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  • After seeing the Broly Movie, who do you think is stronger now? Gogeta or Jiren?

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    • Broly is said to be the strongest opponent Goku and Vegeta have faced to date, Gogeta destroyed him like he was nothing. My money is on Gogeta.

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    • Jiren. if gogeta wasn't ultra instinct, then Broly was definitely not the strongest.

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    • The Saikyo Jump editorial office tells readers: "Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest. Those who trust Goku will win may lose confidence, so be careful."

      Uh they said he was so... unless some retcon is happening, yeah Broly is the strongest, and Gogeta would stomp Jiren. Personally I think even if Broly loses his “strongest opponent” title that either fusion will defeat him at this point.

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    • What we’re shown in the movie >>>>> someone saying something for hype

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    • Jiren was never actually called an enemy, only an opponent. Meaning the literal strongest person they fought period. Broly was only called the strongest ENEMY, because he was an Enemy when they fought. Broly is said to possibly be stronger than the God of Destruction(Beerus) and it Goku says pretty much this at the end of the movie, that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, while Pre-Potential power awokened Jiren was confirmed to be stronger than the Gods of Destruction including Belmod and Beerus. Jiren is still the most powerful person they ever faced, and that includes Broly. 

      "

      Statements by guidebooks and authors

      Jiren is the strongest opponent in Dragon Ball to date.[3]

      Jiren was a key player for Team Universe 11 during the Tournament of Power.[4]

      Jiren's power has reached the domain of the Gods of Destruction.[5]

      Jiren possesses unthinkably colossal ki.[6]

      Even with the X20 Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken, Goku is no match for Jiren.[7][8][9]

      Jiren's power is said to exceed that of the 12 Gods of Destruction.[10]

      "

      Statements matter the most in context and in date of the statement. Jiren's power does exceed the Gods of Destruction and that was made clear as of the last statement, while Broly's power is only possibly stronger than theirs. Jiren is still the top person they ever battled and that's that.

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    • You say statements matter yet ignore the most current ones, interesting logic.

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    • Opponent and enemy, are not the same thing. Goku saying that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, is not the same thing as Jiren being undeniably confirmed to be stronger than the GoD's including Beerus and Belmod.. and that was before he awakened his hidden power vs UI Goku. If you still don't get that, that's not my fault.

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    • Jiren is undoubtably stronger than Beerus and his counterparts. However you can’t simply ignore a statement because you feel the word is different.

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    • Of course you can. What matters is what’s shown on screen.

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    • Jiren and Broly have never been shown on screen together so what exactly are you going off of?

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    • The fights they had with Goku and Vegeta, obviously.

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    • Or the fact that Whis confirms Jiren(before he even awakened his hidden power) is stronger than the GoD's, while Goku only says Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus. 

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    • I think that's probably the most damning evidence here in favor of Jiren over Broly. Jiren was objectively confirmed to be stronger than the Gods of Destruction in "just" his base form. Then he awakened his hidden potential and got vastly more powerful still. While Ultra Instinct Goku still took him out, it still puts Jiren on a level far above the Gods of Destruction. If Goku isn't sure that Broly is stronger than Beerus, that doesn't bode well for Broly being stronger than Jiren.

      And the thing is, "might be" is quite a bit of a far cry from "definitely is, then powered up massively even beyond that." Hype statements nothwithstanding, I don't see any actual evidence that Broly is stronger and quite a bit that he's nowhere near Jiren's awakened power level.

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    • Why is the Saikyo Jump scan dubbed a hype statement?

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    • It uses vague language of the kind that is often translated thusly. Neither the statement, nor any other statement or feat shown in the movie, suggests Broly is as strong as Jiren. The closest we come is Goku thinking Broly might be stronger than Beerus. So it's in question whether or not he is.

      Jiren, on the other hand, was confirmed to be stronger than any of the Gods of Destruction in "just" his base form. He then powers up far beyond that level when he awakens his hidden power.

      There's simply no chance Broly is anywhere near as strong as Jiren. Whether or not he could stack up to Gogeta in any way we don't know, because there isn't enough information. The most we can infer is this:

      • If Broly is actually stronger than Beerus, it doesn't seem to be by much, and he has none of Beerus' skill or experience (though that's a different story), and we have to assume Goku included Broly's Full Power state in his assessment. Broly at Full Power was possibly able to compete with Super Saiyan Gogeta, but was completely dominated by Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta.

      • Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta is then far beyond the level of someone who we are assuming is somewhat stronger than Beerus (though we have no proof Broly actually is). Completely untouchable to someone at that level, in fact.

      • If we assume for these purposes that Broly is stronger than Beerus, and is hopelessly outclassed by Gogeta, we still don't know but can assume that Jiren's in the same boat. We don't know just how much stronger than Beerus is Jiren, but if they're both in that vague category, this is probably a safe assumption.

      • Conclusion: Jiren ends up the same as Broly. He might be able to compete with base or Super Saiyan Gogeta once he unlocks his hidden power, but would be helpless against Gogeta Blue. This also means that Gogeta Blue completely outclasses MUI Goku, and I am not sure that's the case.

      • Counterpoint: We don't know how big a boost Jiren gains from his hidden potential. It could be a truly massive power increase, which means MUI Goku and Jiren in his unlocked state are still stronger than Broly or Gogeta. This seems likely to me, but we just don't have enough evidence.

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    • I agree with pretty much everything you said, aside from a couple things. In DBS:Broly the manga is what should be used as it is what Toriyama has more to do with, he is much more hands on with Toyatoro. Currently it seems we are following the manga as Vegeta now uses the Super Saiyan Red form previously an ability only demonstrated in the manga, beyond that Goku and Vegeta also appear to be using the PSSB state against Broly which is not only stronger than the anime Blue form but also manga exclusive.

      I agree completely that Jiren is stronger than Beerus and his peers, but I don’t agree that Jiren is stronger than Broly. In the manga Goku and Vegeta combat a tired Jiren in their base forms(a losing battle albeit but they still combat him competently) this is following Jirens fight with UI Goku, though it was more like a massacre, now Goku and Vegeta are stronger, due to Saiyan genetics and what not, and are using a PSSB state far beyond what they used in the ToP. However in his SSCType form Broly utterly destroys them both, not only a higher form than what they fought Jiren with but they have increased exponentially from their experiences in the ToP, and this isn’t even his final form...

      To me from the timeline placement, him being stated to be the strongest by the Saikyo Jump Mag and the mentioned instances above I believe Broly in his Full Power Super Saiyan Broly form is stronger than Jiren. On the issue of UI Goku one thing to remember is that in both the anime(after Jiren’s power up and attempt on Goku’s friends which made Goku mad) and manga UI Goku destroyed Jiren, that isn’t to say I think UI Goku would win against Gogeta Blue by any stretch but I think he’d fair MUCH better than Jiren or Broly. Be a bit of an issue to get Gogeta without Goku fused in there for this fight to happen though.

      EDIT: I don’t believe Goku was going off of Broly’s full powered state as he himself never fought that form, only Gogeta did. An argument could be made for him knowing Gogeta’s experiences but I don’t believe he was referring to his “full power” form, in addition to this we don’t know how much stronger FPSS Broly is that CType.

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    • The anime is explicitly stated to be the canon this time around, and the manga should only be used to supplement details where it doesn't directly contradict the anime. It does in several places, and while I like the concept of how Goku attains Ultra Instinct in the manga, overall it was quite a let down.

      Right now, there is actual evidence that shows Jiren is stronger than Broly. The best thing Broly has to his name is Goku stating he might be stronger than Beerus. Jiren is stronger than Beerus, and that was before unveiling his true power, and also before unlocking his hidden potential and greatly powering up. What this means is, as simply as can be put: It's questionable whether or not Broly is stronger than Beerus. That means they're close in power. Jiren unquestionably is stronger than Beerus, then powers up way beyond that level.

      This can only mean Jiren is stronger than Broly. It's the only logical conclusion.

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    • Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren(What he is coined when he fights MUI Goku) could fight SSBlue Gogeta, who does not have Ultra Instincts auto dodge and auto attack abilities. In the end, I don't know if he would win.. but he would def put in work and go toe to toe with SSB Gogeta.

      Btw MUI Goku was only faster than BUW Jiren. Jiren was overpowering MUI Goku in blast battles and physical scuffles until Goku tapped more into his MUI speed, then BUW Jiren couldn't touch him outside of parrying some of his attacks.

