's "creation". While in anime Akira has almost no interaction, making anime Toei's "creation". So two seperate entities.That's why we don't see SSJBKKX20 and Royal Blue in manga and we don't see PSSJB and SSJB evolved in anime.

      That still doesn't change that fact that Broly movie is manga continuity(and not anime) and that manga and anime are different in power, scaling etc.I've read somewhere that this movie is even like not even manga nor anime continuity, which would be far more confusing that's why the best bet is stick it with manga continuity and waiting for Toei's version of it( which will be different than movie's like RoF and BoG are).

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    • "Gogeta and Vegito can go UI, If Vegito managed to go SSBKK i DBH, despite Vegeta not having it, then I am sure Gogeta can."

      They would go UI in ToP saga becuase Goku had that and BTW Vegito wouldn't go UI, because Vegeta doesn't have it, while Gogeta would because Gotenks could go SSJ3 without both guys having SSJ3.

      DBH is non canon, it's not like Toei and Toyotaro's versions which are both canon. 

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    • Gogeta is a fusion of the two beings, he attains their experiences and abilities. The issue is he, like Goku, wouldn’t know how to activate it at will.

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    • CMButch wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      You do realise that Akira did not actually continue the manga nor the anime, he was just helping. It is actually nice when royal blue or SSJBKK was not there, sh** got real when SSJB joined the party, that is what I felt. SSJBKK or SSB Royal were made by toei, SSJG, SSJB, UI omen/Mui were all made by Akira, or rather suggested them. Akira did have the brains to not incude both of these forms.

      Toyotaro creates manga based on Akira's scripts and Akira reviews them, so Toyotaro can't post anything without Akira's permission. That makes manga Akira's "creation". While in anime Akira has almost no interaction, making anime Toei's "creation". So two seperate entities.That's why we don't see SSJBKKX20 and Royal Blue in manga and we don't see PSSJB and SSJB evolved in anime.

      That still doesn't change that fact that Broly movie is manga continuity(and not anime) and that manga and anime are different in power, scaling etc.I've read somewhere that this movie is even like not even manga nor anime continuity, which would be far more confusing that's why the best bet is stick it with manga continuity and waiting for Toei's version of it( which will be different than movie's like RoF and BoG are).

      I do not think that Toei will make a version of it, then that would mean that DBS Broly would be anime and manga continuity. I think the real reason why Toei remade BoG is because if they left it off on RoF, kids would have 0 idea what this purple cat is doing, since DBS is really popular, Toei will not need to make a version of it, otherwise it will be terrible.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      I do not think that Toei will make a version of it, then that would mean that DBS Broly would be anime and manga continuity. I think the real reason why Toei remade BoG is because if they left it off on RoF, kids would have 0 idea what this purple cat is doing, since DBS is really popular, Toei will not need to make a version of it, otherwise it will be terrible.

      If they don't make anime version of it then it'd be make no sense: 1. Why didn't Goku and Vegeta go SSJBKKX20 and SSJB Royal respectively against Broly.Why does Vegeta have SSJG when he didn't do ritual, he got God power(SJBG) from training with Whis and put SSJ into it making it SSJB.

      But, they could've just continued it with U6 arc... like BoG movie -> RoF movie - >U6 arc -> Copy-Vegeta arc ->BA arc etc.I don't think those kids would've wondered who Beerus was when they watched BoG movie. But problem is Toei retconned RoF, not just BoG. In RoF, laser almost killed Base Goku in movie it was SSJB Goku. Then, fights with Gohan, Piccolo vs Tagoma etc were different.When they called Goku and Vegeta, all of them powered up IIRC, but in anime Gohan only did it.

      I think if they don't do their own Broly arc, that means Broly won't be canon in TOEI's canon( I said if they leave it like in movie it'd be cause continuity problems). That doesn't mean Broly won't be canon in Akira's work( hell some people believe manga > anime in canon). However, what could happen is if they don't make their own Broly movie version but instead follow manga. That would mean: anime's BoG, RoF, U6, BA and ToP arcs are not canon... which means in anime( in Galactic Patrol saga and above/beyond) we won't see SSJBKKX20, SSJB Royal, because they don't exist.Then, we'd have one powerscaling which is manga. Honestly, I wouldn't mind that. 

      Why would it be terrible? You don't know that. Maybe new anime will have blood, emotion, intensity, "dark" moments like DBZ, which makes it automatically better than Broly movie and entirety of DBS.

      EDIT: I don't see them, leaving Broly "arc" as it is in movie as manga/anime continuity and then continue doing Galactic Patrol saga and beyond differently in anime which is stupid and makes no sense. Like, if you leave Broly as it is, then continue with manga's continuity. 

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    • CMButch wrote:
      MonzyMonz wrote:

      I do not think that Toei will make a version of it, then that would mean that DBS Broly would be anime and manga continuity. I think the real reason why Toei remade BoG is because if they left it off on RoF, kids would have 0 idea what this purple cat is doing, since DBS is really popular, Toei will not need to make a version of it, otherwise it will be terrible.

      If they don't make anime version of it then it'd be make no sense: 1. Why didn't Goku and Vegeta go SSJBKKX20 and SSJB Royal respectively against Broly.Why does Vegeta have SSJG when he didn't do ritual, he got God power(SJBG) from training with Whis and put SSJ into it making it SSJB.

      But, they could've just continued it with U6 arc... like BoG movie -> RoF movie - >U6 arc -> Copy-Vegeta arc ->BA arc etc.I don't think those kids would've wondered who Beerus was when they watched BoG movie. But problem is Toei retconned RoF, not just BoG. In RoF, laser almost killed Base Goku in movie it was SSJB Goku. Then, fights with Gohan, Piccolo vs Tagoma etc were different.When they called Goku and Vegeta, all of them powered up IIRC, but in anime Gohan only did it.

      I think if they don't do their own Broly arc, that means Broly won't be canon in TOEI's canon( I said if they leave it like in movie it'd be cause continuity problems). That doesn't mean Broly won't be canon in Akira's work( hell some people believe manga > anime in canon). However, what could happen is if they don't make their own Broly movie version but instead follow manga. That would mean: anime's BoG, RoF, U6, BA and ToP arcs are not canon... which means in anime( in Galactic Patrol saga and above/beyond) we won't see SSJBKKX20, SSJB Royal, because they don't exist.Then, we'd have one powerscaling which is manga. Honestly, I wouldn't mind that. 

      Why would it be terrible? You don't know that. Maybe new anime will have blood, emotion, intensity, "dark" moments like DBZ, which makes it automatically better than Broly movie and entirety of DBS.

      EDIT: I don't see them, leaving Broly "arc" as it is in movie as manga/anime continuity and then continue doing Galactic Patrol saga and beyond differently in anime which is stupid and makes no sense. Like, if you leave Broly as it is, then continue with manga's continuity. 

      This is all from Akiras point of view, besides, it might still be canon, for example, Goku could not go Kaioken in SSJB because he already used it loads of times, vegeta can not go Royal Blue because he can only do it when he is in huge danger. I do not think Mastered SSJB was in there, it is like saying Trunks with the blue hair instead of purple.

      Toei might debunk some information on DBS Broly, the animation would be terrible too.

      Also, if they are doing the Galatic Patrol saga then that would mean Toei would make a DBS Broly.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      This is all from Akiras point of view, besides, it might still be canon, for example, Goku could not go Kaioken in SSJB because he already used it loads of times, vegeta can not go Royal Blue because he can only do it when he is in huge danger. I do not think Mastered SSJB was in there, it is like saying Trunks with the blue hair instead of purple.

      Toei might debunk some information on DBS Broly, the animation would be terrible too.

      Also, if they are doing the Galatic Patrol saga then that would mean Toei would make a DBS Broly.

      "Becuase he already used it loads of times and " not huge danger" are weak excuses. About not huge danger.. Broly was one of the toughest guys they fought, how was he not huge danger? Lol. 

      You do realize that Mastered/Perfected SSJB only exists in Manga? You can check it out, it literally never happened in anime. There's also MSSJB evolved stated that Vegeta only unlocked which is probably same level as Royal Blue in anime( but we don't know that because there's no GoD Top in manga to scale him). And how does evolved Vegeta look like? Newsflash.. not like in anime, it' same look as SSJB. So yes Gogeta could've easily used SSJB evolved in fight with Broly because movie follows manga and not anime.So that could've been: SSJB Gogeta, PSSJB Gogeta or PSSJB evolved Gogeta. All of 3 states exist in manga and all look same. Personally, I don't think that is PSSJB evolved Gogeta, but's PSSJB Gogeta that beat Broly. BTW, in manga it is: PSSJB > SSJB and PSSJB evolved >>> PSSJB. Jiren even said that PSSJB evolved is stronger than PSSJB Kaioken state Goku.(yep in manga too).

      We don't know if animation would be awful,though until we see it, it could be good. Also, that didn't stop them to retcon RoF and BoG movies despite going their route( anime is truer to movies than manga is - but still anime had retcons). Money talks, bro. They will retcon Broly movie into their own version( so there will changes) to go with their continuity and to get more money from it. So, if that comes expect KKX20 Goku and Royal Blue Vegeta.I also think they will retcon Broly aswell, so they won't make him stronger than anime Jiren nor anime Beerus as Akira Toriyama imples that Broly > manga Jiren and manga Beerus.

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    • CMButch wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      This is all from Akiras point of view, besides, it might still be canon, for example, Goku could not go Kaioken in SSJB because he already used it loads of times, vegeta can not go Royal Blue because he can only do it when he is in huge danger. I do not think Mastered SSJB was in there, it is like saying Trunks with the blue hair instead of purple.

      Toei might debunk some information on DBS Broly, the animation would be terrible too.

      Also, if they are doing the Galatic Patrol saga then that would mean Toei would make a DBS Broly.

      "Becuase he already used it loads of times and " not huge danger" are weak excuses. About not huge danger.. Broly was one of the toughest guys they fought, how was he not huge danger? Lol. 

      You do realize that Mastered/Perfected SSJB only exists in Manga? You can check it out, it literally never happened in anime. There's also MSSJB evolved stated that Vegeta only unlocked which is probably same level as Royal Blue in anime( but we don't know that because there's no GoD Top in manga to scale him). And how does evolved Vegeta look like? Newsflash.. not like in anime, it' same look as SSJB. So yes Gogeta could've easily used SSJB evolved in fight with Broly because movie follows manga and not anime.So that could've been: SSJB Gogeta, PSSJB Gogeta or PSSJB evolved Gogeta. All of 3 states exist in manga and all look same. Personally, I don't think that is PSSJB evolved Gogeta, but's PSSJB Gogeta that beat Broly. BTW, in manga it is: PSSJB > SSJB and PSSJB evolved >>> PSSJB. Jiren even said that PSSJB evolved is stronger than PSSJB Kaioken state Goku.(yep in manga too).

      We don't know if animation would be awful,though until we see it, it could be good. Also, that didn't stop them to retcon RoF and BoG movies despite going their route( anime is truer to movies than manga is - but still anime had retcons). Money talks, bro. They will retcon Broly movie into their own version( so there will changes) to go with their continuity and to get more money from it. So, if that comes expect KKX20 Goku and Royal Blue Vegeta.I also think they will retcon Broly aswell, so they won't make him stronger than anime Jiren nor anime Beerus as Akira Toriyama imples that Broly > manga Jiren and manga Beerus.

