FANDOM

7,167 Pages

  • Alright let’s see... First fought Beerus as a SSG which would of turned the universe into a void and destroy it (There universe is 3 times more then ours which makes him equal to 3 universes) thennnn he managed to absorb it and turn super Saiyan which would turn him to 50 times universal which would equal to 150 of our universe. Vegeta managed to destroy the Hyber Time Chamber which is a different dimension and as you know, Goku is stronger. He managed to shake the world of void when he turned Ultra Instinct Sign. That’s about it. I’m a Gokutard.

      Loading editor
    • Powerful enough to see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch.

        Loading editor
    • Beerus was afraid of Goku's SSBxKK.

        Loading editor
    • Beerus was afraid at how fast Goku was catching up.

        Loading editor
    • Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.

        Loading editor
    • Base Goku and Base Vegeta now Surpass SS3 Gotenks which = Super Buu. In fact they are much stronger than Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks considering how easily base Copy Vegeta toyed with SS3 Gotenks and then defeated him like nothing. Gohan at ToP in base is equal to Goku and Vegeta in base. If SPCell had the power to blow away the Solar System, then you can guess just how strong they are.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.

      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.

      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

      Gotta love those vsbattles guys. They set up an incoherent and flawed ranking system based on faulty premises, then claim that it applies to every single franchise, because it's "logical".

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.
      Gotta HATE those vsbattles guys. They set up an incoherent and flawed ranking system based on faulty premises, then claim that it applies to every single franchise, because it's "logical".

      Edited for accuracy and spite.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone
      FlatZone removed this reply because:
      too mean considering he didn't come and insult anybody
      03:11, November 21, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Aww were you insulting me? It's okay Flat, I still ike you.

        Loading editor
    • Not you, the vswiki guy lol

        Loading editor
    • We don’t know the multiplier for SSB but let’s say it’s 500,000x, if that’s the case then RoF Goku would be 500,000x universal, which means 1,500,000 of our universes.Btw I have a feeling this post is going to be a complete mess.

        Loading editor
    • Dude... don't start this.

        Loading editor
    • Strong enough. Currently he's using perfected ssb form, and his power increased in that form.  He will be 20 times stronger than him at TOP.

      by my view SSB is 5125,000,000 times stronger than base.

        Loading editor
    • Gogeta Omni wrote: Stromg enough. Currently he's using perfected ssb form, and his power increased in that form.  He will be 20 times stronger than him at TOP.

      by my view SSB is 5125,000,000 times stronger than base.

      Mine is 5,000,000,000

        Loading editor
    • ohmylord...

        Loading editor
    • I think we’re long past Super Saiyan forms having multipliers, at this point I believe it’s just “stronger than before”. Logically at this point he would have done Super Saiyan 2 or 3 Blue but Kaio-Ken Blue eliminates the need for either, unless SSB2 had some insanely different power level which I could definitely see happening, Goku could even use Kaiōken on the Blue 2-3. He is definitely on the verge of surpassing Beerus, he already has in Ultra Instinct.

        Loading editor
    • Alvin3000alvarez
      Alvin3000alvarez removed this reply because:
      I need to Read back Rules Wiki.
      09:50, November 26, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • ... there is literally not a single beneficial or logical reason to include “Goku dragon all super anime:”. What are you doing?

        Loading editor
    • What’s wrong with DBS Anime Goku?

        Loading editor
    • We know where it’s from. We know who has it.

        Loading editor
    • Maybe he just wanted to make sure you knew what he was talking about.

        Loading editor
    • ... no

        Loading editor
    • Maybe ...

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:
      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

      '4D is not a concept used' 

      So are we supposed to ignore the feats he has shown? Let's calculate.

      If Goku shook the world of void, which is supposedly nothing, infinitely.

      We know that's 3D, but if Goku is powerful enough to effect INFINITE 3D, that would make him, or at least his attack potency, 4D. 

      Excuse me for trying to powerscale. I'll let you use your hasty generalizations in peace now.

        Loading editor
    • They already said Goku was universe in base, I’m not super duper smart so I don’t know what 4D is, but that much is already stated by when he and Vegeta became the level of Super Saiyan Red in base form and the NUMEROUS times they have become insanely stronger.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

      '4D is not a concept used' 

      So are we supposed to ignore the feats he has shown? Let's calculate.

      If Goku shook the world of void, which is supposedly nothing, infinitely.

      We know that's 3D, but if Goku is powerful enough to effect INFINITE 3D, that would make him, or at least his attack potency, 4D. 

      Excuse me for trying to powerscale. I'll let you use your hasty generalizations in peace now.

      That's not how dimensions work. Drop the vsbattles and pick up a book some time.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: They already said Goku was universe in base, I’m not super duper smart so I don’t know what 4D is, but that much is already stated by when he and Vegeta became the level of Super Saiyan Red in base form and the NUMEROUS times they have become insanely stronger.

      No, they didn't. No official statement was made about that because "universe in base" is a made-up term by a bunch of nerds who don't know physics or mathematics.

        Loading editor
    • Actually on this very wiki you can find out, you don’t need math or physics to watch TV and listen. Super Saiyan Red was universe level at least, Goku and Vegeta are STRONGER than that in U6 Destroyers arc IN BASE due to absorbing the form into it. You don’t need “Official Statemnets” to extrapolate from what they literally put in front of you. And the fact that you’re here debating with us shows you’re one of those nerds so, yeah.

      In addition to that, mathematics and physics aren’t really able to be applied in this or really any comic series, has a scientist ever actually blown up the universe? Or gone to the edge? No, they haven’t. So anything they say is “For certain” is a THEORY as in HEAVILY supported but no, not 100% proven.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: Actually on this very wiki you can find out, you don’t need math or physics to watch TV and listen. Super Saiyan Red was universe level at least, Goku and Vegeta are STRONGER than that in U6 Destroyers arc IN BASE due to absorbing the form into it. You don’t need “Official Statemnets” to extrapolate from what they literally put in front of you. And the fact that you’re here debating with us shows you’re one of those nerds so, yeah.

      At least this nerd knows physics and mathematics and doesn't insist that an incoherent and flawed model based on faulty premises must apply to every franchise.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly I don’t even know what 4D is, and I’m not going to go find out because it doesn’t sounds very useful. All I’m saying is that Goku and Vegeta are Universe in base I don’t say 4D because again, I don’t know what that is. But at the very least don’t discredit someone because that’s the model they use, if it’s faulty it’s their faulty model to use. And if 4D describes a universe, then they’re simply saying they are universe level in base.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: Honestly I don’t even know what 4D is, and I’m not going to go find out because it doesn’t sounds very useful. All I’m saying is that Goku and Vegeta are Universe in base I don’t say 4D because again, I don’t know what that is. But at the very least don’t discredit someone because that’s the model they use, if it’s faulty it’s their faulty model to use. And if 4D describes a universe, then they’re simply saying they are universe level in base.

      A faulty model leads to faulty conclusions, as does faulty logic. Understanding the general concept of dimensions is more useful than you think, and is required if you want to make statements like "so and so is 4D" and actually know what you're talking about. Same with "universe level in base" or anything else.

        Loading editor
    • Bottom line is, you can't simultaneously pretend your model is somehow logical and/or scientific while also claiming that it's OK that it's illogical and unscientific.

        Loading editor
    • Scientific, again is unproven, it’s just as illogical as going off of your personal opinion, scientists have never blown up a universe so they do not know what it takes or who can. However if the series itself states they are universe level in base, THAT is concrete you can go off of that. And if one of the ways someone knows how to describe a universe is 4D then you can surely understand what they mean without knowing physics or mathematics.

        Loading editor
    • The series itself has never stated that. You inferred it by filtering events through your own biases and your faulty model and, predictably, reached a faulty conclusion.