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Burning_Ultimate_Warrior

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    • I don’t recall the anime being stated to be canon, I must have missed that. But the Broly movie is going off the manga storyline, which is why PSSB and Vegeta using Super Saiyan Red are a thing. Beyond that Toriyama has much more to do with the manga in contrast to the anime which have us Super Saiyan Anger, I don’t believe Goku was going off of Broly’s full powered state as he himself never fought that form, only Gogeta did. In addition to this we don’t know how much stronger FPSS Broly is than CType, putting him possibly at stronger than Beerus before his full power. With this in mind and the fact that I don’t believe the Saikyo Jump mag to be simple hype, I believe Broly is at least as strong as Jiren.

      UI Goku after getting a rage boost surppased Jiren hands down, Jiren didn’t stand a chance. More speed doesn’t equate to what Goku did to Jiren after his heinous act, plus we all know how much power can pop up from one of the characters getting angry.

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    • Anger boosts aren't permanent. Only if a new state or form is gained.

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren(What he is coined when he fights MUI Goku) could fight SSBlue Gogeta, who does not have Ultra Instincts auto dodge and auto attack abilities. In the end, I don't know if he would win.. but he would def put in work and go toe to toe with SSB Gogeta.

      Btw MUI Goku was only faster than BUW Jiren. Jiren was overpowering MUI Goku in blast battles and physical scuffles until Goku tapped more into his MUI speed, then BUW Jiren couldn't touch him outside of parrying some of his attacks.

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Burning_Ultimate_Warrior

      Jiren initially overpowered his attacks with raw energy, but Goku kept enduring everything Jiren threw at him. And he grew stronger and faster during the fight, to the point that Jiren could not keep up with him. In that final clash, Jiren could neither fend off Goku's attacks nor land any of his own, and was constantly shocked by Goku's endurance. After he stands up again and his speed has increased, he flat-out overpowers Jiren. While his friends are explaining his motivations, that little silhouette battle shown in the center of the screen even shows him using an energy attack on Jiren that pushes through, then besting him in melee, and then the rest of the fight is clearly BUW Jiren simply being outclassed in speed, power, and durability.

      I don't think I agree that we know he could stand up to Gogeta. We don't have enough information on relative power levels to know for sure. What we know for sure:

      Broly is around Beerus' strength. He stands no chance against Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta. This means that Blue Gogeta is vastly beyond Beerus' power level. So was Jiren. We don't know how much each of them were. I'm guessing quite a bit, and that you're right, Jiren could probably give Gogeta trouble. Which means MUI Goku may even be stronger on his own than Blue Gogeta, which is both ridiculous and awesome. It really is the supreme power.

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    • Goku had a rage boost, those aren't permanent unless he goes into a new state or form with the boost.. he didn't transform again he was just in MUI and got enraged was all without the rage boost he only has speed over Jiren.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      I don’t recall the anime being stated to be canon, I must have missed that. But the Broly movie is going off the manga storyline, which is why PSSB and Vegeta using Super Saiyan Red are a thing. Beyond that Toriyama has much more to do with the manga in contrast to the anime which have us Super Saiyan Anger, I don’t believe Goku was going off of Broly’s full powered state as he himself never fought that form, only Gogeta did. In addition to this we don’t know how much stronger FPSS Broly is than CType, putting him possibly at stronger than Beerus before his full power. With this in mind and the fact that I don’t believe the Saikyo Jump mag to be simple hype, I believe Broly is at least as strong as Jiren.

      UI Goku after getting a rage boost surppased Jiren hands down, Jiren didn’t stand a chance. More speed doesn’t equate to what Goku did to Jiren after his heinous act, plus we all know how much power can pop up from one of the characters getting angry.

      The movie doesn't seem to have Perfected Super Saiyan Blue, nor follow the manga that I can tell. The manga, like with the rest of Super, seems to be an adaptation, but I don't think the manga even covers the whole movie. It skips past it by stating Goku and Vegeta had to work together and came out stronger than ever, but is there even a full manga adaptation of the story?

      Goku would still recognize Broly's power level after fusion. They could still sense him, after all, and still carry the memories of their time as Gogeta. I don't believe there's any reason to assume Goku meant anything but Broly's fullest power when comparing him to Beerus, or there wouldn't be any room for doubt. The fact that he's not even sure Broly is as strong or stronger than Beerus means they're close, which means 100% certain that Jiren is stronger than Broly by a large degree—especially considering the so-called "Burning Ultimate Warrior" power-up he gains.