      Broly was not huge danger, if he was going to goddam destroy the universe THEN Vegeta might go Royal Blue, and Goku might go UI buttt that will be boring, and yeah I know MSSB only exists in the manga, you said it was a manga continuity. Let’s just see what Toei will do, I do hope they will not retcon these, I like the movie better without SSBKK or Royal Blue, we will just see in the future.

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    • Vegeta won't use Blue Evolution, simply because of pride.. he wants to be stronger than Goku in the same form.. SSBlue. Now if Goku could use Super Saiyan White freely, then Vegeta would use Blue Evolution more.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Vegeta won't use Blue Evolution, simply because of pride.. he wants to be stronger than Goku in the same form.. SSBlue. Now if Goku could use Super Saiyan White freely, then Vegeta would use Blue Evolution more.

      SSJW? You mean Ultra Instinct. Also, it's not even a Saiyan transformation.

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    • Dude, Idgaf.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Dude, Idgaf.

      Ease up on the language there.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Broly was not huge danger, if he was going to goddam destroy the universe THEN Vegeta might go Royal Blue, and Goku might go UI buttt that will be boring, and yeah I know MSSB only exists in the manga, you said it was a manga continuity. Let’s just see what Toei will do, I do hope they will not retcon these, I like the movie better without SSBKK or Royal Blue, we will just see in the future.

      He was, if he was on GoD  level at least then yes, huge danger.My bet is that they will make their own version/retcon it not just because of anime continuity but money too. I mean RoF movie was released in like March/April 2015 and RoF saga was made in like August/September 2015, so they sold stuff when movie came out and sold stuff when anime came out in same year, I don't see why wouldn't they make their own version in next year or so( because I don't think new DB series will arrive this year).

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    • Idgaf isn't calling anybody names and there is no rule saying I can't say that. Hop off.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Idgaf isn't calling anybody names and there is no rule saying I can't say that. Hop off.

      I'm aware you weren't calling anyone names, but you should be aware of what that means. I would've gone with Idgad instead. You wouldn't want to get kicked off another wiki, don't you?

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      Dude, Idgaf.
      Ease up on the language there.

      wtf?

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    • Wouldn’t it be more Super Saiyan Silver?

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    • Man, if it was an issue it would say so in the rules, but it doesn't. So go bother somebody else.

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    • Do you need some warm milk and a nice nap, Flat?

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    • You could do yourself a favor, and hop off too.. Nervous kiddo.

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    • CMButch wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Broly was not huge danger, if he was going to goddam destroy the universe THEN Vegeta might go Royal Blue, and Goku might go UI buttt that will be boring, and yeah I know MSSB only exists in the manga, you said it was a manga continuity. Let’s just see what Toei will do, I do hope they will not retcon these, I like the movie better without SSBKK or Royal Blue, we will just see in the future.

      He was, if he was on GoD  level at least then yes, huge danger.My bet is that they will make their own version/retcon it not just because of anime continuity but money too. I mean RoF movie was released in like March/April 2015 and RoF saga was made in like August/September 2015, so they sold stuff when movie came out and sold stuff when anime came out in same year, I don't see why wouldn't they make their own version in next year or so( because I don't think new DB series will arrive this year).

      I bet £250,000 that they won’t.

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    • FlatZone wrote: You could do yourself a favor, and hop off too.. Nervous kiddo.

      Oh no, this thread is gonna start into a war zone, getting my weapons up.

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    • No it's not. Nervous likes to be rude and condescending to others and the kid likes to initiate drama. So I told him to hop off, another words go bother somebody else. Unless somebody comes at me with condescending or rude remarks I won't do the same. You haven't done that here so you're cool.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      the kid

      rude and condescending

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      FlatZone wrote: You could do yourself a favor, and hop off too.. Nervous kiddo.

      Oh no, this thread is gonna start into a war zone, getting my weapons up.

      Yeah, Monzy, you're fine.

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    • Why don’t we all agree to be friends that like DB? Accept each other’s differences and what not, if you’re wrong accept it and move on, if not vice versa. But constantly trying to aggravate and kill one another is rather ridiculous, just be cool.

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    • No, I only respond in kind. Your attitudes reflect the responses you get from me. Don't like it? Change your attitudes.

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    • You could be a little nicer though.

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    • I am as nice as other users are nice to me.

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    • So was this thread a blip on the radar?

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    • FlatZone wrote: I am as nice as other users are nice to me.

      I like your username. Saskatchewan is my favourite province in Canada :)

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    • Everyone you are all cool ok? and now lets go back to the topic: Mui Goku vs Gogeta.

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    • Gogeta wins.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Gogeta wins.

      Anime UI > Manga UI

      ​​​​​​​I'm going to say Anime UI > Manga Gogeta

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    • Anime UI was only possibly stronger than Beerus, same thing for the manga(Jiren was acknowledged as stronger than his Destroyer and the destroyers should be roughly equal). What makes you say Anime UI is stronger? On the sideyist of side notes, wouldn’t Anime Gogeta be stronger than manga Gogeta in that case?

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    • No because UI doesn't increase base and Gogeta hasn't shown he's capable of transforming

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Anime UI was only possibly stronger than Beerus, same thing for the manga(Jiren was acknowledged as stronger than his Destroyer and the destroyers should be roughly equal). What makes you say Anime UI is stronger? On the sideyist of side notes, wouldn’t Anime Gogeta be stronger than manga Gogeta in that case?

      No.. manga Beerus was destroying like 5-6 GoDs at same time, some even said he would kill them, based on that I'd say manga Beerus > manga MUI > Manga Jiren >manga Belmod and some GoDs too.

      If Shin said( BTW all of this I am talking about manga version and movie follows manga) that BA PSSJB Vegito is GoD level( per say Belmod, Geene), that means PSSJB Gogeta is stronger than him.So, we could say PSSJB Gogeta=Beerus > MUI Goku > BA PSSJB Vegito. But, I'd say we don't know becuase we don't have clear picture of it unlike we have in anime; sort of. As of Gogeta vs anime stuff, we have to establish if manga MUI is stronger than anime's, if manga Jiren > anime's, hell even manga Beerus' > anime's... which we can but after we like "detail-y" look into that( I mean we're looking "detail-y" it enough on anime vs anime stuff, let alone what clustermess would manga vs anime).Personally, I don't care or know( nor have time) about anime vs manga stuff. So, I will just look into these characters from same continuity aka manga vs manga / anime vs anime and will put continuity so to not get bamboozled, since we still don't have anime Gogeta and Broly, I will hold their horses back for now, until we get anime version of it)

      TL:DR: I'd say PSSJB Gogeta(manga) =>/> MUI Goku(manga). I'd say it's be close and tough fight but Gogeta wins.But, since PSSJB>SSJB, I'd say SSJB Gogeta would lose. 

      Edit: We wouldn't know who would be stronger manga vs anime Gogeta because we don't know are PSSJB and SSJB evolved Goku/Vegeta stronger than Royal and SSJBKKX20 Goku/Vegeta( and because Gogeta/Broly didn't happen in anime yet), it'd be hard to judge, not to forget almost everything different in Toei and Toriyama, like different scaling, multipliers, hell even I'd say different fusion multipliers. 

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    • Do you guys have any proof that the manga characters are weaker? Just because in the manga it did not say SSJG Goku and Beerus would destroy the universe accidentally does not mean that they are like, galaxy tier.

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    • No, they have no proof. In fact they don't seem to understand that the whole galaxy destruction thing was obviously retconned.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      No, they have no proof. In fact they don't seem to understand that the whole galaxy destruction thing was obviously retconned.

      Who was condescending to you recently in this topic that made you condescending back?

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    • MonzyMonz wrote: Do you guys have any proof that the manga characters are weaker? Just because in the manga it did not say SSJG Goku and Beerus would destroy the universe accidentally does not mean that they are like, galaxy tier.

      I keep saying that the manga characters aren’t weaker. Jiren was still stronger than his Destroyer and MUI Goku was still stronger than him. Which apparently is just possibly stronger than Beerus, there isn’t any difference some people just have an issue with Gogeta being stronger than Jiren and MUI, and with Broly being the as strong at least.

      EDIT: Fused Zamasu was weaker in the manga as he didn’t use that Kai form and you could see he gave Vegito far more trouble in the anime because of the grotesque form.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote: Do you guys have any proof that the manga characters are weaker? Just because in the manga it did not say SSJG Goku and Beerus would destroy the universe accidentally does not mean that they are like, galaxy tier.

      I keep saying that the manga characters aren’t weaker. Jiren was still stronger than his Destroyer and MUI Goku was still stronger than him. Which apparently is just possibly stronger than Beerus, there isn’t any difference some people just have an issue with Gogeta being stronger than Jiren and MUI, and with Broly being the as strong at least. EDIT: Fused Zamasu was weaker in the manga as he didn’t use that Kai form and you could see he gave Vegito far more trouble in the anime because of the grotesque form.

      Yeah and Beerus in the manga is stronger.

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    • Hey, first post, hopefully I don't sound like a dumbass.

      To my understanding of it, MUI is a transformation that focuses on mainly boosting reaction time/speed, in that the body can move without consciously thinking to counteract attacks. However, it doesn't have as much of a focus on damage dealing. Even though it's a pretty powerful form due to the dodge ability, and seems to increase the strength of Goku's attacks, I don't think MUI is such an increase to Goku's previous form, Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken, as SSJBKK is to Super Saiyan Blue in terms of damage dealing.

      However, the Metamoran Fusion has been shown to undoubtedly be stronger than either of the fighters in the Fusion. Assuming Gogeta Blue > SSJBKK Goku in terms of damage, Gogeta would likely be 'stronger' than MUI Goku, but he wouldn't be able to land a hit on him.

      Unless he just waited for MUI to run out.

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    • Did you not see MUI Goku smacking Jiren around like a rag doll?

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    • Second post. Dumbass-level accidentally achieved.

      First off, Jiren, although being defeated by the MUI form, was still doing pretty good, especially when he went Burning Ultimate Warrior.

      Second, I did acknowledge that MUI Goku had a power increase from SSJBKK, but I don't think it'd be a larger power increase than Metamoran Fusion SSJB, or stronger than whatever form Goku's going to obtain next as part of the Super Saiyan line, like "Super Saiyan Orange with new sparkly effects."

      Third, MUI only lasts for a minute. MUI Goku would have to wear down and beat Gogeta Blue before time runs out. Gogeta would have plenty of time to wait for MUI Goku to lose his form, then beat him before their own fusion ended.

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    • GreatArgonLizard wrote: Hey, first post, hopefully I don't sound like a dumbass.

      You don’t.

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    • GreatArgonLizard wrote:
      Second post. Dumbass-level accidentally achieved.

      First off, Jiren, although being defeated by the MUI form, was still doing pretty good, especially when he went Burning Ultimate Warrior.

      Second, I did acknowledge that MUI Goku had a power increase from SSJBKK, but I don't think it'd be a larger power increase than Metamoran Fusion SSJB, or stronger than whatever form Goku's going to obtain next as part of the Super Saiyan line, like "Super Saiyan Orange with new sparkly effects."

      Third, MUI only lasts for a minute. MUI Goku would have to wear down and beat Gogeta Blue before time runs out. Gogeta would have plenty of time to wait for MUI Goku to lose his form, then beat him before their own fusion ended.

      First thing, you are NOT an idiot, second, Jiren actually manged to land hits on MUI Goku, I am pretty sure Gogeta would still tore MUI Goku. Mui does give you a huge power-up, it is just that Auto-dodge comes with it aswell.

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    • Summary for the volume 7 states a god of destruction can't measure up to Jiren. So that would seem to add some credence to the fact, in the Manga, it includes them all. 