      If you want to pretend to be a scientist and pretend your opinions are logical and/or scientific, you should at least endeavor to learn what it is that you're trying to emulate. My "opinion", as you called it, is backed up by my real knowledge of real science, as opposed to a few buzzwords I learned on a random wiki.

        Loading editor
    • If just like to add that it’s nice to have someone who takes only stated things in the series as facts for said series. Thank you, Orion.

        Loading editor
    • Kind of an odd compliment given our past discussions regarding "canon", but thanks.

        Loading editor
    • Okay, you must not be capable of reading or you just negelect to, so let’s break this down. The series has stated they are universe level by showing them absorbing Super Saiyan Red into their base, so no it’s not my opinion, it’s not my bias, it’s your idiocy. The fact that you cannot watch/read a series and understand it is baffling to me. I haven’t learned any buzzwords in this wiki everything I know is from the anime/manga itself, I don’t pretend to know real science I have shown that I know this series, what “real science” shows that people can grow monkey tails, or have glowing hair, or move beyond the speed of light(which is scientifically impossible) you have as broken of a model as you claim Synergy did. What “real science” tells you the mass in the whole universe? What “real science” tells you what is necessary to destroy a whole universe? What “real science” experiment have you done to prove this theory? The fact of the matter is you don’t know what your talking about, and need to make an endeavor to learn before you spew out your nonesense as to what does and doesn’t make sense. You are biased, stubborn and completely unable to make clear decisions for yourself without some official statement, even though it is right in front of your face in the very series you supposedly watch/read.

        Loading editor
    • The series has not stated any such thing because the series does not recognize nor follow your flawed model.

        Loading editor
    • Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

        Loading editor
    • Since you don’t seem to be able to read, it’s called super saiyan god. Not red.

        Loading editor
    • I call it red, have a problem with that?

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

      No such thing has ever been stated in the series. It is fanon, plain and simple. Like I told the other guy, drop the vsbattles and pick up a book.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: I call it red, have a problem with that?

      No IronBULL, no problem

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote: Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

      No such thing has ever been stated in the series. It is fanon, plain and simple. Like I told the other guy, drop the vsbattles and pick up a book.

      Try reading the wiki then tell people what they should drop, drop your books and pick up the manga sometime.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote: Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

      No such thing has ever been stated in the series. It is fanon, plain and simple. Like I told the other guy, drop the vsbattles and pick up a book.

      Try reading the wiki then tell people what they should drop, drop your books and pick up the manga sometime.

      Where does the wiki or the comic say "Goku is now universal in base"? I know: nowhere. That's because that is a fan-made term.

        Loading editor
    • Okay so, you’re telling me, you have NEVER read ANY part of the wiki that told you goku can now use the raw might of a Super Saiyan Red in base? Seriously? GO LOOK.

        Loading editor
    • SSGod was not universal destruction level, it takes the power of at least 2 Super Saiyan Gods(Beerus was only matching Goku in their fight) in one to do that. Also no, God-like Saiyan(SSG like power in base form) is not as strong Super Saiyan God, its just much stronger than Super Saiyan 2 and 3 and the proof is that Vegeta and Goku STILL use SSG afterwards. So SSGod x2 without holding back has the power to destroy the Universe and that's it. That means no holding back and releasing full power in one attack.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: Okay so, you’re telling me, you have NEVER read ANY part of the wiki that told you goku can now use the raw might of a Super Saiyan Red in base? Seriously? GO LOOK.

      That's not the same as saying "Goku is universe in base". No such statement has been made; that's just fanon.

        Loading editor
    • Yep. It’s a shame Red doesn’t know the difference between a statement and an inference.

        Loading editor
    • 5652554D-ABA3-4A6E-BA31-C68676F9B5B7
        Loading editor
    • Are you so bent on being right you ignore plain facts? Because if so I have no reason to continue wasting my time talking to you.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not ignoring facts; I'm dismissing what you've inferred from them, because you're using a demonstrably flawed system.

        Loading editor
    • Let me ask you this if Super Saiyan could theoretically destroy a Star, and he previously could not in base, then he learned to use the might of a Super Saiyan in base, that would make him star level in base would it not? Same gosh darn principle, not disproved, dismissed by someone who doesn’t want to admit when they’re wrong.

        Loading editor
    • "Star level" is not a term nor scale used in this series. Stop using fan terms.

        Loading editor
    • I said theoretically, answer the question.

        Loading editor
    • It's a loaded question that already assumes your faulty and fanon model to be true. Just because you ask a question doesn't mean I have to answer it, and doesn't mean the question makes sense. Here's an example:

      Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:
      "Star level" is not a term nor scale used in this series. Stop using fan terms.

      So how are we supposed to scale them then? If we are measuring someone's AP, we say, "so and so can destroy a planet."

      Meaning, p l a n e t - l e v e l

        Loading editor
    • Assumes my model is right? What model am I using? Super Saiyan Red was destroying the universe when clashing with Beerus, this puts him with the destructive capacity of a universe. He uses the raw might of this form in base. What does that tell you? And I’m not using fan terms, if a track runner can run 100km, that is counted as a feat and he is able to run 100km on record. i.e. NOT A FAN TERM a common sense term.

      And as a bonus, since I’m nice like that, I don’t have a wife.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Assumes my model is right? What model am I using? Super Saiyan Red was destroying the universe when clashing with Beerus, this puts him with the destructive capacity of a universe. He uses the raw might of this form in base. What does that tell you? And I’m not using fan terms, if a track runner can run 100km, that is counted as a feat and he is able to run 100km on record. i.e. NOT A FAN TERM a common sense term.

      And as a bonus, since I’m nice like that, I don’t have a wife.

      Thank you sir.

        Loading editor
    • @SecretSynergy No, thank you, finally someone else who uses common sense instead of fancy terms labeled “real science” and doesn’t dismiss what is plain in front of their face.

        Loading editor
    • You two keep up the echo chamber. It really bolsters the illusion that you're not just using fanon terms.

        Loading editor
    • Tell me, how can you go through life ignoring blatant facts in service to your own opinion?

        Loading editor
    • First, you tell me how you deal with people and things that don't fit into your worldview, just so I get some context of why you think it's OK to apply the same logic to various different things.

        Loading editor
    • I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

        Loading editor
    • Super Perfect Cell had enough power to destroy the Solar System. SSGod Goku vs Beerus using the same amount of power clashing = 1/3 or 1/4 the power to destroy the universe considering they said it would take 3 or 4 of their clashes to do it. Meaning it would take 3 or 4 Super Saiyan God's to do that at full power. So no, base Goku, Super Saiyan God Goku, and God-like Saiyan Goku could not destroy the universe. He would need to be 3-4 times as powerful as he is as a Super Saiyan God AND use his full power to do that.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.

        Loading editor
    • In episode 12, when Super Saiyan Red Goku and Beerus were punching each other, the shock waves generated from their clash were so powerful that they were destroying everything in the universe. Several distant planets and stars were shown to be disintegrated by the destructive force of the shock waves and Elder Kai estimated that in just 3 clashes, the entire universe will turn into a vacuum of nothingness.

      Goku scales to universe level because he matched Beerus' punch with the exact same force and angle to cancel out the effect of destroying the entire universe. At that instance, both Goku and Beerus were using equal amounts of power.

      And if you want to say the shockwaves we’re getting stronger and that’s the only way it was destroying the universe, no Goku knew about the collateral damage the shock waves were causing. That's why he was trying to perfect the nullification technique in the first 2 tries. Since it was not perfected during the first 2 punches, the residual energy which was not nullified in the clash, resulted in the generation of the shock waves. Still, thanks to this incomplete cushioning effect, Goku at least managed to reduce the intensity of these shock waves near him and protect the Earth and Solar System. But as the shock waves went further away, Goku's cushioning effect on them also decreased. And thus, it appeared to Elder Kai that the waves were growing stronger the further they went.