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    • Without the temp rage boost Jiren only loses to MUI Goku in speed, I agree with that

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    • He clearly loses to him even before that, though. Goku overpowers him in every category just before that, and then Jiren lashes out by throwing the blast at the stands. Then Goku goes even further and finishes Jiren off in a final series of attacks. Even before that, though, they show him even so much as attacking Jiren with energy successfully. After Krillin's plea, and Goku stands up again, Jiren is totally outclassed from then on.

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCZdRQkIze4 not quite and this doesn't even show the part where Jiren kicks him to the ground super hard

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    • That video is literally the part right before the one I just talked about. Watch the rest of the fight. It's exactly as I said: Goku stands up again and completely outclasses Jiren for the rest of the fight.

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    • Khai literally says "Son Goku's Speed has increased even more!" when Goku stands back up when Krillin encourages him and he begins fighting again, and from then Goku's speed slowly increased until Jiren couldn't keep up with it. I am literally watching the episode right now. Jiren has more power but Goku slowly gets faster until Jiren can't touch him. Goku only outclassed him in speed and that was it. edit

      https://imgur.com/a/HDKExyN

      Only once Goku gets a temp rage boost from Jiren throwing the blast at the stands, does he also gain enough power to get above Jiren in power too.

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    • No, that is clearly not it. Goku's speed increased even more, and then they show him completely overpowering Jiren. Watch even that little silhouette fight as Roshi and the others explain Goku's relationship with the other characters. Goku uses an energy attack on Jiren, totally overpowers him in melee. I have the episode on Verve right now (which I'd share but I think you have to have an account). It's not a matter of interpretation or anything; Khai and Belmod are in disbelief, and then Piccolo and Roshi explain that Goku's friendships give him strength, and how he draws people in while fighting. Goku is shown overpowering Jiren completely.

      Jiren only lands a single kick after that, and never another blow. Goku dodges all his attacks, overwhelms him in speed and power, lands that awesome dashing flip punch to Jiren's chest, and Jiren is completely bested. Then he attacks Goku's friends and Goku smashes him even harder.

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    • I am literally watching it right now, Goku got a few hits in, Jiren got a few hits in. The silouhette battle is not showing Goku out-classing him like some one sided battle. I can give you a link to the fight rn. I could screenshot every single frame to show you if I had the patience for that. Instead go and pause the video every frame and you'll see. Goku only started gaining the upper hand in power once he got mad at Jiren for the blast thrown at the stands, before that he only had the upper hand in speed.

      "As their fight continued, Jiren was at first unable to register Ultra Instinct Goku's intense speed and movement, having been cut on the cheek without him first realizing it. Despite this, Jiren still managed to fight Ultra Instinct Goku, but was completely outclassed, unable to keep up with Goku's speed and match him blow for blow. However, once Jiren's fear of losing rose, he remembered his past when his parents were murdered and how strength was absolute, helping him to become unquestionably the strongest, Jiren's hidden potential was unlocked, causing him to break through his previous limits, unleashing a storm of power that sets the entire arena ablaze with his ki. Having broken his previous limits, Jiren experienced an enormous increase in power, magnifying his ki drastically. Jiren, with his newfound might, was able to clash and go toe to toe with Ultra Instinct Goku, fighting on par with the Saiyan, even gaining a slight advantage. Jiren possesses greater raw power than Ultra Instinct Goku in this state, able to overpower Goku's full-power Kamehameha with his own fully-charged Power Impact, and knock him to the ground with another Power Impact. However, once Jiren attempted to attack Team Universe 7 in the spectators' stands, Goku's fury exploded, allowing the latter to once again dominate Jiren in their fight, albeit Jiren managed to block and dodge most of Goku's blows. Jiren proved to be no match for the angered Saiyan, whose speed had increased to the point where he was able to dodge all of Jiren's blows and even manage to bypass and dodge a flurry of Power Impacts shaped into streams of energy. Jiren was then uppercutted hard enough that he was briefly dazed, though he quickly managed to recover."

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    • Yes, it is. I have the episode up right now. Besides the flurries of blows, only Goku lands any actual hits. Including an energy attack. You can do the frame screens if you want, but objectively Goku dominates the fight from the time he stands up. The only attack Jiren lands is that one kick, and that's it. Goku blocks, dodges, or parries every single other blow, and lands all the decisive attacks, like that flying punch to the chest.