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    • dragonball heroes has shown ultra instinct goku and a fusion of goku and vegeta separately fighting against Cumber. both fusions of a Super saiyan blue vegito with kaioken and a ss4 vegito could not beat him. only ultra instinct could. 

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    • unknown at the moment. heroes is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with scaling in canon. even then, in the main heroes canon, all vegitos and UI goku beat cumber. so even then there isnt much to scale. we can only go by the fact that broly is probably stronger than beerus, and gogeta pretty much no-diffed him, and that STILL doesnt tell us much. cause we dont know if UI Goku and LB jiren can stomp beerus. 

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    • what makes it even more difficult is that base gogeta is freaking stronger than ssb goku and vegeta, so MUI could have a ridiculous mutltiplier, and it wouldnt guarantee a win.

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    • Ovrhide wrote:
      what makes it even more difficult is that base gogeta is freaking stronger than ssb goku and vegeta, so MUI could have a ridiculous mutltiplier, and it wouldnt guarantee a win.

      base Gogeta=(ssb Goku+ssb Vegeta) *10=20* ssb Goku

      ssj Gogeta= base Gogeta *50= 1000* ssb Goku

      ssj3 Gogeta = base gogeta *400= 8000 * ssb Goku

      ssg Gogeta= ssj3 Gogeta *1000

      ssb Gogeta= ssg Gogeta *50=50*1000*8000 *ssb Goku



      Now how much boost can Ui give to match Gogeta?

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    • The One Who Speaks Like A Guy
      The One Who Speaks Like A Guy removed this reply because:
      not ood
      14:08, April 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Gogeta wins.

      Citation needed.

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    • Tasanox wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      Gogeta wins.

      Citation needed.

      Citation Needed.

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    • Citation needed as a response to citation needed makes no sense. That's like responding to a sneeze with "achoo"

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Citation needed as a response to citation needed makes no sense. That's like responding to a sneeze with "achoo"

      Yet people do it all the time, seriously, I’ve seen one person sneeze then another sneeze right after them. Weird.

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    • Except that I meant saying the word achoo.


      Edit: Which I thought was pretty clear from the fact that I didn't say "and then sneezing in response".

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    • Spoiler Alert:We've got real good grammar teachers here.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Except that I meant saying the word achoo.


      Edit: Which I thought was pretty clear from the fact that I didn't say "and then sneezing in response".

      But achoo isn’t even a word...

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    • It's an onomatopoeia. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      It's an onomatopoeia. 

      Spot the techniques used.

      Broly: Super is like, a million times better then the older one. I remember when people thought the older one was badass. Do you agree? Remember when Beerus was like, KABOOM! And Zamasu was rekt. Who does not like Broly: Super? He is cool, amazing and badass. But broly is still filled with outrageousness. Also Mr Satan is pretty ugly. Did you spot the techniques?

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    • What the hell does what you quoted have to do with what you responded?

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    • He was saying spot what words and stuff he was using since you have been in this thread.

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    • imma just gonna leave this here and watch the fanboys debate https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6817643

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    • I think you have the wrong thread, this is about UI Goku vs Gogeta.

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    • well it does say "power that surpasses a god of destuction"for Mui Goku so. and thats evidence for his side

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    • that merely means that Mui surpasses GoDs power.But what if the GoD was to use UI too.Then sorry goku but you do not surpass a GoD anymore.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:
      well it does say "power that surpasses a god of destuction"for Mui Goku so. and thats evidence for his side

      what proof? it's a screenshotted note and I don't see who wrote it or why a comicvine post should sway anyone.

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    • Beerus uses imperfect UI, it is part of his abilities so when they refer to Beerus power they are including his own imperfect UI usage. Goku with UI - Sign may be stronger than Beerus with imperfect UI. Shin who has and can sense God Ki says that SSB Vegito is stronger than Beerus. Newest information says Gogeta and Vegito are tied and due to Goku and Vegeta being stronger than they were vs Fused Zamasu that means SSB Gogeta from DBS Broly is stronger then SSB Vegito from Fused Zamasu battle who is stronger than Beerus. So SSB Gogeta would defeat MUI Goku.. MUI Goku's auto dodge ability would keep him in the fight for awhile though.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Beerus uses imperfect UI, it is part of his abilities so when they refer to Beerus power they are including his own imperfect UI usage. Goku with UI - Sign may be stronger than Beerus with imperfect UI. Shin who has and can sense God Ki says that SSB Vegito is stronger than Beerus. Newest information says Gogeta and Vegito are tied and due to Goku and Vegeta being stronger than they were vs Fused Zamasu that means SSB Gogeta from DBS Broly is stronger then SSB Vegito from Fused Zamasu battle who is stronger than Beerus. So SSB Gogeta would defeat MUI Goku.. MUI Goku's auto dodge ability would keep him in the fight for awhile though.

      eastern supreme kai is  an  inexperienced kai who barely knew about Beerus so its unikely he has ever seen his full power. Not to mention he said  maybe(something that everybody keeps ignoring) and it was only when he was charging the final kamehaha(which makes your power rise). Shonen jump has always been inaccurate before(super saiyan 3 goku=buuhan,,sjj gogeta is 16x namek super siayan goku) and that statement was an offhand one from some random editor,not to mention most of the translators disagree with that interpretation. and majority of info suggest Potara>fusiondance(daizenshu,chosenshuu etc) 

      Also you will have to show proof anime Beerus(or  the movie Beerus) has Ultra instinct .He only did it in the maga and it was clearly not Omen(no silver eyes no aura)not to mention he got caught multiple times(by mosco and belmod) .not to mention out of all the gods,belmod was the one uninjured(faking or not) while beerus was bleeding.

      Gogeta has really no feats aside from  just beating up broly(not a comeplete domination like vegito did to super buu)

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    • and where is your proof that Beerus would need a transformation to use UI like Goku does? Whis doesn't need one and in the manga Beerus didn't need one to use imperfect UI.. so again where is your proof he would need one in the anime??

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      and where is your proof that Beerus would need a transformation to use UI like Goku does? Whis doesn't need one and in the manga Beerus didn't need one to use imperfect UI.. so again where is your proof he would need one in the anime??

      Where your proof he can use it at all in the anime. he never seen using it at all. the only evidence people can say for him is interpeting whis's"not even he has mastered it" statement



      Also l

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      well it does say "power that surpasses a god of destuction"for Mui Goku so. and thats evidence for his side
      what proof? it's a screenshotted note and I don't see who wrote it or why a comicvine post should sway anyone.

      Its from the preview for dragon ball super episode 131 I believe . I found it on the website .

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    • Another thing to note is how the supreme kai of Universe 11 said when Jiren was powering up his power impact would kill him and Belmod. ultra instinct goku destroyed that attack

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    • What do you even think "not even beerus has MASTERED it" means? it means he can use it.. but he hasn't mastered it. JUST LIKE IN THE MANGA.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      What do you even think "not even beerus has MASTERED it" means? it means he can use it.. but he hasn't mastered it. JUST LIKE IN THE MANGA.

      Or he has  just started to kinda use it.Or  he can use it on on off.

      there multiple ways you can interperet it. if anything It may be ABOVE the manga version. so you cant be sure

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    • In this case, I think Flat's right. Not mastered means useable, but not to the full extent. That's not an interpretation, that's the definition.

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    • In all cases excluding Saiyans, Ultra Instinct is an ability that allows you to react to movements without thinking which makes combat that much more easier and more likely to tilt on your favor. It is unknown if it provides any sort of power boost for any who use it or if it’s just a neat skill. Goku achieves a power boost due to attaining Ultra Instinct via the form also called Ultra Instinct, the form provides a power boost as well as the use of Ultra Instinct.

      It is possible it is a form for everyone and the manga just didn’t show it for Beerus and Whis and his family are simply sustaining the form, but on the topic at hand Gogeta definitely would win. Previous comentors already listed the reasons.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      In all cases, excluding Saiyans, seen so far.

      Edited for accuracy.

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    • The phrase in all cases implies cases we have, not futuristic. Seems more unnecessary than accurate.

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    • The phrase no no case implies anything. It was an absolute comment.

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    • MUI easily win. Mui omen is a state even hakaishin have hard time to achieve that. Broly is the strongest enemy it's a joke. Movie writers making hype because of this statement. Akira wanted to make Broly and gogeta canon that's why ui not trigger in the movie.

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    • Vegito in Goku Black saga was quoted to be stronger than Beerus, this was before the extreme power gained in the ToP and Vegito wasn’t even in his mastered SSB form. Which means Gogeta is far beyond what Vegito was during Black arc due to the fusees being stronger and via the statement saying Vegito and Gogeta are equal in power.

      Adding in the history of fusion being far more powerful than the previously achieved form or strongest character previously established generally in base form, Gogeta is by no means stronger than UI Goku in base form but he most definitely exceeds UI Goku in Blue form.

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    • The issue with that is that clearly Beerus is more powerful than they gave him credit for in the zamasu arc. It was premature to say that, given that Beerus is meant to always be more powerful than goku until goku gets to a hard-to maintain last resort, deadly to himself level like ultra instinct. Also if that were true, fused zamasu would be more powerful than Jiren (considering that beerus was saying MUI Goku might be more powerful than him and how easily goku handled pre-asspull-powerup Jiren. Meaning that base Jiren is not more powerful than Beerus)

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    • This is more of the anime's flaws, in the manga it shows you Vegito is very clearly stronger than Zamasu Fused. VERY CLEARLY. But the anime was acting as if they were equal, if Vegito and Zamasu were equal than MSSB would be stronger than Beerus too, which is absolutely not the case.

      Power scaling in the ToP was inaccurate at best, including Jiren’s ridiculous power-up, but Zamasu was far below Jiren and Vegito was at a guaranteed stronger than Beerus. Vegito already was equal to or stronger than MUI Goku back in Black arc which means Gogeta is way stronger. Hence why Gogeta Blue would win, auto dodge may assist Goku but Gogeta will be the victor in the end if he even simply outlasted UI.

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    • Manga had xicor black. I’ll stick with the anime

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Manga had xicor black. I’ll stick with the anime

      you mean  that horrible version of Goku black?

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    • Also so people think super saiayn blue vegito is  equal Beerus now. Never knew supreme kai was a reliable source (  not to mention power levels apparently dont rise when you charge attacks)

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    • No Vegito Blue is above Beerus, seeing as Beerus and Shin share life yes he is a reliable source. Do you think they’d just write a blatant lie into the manga for the heck of it?

      Yes power levels do rise but Vegito wasn’t in MSSB which is explosively more powerful than normal Blue form.

      Manga Black was as good as or better than anime Black imo.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      No Vegito Blue is above Beerus, seeing as Beerus and Shin share life yes he is a reliable source. Do you think they’d just write a blatant lie into the manga for the heck of it?

      Yes power levels do rise but Vegito wasn’t in MSSB which is explosively more powerful than normal Blue form.

      Manga Zamasu with gokus body was terrible and  should  not be referred to as black

      there fixed it for ya. Also your still failing to say how is supreme kai is reliable

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    • Maybe try making your own comments instead of editing mine.

      Did you not read my comment? Beerus and Shin share life and Supreme Kai are very close in relation to their destroyer, of course they’re reliable, do you think Toyotaro just arbitrarily wrote some random statement into the manga? If you don’t count him as reliable that’s something I don’t care to change.

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    • Shin didn't even seem to know about Beerus.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Maybe try making your own comments instead of editing mine.