      And, as we all know, Cell is Solar System level and when he and Gohan SS2 were clashing the only thing in danger was the planet, the PLANET yet Cell, and by POWER SCALING Gohan SS2, were solar system level. Which stands to reason what they put in danger in with their clashes IS NOT the max of their strength, not even close.

      At the start of episode 13, the narrator stated that the clash between Goku's Kamehameha and Beerus' Cataclysmic Orb, was about to destroy the entire Universe. But instead, their attacks merged together and formed a super dense energy ball. This energy ball also had enough power to destroy entire Universe 7. Since this energy was in the Earth's stratosphere and Earth itself is located near the edge of the universe, in DBS at least, the energy required for the ball to destroy the entire universe would be immense.

      At the end of the episode, the narrator again confirms that they were indeed hitting each other with the power capable of destroying the universe. And this is only his battle with Beerus at the BEGINNING of super, in which fight he broke his limits a couple times already, he has increased his power MANY fold now by the end.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.

      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.

      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.

      I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you're working off of a faulty premise. Namely, that you can properly powerscale Dragon Ball.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.
      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.
      I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you're working off of a faulty premise. Namely, that you can properly powerscale Dragon Ball.

      It certainly doesn't work all the time, dragon ball logic is... flawed, at best, but it is still applicable in most cases. Like the thread we have here.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:
      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.
      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.

      Of course you can, you can say whatever you want. However, you would still be wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Wrong? Come on people open your eyes Jiren obviously is much stronger than Yamcha and power scaling is not impossible it can just be slightly difficult, if power scaling wasn’t in dragon ball then Broly wouldn’t have been stated to be the strongest opponent Goku and Vegeta have faced. Wake up and smell the roses.

        Loading editor
    • Those aren't roses. That's manure.

        Loading editor
    • You must’ve taken a wrong turn somewhere...

        Loading editor
    • Of course I took a wrong turn, the course was your logic.

        Loading editor
    • Some shoddy navigational skills you got there slick.

        Loading editor
    • Thank you, it's been quite difficult trying to follow your map. It looks like you wrote it while having a seizure after 2 pots of coffee.

        Loading editor
    • OK moderators, lock the thread this isn't going anywhere.

        Loading editor
    • Because I posted proof of Goku being universe level in base, on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, I’m having a seizure after two pots of coffee. Fascinating.

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Because I posted proof of Goku being universe level in base, on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, I’m having a seizure after two pots of coffee. Fascinating.

      Oh no, at that point I was just snarking about navigation. Because you posted what you believe to be evidence of Goku being the fanon term "universe level in base", on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, you're wrong. Hope that clears things up.

        Loading editor
    • Oh dear, a lot of arguing, I don’t wanna join in because if I join either side the other will argue against me. Thank god I did not put how powerful xeno Goku is or else a lot of more mess.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      Because I posted proof of Goku being universe level in base, on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, I’m having a seizure after two pots of coffee. Fascinating.

      Oh no, at that point I was just snarking about navigation. Because you posted what you believe to be evidence of Goku being the fanon term "universe level in base", on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, you're wrong. Hope that clears things up.

      Please, do prove me wrong.

        Loading editor
    • The burden of proof is on the one who brought it up, not on the one called on to refute it.

        Loading editor
    • I already proved I was correct. You say I am not. So no, the burden of proof falls to you.

        Loading editor
    • Goku fought Beerus in Monaka costume in his base. Just sayin, not on any sides but I brought it up cuz y not lol.

        Loading editor
    • I would take that into account but, it has a lot of uncertainty. We don’t know how much power exactly Beerus used and we don’t know if that was just a filler arc not to be taken seriously or what. But it is definitely worth it to keep in mind.

      With all that said, Goku is indeed able to destroy a universe using his base form. As far as the immensely powerful forms above his base form, I don’t know a higher term than I guess multiverse.

        Loading editor
    • The form you are calling base form is called "saiyan beyond god form".  That's base form with god ki infused. Goku's normal base form is like his ssj form in buu saga level..

        Loading editor
    • Actually his base form is not infused with divine ki as they can still sense his energy. The form you are talking about is infact their base form, it’s them not letting any energy leak out raising it inside only. Which grants them the raw might of the Super Saiyan Red form in their base, without having to transform into the form.

        Loading editor
    • He's in the realm of a God of Destruction when using SSB, when he mastered UI he was definitely in the high end of GoD tier, as in the guide Beerus was uncertain if MUI Goku(Yes, MUI Goku not Sign, it was a scan for 130) was stronger than he was. However, this was contradicted for some dumb reason as on the Dragon Ball website they said both Vegeta and Goku are still trying to reach the level of the Gods, LOL.

        Loading editor
    • Goku is more powerful than the fusion of Jiren and Broly. Or at least he will be in a year or so.

        Loading editor
    • Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      He's in the realm of a God of Destruction when using SSB, when he mastered UI he was definitely in the high end of GoD tier, as in the guide Beerus was uncertain if MUI Goku(Yes, MUI Goku not Sign, it was a scan for 130) was stronger than he was. However, this was contradicted for some dumb reason as on the Dragon Ball website they said both Vegeta and Goku are still trying to reach the level of the Gods, LOL.

      Actually, I am pretty sure Beerus was unsure whether 3rd trigger Ui sign Goku was stronger or not. Not MUI.

        Loading editor
    • No, because of it was third trigger you would think Beerus or Whis would have mentioned it as Whis has done before, however when Goku mastered UI is when all the gods got up to revere the mortal who has achieved something the gods themselves couldn’t. Also Broly was compared to Beerus by Goku, SPOILERS ABOUND 🛑: This Broly forced Gogeta to use SSB, who is for sure stronger than Third UI trigger and most likely MUI Goku. So ya Beerus(Known Power)>>>>>>>UI third Trigger Goku

        Loading editor
    • I made an edit to the Beerus page correcting that it was MUI but some guy ACTUALLY thinks they were referring to Third Trigger Goku, when it was a SCAN of 130, IE the episode Goku masters UI 😂😂😂😂😂😂

        Loading editor
    • MUI is more powerful than what we got to see. Goku was constantly at the Last of his stamina during the majority of that tournament

        Loading editor
    • The context from the post is just that Goku mastered UI and was comparable to Beerus, also it was stated that as Goku continues to fight his stamina returns, the only reason he ran out of UI was because the power of the form was too much for him. Otherwise Beerus>=MUI Goku.

        Loading editor
    • As per broly movie

      Gogeta SSB>Broly Legendary Super saiyan Full Power> Beerus full power> >> Gogeta SS> Broly ss> MUI Goku> Jiren Full Power>>Goku Perfected SSB.

        Loading editor
      • Beep!! Try again.
        Loading editor
    • Gogita Blue >> Broly Full Power > Gogita SS >> Super Broly = Gogeta Base = Bills = Goku UI > Jiren Full Power >> Goku Blue

        Loading editor
    • Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      No, because of it was third trigger you would think Beerus or Whis would have mentioned it as Whis has done before, however when Goku mastered UI is when all the gods got up to revere the mortal who has achieved something the gods themselves couldn’t. Also Broly was compared to Beerus by Goku, SPOILERS ABOUND 🛑: This Broly forced Gogeta to use SSB, who is for sure stronger than Third UI trigger and most likely MUI Goku. So ya Beerus(Known Power)>>>>>>>UI third Trigger Goku

      It is on Ui sign Goku page on usage and power.