      Events onscreen show Goku overpowering Jiren cleanly and without any room for doubt. He's in complete control from the time he stands up again, with Jiren only able to land one single attack, which is not a decisive blow. Goku utterly dominates him.

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    • No he does not, Jiren manages to parry and block most of Goku's attacks and only a few attacks actually land. The reason Jiren can't land as much attacks as Goku did at that point is very, super easy to understand.. Goku had gained enough speed to make that happen. it is even quite literally commented on in the episode. Jiren had the edge in power until the moment Goku got the rage boost, and then Goku had the speed AND power advantage. How is that not easy to understand?? As a matter of fact, me and the wikia disagree with you because the facts, the wiki, and the episode itself support what I am saying. So don't bother responding to me about that again. Back to the subject from before. BUW Jiren would go toe to toe with SSB Gogeta easily, winning in the end?? Idk.

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    • Okay? Those articles are often not well-written, in dire need of editing for grammar and content. Also, I'm not referring to the article-writer's interpretation of events. I'm striaght-up recounting what is very clearly shown in the actual episode itself. Once Goku stands up, he completely dominates Jiren, who is able to land a single strike and that's it, while Goku overcomes all of his best attacks. Even before the rage boost.

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    • If Goku’s rage boost is only counted as temporary then so is Jiren’s infact I garuntee you that BUW Jiren will never be seen again because it wasn’t permanent. MUI Goku was at the very least equal to Jiren, with Goku edging out as stronger. The debate is ridiculous because we all know who won in the end, Goku meaning MUI Goku is stronger than Jiren.

      In the Broly movie Goku says you might even be stronger than Beerus, meaning that he is at least as strong as Beerus. In ToP since we are going off the anime for some reason, Jiren before meeting MUI Goku in battle is fighting against KKX20Blue Goku and ESSB Vegeta he is visibly able to beat them without much trouble but has to take the fight seriously. Broly fights the PSSB Goku and Vegeta(a form comparable to the KKX20Blue/ESSB forms) in SSCType and is winning so badly they must retreat. Jumping straight to Gogeta Blue is too hasty, let’s do a little scaling, the SSCType form Broly was in was being destroyed by Gogeta in his normal SS form, Gogeta Blue was inconceivably stronger than Broly. The fact that Broly(in whichever form) was counted as at least strong as Beerus means Gogeta in his SS form dwarfs Beerus already, meaning his Blue form is just stupid powerful, and way above Beerus.

      Now to Jiren, he wasn’t stated to absolutely dwarf the divine beings he was simply stronger than them. Even with his BUW power up(which is temporary) Jiren is at best matching Base-SS Gogeta, Blue Gogeta destroys Jiren hands down.

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    • BUW is never stated to be temporary. He just doesn't use it while he's talking to Toppo on that planet because he literally has no reason to. Although I will admit that SSBE has also not been shown nor talked about ever again so I think they are trying to retcon some things from the tournament, as in the Broly novels and Broly Movie, and even the Broly panels in chapter 42 Goku and Vegeta are only using SSB and PSSB.. so maybe BUW did in fact get retconned too.

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    • BUW was a limit breaking power that Jiren achieved during the ToP.

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    • So its like Kaioken then. Meaning he can use it when he wants to

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    • Kaiōken is a technique that can be learned, this is a sudden surge of limit breaking power which temporarily gives you access to great power. So it’d be more like Super Saiyan Rage where we will never see it again.

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    • Trunks used Rage multiple times. Vegeta transformed in and out of SSBE Multiple times. Yet we haven't heard or seen a single thing of SSBE since the ToP. I think they just decided to retcon these forms.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Trunks used Rage multiple times. Vegeta transformed in and out of SSBE Multiple times. Yet we haven't heard or seen a single thing of SSBE since the ToP. I think they just decided to retcon these forms.

      Remember, those forms were Anime exclusive. The movie actually follows the Manga timeline, not the Anime's.

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    • and in the manga Vegeta has a new form too, he doesn't even have that form vs Broly.