      Did you not read my comment? Beerus and Shin share life and Supreme Kai are very close in relation to their destroyer, of course they’re reliable, do you think Toyotaro just arbitrarily wrote some random statement into the manga? If you don’t count him as reliable that’s something I don’t care to change.

      oh no i was just fixing that grammar mistake about manga zamasu in goku's body you made.

      yes i did. and nothing your saying in anyway proves anything. And again  you did not answer my question. Did'nt supreme kai barely knew anything about Beerus? because f he barely knew him  why would he know his full power

      Also he said mabye(something that flew over you and flats head) by the way. so that right basically says he is not sure

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      Maybe try making your own comments instead of editing mine.

      Did you not read my comment? Beerus and Shin share life and Supreme Kai are very close in relation to their destroyer, of course they’re reliable, do you think Toyotaro just arbitrarily wrote some random statement into the manga? If you don’t count him as reliable that’s something I don’t care to change.

      oh no i was just fixing that grammar mistake about manga zamasu in goku's body you made.

      yes i did. and nothing your saying in anyway proves anything. And again  you did not answer my question. Did'nt supreme kai barely knew anything about Beerus? because f he barely knew him  why would he know his full power

      Also he said mabye(something that flew over you and flats head) by the way. so that right basically says he is not sure

      First fix your own grammar, it’s a struggle even to read your comments.

      Second that’s not grammar that’s your personal opinion that he wasn’t well portrayed in the manga, you are wrong.

      Third the Supreme Kai knows full well about Beerus as his numerous comments on how Beerus can’t erase him because Beerus would die along with him BECAUSE THEY SHARE LIFE, not sure how you failed to see this for two comments.

      Did he say maybe? I can show you an image of a panel clearly saying he is plain stronger, not maybe, and isn’t in MSSB. Can you show me a panel supporting what you say? More than likely not.

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    • Look, Jiren and UI - Sign Goku were stronger than the GoDs. MUI Goku and Super Full Power Jiren were stronger than the GoDs. SSB Vegito and SSB Gogeta are stronger than the GoDs. Beerus is included in that.. but do you know what made MUI Goku a threat to Jiren?? His auto dodge abilties. Jiren was the one landing better hits and overpowering his blasts when their speed was more on par. Jiren had the power advantage the whole way. MUI Goku's only shot at even making the full minute in this fight vs SSB Gogeta IS MUI's auto-dodge ability. SSB Gogeta would kill him. Super Full Power Jiren would kill him if he didn't have Auto-Dodge. MUI's auto dodge ability is its greatest ability and without that Goku wouldn't have won his fight vs Jiren at all.

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    • UI-S is NOT more powerful than Beerus. 

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    • MUI Goku is more powerful than Beerus, with his last usage of UI - Sign he "might be stronger than Beerus".

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:


      Chrome0X wrote:
      Maybe try making your own comments instead of editing mine.

      Did you not read my comment? Beerus and Shin share life and Supreme Kai are very close in relation to their destroyer, of course they’re reliable, do you think Toyotaro just arbitrarily wrote some random statement into the manga? If you don’t count him as reliable that’s something I don’t care to change.

      oh no i was just fixing that grammar mistake about manga zamasu in goku's body you made.

      yes i did. and nothing your saying in anyway proves anything. And again  you did not answer my question. Did'nt supreme kai barely knew anything about Beerus? because f he barely knew him  why would he know his full power

      Also he said mabye(something that flew over you and flats head) by the way. so that right basically says he is not sure

      First fix your own grammar, it’s a struggle even to read your comments.

      Second that’s not grammar that’s your personal opinion that he wasn’t well portrayed in the manga, you are wrong.

      Third the Supreme Kai knows full well about Beerus as his numerous comments on how Beerus can’t erase him because Beerus would die along with him BECAUSE THEY SHARE LIFE, not sure how you failed to see this for two comments.

      Did he say maybe? I can show you an image of a panel clearly saying he is plain stronger, not maybe, and isn’t in MSSB. Can you show me a panel supporting what you say? More than likely not.

      1 I only count like two grammar mistakes in that sentence and even with those I don't thik the sentence is supposed to make you "struggle" to read it

      2 Nope that was a clear grammatical error you made their sir.  

      3 That...does not even remotely in any way help your argument. I dont know how sharing life=knowing his full power. Last time I checked he had to be informed by old kai on God of destruction roles  so I dont see how he must know Beerus's full power

      4 Well that is what  i got from herms https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/854531215600177152( Also he is being sarcastic about supreme kai saying he is  never wrong about anything)




      Also your waaay too sensitive about that goku black comment.

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    • I actually agree with MUI being stronger than Beerus though only in the anime version(Anime Beerus has nothing hinting him to be special among the other god of destructions.the only ones who are implied to above the others are belmod and Gine , while manga  is kinda op)

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    • 1 I only count like two grammar mistakes in that sentence and even with those I don't thik the sentence is supposed to make you "struggle" to read it

      -think, also the phrasing in this paragraph isn’t great.

      2 Nope that was a clear grammatical error you made their sir.   -there. Also, “Nope, that”.

      3 That...does not even remotely in any way help your argument. I dont know how sharing life=knowing his full power. Last time I checked he had to be informed by old kai on God of destruction roles  so I dont see how he must know Beerus's full power

      -adding “in any way” is redundant and takes away from what you’re trying to say. Kai should be capitalized, as should destruction as it’s a title. There should also be a comma after roles.

      4 Well that is what  i got from herms https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/854531215600177152( Also he is being sarcastic about supreme kai saying he is  never wrong about anything)

      -“i” should be capitalized. As should kai




      Also your waaay too sensitive about that goku black comment. </div>

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      1 I only count like two grammar mistakes in that sentence and even with those I don't thik the sentence is supposed to make you "struggle" to read it

      -think, also the phrasing in this paragraph isn’t great.

      2 Nope that was a clear grammatical error you made their sir.   -there. Also, “Nope, that”.

      3 That...does not even remotely in any way help your argument. I dont know how sharing life=knowing his full power. Last time I checked he had to be informed by old kai on God of destruction roles  so I dont see how he must know Beerus's full power

      -adding “in any way” is redundant and takes away from what you’re trying to say. Kai should be capitalized, as should destruction as it’s a title. There should also be a comma after roles.

      4 Well that is what  i got from herms https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/854531215600177152( Also he is being sarcastic about supreme kai saying he is  never wrong about anything)

      -“i” should be capitalized. As should kai




      Also your waaay too sensitive about that goku black comment.

      </div>

      thanks  Professer Shipper

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      UI-S is NOT more powerful than Beerus.  

      wait why not. There no reason for him not to be

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    • So you’re going off of some random twitter comment to say Vegito is only maybe stronger than Beerus, interesting. Would you like the panel of the ACTUAL MANGA that says he is plain stronger than Beerus?

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    • Just to clarify, since the Broly movie is canon to the manga and not the anime (which I actually just discovered from this discussion) are we using anime MUI or manga MUI? Just making sure.

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    • KaioCrimX wrote: Just to clarify, since the Broly movie is canon to the manga and not the anime (which I actually just discovered from this discussion) are we using anime MUI or manga MUI? Just making sure.

      Oh my god, the Broly movie is canon both to the manga and the anime. I do not care what other people say about my opinion. Also it does not matter which MUI is being used, as the multiplier for both are pretty much the same, people are now gonna say that I am wrong.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      So you’re going off of some random twitter comment to say Vegito is only maybe stronger than Beerus, interesting. Would you like the panel of the ACTUAL MANGA that says he is plain stronger than Beerus?

      Consindering he translated tons of sources this wiki uses   yes

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    • If anything akira toriyama says the Movie takes place in the anime since he said toyotaro version of the movie would be different from the actual movie right  here https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2018/03/13/dragon-ball-super-will-get-an-anime-movie-later-this-year/#355d425b4e86

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    • So Goku and Vegeta just didn't use SSBKaioken, SSBEvolution, or Ultra Instinct for no real reason then. They just wanted it to be Gogeta to win the fight instead.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      So Goku and Vegeta just didn't use SSBKaioken, SSBEvolution, or Ultra Instinct for no real reason then. They just wanted it to be Gogeta to win the fight instead.

      Considering they didnt try to become vegito  . Yeah its kinda obvious the creators just wanted gogeta to be in it

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    • FlatZone wrote: So Goku and Vegeta just didn't use SSBKaioken, SSBEvolution, or Ultra Instinct for no real reason then. They just wanted it to be Gogeta to win the fight instead.

      Pretty much agreeing with Shin for once. The movie was better off without SSJBKK or Evolution, same said for UI. I want SSJG and Blue to be powerful again.

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    • IMO I think UI should ONLY ever be something that comes up against people like Jiren who are too OP. I think SSBKaioken and SSBEvolution were mistakes and should not have ever been made, they take away from Blue and God's shine like you said pretty much.

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    • FlatZone wrote: IMO I think UI should ONLY ever be something that comes up against people like Jiren who are too OP. I think SSBKaioken and SSBEvolution were mistakes and should not have ever been made, they take away from Blue and God's shine like you said pretty much.

      I agree with about what you said about UI, I just hate of how the show made SSJB look weak as heck, but I am satisfied now because Shintani did a great job making SSJB feel powerful, I might make a post about the God forms designs. I mean, I like how kaioken returned but still, if Goku only used the technique for emergencies then I would be ok with that, I prefer Mastered SSJB over SSJBKK.

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    • mastered super saiyan blue,kaioken and vegito they all werent in the movie for simple reasons.

      1.Gogeta would not be neccesary as goku and vegeta would one shot Broly  if they entered there strongest forms  as wrath Broly(great ape) would have died instantly against kaiokenx20

      2 If they used Vegito and he Killed broly. that would not attract as many fans as Gogeta(whose fans have wanted him to be canon for years now) despite the fact that they should have used vegito the moment they failed the fusion dance

      3 it probably would ruin gogeta fusion due to his time limit(it is half of vegito's)

      Also am i the only who noticed they made Gogeta a Vegito clone/GT Gogeta. I mean he was smiling,being cocky and playing with broly

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    • toyotaro ruined mastered super saiyan blue 

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: mastered super saiyan blue,kaioken and vegito they all werent in the movie for simple reasons.

      1.Gogeta would not be neccesary as goku and vegeta would one shot Broly  if they entered there strongest forms  as wrath Broly(great ape) would have died instantly against kaiokenx20

      2 If they used Vegito and he Killed broly. that would not attract as many fans as Gogeta(whose fans have wanted him to be canon for years now) despite the fact that they should have used vegito the moment they failed the fusion dance

      3 it probably would ruin gogeta fusion due to his time limit(it is half of vegito's)

      Also am i the only who noticed they made Gogeta a Vegito clone/GT Gogeta. I mean he was smiling,being cocky and playing with broly

      I disagree about Gogeta being a Vegito clone, he was actually serious in the movie and never toyed with Broly, the reason why he was smiling was because he was really confident.

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    • Also I agree with Flatzone on Ultra instinct.  Its quite clear the creators dont want goku to be able to spam it after Jiren(an enemy who is above the Gods of destruction)..It also allows Beerus to still be higher than goku  

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: Also I agree with Flatzone on Ultra instinct.  Its quite clear the creators dont want goku to be able to spam it after Jiren(an enemy who is above the Gods of destruction)..It also allows Beerus to still be higher than goku

      UI will also be still special to see.

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    • I honestly don't think Goku should EVER be allowed to tap into UI at will, period. I think Heroes already messed up allowing Goku to use UI - Sign at will. It's stupid to me.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I honestly don't think Goku should EVER be allowed to tap into UI at will, period. I think Heroes already messed up allowing Goku to use UI - Sign at will. It's stupid to me.