        Loading editor
    • Beerus is confirmed Universal via many statements and guides.Goku didn't reach that point until UI FP and MUI. 

      I'd say: Base, SSJ,SSJ2,SSJ3 Goku are less than 1% Beerus.

      SJBG,SSJG Goku are currently 20% of Beerus and SSJB= 25%. SSJBKKX20 is 30%( All out attacks raise it to 5%, like Kamehameha that's how Goku beat Jiren, without it they're even pretty much)

      UI FP is 90% of Beerus and MUI is 100% of Beerus. In terms of destruction( no all out attacks).

      Base: Large Star+ level

      SSJ,SSJ2 are Solar System+ level

      SSJ3 is Multi-Solar System leve

      SJBG/SSJG and SSJB= Multi-Galaxy+ level

      UI FP is Low End Universal and MUI is Universal.

        Loading editor
    • Chapita2018 wrote:
      Gogita Blue >> Broly Full Power > Gogita SS >> Super Broly = Gogeta Base = Bills = Goku UI > Jiren Full Power >> Goku Blue

      where did the "bills" bullsh!t come from? what alcoholic pun is bills for?

        Loading editor
    • @CMButch Goku is easily Universal in base now. I don't know where those percentages were pulled from but it's just horribly wrong.

      Battle of Gods SSG Goku was fighting equally with Beerus and they both were individually using enough power to destroy the Universe. He then absorbs Super Saiyan God into Super Saiyan, and then becomes even stronger than that while just in base form since he could one-shot a Universal blast that Super Saiyan couldn't handle.

      Also, are you implying that SSB Kaioken x20 is only 5% stronger than SSB?

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.
      '4D is not a concept used' 

      So are we supposed to ignore the feats he has shown? Let's calculate.

      If Goku shook the world of void, which is supposedly nothing, infinitely.

      We know that's 3D, but if Goku is powerful enough to effect INFINITE 3D, that would make him, or at least his attack potency, 4D. 

      Excuse me for trying to powerscale. I'll let you use your hasty generalizations in peace now.

      Um...that not even how that would work scientifcally (your usage of dimension is a little off). But, lets move on from that. 

        Loading editor
    • STAnarchy wrote:
      @CMButch Goku is easily Universal in base now. I don't know where those percentages were pulled from but it's just horribly wrong.

      Battle of Gods SSG Goku was fighting equally with Beerus and they both were individually using enough power to destroy the Universe. He then absorbs Super Saiyan God into Super Saiyan, and then becomes even stronger than that while just in base form since he could one-shot a Universal blast that Super Saiyan couldn't handle.

      Also, are you implying that SSB Kaioken x20 is only 5% stronger than SSB?

      Goku is not Universal in Base, based on your logic so are Cabba, Krillin, Gohan, Caulifla etc etc. Factually incorrect.He's not even universal in any any form except UI FP and MUI.Also by that time he absorbed into SSJ but later becamse SJBG in RoF( there is SJBG on this wiki check it out)

      They weren't fighting equally as Beerus used 15-20% of his power and Goku was using 100%. Lmao no, BOTH DIDN'T HAVE enough power to destroy Universe, only Beerus has - confirmed multiple times.That was Multi-Galaxy+ level attack that by - snowball effect would destroy Universe in several shots.If we go by logic that Beerus is Universal with 15-20% of power that means he could destroy like U11,U12,U2,U7 like mutliple universes in 100% FP, which is lol no because he's been confirmed Universal with Hakai Universal+.( so he can destroy U7 and little bit of U6)

      Yes in Beerus scale, SSJBKKX20 is only 5% stronger than SSJB.If SSJB can destroy like 1 billion galaxies, 5% stronger means he can destroy like 20 billion galaxies(that is just an example) You're implying like I am saying that if SSJB can destroy a billion galaxies, SSJBKKX20 can destroy like 5 billion galaxies, which I just proved that's not the case. 

      Since there are 900 billion galaxiesin universe. If SSJB Goku(FP) is 25% of Beerus so he can destroy 300 billion galaxies with SSJBKKX20 he can destroy like 350 billion galaxies. I didn't say he could destroy 305 billion galaxies( which would be + 0.1% of Beerus. Again if we go by "real value" SSJB Goku 300 billion galaxies x 20= 6,000 billion(that's like 60 trillion galaxies or 6 trillion) so much more than Beerus's 900 billion which is hell no, Beerus confirmed many times that he's above SSJBKKX20 Goku and based on that logic UI and Jiren would like destroy 800 trillion galaxies so above even Whis which is again hell no.

        Loading editor
    • "Goku is not Universal in Base, based on your logic so are Cabba, Krillin, Gohan, Caulifla etc etc. Factually incorrect.He's not even universal in any any form except UI FP and MUI.Also by that time he absorbed into SSJ but later becamse SJBG in RoF( there is SJBG on this wiki check it out)"

      First off, I never said Goku couldn't supress his energy. You act like I said he's always at full power or something when I clearly didn't. And stop pulling these percentages out of your ass.

        Loading editor
    • Universal isn't a power level in DB canon. The writers no longer care about power levels. Stop pulling these terms out of your ass.

        Loading editor
    • It doesn't matter if its a term used in the series or not. It's a term that people use to put certain characters at certain tiers. Just because it isn't used in the series directly doesn't mean it can't be used.

        Loading editor
    • Please stop the personal attacks or this thread will be closed.

        Loading editor
    • No, it just means it's headcanon. Anyway, Universe-level means it doesn't require fighting with another character vastly more powerful than you and having another character make a hyperbolic statement based off of no planets near them blowing up.

        Loading editor
    • STAnarchy wrote:
      "Goku is not Universal in Base, based on your logic so are Cabba, Krillin, Gohan, Caulifla etc etc. Factually incorrect.He's not even universal in any any form except UI FP and MUI.Also by that time he absorbed into SSJ but later becamse SJBG in RoF( there is SJBG on this wiki check it out)"

      First off, I never said Goku couldn't supress his energy. You act like I said he's always at full power or something when I clearly didn't. And stop pulling these percentages out of your ass.

      These percentages are carefully crafted with logic,multipliers etc. Sure not perfectly accurate but semi. Also, Vegeta stated that his Base and Cabba's are equal. So again based on that logic, Base Cabba is Universal.lmao

        Loading editor
    • Base Cabba and Vegeta aren't equal. The statement from the Narrator is referring to supressed Vegeta. Cabba was out of breath from a basic kick. Also Base Vegeta caught all of the attacks except one punch that ended up not really doing much. They most certainly aren't equal.

        Loading editor
    • STAnarchy wrote:
      Base Cabba and Vegeta aren't equal. The statement from the Narrator is referring to supressed Vegeta. Cabba was out of breath from a basic kick. Also Base Vegeta caught all of the attacks except one punch that ended up not really doing much. They most certainly aren't equal.

      Well even if we go by that, SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta obviously8 since SSJ Vegeta is shown beating SSJ Cabba and having kind of difficulties). That still means based on your logic that Base Cabba is Universal.. and that Base Cabba > SSJG BoG Goku.

      While in reality it is:

      SSJB > SSJG/SJBG(Universal by your logic, while in my logic Multi-Galaxy+ level) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3(less than 1% Beerus) > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base. So Cabba is like Solar System + level at best with SSJ2 and not Universal, nor even Multi-Galaxy+ level.

        Loading editor
    • I never said Cabba is Universal. Vegeta was most likely supressing to the point where he was below that tier when fighting Cabba.

        Loading editor
    • STAnarchy wrote:
      I never said Cabba is Universal. Vegeta was most likely supressing to the point where he was below that tier when fighting Cabba.