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    • Which is why anime is better

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      No he does not, Jiren manages to parry and block most of Goku's attacks and only a few attacks actually land. The reason Jiren can't land as much attacks as Goku did at that point is very, super easy to understand.. Goku had gained enough speed to make that happen. it is even quite literally commented on in the episode. Jiren had the edge in power until the moment Goku got the rage boost, and then Goku had the speed AND power advantage. How is that not easy to understand?? As a matter of fact, me and the wikia disagree with you because the facts, the wiki, and the episode itself support what I am saying. So don't bother responding to me about that again. Back to the subject from before. BUW Jiren would go toe to toe with SSB Gogeta easily, winning in the end?? Idk.

      Your interpretation of the events simply does not match what is shown onscreen. Sorry. The article bit you quoted also doesn't really agree with you, but is in need of cleaning up anyway. Objective fact shows that Goku cleanly dominates Jiren from the moment he stands up. Jiren is able to land one glancing blow and that's it. Goku counters everything else he does, and overpowers him decisively before ever getting the rage boost. You're ignoring what happens after the speed comment as if that comment is all that matters, but it is only a part of the events clearly shown onscreen.

      Articles and interpretations are only secondary sources, and certainly I'm not going to refer to an article over the actual episode itself. The episode itself is the primary source, and depicts events in only a single way. Goku overpowers Jiren from the moment he stands up again.

      Because this feels like it's getting too confrontational, I am going to leave it there. There's no sense arguing about it, anyway: the episode shows Goku overpowering Jiren in the silhouette fight, and afterward, Jiren is only ever able to land a single non-decisive hit.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      So its like Kaioken then. Meaning he can use it when he wants to

      It may be like Ultra Instinct, honestly, since it was pretty clearly a counterpart of it: Jiren can only do it when pushed to the edge by a supremely powerful foe. I mean, we don't have evidence of this; we don't have any actual proof whether or not he can do it at will or not, so that's just an educated guess. But if I had to bet zenny on it, I'd say that Jiren can no more automatically control his powered up state than Goku can go into Ultra Instinct.

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    • Gogeta would win. In either anime nor manga does it state Jiren is stronger than Beerus they both say he's stronger than a god of destruction. Only those who say he is statements by writers and since people chose to ignore statements about Broly than those can be ignored too. And if going by feats from on screen then Gogeta would destroy Jiren.

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    • https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Jiren#Power his page and the sources say otherwise, he is stronger than the GoD's and that includes Belmod and Beerus. Don't argue your headcanon as fact. I'm just going to ignore you from this point onward if you keep this up.

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    • And where in the anime does it say " Jiren is definetly mor powerful than Beerus?". It doesn't, don't talk me about head canon when you're doing the same thing. Ingore me all you want but bullcrap is still bullcrap and last time I checked I don't really care if you ignore me.

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    • What about "So the rumors were true, there exists a mortal even a God of destruction cannot beat" is hard for you to understand?? Whis said that about Jiren. At Goku's last usage of UI Sign in ToP, Beerus admits Goku may be stronger than him. Jiren was stronger than UI Sign Goku at any point, and that was before he used his maximum power, and before he awakened his hidden power. Instead of hanging onto your headcanon go and do some real research, stop instigating and being condescending then acting shocked when others are rude back to you.

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    • Beerus never once said that, that was a statement made by the writers. And Frieza is someone a GoD can’t beat since he resisted Sidra’s power even stated in the anime that it would have been difficult for him to Destroy Frieza. Last time I checked UI Sign was even with Jiren before Goku mastered it. Again as dragon said a God of Destruction not all so yea at the time Jiren was weaker than Beerus.

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    • lmao and you think that invalidates the statement?? hahahahahaha

      Go back and watch the episode because you are severely misremembering things.

      "Jiren's power is said to exceed that of the 12 Gods of Destruction.[10]"

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5OrZEdIv08

      Jiren was never in any kind of trouble against Goku with UI Sign.

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      What about "So the rumors were true, there exists a mortal even a God of destruction cannot beat" is hard for you to understand?? Whis said that about Jiren. At Goku's last usage of UI Sign in ToP, Beerus admits Goku may be stronger than him. Jiren was stronger than UI Sign Goku at any point, and that was before he used his maximum power, and before he awakened his hidden power. Instead of hanging onto your headcanon go and do some real research, stop instigating and being condescending then acting shocked when others are rude back to you.