      I don’t think I’ll ever agree with anyone about anything more than I do about this.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I honestly don't think Goku should EVER be allowed to tap into UI at will, period. I think Heroes already messed up allowing Goku to use UI - Sign at will. It's stupid to me.

      I don’t mind that happening in heroes, since it’s just crazy. But nah that idea ain’t touching Super anytime soon, never in fact. Oh crap I have been talking to FlatZone in my other topics I made and I forgot to sleep.

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    • So i guess this is another thread that is over? 

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    • Raohyo
      Raohyo removed this reply because:
      s
      21:35, April 12, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

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    • Raohyo wrote: Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

      It never was stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren was stronger then a GoD.

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    • He was however  strong enough for whis to believe he was the mortal above the gods. then Jiren gets 3 more power ups after that. kinda blatantly obvious if Jiren was gonna kill his supreme kai and The gods of destruction by powering up. He is definetly way above Belmod.  Not to mention when he was supressed he was  alread in the realm of god of destruction.according to Toei.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

      It never was stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren was stronger then a GoD.

      I said as strong as a God, Whis stated this. This was about a heavily suppressed Jiren from 110. It's indisputable.

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    • Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

      It never was stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren was stronger then a GoD.

      I said as strong as a God, Whis stated this. This was about a heavily suppressed Jiren from 110. It's indisputable.

      Did Whis ever say ‘He is already as strong as a GoD in his current state of power’?

      You are underestimating the GoD way too much. If you say that heavily suppressed Jiren is as strong as a GoD then you are saying UI omen Goku is stronger then the GoDs because UI omen Goku > Heavily suppressed Jiren

      I say that Jiren 50% is slightly stronger then a GoD.

      SSJB Gogeta > UI Goku > LB Jiren.

      Also, it was stated that he was stronger then A god of destruction, meaning that he is above an average GoD, not stated to be stronger then Beerus or Champa.

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    • First it is undeniable that Whis  believed That heavily supressed Jiren is comparable to A god of destruction considering that before powering up Whis  said He was like A god of destruction.

      2 He is not underestimating The gods You are underestimating Omen  especially since this statement from Beerus in the preview  states Omen goku is possibly above him(https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560) and the fact that whis said  Belmod is above Beerus.not to mention these sources here (https://imgur.com/1ygLBc0)

      3   No evidence to support that either. super saiyan blue gogeta has nothing putting him above Beerus(aside from that saikyo jump  saying Broly is MABYE above a god of destruction)or Jiren. His only feat was  outclassing Broly (who has horrible feats himself. he got one full hour to kill golden freiza and failed ,while Toppo nearly in seconds)

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

      It never was stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren was stronger then a GoD.
      I said as strong as a God, Whis stated this. This was about a heavily suppressed Jiren from 110. It's indisputable.
      Did Whis ever say ‘He is already as strong as a GoD in his current state of power’?

      You are underestimating the GoD way too much. If you say that heavily suppressed Jiren is as strong as a GoD then you are saying UI omen Goku is stronger then the GoDs because UI omen Goku > Heavily suppressed Jiren

      I say that Jiren 50% is slightly stronger then a GoD.

      SSJB Gogeta > UI Goku > LB Jiren.

      Also, it was stated that he was stronger then A god of destruction, meaning that he is above an average GoD, not stated to be stronger then Beerus or Champa.

      Yes, given the contex of the scene, Whis was clearly talking about Jiren at his correct state of power.

      Jiren was stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced, by Shin and Whis in 110 and by Vegeta in 122. They were all referring to Jiren at his currect level of power, and keep in mind that Jiren was probably even more suppressed in 122 than he was in 110. That means he was already stronger than Vegito Blue from the previous arc as I said. He then goes on to power up 3 times after that, and only then breaks his limits. How could he possibly not be above a post top Gogeta/Vegito Blue?

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    • agreed

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    • Like I have stated before, the only reason UI and MUI Goku was able to survive and fight him was because of his auto dodge in UI, his auto-dodge/autoattack and his speed gains in MUI along with his rage boost that he got when Jiren threw the blast at the stands. Jiren doesn't have auto-dodge or auto attack yet he was able to clash evenly until Goku got the rage boost, he overpowered Goku's Supreme Kamehameha showing he had the power advantage. In the end Goku's rage speed and his auto abilities proved to wear Jiren down enough that the last Supreme Kamehameha after the super god punch together were able help Goku win that fight.. we then find out that Jiren had even more power hidden away and overcoming his trauma helped him bring what was left out against 17, frieza and goku. So if Jiren now that he has overcome his fears and trauma was to enter Super Full Power state from the very start he would be even stronger than in the ToP. Jiren exceeds the Gods of Destruction for sure.. but he will never reach Angel level of power, in fact none of them ever will and if one of these characters do I am done with this series. MUI Beerus should be near Angel level of power if he ever completes MUI that is, and that's the only person I would accept being that strong because Goku and Vegeta will always need goals to aim for and Jiren, Broly and Beerus are the goals. Jiren IMO should always remain the single most powerful mortal with Broly being very close.. shit make Broly and Jiren into serious rivals too I would love to see that rivalry and leave Goku to fight Beerus as the serious rivalry. Vegeta and him have a rivalry but its no longer as serious as it should be, they keep giving Goku these extra asspull forms to put him at the top when the whole premise for Super was that Goku and Vegeta were truly equals in power and could fight the enemies TOGETHER. So now that SSBEvolved is manga and anime they should give it to Goku too and take away his UI Sign and UI forms since they are bs asspulls to me, Beerus doesn't need a form to use the imperfect UI and Whis doesn't need a form to use the perfect UI.. hell Roshi is using something similar to imperfect UI too. Goku and Vegeta should simply gain usage of Imperfect UI like Beerus did.. without a form.. and they can add it to SSBEvolved and BAM then they can truly be rivals with Vegeta using the auto attack side and Goku using the auto dodge side of imperfect UI. Rant over lol

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: First it is undeniable that Whis  believed That heavily supressed Jiren is comparable to A god of destruction considering that before powering up Whis  said He was like A god of destruction.

      2 He is not underestimating The gods You are underestimating Omen  especially since this statement from Beerus in the preview  states Omen goku is possibly above him(https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560) and the fact that whis said  Belmod is above Beerus.not to mention these sources here (https://imgur.com/1ygLBc0)

      3   No evidence to support that either. super saiyan blue gogeta has nothing putting him above Beerus(aside from that saikyo jump  saying Broly is MABYE above a god of destruction)or Jiren. His only feat was  outclassing Broly (who has horrible feats himself. he got one full hour to kill golden freiza and failed ,while Toppo nearly in seconds)

      1. You do realise that you do not need to power up to increase your power?

      2. It’s possibly, not certain, and yes, Belmond is above Beerus, but Beerus has UI unlike Belmod, this means that UI Beerus > UI omen Goku.

      3. Dimensional Shattering Feat

      Broly could of suppressed his power to beat up Frieza, he might of been just using punches and simple ki blasts.

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    • Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

      It never was stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren was stronger then a GoD.
      I said as strong as a God, Whis stated this. This was about a heavily suppressed Jiren from 110. It's indisputable.
      Did Whis ever say ‘He is already as strong as a GoD in his current state of power’?

      You are underestimating the GoD way too much. If you say that heavily suppressed Jiren is as strong as a GoD then you are saying UI omen Goku is stronger then the GoDs because UI omen Goku > Heavily suppressed Jiren

      I say that Jiren 50% is slightly stronger then a GoD.

      SSJB Gogeta > UI Goku > LB Jiren.

      Also, it was stated that he was stronger then A god of destruction, meaning that he is above an average GoD, not stated to be stronger then Beerus or Champa.

      Yes, given the contex of the scene, Whis was clearly talking about Jiren at his correct state of power.

      Jiren was stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced, by Shin and Whis in 110 and by Vegeta in 122. They were all referring to Jiren at his currect level of power, and keep in mind that Jiren was probably even more suppressed in 122 than he was in 110. That means he was already stronger than Vegito Blue from the previous arc as I said. He then goes on to power up 3 times after that, and only then breaks his limits. How could he possibly not be above a post top Gogeta/Vegito Blue?

      How could he possibly not be above a post top Gogeta/Vegito Blue? That is because Fusion characters are OP. Kelfa, for example, could take out UI Omen Goku by one of her laser things, keep in mind that UI omen Goku was possibly above Beerus without his UI technique. If Kelfa was that OP, then Vegito/ Gogeta should be.

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    • 1 yet Jiren powered up to realease more power.yet freiza powered up on namek.

      2 proof of his level of mastery in the anime. His version in the manga was so pathetic  that the author basically forgot it(considering he got caught AND was seen bleeding in the tournament).For all we know anime beerus version could be worse.

      3    that is not a feat at all . They  just did  a more stronger version of the vice shout(they went to another dimension)  their  universe was still intact so they did not damage anything. 

      4 why would Broly, when Berserk, be supressed?  he had no control of himself at all. Not to mention he was pushed back by freiza transforming . 

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:


      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: Well, a heavily suppressed Jiren was already stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced and as strong as a God, meaning he was already above Vegito Blue from the Black arc. Goku and Vegeta didn't get drastically stronger during the Top outside their new forms, meaning Jiren should be able to mop the floor with Gogeta Blue without even using his LB power-up. UI Goku is overkill.

      It never was stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren was stronger then a GoD.
      I said as strong as a God, Whis stated this. This was about a heavily suppressed Jiren from 110. It's indisputable.
      Did Whis ever say ‘He is already as strong as a GoD in his current state of power’?

      You are underestimating the GoD way too much. If you say that heavily suppressed Jiren is as strong as a GoD then you are saying UI omen Goku is stronger then the GoDs because UI omen Goku > Heavily suppressed Jiren

      I say that Jiren 50% is slightly stronger then a GoD.

      SSJB Gogeta > UI Goku > LB Jiren.

      Also, it was stated that he was stronger then A god of destruction, meaning that he is above an average GoD, not stated to be stronger then Beerus or Champa.

      Yes, given the contex of the scene, Whis was clearly talking about Jiren at his correct state of power.

      Jiren was stated to be the strongest enemy they've ever faced, by Shin and Whis in 110 and by Vegeta in 122. They were all referring to Jiren at his currect level of power, and keep in mind that Jiren was probably even more suppressed in 122 than he was in 110. That means he was already stronger than Vegito Blue from the previous arc as I said. He then goes on to power up 3 times after that, and only then breaks his limits. How could he possibly not be above a post top Gogeta/Vegito Blue?

      How could he possibly not be above a post top Gogeta/Vegito Blue? That is because Fusion characters are OP. Kelfa, for example, could take out UI Omen Goku by one of her laser things, keep in mind that UI omen Goku was possibly above Beerus without his UI technique. If Kelfa was that OP, then Vegito/ Gogeta should be.

      Omen Goku from 116 dominated Kefla though, even though he was relatively weak offensively. Omen from 129 was superior to the one from 116 and it was still not much for Jiren. 

      At the end of the day Gogeta needed to go full power as Blue to beat someone who's around Beerus' level. It's consistent with my position that Jiren and UI Goku are far above all the Gods, while Gogeta/Vegito are just slightly above it.

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    • you do know Kefla Broke her limits to get that power. it wasnt her normal power

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    • It’s pretty simple, Vegito was stronger than Beerus back in Black arc. Gogeta is equal to Vegito. Goku and Vegeta heavily increased their power during the ToP.

      Even in the movie Gogeta IN BASE competently fought someone who was demolishing two MSSBs. Gogeta Blue definitely takes this fight.