      You're implying that he suppressed so much that he went to Solar System level while show actually shows that he suppressed a little bit because SSJ Vegeta > SSJB Cabba > Base Vegeta > Base Cabba. Multiplier obviously shows he didn't suppress like ,you imply, x100000(from Universal to SOlar System level) but he suppressed like 20-25x.

        Loading editor
    • "x100000(from Universal to SOlar System level)"

      "but he suppressed like 20-25x"

      ...First implying that Universal is 100 thousand times Solar System Level then implying the Super Saiyan Multiplier is 20-25x? I'm done

        Loading editor
    • STAnarchy wrote:
      "x100000(from Universal to SOlar System level)"

      "but he suppressed like 20-25x"

      ...First implying that Universal is 100 thousand times Solar System Level then implying the Super Saiyan Multiplier is 20-25x? I'm done

      Dude, x 10000 was just an example. I don't know on how much power you need to destroy Universe or SS.

      Dude, I am sorry but are you stupid? I said Base Vegeta suppressed himself 20-25x so Cabba and him can be equal. I literally never said SSJ multiplier is 20-25x. LMAO

        Loading editor
    • So where did 20-25x come from? Are you assuming Vegeta was twice as strong as Cabba or-

        Loading editor
    • Not twice. I am assuming that Base Cabba FP is at best 80% of Base Vegeta FP.So Base Vegeta suppressed 20% in order for him to be even with Cabba. That means SSJ Cabba is 30% stronger than Base Vegeta( 80+ 50= 130)( that's why Vegeta had to transform into SSJ).

        Loading editor
    • JESUS CHRIST, this blew up outta nowhere. Anyway Goku is a universe buster in base form for sure by now, was able to fight Jiren(w/Freiza) and win, fought Broly for a while in base, an amped Broly who washed SSG Vegeta, YA, Goku is universal in base lowballing.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:
      No, it just means it's headcanon. Anyway, Universe-level means it doesn't require fighting with another character vastly more powerful than you and having another character make a hyperbolic statement based off of no planets near them blowing up.

      I personally don't care if they are or aren't capable of destroying a Universe, but Beerus wasn't vastly more powerful than Goku there. Goku in this same clash was able to stop it by countering it with equal force and angle. In the later fights, they were still fighting on par with each other when they created the super dense energy balls capable of doing the same. 

      How is it a hyperbolic statement? Not only is it stated dozens of times in the episodes, but it's also confirmed in scale by everyone, with people even saying they were spreading light across the Universe. 

        Loading editor
    • Beerus hasn’t leaped in power. He’s been massively more powerful than anyone else in 7 (minus MUI) and will continue to be

        Loading editor
    • But he was holding back while fighting Goku. They expressly show that he's equal to Beerus in this scene. 

        Loading editor
    • He lowered his power to equal what Goku's was. Since they were not controlling their clashes, 3 or 4 of the clashes could have been dangerous.

        Loading editor
    • Toei can be pretty much crap in terms of power scaling. I hate it when people blame Akira for Dragon Ball Super even though he was only helping. Akira takes control on DBS Broly. 

        Loading editor
    • Beerus wasn't even using a trillionth of his power against Goku, he was MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, supressed.

        Loading editor
    • Stonecoldstunner wrote: Beerus wasn't even using a trillionth of his power against Goku, he was MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, supressed.

      Thats just ridiculous, I am pretty sure that there is a limit to suppressing your power.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, and Beerus wasn't at that limit, he can definitely suppress further, as demonstrated when he smacked Bulma.

        Loading editor
    • Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      Beerus wasn't even using a trillionth of his power against Goku, he was MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, supressed.

      Seems far-fetched.

        Loading editor
    • https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Hearts Also if you read the source here on his mind reading ability and what not, it confirms Jiren is still the strongest in the multiverse, including everyone Hearts knows except Hearts wonders if Jiren is stronger than even him.. meaning Hearts is stronger than Cunber and fused Zamasu and so is Jiren.

        Loading editor
    • Which matters only in Heroes' continuity.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:
      Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      Beerus wasn't even using a trillionth of his power against Goku, he was MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, supressed.
      Seems far-fetched.

      As Shipper said before me, if he can supress himself to the point of supressing himself to slap Bulma and NOT kill her, it's not far fetched whatsoever.

        Loading editor
    • Goku is like already somewhat invincible, cause every time he fights a villian he wins somehow, either new transformation or something like that.

        Loading editor
    • IcyDiamondUltraPro wrote: Goku is like already somewhat invincible, cause every time he fights a villian he wins somehow, either new transformation or something like that.

      Except against:

      • Master Roshi (way back in Dragon Ball, during a tournament)
      • Vegeta (the first time it was a group effort)
      • Ginyu (again, group effort, and it nearly killed him)
      • Cell
      • Beerus
      • Golden Frieza
      • Hit
      • Jiren (group effort)

      That's just off the top of my head. I get that some of them aren't villains, but my point is, Goku doesn't always win.

        Loading editor
    • And the Zamasu

        Loading editor
    • Can't believe I forgot about him, but yes, Zamasu.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:
      And the Zamasu

      Just realized it's impossible to tell I meant Zamasu as plural for Zamasu

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      And the Zamasu

      Just realized it's impossible to tell I meant Zamasu as plural for Zamasu

      I assumed that was a typo, since he did beat his timeline's Zamasu in combat (before they were sure he was a villain) and was more than capable of beating Goku Black as well, if he'd gone all-out the first time they met. The only Zamasu he was incapable of defeating because he was weaker than them was Fused Zamasu. Future Zamasu simply had that immortality thing going for him; he was otherwise weak.

        Loading editor
    • Goku Black was beating their asses as a Super Saiyan Rose, it was only Vegeta after training in the Time Chamber that could overwhelm him and that was short lived, as Black used his anger to get stronger yet again. Goku got his ass beat by Black.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: Goku Black was beating their asses as a Super Saiyan Rose, it was only Vegeta after training in the Time Chamber that could overwhelm him and that was short lived, as Black used his anger to get stronger yet again. Goku got his ass beat by Black.

      Goku Black followed Trunks when he went back in time, remember? I know that didn't happen in the comic, but that's not the part of the franchise most people follow, so I was speaking only of events from the cartoon.

        Loading editor
    • At that point, Trunks confirmed Black was not using his full power. He said Black was much stronger when he fought him, so even then SS2 Goku wasn't pushing Black at all, Black was just having fun against him while copying his techniques and stance.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: At that point, Trunks confirmed Black was not using his full power. He said Black was much stronger when he fought him, so even then SS2 Goku wasn't pushing Black at all, Black was just having fun against him while copying his techniques and stance.

      Trunks was sure Goku could've beaten him if he'd gone SS3, and he could still go all the way to X20 Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken.

        Loading editor
    • Goku could not use x20 kaioken at that time, as shown vs Fused Zamasu kaioken blue was unmastered, still hurting Goku when he used SSBKaioken to kick Fused Zamasu. When Black actually came to the future he was tying SS2 Goku in battle while holding back, and Trunks said he was stronger when Trunks fought him before hand. In the manga SS2 Trunks at full power tied SS3 Goku in power and Trunks said there that Black was still stronger, too. Black then proceeded to eat SSB Vegetas hits and kick him away when they went to the future to fight him. Black himself is a divine Saiyan, so he most likely is a Super Saiyan God naturally, and it comes to him looking like God-like Saiyan state. Meaning his power is already SSG levels and above. THEN he transformed into SSRose and was too much for SSB Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta trains hard, comes back and starts to beat SSR Black, Black gets enraged and heals, getting stronger again and getting his Scythe and the abilities it brings, putting him back on equal footing with SSB Vegeta. The rival danger scale puts SSR Black as a 12/12 just like Fused Zamasu because he can heal so fast and get such nice Zenkai boosts after healing each time. He is one of the most dangerous enemies in the entire series.