      Yea I'm so shocked someone on the internet is being rude cause I don't agree them, I'm so shocked. And how am I being condesending? Because I'm sticking to my guns about my "head canon" that it was never stated in anime or manga, prior to the end of ToP, that Jiren was stronger than Beerus? Guess what pal the fandom having being using that since the beginning of ToP yet I've never heard them be called condesending. How about you stop trying to get another fight started when it already ended

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    • That's you causing problems, not me. You and those other two.

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    • Yea ok when you sent that message it was an hour apart from my last one yet you felt the need to put your input in after we both basically said we don't care

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    • That wasn't me, that was FlatZone, genius. I commented after you, he commented before you. He seems to be using the sources and facts here, while you bunch are not, so you gang up on him and say snarky bs. Not my fault you bunch have issues.

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    • What was the point and send me a link. Especially when does a back up that claim. Finish the rest of the episode cause only giving half thus false info. Because I remember after that they start fighting on equal terms than Goku gain an advantage than powered up to perfect UI. Let me know if I’m right about the other half of that episode, since you know I misremembering things

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      That wasn't me, that was FlatZone, genius. I commented after you, he commented before you.

      Thats exatly what I sayed "when you sent that message it was an hour apart from my last one" meaning it was after my last message but ok whatever. And we sent 3 messages to each other its like we've been fighting this whole fourm

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    • That’s these guys MO, welcome to the fandom.

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSyLn0hmkFs

      Listen to Belmod and Jirens comments. Before Goku got MUI Jiren was above UI Sign Goku. When Jiren awakend his hidden power, he had the raw power advantage against Goku, until he sent that blast at the stands, and Goku got a rage boost. Before that Goku only had the speed and auto dodge/attack keeping him above Jiren.

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    • Don't cry to me, either of you. Debate right, with sourced given statements and sourced info from this very wiki and from Kanzenshuu and you wouldn't be so hurt rn. I'm not going to stop using these facts just because you don't like it.

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    • Again it doesn’t state anything and Kanzenshuu is for Z I’ve never read anything by them about Super.

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    • Stop trying to change the facts, no one said stop using facts, no one cries to you. You’re a jerk and ignore sources comepletely, no one is hurt except you.

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    • LMAO really?? You must not actually go to Kanzenshuu then.

      And me changing facts?? That's you. Don't complain to me, do better.

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    • LOL I have all the proof in my comments GO BACK AND TRY READING. I didn’t change any facts, I state them and you ignore them.

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    • And what about those who choose to ignore the statements made about Broly. I don’t see you attacking them, thats cause you agree with them. Yet we’re the ignorant assholes cause we don’t agree with you.

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    • Now you're putting words in my mouth?? Nice.

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    • Really I’ve just been following your posts

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    • "attacking them, thats cause you agree with them. Yet we’re the ignorant assholes cause we don’t agree with you." I never attacked anybody, and I never called anybody ignorant assholes. You are the one trying to cause problems. Help yourself.

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    • Words in your mouth? You clearly agree that Broly was weaker than Jiren and ignored the statement released. Cmon keep up with your own comments.

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    • Really you went after dragon cause they were being condescending. The only reason we’re arguing is cause you claim “We’re ignoring statements” when all we’re doing is simply stating what we saw and then say its our head canon.

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    • Clearly context is not something you two understand. Read my last post here again.

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    • Clearly reading isn’t your strong suit, you attacked dragon for being “condescending” but not FlatZone or yourself, and he didn’t say you said we were ignorant ********. It was an analogy, do try to keep up.

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    • No, that's you two attacking people, like how you are attacking me right now because you're hurt. :)

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    • I attacked dragon? I did? Hm let’s go back and read the comments... hm.. Nope! Only you. Aw, losing the debate while you’ve been being an insufferable prick so you feel hurt now? Allow me to quote you, not my problem.

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    • What do I have to be hurt about if you think Jiren can beat Gogeta than good for you. Just don’t go attacking people cause that don’t agree. Name one time I attacked you. I never once went after you saying crap or insulting cause we don’t agree

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    • To be honest, the fact goku thinks broly may be stonger then Beerus yet we know for a fact Jiren is way stronger then any god of destruction should solve this. And yes, hype statements are made before every fight in DBZ. It happens. 

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    • I think Jiren is stronger than ssb gogeta. XD. That's just what I think. Stick to what you think is true and wait till we get actual facts regarding the matter.

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    • A FANDOM user
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