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    • He was mainly running from Broly, I wouldn't say he was fighting Broly, he only started to actually fight him once he went into his own SS form. Vegito from Broly Movie would be stronger than Black Arc Vegito who was said to be stronger than Beerus by Shin who is linked to Beerus and can sense God Ki and always has been able to. Gogeta and Vegito with SSB in the Broly Arc > Beerus clearly. Jiren, SFP Jiren and MUI Goku(Mainly because of his auto dodge and auto attack from UI)also beat Beerus. Kefla was had the power to beat UI Sign Goku and with one hit from her tech she would have killed him meaning she had the power advantage, Goku just had the auto dodge ability from UI Sign which again is its literal strongest factor for the form. So clearly fusion has always been and always will be on a different level than anything a single mortal can do. SSB Gogeta's ONLY issue fighting MUI Goku will be dealing with auto-dodge/auto-attack ability but then again as we saw with Jiren it can be overcome if you are stronger than the person using it at the time... so SSB Gogeta will overcome it and kill MUI Goku.

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    • I wouldn’t underestimate the power boost that comes with the UI transformation but yeah you pretty much summed it all up.

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    • Also, Gogeta never used his full power when he was fighting against Broly, there is a source (I will try to find it) that says Gogeta used a hint of his true power against Broly, he was even smiling when fighting the monster.

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    • To end the discussion, UI only lasted for like, 2 minutes, it is pretty obvious that Gogeta would crush UI Goku. Also, it was stated that one kick from Kelfa rivals the Spirit Bomb.

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    • You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      It’s pretty simple, Vegito was stronger than Beerus back in Black arc. Gogeta is equal to Vegito. Goku and Vegeta heavily increased their power during the ToP.

      Even in the movie Gogeta IN BASE competently fought someone who was demolishing two MSSBs. Gogeta Blue definitely takes this fight.

      What???Mastered super saiyan blues.Woah. what chapter of the manga was that. I forgot.........Oh wait it did not appear in the manga because toyo skipped broly(like he did with freiza) . but then again you still believe the movie  is in the manga even though toriyama said that toyotaro woud be making his own version  of the movie.

      Until it is stated by toriyama or anybody .He was fighting normal super saiyan blue goku and vegeta 

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    • Raohyo wrote: You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

      So are you saying that 1% Jiren is stronger then Vegito from the Black Arc? Fusions are just too powerful, for example, Caulifa and Kale were having trouble with SSJ2 Goku but when they fused, a kick from Kelfa rivalled the Spirit Bomb, and one of her lasers could kill UI omen Goku! And UI omen Goku is like, 30% of Jirens power. Keep in mind that Kelfa was only Berserk SSJ2. I would say that Base Vegito/Gogeta would best BSSJ 2 Kelfa, so in conclusion, Gogeta wins.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      It’s pretty simple, Vegito was stronger than Beerus back in Black arc.

      Supreme Kai stating so doesn't make it true. Seeing as he's never seen Beerus fight before, it's pretty laughable to use his statement as a fact.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

      So are you saying that 1% Jiren is stronger then Vegito from the Black Arc? Fusions are just too powerful, for example, Caulifa and Kale were having trouble with SSJ2 Goku but when they fused, a kick from Kelfa rivalled the Spirit Bomb, and one of her lasers could kill UI omen Goku! And UI omen Goku is like, 30% of Jirens power. Keep in mind that Kelfa was only Berserk SSJ2. I would say that Base Vegito/Gogeta would best BSSJ 2 Kelfa, so in conclusion, Gogeta wins.

      Who said 1%? Suppressed Jiren from 110 and 122 is stronger than Vegito Blue from the Black arc. It can't be disputed.

      The Kefla thing doesn't prove anything, complete UI is light years ahead of Omen. You said it yourself, Omen was nothing to Jiren, but CUI dominated him at his full power. 

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    • Tasanox wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      It’s pretty simple, Vegito was stronger than Beerus back in Black arc.

      Supreme Kai stating so doesn't make it true. Seeing as he's never seen Beerus fight before, it's pretty laughable to use his statement as a fact.

      It’s not laughable, it’s facts, Supreme Kai has been with Beerus for a very long time, even if he has not, Elder Kai might of told him about how powerful Beerus was.

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    • Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

      So are you saying that 1% Jiren is stronger then Vegito from the Black Arc? Fusions are just too powerful, for example, Caulifa and Kale were having trouble with SSJ2 Goku but when they fused, a kick from Kelfa rivalled the Spirit Bomb, and one of her lasers could kill UI omen Goku! And UI omen Goku is like, 30% of Jirens power. Keep in mind that Kelfa was only Berserk SSJ2. I would say that Base Vegito/Gogeta would best BSSJ 2 Kelfa, so in conclusion, Gogeta wins.

      Who said 1%? Suppressed Jiren from 110 and 122 is stronger than Vegito Blue from the Black arc. It can't be disputed.

      The Kefla thing doesn't prove anything, complete UI is light years ahead of Omen. You said it yourself, Omen was nothing to Jiren, but CUI dominated him at his full power. 

      Omen was something to Jiren, otherwise he would of not stopped meditating when Goku turned UI omen again. The other GoDs would also beat Jiren no matter what, why? Because they have the hakai (the one Beerus used against Zamasu).

      UI would be 10x stronger then UI omen. After all, MSSJ was theorised to be 10x stronger then SSJ.

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    • But you have no proof  Elder kai told him( that would not change anything anyway). So in the end its your opinion not a fact.

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    • Also it was a hidden power Super saiyan 2 kefla who could kill UI Goku. normal kefla could not

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

      So are you saying that 1% Jiren is stronger then Vegito from the Black Arc? Fusions are just too powerful, for example, Caulifa and Kale were having trouble with SSJ2 Goku but when they fused, a kick from Kelfa rivalled the Spirit Bomb, and one of her lasers could kill UI omen Goku! And UI omen Goku is like, 30% of Jirens power. Keep in mind that Kelfa was only Berserk SSJ2. I would say that Base Vegito/Gogeta would best BSSJ 2 Kelfa, so in conclusion, Gogeta wins.
      Who said 1%? Suppressed Jiren from 110 and 122 is stronger than Vegito Blue from the Black arc. It can't be disputed.

      The Kefla thing doesn't prove anything, complete UI is light years ahead of Omen. You said it yourself, Omen was nothing to Jiren, but CUI dominated him at his full power. 

      Omen was something to Jiren, otherwise he would of not stopped meditating when Goku turned UI omen again. The other GoDs would also beat Jiren no matter what, why? Because they have the hakai (the one Beerus used against Zamasu).

      UI would be 10x stronger then UI omen. After all, MSSJ was theorised to be 10x stronger then SSJ.

      He stopped meditating because Goku was making progress, not because Omen on itself was a real threat.

      You can't Hakai someone who's stronger than you.

      UI is not another SSJ transformation, come on now.

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    • Why doesn't Beerus use hakai on the grand preist?? he is not invincible as far we know. 

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    • Also Jiren>>>>>All god of destructions apparently https://imgur.com/1ygLBc0(which is not suprising since nothing suggest their afar above each other  in the anime)

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    • Because the grand priest would notice Beerus considering it before the idea had fully formed in Beerus' mind and then he would have flicked him in the head, resulting in said head looking like someone popped a blood-filled water baloon.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Because the grand priest would notice Beerus considering it before the idea had fully formed in Beerus' mind and then he would have flicked him in the head, resulting in said head looking like someone popped a blood-filled water baloon.

      Exactly.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: Also Jiren>>>>>All god of destructions apparently https://imgur.com/1ygLBc0(which is not suprising since nothing suggest their afar above each other  in the anime)

      Any proof? The link you sent was a meme.

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    • Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

      So are you saying that 1% Jiren is stronger then Vegito from the Black Arc? Fusions are just too powerful, for example, Caulifa and Kale were having trouble with SSJ2 Goku but when they fused, a kick from Kelfa rivalled the Spirit Bomb, and one of her lasers could kill UI omen Goku! And UI omen Goku is like, 30% of Jirens power. Keep in mind that Kelfa was only Berserk SSJ2. I would say that Base Vegito/Gogeta would best BSSJ 2 Kelfa, so in conclusion, Gogeta wins.
      Who said 1%? Suppressed Jiren from 110 and 122 is stronger than Vegito Blue from the Black arc. It can't be disputed.

      The Kefla thing doesn't prove anything, complete UI is light years ahead of Omen. You said it yourself, Omen was nothing to Jiren, but CUI dominated him at his full power. 

      Omen was something to Jiren, otherwise he would of not stopped meditating when Goku turned UI omen again. The other GoDs would also beat Jiren no matter what, why? Because they have the hakai (the one Beerus used against Zamasu).

      UI would be 10x stronger then UI omen. After all, MSSJ was theorised to be 10x stronger then SSJ.

      He stopped meditating because Goku was making progress, not because Omen on itself was a real threat.

      You can't Hakai someone who's stronger than you.

      UI is not another SSJ transformation, come on now.

      Goku was making progress earlier when Jiren was meditating, when Goku turned UI omen then Jiren stopped meditating.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: But you have no proof  Elder kai told him( that would not change anything anyway). So in the end its your opinion not a fact.

      That’s why I said MIGHT.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: Also it was a hidden power Super saiyan 2 kefla who could kill UI Goku. normal kefla could not

      That just proves that fusion characters are a lot stronger then we think. You seem to be dodging the fact that Keflas kick rivalled the Spirit Bomb.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote:


      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Raohyo wrote: You can't just mix the anime and the manga together. Ther're not on the same continuity, and the anime is the main product when it comes to Super. Vegito from the Black arc was roughly equal to Merged Zamasu. A heavily suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than that. In conclusion, Jiren stomps Gogeta.

      Even Heroes got that right, UI Goku and Jiren are shown to be far superior to any fusion there. I'm sure the anime would eventually confirm this when it comes back.

      So are you saying that 1% Jiren is stronger then Vegito from the Black Arc? Fusions are just too powerful, for example, Caulifa and Kale were having trouble with SSJ2 Goku but when they fused, a kick from Kelfa rivalled the Spirit Bomb, and one of her lasers could kill UI omen Goku! And UI omen Goku is like, 30% of Jirens power. Keep in mind that Kelfa was only Berserk SSJ2. I would say that Base Vegito/Gogeta would best BSSJ 2 Kelfa, so in conclusion, Gogeta wins.
      Who said 1%? Suppressed Jiren from 110 and 122 is stronger than Vegito Blue from the Black arc. It can't be disputed.

      The Kefla thing doesn't prove anything, complete UI is light years ahead of Omen. You said it yourself, Omen was nothing to Jiren, but CUI dominated him at his full power. 

      Omen was something to Jiren, otherwise he would of not stopped meditating when Goku turned UI omen again. The other GoDs would also beat Jiren no matter what, why? Because they have the hakai (the one Beerus used against Zamasu).

      UI would be 10x stronger then UI omen. After all, MSSJ was theorised to be 10x stronger then SSJ.

      He stopped meditating because Goku was making progress, not because Omen on itself was a real threat.

      You can't Hakai someone who's stronger than you.

      UI is not another SSJ transformation, come on now.

      Goku was making progress earlier when Jiren was meditating, when Goku turned UI omen then Jiren stopped meditating.

      Goku went Omen while Jiren was meditating and he didn't react at all. You could even see Goku's "heat" going around him while he's meditating and he dosen't even flinch. Jiren only wakes up after Goku says he's starting to get the hang of it and powers-up.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: Because the grand priest would notice Beerus considering it before the idea had fully formed in Beerus' mind and then he would have flicked him in the head, resulting in said head looking like someone popped a blood-filled water baloon.