        Loading editor
    • The very first time Goku Black came back to the past he was taking damage from SS2 Goku which is leaps and bounds lower than even Super Saiyan Red. They should’ve gotten rid of him when they had the chance which is why I assume they removed that little bit from the manga to not make you wonder “why?”.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: Goku could not use x20 kaioken at that time, as shown vs Fused Zamasu kaioken blue was unmastered, still hurting Goku when he used SSBKaioken to kick Fused Zamasu. When Black actually came to the future he was tying SS2 Goku in battle while holding back, and Trunks said he was stronger when Trunks fought him before hand. In the manga SS2 Trunks at full power tied SS3 Goku in power and Trunks said there that Black was still stronger, too. Black then proceeded to eat SSB Vegetas hits and kick him away when they went to the future to fight him. Black himself is a divine Saiyan, so he most likely is a Super Saiyan God naturally, and it comes to him looking like God-like Saiyan state. Meaning his power is already SSG levels and above. THEN he transformed into SSRose and was too much for SSB Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta trains hard, comes back and starts to beat SSR Black, Black gets enraged and heals, getting stronger again and getting his Scythe and the abilities it brings, putting him back on equal footing with SSB Vegeta. The rival danger scale puts SSR Black as a 12/12 just like Fused Zamasu because he can heal so fast and get such nice Zenkai boosts after healing each time. He is one of the most dangerous enemies in the entire series.

      Dude, Black was not tying with Goku, at all. When he got back to the future, he collapsed from his injuries, while Goku was still perfectly fine. He's just a masochist.

        Loading editor
    • To be fair, regular Goku is also a masochist. Only a masochist would put their love of fighting above the safety of their family and then cry when their family gets hurt.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: To be fair, regular Goku is also a masochist. Only a masochist would put their love of fighting above the safety of their family and then cry when their family gets hurt.

      He's dumb and arrogant, that's all. He doesn't think ahead, doesn't consider the consequences of his actions, and always thinks everything will be fine.

        Loading editor
    • Which is fine the first few times. At this point anyone, including anyone who was hit hard in the head, would have learned from that mistake.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: Which is fine the first few times. At this point anyone, including anyone who was hit hard in the head, would have learned from that mistake.

      Learned what, exactly? The nature of fiction - Dragon Ball in particular - means that his gamble will always pay off. The good guys always win, the bad guys always lose, and if any good guys die along the way, you have magical orbs that can fix anything. Goku has never lost anyone due to his recklessness. The closest he came was when Goten and Chi-Chi from Goku Black's timeline were murdered. Seriously, when's the last time a deceased good guy in Dragon Ball actually stayed dead?

        Loading editor
    • Gohan..

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: Gohan..

      Future Gohan, from Future Trunks' timeline, you mean? Y'know, the one without Dragon Balls?

        Loading editor
    • No, Goku's dad.

        Loading editor
    • He is talking about Grandpa Gohan

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: No, Goku's dad.

      And even he didn't die because Goku loved fighting. He died because Goku turned into a Great Ape and couldn't control himself.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: No, Goku's dad.

      Goku... couldn't control himself.

      He still can't. He had no way of knowing the Zen'os wouldn't have left the universes dead.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: No, Goku's dad.

      Goku... couldn't control himself.

      He still can't. He had no way of knowing the Zen'os wouldn't have left the universes dead.

      You're seriously comparing a transformation that inherently inhibits one's ability to think rationally and requires considerable training to control, to just being dumb?

        Loading editor
    • Only for a lark.

        Loading editor
    • On the subject of Beerus being suppressed, saying trillions of times is a massive over statement, Beerus used 70% of his power on Goku.

        Loading editor
    • Beerus used 70% of his power on Goku? As in, in the Battle of Gods arc? If that was true then even in the manga, Super Saiyan Blue Goku would be stronger than Beerus in just the Universe 6 arc due to the multipliers alone.

        Loading editor
    • @Chrome That is called two things, one is a character lie, and two is a retcon. Beerus used NOWHERE near 70% of his power. If he did that would mean SSB is far less than 30% stronger than SSGod and you would throw a fit at that notion.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: @Chrome That is called two things, one is a character lie, and two is a retcon. Beerus used NOWHERE near 70% of his power. If he did that would mean SSB is far less than 30% stronger than SSGod and you would throw a fit at that notion.

      For one, do try to be a bit more polite, you don’t know at what I’d throw a fit and for two. If you have an issue with the fact that he used 70% but still is massively stronger, take it up with Whis/Toyataro/Toriyama, it’s stated and nowhere have they said “he didn’t use 70%” so it still stands and hasn’t been retconned. A retcon occurs when something directly changes what was previously said, for instance Potara is permanent to Potara only lasts for an hour.

        Loading editor
    • Goku also said he was using 100% at the end of the fight while in SSG, if Beerus was actually using 70% then use math. It's not hard, if it is true then it means that Blue is only less than 30% stronger than God. Math is your friend.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: Goku also said he was using 100% at the end of the fight while in SSG, if Beerus was actually using 70% then use math. It's not hard, if it is true then it means that Blue is only less than 30% stronger than God. Math is your friend.

      Again man, I don’t make the difference in power, ask Tori why he said it not me, I’m just saying what he said. If you wanna ignore that it’s cool with me, but that’s the only percentage we’ve been given at this point.

        Loading editor
    • Wow.

        Loading editor
    • Wow indeed.


      What’re we wowing?

        Loading editor
    • Chrome0X wrote: Wow indeed.


      What’re we wowing?

      Probably your inability to understand what a retcon is

        Loading editor
    • The difference in the percentages Beerus uses is quite a bit, he said he used 10% against Vegeta in my Bulma mode. So are we to believe that Super Saiyan Red Goku was only 7 times stronger than My Bulma Vegeta? It seemed like a lot more than that but again, if you want to ignore the percents that’s fine, just don’t take it to trillions upon trillions that is completely unreasonable.

        Loading editor
    • Where was it ever stated that Beerus used 70% of his power? Where ever it came from, definitely retconned. Beerus using 70% of his power against Goku is just utter bullshit now. That'd make Super Saiyan Blue Goku far superior to Beerus in very early arcs, even RoF. And that's just completely wrong.

        Loading editor
    • I do believe that Toriyama's god scale stated SSG Goku (BoG) is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15.

      This clearly holds no weight even before we get to RoF, because if Goku absorbed SSG into his base, then all he has to do is go kaioken x3 and slaps Whis. 

      Clearly that makes no sense, so powerscalers, for the most part, have chosen to ignore this form of "scaling" Tori gave us.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote: I do believe that Toriyama's god scale stated SSG Goku (BoG) is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15.

      This clearly holds no weight even before we get to RoF, because if Goku absorbed SSG into his base, then all he has to do is go kaioken x3 and slaps Whis. 

      Clearly that makes no sense, so powerscalers, for the most part, have chosen to ignore this form of "scaling" Tori gave us.

      Disregarding the obvious "powerscaling in DB doesn't work", the scale might not be linear.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I do believe that Toriyama's god scale stated SSG Goku (BoG) is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15.

      This clearly holds no weight even before we get to RoF, because if Goku absorbed SSG into his base, then all he has to do is go kaioken x3 and slaps Whis. 

      Clearly that makes no sense, so powerscalers, for the most part, have chosen to ignore this form of "scaling" Tori gave us.

      Disregarding the obvious "powerscaling in DB doesn't work", the scale might not be linear.

      I wouldn't say powerscaling doesn't work in DB...but as to the scale not being linear, this seems incorrect, seeing as it was a one to 10 scale. But hey, I'm not Tori. I'm fairly sure he revised it in a later interview.

      In my defense, he did say

      "I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."

        Loading editor
    • He said that a long long long time ago. Things change.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I do believe that Toriyama's god scale stated SSG Goku (BoG) is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15.

      This clearly holds no weight even before we get to RoF, because if Goku absorbed SSG into his base, then all he has to do is go kaioken x3 and slaps Whis. 

      Clearly that makes no sense, so powerscalers, for the most part, have chosen to ignore this form of "scaling" Tori gave us.

      Disregarding the obvious "powerscaling in DB doesn't work", the scale might not be linear.

      I wouldn't say powerscaling doesn't work in DB...but as to the scale not being linear, this seems incorrect, seeing as it was a one to 10 scale. But hey, I'm not Tori. I'm fairly sure he revised it in a later interview.

      I mean, it works within a small timeframe. You can, for example, powerscale every character at the time of the Android saga, but you can't extrapolate from that to other time periods. Likewise, you can powerscale the characters at the time of BoG, but you can't extrapolate that to RoF or ToP. You also can't extrapolate from ToP to DBS:Broly. It doesn't work because each new saga/iteration of the franchise can and will ignore what came before, in the interest of making that single iteration more interesting.

      PS: If it were a linear 1-10 scale, Whis couldn't be a "15".

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:
      He said that a long long long time ago. Things change.

      That was my point entirely, thank you.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I do believe that Toriyama's god scale stated SSG Goku (BoG) is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15.

      This clearly holds no weight even before we get to RoF, because if Goku absorbed SSG into his base, then all he has to do is go kaioken x3 and slaps Whis. 

      Clearly that makes no sense, so powerscalers, for the most part, have chosen to ignore this form of "scaling" Tori gave us.

      Disregarding the obvious "powerscaling in DB doesn't work", the scale might not be linear.
      I wouldn't say powerscaling doesn't work in DB...but as to the scale not being linear, this seems incorrect, seeing as it was a one to 10 scale. But hey, I'm not Tori. I'm fairly sure he revised it in a later interview.
      I mean, it works within a small timeframe. You can, for example, powerscale every character at the time of the Android saga, but you can't extrapolate from that to other time periods. Likewise, you can powerscale the characters at the time of BoG, but you can't extrapolate that to RoF or ToP. You also can't extrapolate from ToP to DBS:Broly. It doesn't work because each new saga/iteration of the franchise can and will ignore what came before, in the interest of making that single iteration more interesting.

      PS: If it were a linear 1-10 scale, Whis couldn't be a "15".

      I'm not so sure about "will", they just keep increasing the character's strength exponentially, sometimes with little explanation (Looking at you, Android 17.). However, it IS possible to use feats or statements from previous sagas and extrapolate, usually because the new saga provides us with a even greater feat. From ToP to DBS:Broly you have a point though, all we really have to go on is a statement from Goku. Dragon Ball can be unclear alot of times on exactly what a character can and can't do.

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote: I'm not so sure about "will", they just keep increasing the character's strength exponentially, sometimes with little explanation (Looking at you, Android 17.). However, it IS possible to use feats or statements from previous sagas and extrapolate, usually because the new saga provides us with a even greater feat. From ToP to DBS:Broly you have a point though, all we really have to go on is a statement from Goku. Dragon Ball can be unclear alot of times on exactly what a character can and can't do.

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3 (remember when Goku nearly destroyed the planet just by going SS3?), SSG (destroying the universe by clashing with someone who was trying to match his power), and SSB. SSB is also weaker than SSG and SS3, if you compare feats. So sure, you can use feats and statements, but it won't lead to a proper powerscaling because the show simply does not give a fuck. Anything can be retconned in a heartbeat if whoever's writing the story believes it will make the story better. It happened to Potara, it happened to SSG. It will keep happening because they don't care about establishing a rigid continuity; they just want to tell interesting stories.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I'm not so sure about "will", they just keep increasing the character's strength exponentially, sometimes with little explanation (Looking at you, Android 17.). However, it IS possible to use feats or statements from previous sagas and extrapolate, usually because the new saga provides us with a even greater feat. From ToP to DBS:Broly you have a point though, all we really have to go on is a statement from Goku. Dragon Ball can be unclear alot of times on exactly what a character can and can't do.

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3, SSG, and SSB. So sure, you can use feats and statements, but it won't lead to a proper powerscaling because the show simply does not give a fuck. Anything can be retconned in a heartbeat if whoever's writing the story believes it will make the story better. It happened to Potara, it happened to SSG. It will keep happening because they don't care about establishing a rigid continuity; they just want to tell interesting stories.

      UI shook infinity just by existing, that puts him well above anything Goku has shown before. But the last sentence is true, mostly. The writing in DB is subpar most times. If it looks cool, it's gonna happen, doesn't matter if it makes sense (Looking at you, Goku vs Gohan).

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I'm not so sure about "will", they just keep increasing the character's strength exponentially, sometimes with little explanation (Looking at you, Android 17.). However, it IS possible to use feats or statements from previous sagas and extrapolate, usually because the new saga provides us with a even greater feat. From ToP to DBS:Broly you have a point though, all we really have to go on is a statement from Goku. Dragon Ball can be unclear alot of times on exactly what a character can and can't do.

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3, SSG, and SSB. So sure, you can use feats and statements, but it won't lead to a proper powerscaling because the show simply does not give a fuck. Anything can be retconned in a heartbeat if whoever's writing the story believes it will make the story better. It happened to Potara, it happened to SSG. It will keep happening because they don't care about establishing a rigid continuity; they just want to tell interesting stories.

      UI shook infinity just by existing, that puts him well above anything Goku has shown before. But the last sentence is true, mostly. The writing in DB is subpar most times. If it looks cool, it's gonna happen, doesn't matter if it makes sense (Looking at you, Goku vs Gohan).

      SSG also destroyed planets and was, while clashing with Beerus, gonna destroy the universe. MUI clashing with Jiren didn't even affect people in the stands. SS3's punches, at the start of BoG, were breaking King Kai's planet. MUI's missed punches didn't do anything. Hell, Jiren's deflected blows were more destructive than MUI's missed punches, and that was before he powered up to match MUI.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3 (remember when Goku nearly destroyed the planet just by going SS3?), 

      Except the substance that made up the stage was much more durable than the substances that make up a planet specificaly because of how little power it takes to destroy one.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3 (remember when Goku nearly destroyed the planet just by going SS3?), 

      Except the substance that made up the stage was much more durable than the substances that make up a planet specificaly because of how little power it takes to destroy one.

      There was a stage, a bench, and a couple platforms, not to mention the actual fighters and gods themselves, some of whom were definitely below SS3. Zeno's platform appeared to be shielded in some way, but the Grand Priest's platform and the bench were not.

        Loading editor
    • what does shielding have to do with what the platform was made of?

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: what does shielding have to do with what the platform was made of?

      The platform and bench were not made of the same substance as the stage; there would be no reason for it. My point with the shielding is that it could explain why Zeno's platform wasn't affected.

        Loading editor
    • By SSj3? I thought the point you were making was that MUI was lesser by feats and using the destruction they caused to the surrounding area as a reference, but until Jiren it didn't seem like the bench was reachable by their power.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: By SSj3? I thought the point you were making was that MUI was lesser by feats and using the destruction they caused to the surrounding area as a reference, but until Jiren it didn't seem like the bench was reachable by their power.

      No, by MUI. The bench was definitely reachable. Even Top's Hakai seemed like it was going to kill everyone.

        Loading editor
    • Why wouldn't they make the benches out of the same material? It's an extravagent tournament and anything powerful enough to destroy the stage could reach them and I'd think they would want the extra protection.