      Exactly.

      not a reasoning at all.   you have not shown any proof that  Beerus can hakai the grand preist

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: Also it was a hidden power Super saiyan 2 kefla who could kill UI Goku. normal kefla could not

      That just proves that fusion characters are a lot stronger then we think. You seem to be dodging the fact that Keflas kick rivalled the Spirit Bomb.

      Im not dodging anything. Hidden power means she does not normally have that power with her.  meaning   that power was not normally available to her.

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    • That was not a meme. the link  got mixed. here it is https://imgur.com/1ygLBc0

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Tasanox wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      It’s pretty simple, Vegito was stronger than Beerus back in Black arc.
      Supreme Kai stating so doesn't make it true. Seeing as he's never seen Beerus fight before, it's pretty laughable to use his statement as a fact.
      It’s not laughable, it’s facts, Supreme Kai has been with Beerus for a very long time, even if he has not, Elder Kai might of told him about how powerful Beerus was.

      Also How is it a fact if you just said I meant might???

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    • Also one more thing Monty. Mastered super saiyan ten times normal super saiyan? did you get that from a youtuber or that legend of manga. because the manga does not support it at all(not to mention the daizenshuu

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    • Yeah the whole SS3G being 10x the power of SS thing was only from the mexican edition of that guidebook and it is most definitely false as SS2 was compared to SS3G with Trunks saying Gohan managed to do it without losing speed. SS2 is SS3G's power but without the drawbacks from SS3G. Meaning in reality it is only 100x the base forms power. SS2 is considered better because it lacks the drawbacks that SS3G has and that's a given.

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    • Shin the science guy
      Shin the science guy removed this reply because:
      l
      16:04, April 15, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Also don't you mean "spanish" not "mexican"

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    • Whichever one it is. and no, SS3G is Super Saiyan Third Grade.

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    • yeah i just deleted it

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Whichever one it is. and no, SS3G is Super Saiyan Third Grade.

      No wonder no one uses it.

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    • Nervous is right

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    • Keflas kick still rivalled the Spirit Bomb without the ‘hidden power’.

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    • Kefla is not Spirit Bomb level. Whis was compering her to the Spirit Bomb in terms of a role, (both put Goku in the same state) and not in terms of raw power. Given the context of the whole scene, that's what makes the most sense. The Spirit Bomb was far stronger than a SSJBKK X20 Goku, there is no way Kefla could rival that in terms of power.

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    • considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

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    • Herms from Kanzenshuu already did the potara vs dance thing on twitter and kanzenshuu, it came down to Potara and Dance being equal except for the fact Potara has double the time limit for mortals, the old potara and dance info were retconned man. Also Goku said he wasn't going to hold back against her so he did indeed use SSBKX20.

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    • No that was herms interpetation(opinion). other translators did not agree with him.https://twitter.com/KenXyro/status/1070924543961686016. herms is not above other translaters at all.  yes he translates alot But nothing puts his opinion above anyone else's.

      that could be interpeted as him just using his normal super saiyan blue full power and kaioken(also he was tired anyway) .Either way it was not full power blue kaiokenx20 ,.

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    • You know what a retcon means right?? SSB Vegito could only hold the fusion for less than 5 minutes. While SSB Gogeta could hold it for longer. They retconned the way each fusion works now. Potara and Dance are equal in power now, but one would normally last longer, while the other seems to be able to deal with transformations better. I would listen to the supplemental information before another users opinion any day of the week. Currently, in power, Potara and Dance are equal. Until they retcon that again that is how it remains.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.

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    • So something I just learned is this, in SDBH the Prison Planet Saga takes place after the Broly movie's events. Guess who is called the strongest mortal in the multiverse? Jiren, not Broly. Jiren then proceeds to take on SS3FP Cunber, Hearts, and Fused Zamasu and he is winning, they cannot beat him with Hearts agreeing that he is indeed the multiverse's strongest mortal.

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    • 1 5 minutes is something fans made up .no officialt time limit  was stated for vegito. Plus he was in blue form(which reduced his time limit)

      2 prove gogeta held it longer then. He only went super saiyan blue for like 5 minutes on screen(considering that IT WAS  super saiyan blue that reduced vegito time limit)

      3 equal in power based on some random editor opinion that's up for interpretation? yeah no. Until toriyama says their equal their not equal

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.

      And you did not read anything I wrote

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    • FlatZone wrote: So something I just learned is this, in SDBH the Prison Planet Saga takes place after the Broly movie's events. Guess who is called the strongest mortal in the multiverse? Jiren, not Broly. Jiren then proceeds to take on SS3FP Cunber, Hearts, and Fused Zamasu and he is winning, they cannot beat him with Hearts agreeing that he is indeed the multiverse's strongest mortal.

      The problem wkth that js thats a promotional advertisement for a video game and has objectively no bearing on canon by any sane definition of canon.

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    • Its the videogame and the manga of heroes that it is from, the anime will most likely have the same thing it in. That leaves only the actual Super manga to have its say in the matter which it hasn't yet. So far Jiren is at the top and nothing has changed that yet.

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    • The statement was wrong before it was said, Jiren lost to UI Goku. Goku is the strongest mortal.

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    • since goku can't technically use Ultra instinct on the go. Jiren is still the strongest mortal. As that is the only thing That put's him above jiren( and not by much anyway)

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    • MUI is not something Goku can use willingly and it was a one off thing in the main series so Jiren remains the strongest mortal.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.

      And you did not read anything I wrote

      And I did not understand what you were trying to say here.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: since goku can't technically use Ultra instinct on the go. Jiren is still the strongest mortal. As that is the only thing That put's him above jiren( and not by much anyway)

      Eh, I believe that Broly is the strongest mortal, but we are not going to discuss that because people were discussing in a different thread.

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    • FlatZone wrote: So something I just learned is this, in SDBH the Prison Planet Saga takes place after the Broly movie's events. Guess who is called the strongest mortal in the multiverse? Jiren, not Broly. Jiren then proceeds to take on SS3FP Cunber, Hearts, and Fused Zamasu and he is winning, they cannot beat him with Hearts agreeing that he is indeed the multiverse's strongest mortal.

      How do you know that it takes place after the Broly movie’s events? The movie was not even out when SDBH was made.

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    • Go check the pages, info was released saying it takes place after the Galactic Patrol Saga which takes place after the Broly Saga. Broly is still weaker than Jiren lmao

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.
      And you did not read anything I wrote
      And I did not understand what you were trying to say here.

      That i did not say what you seem to ble claiming i said.

        Loading editor
    • Shin the science guy wrote:
      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:


      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.
      And you did not read anything I wrote
      And I did not understand what you were trying to say here.
      That i did not say what you seem to ble claiming i said.

      What? 'ble'??? 

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Go check the pages, info was released saying it takes place after the Galactic Patrol Saga which takes place after the Broly Saga. Broly is still weaker than Jiren lmao

      I cannot find it anywhere, I only see that it took place after TOP. And yes, I have found it on the Dragon Ball timeline page but, where is the source?

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:


      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.
      And you did not read anything I wrote
      And I did not understand what you were trying to say here.
      That i did not say what you seem to ble claiming i said.
      What? 'ble'??? 

      It's called a typo

        Loading editor
    • Shin the science guy wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:


      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: considering that only second prior she was on par with ssb goku kaioken(normal kaioken by the way)  i think raohyo is right on  it being compared on a role. 

      Also Kefla is a Potara fuson. Not dance. the only thing that said dance=fusion was that Shonen jump editor(not Toriyama) calling gogeta and vegito  equal trump cards which  means nothing since

      1 Toriyama had nothing to do with that interview at all. All information from daizenshuu,Chozenshuu and others say potara>dance.Thus  the editor opinion is condraticed

      2  Shonen jump has said things that make no sense in the past like Gogeta power level is 2.4 billion(only 16 x higher than namek super saiyan goku) Buuhan(buu with  gohan absorbed) is equal to super saiyan 3 goku ,etc. they primary purpose is to market  not give facts

      She beat SSJB Kaioken Goku. Fusion was retconned. And Kelfa was still in BSSJ not 2, BSSJ2 is not her ‘hidden power’.
      And you did not read anything I wrote
      And I did not understand what you were trying to say here.
      That i did not say what you seem to ble claiming i said.
      What? 'ble'??? 

      It's called a typo

      Did you know you can edit your comments?

        Loading editor
    • Shin the science guy
      Shin the science guy removed this reply because:
      lo
      16:29, April 20, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • the point?

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    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:35, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • ChrisFit
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      Going to Disable Account.
      02:36, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Counterpoint: he'd used levels of UI several times during the 45 minutes and its probable that those times weren't easy on the body either.

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    • ChrisFit wrote:
      ChrisFit wrote:
      Honestly, I don't know. I will say this though. MUI time limit seems to shorter than the one for fusion. Meaning, unless SSJ Blue Gogeta is vastly overpowered, MUI could run out sooner than the fusion.
      In fact episode #128 at the end of the episode, there was only 2 minutes left in the Tournament of Power where in the very next episode, Goku went MUI for the first time meaning from the time he went MUI to the time he lost the form was technically less than two minutes possibly even 1 minute or a minute and a half as he did finish his fight in that form, but lost it afterward. Gogeta on the other hand has three relatively OP states, his Base, Super Sayian, and Blue {and arguably God/Red, but this assumption not confirmation}. The way I see it, MUI would have to finish it  extremely fast, otherwise the Fusion and time limit of MUI may take its toll allowing the fusion to prevail. 

      It would be pretty much impossible for UI Goku to defeated Gogeta, the fusion's durability is just too tough for UI Goku to quickly finish. 

        Loading editor
    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:36, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Because gogeta has Highly impressive durabilty feats right?

        Loading editor
    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:36, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • ChrisFit wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:
      Because gogeta has Highly impressive durabilty feats right?

      Not so much durability in the sense of taking damage. I believe the durability some are referring to has to do with the fact that the fusion is likely to outlast MUI Goku in a fight. Although if we are referring to that type of durability as well, I would say both could withstand high-level attacks and still fight on.

      Well he did manage to beat Broly unharmed.

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    • So he has no real durabily feats?  Again whats puts him at even base Jiren level .Because Both him and Broly feats are mediocore at best

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:
      So he has no real durabily feats?  Again whats puts him at even base Jiren level .Because Both him and Broly feats are mediocore at best

      Mediocre in comparison to Jiren & MUI Goku? In hindsight, the TOP plot wise was all about feats and strength while the new Broly movie was primarily focused on adding to the sayain lore and making an extremely popular character canon. That movie clearly wasn't targeted towards feats so much as hype, which for a movie is fine. Although objectively speaking, why introduce a character only to have him digress in comparison to a previous antagonist i.e. Jiren (while Jiren may not be evil or a villain, by default he is an antagonist because he was the objective Goku had to overcome.)? To give Goku & Vegeta a weaker opponent makes no sense.

      But again, I think this question suffers from the same problem as this question: Jiren vs. Broly.

      Two characters from two different sagas, with their own respective abilities, with about an equal fanbase arguing from both sides. I don't think the answer will ever be definitive or at the very least satisfactory for all. 

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    • Characters digress in comparison to the previous villian? You mean like almost every villian after Beerus. Not to mention broly did not make goku break his "shells"  like  Jiren did. You already said the reason  of making the movie. To introduce  two(not one) popular  non canon characters into the storyline. There is No reason to make Broly stronger than  Jiren at all since the movie barely takes place after the TOP, Goku  did not go Ultra instinct(which is his shells breaking from something extreme),Broly had an hour(more tie than entire tournament ) to Kill golden freiza and freiza was less injured than his fight with goku on namek( if you go by the novel Freiza actually staggered Broly durinng the fight) and he was capable of leaving the earth by himself(not to mention he lacked any notable injuries).  Their really is no reason to put Broly  above  Even  Toppo in God of destruction mode since he has far better feats aside from hype and fanlove

        Loading editor
    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:35, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:35, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • ChrisFit wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      Characters digress in comparison to the previous villian? You mean like almost every villian after Beerus. Not to mention broly did not make goku break his "shells"  like  Jiren did.

      You already said the reason  of making the movie. To introduce  two(not one) popular  non canon characters into the storyline. There is No reason to make Broly stronger than  Jiren at all since the movie barely takes place after the TOP, Goku  did not go Ultra instinct(which is his shells breaking from something extreme),Broly had an hour(more tie than entire tournament ) to Kill golden freiza and freiza was less injured than his fight with goku on namek( if you go by the novel Freiza actually staggered Broly durinng the fight) and he was capable of leaving the earth by himself(not to mention he lacked any notable injuries).  Their really is no reason to put Broly  above  Even  Toppo in God of destruction mode since he has far better feats aside from hype and fanlove

      That's still a stretch. If anything, the fact that Golden Frieza lasted so long in his form is a clear example of exponential power growth. Saying that Toppo could beat him now would digress the fact that Frieza made any improvements at all, thereby putting him in a stationary non-improving category. 

      Not just that, it is very impressive that Frieza survived against Broly very well, he was still in his Golden Form despite him being beat up for like, an hour. This just proves that Frieza improved alot in a short amount of time. Meanwhile Goku and Vegeta had to escape from Broly because of how beat up they were, especially Vegeta.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:
      Characters digress in comparison to the previous villian? You mean like almost every villian after Beerus. Not to mention broly did not make goku break his "shells"  like  Jiren did.

      You already said the reason  of making the movie. To introduce  two(not one) popular  non canon characters into the storyline. There is No reason to make Broly stronger than  Jiren at all since the movie barely takes place after the TOP, Goku  did not go Ultra instinct(which is his shells breaking from something extreme),Broly had an hour(more tie than entire tournament ) to Kill golden freiza and freiza was less injured than his fight with goku on namek( if you go by the novel Freiza actually staggered Broly durinng the fight) and he was capable of leaving the earth by himself(not to mention he lacked any notable injuries).  Their really is no reason to put Broly  above  Even  Toppo in God of destruction mode since he has far better feats aside from hype and fanlove

      Goku did not go UI for two reasons.

      1. His universe was not in danger.

      2. So Gogeta can appear to defeat Broly instead of just Goku.

      Oh and I forgot to mention that will be boring and repetitive.

      Goku did really say he only goes UI when he is in alot of danger, including losing his family and friends.

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    • Goku goes UI only in very extreme situations.

      Such as getting his spirit bomb thown at himself,facing kefla with absolutely no stamina,etc.

      that too not at will

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:
      ChrisFit wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      Characters digress in comparison to the previous villian? You mean like almost every villian after Beerus. Not to mention broly did not make goku break his "shells"  like  Jiren did.

      You already said the reason  of making the movie. To introduce  two(not one) popular  non canon characters into the storyline. There is No reason to make Broly stronger than  Jiren at all since the movie barely takes place after the TOP, Goku  did not go Ultra instinct(which is his shells breaking from something extreme),Broly had an hour(more tie than entire tournament ) to Kill golden freiza and freiza was less injured than his fight with goku on namek( if you go by the novel Freiza actually staggered Broly durinng the fight) and he was capable of leaving the earth by himself(not to mention he lacked any notable injuries).  Their really is no reason to put Broly  above  Even  Toppo in God of destruction mode since he has far better feats aside from hype and fanlove

      That's still a stretch. If anything, the fact that Golden Frieza lasted so long in his form is a clear example of exponential power growth. Saying that Toppo could beat him now would digress the fact that Frieza made any improvements at all, thereby putting him in a stationary non-improving category. 
      Not just that, it is very impressive that Frieza survived against Broly very well, he was still in his Golden Form despite him being beat up for like, an hour. This just proves that Frieza improved alot in a short amount of time. Meanwhile Goku and Vegeta had to escape from Broly because of how beat up they were, especially Vegeta.


      `1 No its not impressive. How can it be impressive when you have nothing to put Broly above super saiyan blue goku kaiokenx20 goku??

      2 Goku and vegeta  Barely got hit by broly during the  Super saiyan fight. they where way less injured than against jiren. . And what do you mean especially vegeta??? Broly had never fully Landed an actual blow against him when he was in super saiyan blue. the only thing he did was push them back and destroy there galick gun/kamehahama combo with his own energy attack. There where barely beat up. Goku was the one with the most injuries. Vegeta was fine in comparison to him

      3 You just straight up said Goku only goes into ultra instinct if he is in grave danger( more precisly is greatly pressured in a fight or seriously injured) yet he did not go into ultra instinct against Broly  who you  seem to present as a greater threat than Jiren or anybody at tournament of power(aside from zero proof). If broly was a greater threat than even Toppo why did he not Knock them out

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    • The One Who Speaks Like A Guy wrote:
      Goku goes UI only in very extreme situations.

      Such as getting his spirit bomb thown at himself,facing kefla with absolutely no stamina,etc.

      that too not at will

      Technically speaking the spirit bomb is the entire reason he can go Ultra instinct now.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:
      The One Who Speaks Like A Guy wrote:
      Goku goes UI only in very extreme situations.

      Such as getting his spirit bomb thown at himself,facing kefla with absolutely no stamina,etc.

      that too not at will

      Technically speaking the spirit bomb is the entire reason he can go Ultra instinct now.

      Yes, but that's a very misleading statement.

        Loading editor
    • He absorbed the Spirit Bomb to save himself, it forcefully broke his shell, his limit giving him more power and helping him awaken UI - Sign. Without the Spirit Bomb that would not have happened, he most likely would have ended up with SSGSS:Evolution like Vegeta did if the Spirit Bomb was never in the mix.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      The One Who Speaks Like A Guy wrote:
      Goku goes UI only in very extreme situations.

      Such as getting his spirit bomb thown at himself,facing kefla with absolutely no stamina,etc.

      that too not at will

      Technically speaking the spirit bomb is the entire reason he can go Ultra instinct now.
      Yes, but that's a very misleading statement.

      Eh,Im stil right . Let me just word it like this then. The U7 spirit bomb  being reflected back at him  reacted with his willpower and caused him to brake his shells to gain ultra instinct.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      The One Who Speaks Like A Guy wrote:
      Goku goes UI only in very extreme situations.

      Such as getting his spirit bomb thown at himself,facing kefla with absolutely no stamina,etc.

      that too not at will

      Technically speaking the spirit bomb is the entire reason he can go Ultra instinct now.
      Yes, but that's a very misleading statement.

      Eh,Im stil right . Let me just word it like this then. The U7 spirit bomb  being reflected back at him  reacted with his willpower and caused him to brake his shells to gain ultra instinct.

      But you still are not right, Whis literally said that the Spirit Bomb is not the reason why Goku went UI.

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    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:35, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote:


      NervousShipper wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      The One Who Speaks Like A Guy wrote:
      Goku goes UI only in very extreme situations.

      Such as getting his spirit bomb thown at himself,facing kefla with absolutely no stamina,etc.

      that too not at will

      Technically speaking the spirit bomb is the entire reason he can go Ultra instinct now.
      Yes, but that's a very misleading statement.
      Eh,Im stil right . Let me just word it like this then. The U7 spirit bomb  being reflected back at him  reacted with his willpower and caused him to brake his shells to gain ultra instinct.
      But you still are not right, Whis literally said that the Spirit Bomb is not the reason why Goku went UI.

      Um no. Whis clearly said the spirit bomb was the trigger(reason) for why he went Ultra instinct so no I am indeed correct. I dont have any idea  how you got the thought that Whis said otherwise

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    • Yes, but the Spirit Bomb itself is incedental. It was being overwhelmed that sent him into the state. If there was a death-ball of equal powerful being deflected back at him, it would have the same result.

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    • Pretty sure That what i tried to make clear in my rephrasal. Either way it does not change the fact that Monzy mon was wrong when he said I was incorrect as the spirit bomb is still the reason and Whis infact said that himself

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    • ChrisFit wrote:
      Shin the science guy wrote:
      Eh,Im stil right . Let me just word it like this then. The U7 spirit bomb  being reflected back at him  reacted with his willpower and caused him to brake his shells to gain ultra instinct.
      The Genki Dama only caused Goku to go Omen that one time. The other times he went Ultra Instinct Omen or Mastered Ultra Instinct had nothing to do with the Genki Dama. 

      I did not say it  Why he goes it all the time. Im saying It  was how he managed to gain the ability Ultra instinct

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    • ChrisFit
      ChrisFit removed this reply because:
      Going to Disable Account.
      02:34, April 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Gogeta has no auto-dodge, and we've seen that that's ridiculous.

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    • you dont know how insanely stronger they(goku and vegeta) got though(after the Top). fusion dance being a multiplier is only said by the super exiting guide(which only says that for gotenks) and would contradict say its above the potara(confirmed to be A+b mutiplied several times over)

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    • lemme get this clear.Do limit breaking shells reform over time?cause that seems to be the case.

      Gohan not going Potential Unleashed again without extreme training,Goku not being able to go UI at will,etc.

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    • Shin the science guy wrote: Pretty sure That what i tried to make clear in my rephrasal. Either way it does not change the fact that Monzy mon was wrong when he said I was incorrect as the spirit bomb is still the reason and Whis infact said that himself

      You said that it is the reason why Goku gained UI, when it was not. It was just there for Goku to break his limits, as part of the reason.

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    • Yes, people can only unlock their current potential. For example Old Kai only unlocked Gohans current potential in the Buu Arc, once the ToP came around Piccolo said it was only a fraction of Gohans hidden power so that means by the time of the ToP Gohan's potential had multiplied a lot. So when somebody gets their potential pulled out, it is only the CURRENT potential they have at the time.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: Pretty sure That what i tried to make clear in my rephrasal. Either way it does not change the fact that Monzy mon was wrong when he said I was incorrect as the spirit bomb is still the reason and Whis infact said that himself

      You said that it is the reason why Goku gained UI, when it was not. It was just there for Goku to break his limits, as part of the reason.

      Except it was. WHis clearly stated it was the spark that allowed  goku to gain it . watch the episode again

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    • who ever say ssj gogeta=mul goku is rather trolling or underestimating goku , mul goku was on par with full power jiren , ssj gogeta was weaker than full power lssj broly and had to powerup to ssgss to defeat him . so mul goku would beat ssj gogeta or even beat lssj broly . but as for ssgss gogeta , i think gogeta would win as he took down broly who i belive is stronger or equal to jiren at full power

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    • Shin the science guy wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote:

      Shin the science guy wrote: Pretty sure That what i tried to make clear in my rephrasal. Either way it does not change the fact that Monzy mon was wrong when he said I was incorrect as the spirit bomb is still the reason and Whis infact said that himself

      You said that it is the reason why Goku gained UI, when it was not. It was just there for Goku to break his limits, as part of the reason.

      Except it was. WHis clearly stated it was the spark that allowed  goku to gain it . watch the episode again

      ‘Precisely’

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