        Loading editor
    • The Grand Priest really has no reason to create an entire stage out of the hardest metal and then materialize an entirely different type for the fighting stage view point. Even if they don’t need protection because they’re supposed to be way stronger than the all of the fighters the GP just doesn’t care enough to use different materials.

        Loading editor
    • They show the fighters being able to concentrate their ki so as to not destroy everything all the time. Hell, Jiren does it very explicitly when he's trying to take out MUI Goku just before Goku completes the transformation. I mean, when Super Saiyan God Goku fights Beerus and the uncontrolled clash of their energies from physical attacks nearly destroyed the entire universe (!), Goku figures out how to counter the forces involved so as to not destroy everything. This is a recurring theme throughout the series. It's why Vegeta's Big Bang Attack that kills 19 doesn't also vaporize the planet, even though he could easily do so.

      As far as Goku, we can't place him in regards to the Angels yet, but as a quick placement:

      • Jiren is stronger than the Gods of Destruction (confirmed in manga, show, and supplemental materials)

      • -Sign- Goku is pretty much equal to base Jiren at full power

      • Jiren gets much more powerful when he unlocks his hidden potential, putting him FAR above the Gods of Destruction

      • At the height of his power, Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku completely dominates Jiren (even with his awakened power), incontrovertibly and decisively winning the fight with strength to spare

      This is all that we are explicitly shown. Where the Angels place compared to awakened Jiren/MUI Goku is impossible to say because there isn't enough information. We know they're significantly stronger than the Gods of Destruction, but so are Goku and Jiren by the end of their fight. We don't know how MUCH stronger each is than the Gods of Destruction, so until then, it's impossible to say. Personally, I'd say the strongest Angels are still a fair bit more powerful than Goku and Jiren, and the Grand Priest probably above them or close, but that's only a guess based on what we've seen.

        Loading editor
    • The way it’s portrayed the attendants are still above Goku and Jiren and the GP is above them, still don’t know where Zeno factors in all this though. But we do know How Powerful Goku is. Roll credits.

        Loading editor
    • I don't know that the attendants come off as any kind of near Jiren, really. And Zeno seems to not be physically as powerful as most of the top-tier fighters, just his super-mage abilities (as all DB characters are basically super-mages, where their energy powers far outstrip their admittedly impressive physical abilities) are beyond ridiculous. Heh, he gets annoyed at Infinite Zamasu so just powers up and one-shots a whole universe out of existence.

      Zeno might not even be the top. Super Shenron can grant anything, even Zeno says, and the Super Dragon Balls were created by the Dragon God, who might well be the top god. It's hard to say since we never see him.

      Whis says the Grand Priest is one of the top five, as I recall. I wonder who the others are? Probably the best Angels, like Whis and Vados, but I'm definitely curious.

        Loading editor
    • This Moro guy looks promising as well.

        Loading editor
    • Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      Beerus wasn't even using a trillionth of his power against Goku, he was MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY, supressed.
      Seems far-fetched.
      As Shipper said before me, if he can supress himself to the point of supressing himself to slap Bulma and NOT kill her, it's not far fetched whatsoever.

      Beerus gently slapped her, I am pretty fighting gently is not equal to supressing heavily.

        Loading editor
    • It is, because if he didn't suppress himself enough she would be dead. period.

        Loading editor
    • You don’t have to use anywhere near you full power to wave off a bug, and said bug will be nearly dead when you do gently wave it, you don’t have to hold back to do this. A serious tap in a fight is very different from waving your arm.

        Loading editor
    • This is the same Beerus who gently tapped a nail and disintegrated half a planet. Like everyone does in the show, he holds back his true destructive power throughout almost every fight. This is shown as far back as the Frieza Saga in stark clarity, where even Frieza holds back his power so as to not destroy himself.

      We're also shown times where fighters don't, like Beerus fighting Champa, Goku versus Beerus (both Battle of Gods and the hilarious "Monaka" rematch), etc., where it can easily destroy the planet they're fighting on, or even the universe. While this, like too many things in the Dragon Ball setting, sometimes suffers from consistency issues in its portrayal, it's been pretty consistently a factor for a very long time.

        Loading editor
    • Super Saiyan Amari wrote: This is the same Beerus who gently tapped a nail and disintegrated half a planet. Like everyone does in the show, he holds back his true destructive power throughout almost every fight. This is shown as far back as the Frieza Saga in stark clarity, where even Frieza holds back his power so as to not destroy himself.

      We're also shown times where fighters don't, like Beerus fighting Champa, Goku versus Beerus (both Battle of Gods and the hilarious "Monaka" rematch), etc., where it can easily destroy the planet they're fighting on, or even the universe. While this, like too many things in the Dragon Ball setting, sometimes suffers from consistency issues in its portrayal, it's been pretty consistently a factor for a very long time.

      Ok that’s good and all, but how many times is MUI stronger then SSB Kaioken x20? In DBH SSBKX20 Vegito struggled with Cumber while MUI Goku had no trouble. It could just be zenkai.

        Loading editor
    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I'm not so sure about "will", they just keep increasing the character's strength exponentially, sometimes with little explanation (Looking at you, Android 17.). However, it IS possible to use feats or statements from previous sagas and extrapolate, usually because the new saga provides us with a even greater feat. From ToP to DBS:Broly you have a point though, all we really have to go on is a statement from Goku. Dragon Ball can be unclear alot of times on exactly what a character can and can't do.

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3, SSG, and SSB. So sure, you can use feats and statements, but it won't lead to a proper powerscaling because the show simply does not give a fuck. Anything can be retconned in a heartbeat if whoever's writing the story believes it will make the story better. It happened to Potara, it happened to SSG. It will keep happening because they don't care about establishing a rigid continuity; they just want to tell interesting stories.
      UI shook infinity just by existing, that puts him well above anything Goku has shown before. But the last sentence is true, mostly. The writing in DB is subpar most times. If it looks cool, it's gonna happen, doesn't matter if it makes sense (Looking at you, Goku vs Gohan).
      SSG also destroyed planets and was, while clashing with Beerus, gonna destroy the universe. MUI clashing with Jiren didn't even affect people in the stands. SS3's punches, at the start of BoG, were breaking King Kai's planet. MUI's missed punches didn't do anything. Hell, Jiren's deflected blows were more destructive than MUI's missed punches, and that was before he powered up to match MUI.

      This is down to them controlling their energy so it doesnt screw everything up. Goku vs Hit (1st time) only cracked a few tiles, are you going to suggest Goku is tile level?

        Loading editor
    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I'm not so sure about "will", they just keep increasing the character's strength exponentially, sometimes with little explanation (Looking at you, Android 17.). However, it IS possible to use feats or statements from previous sagas and extrapolate, usually because the new saga provides us with a even greater feat. From ToP to DBS:Broly you have a point though, all we really have to go on is a statement from Goku. Dragon Ball can be unclear alot of times on exactly what a character can and can't do.

      The problem with comparing feats is that by feats alone, MUI, for example, is weaker than SS3, SSG, and SSB. So sure, you can use feats and statements, but it won't lead to a proper powerscaling because the show simply does not give a fuck. Anything can be retconned in a heartbeat if whoever's writing the story believes it will make the story better. It happened to Potara, it happened to SSG. It will keep happening because they don't care about establishing a rigid continuity; they just want to tell interesting stories.
      UI shook infinity just by existing, that puts him well above anything Goku has shown before. But the last sentence is true, mostly. The writing in DB is subpar most times. If it looks cool, it's gonna happen, doesn't matter if it makes sense (Looking at you, Goku vs Gohan).
      SSG also destroyed planets and was, while clashing with Beerus, gonna destroy the universe. MUI clashing with Jiren didn't even affect people in the stands. SS3's punches, at the start of BoG, were breaking King Kai's planet. MUI's missed punches didn't do anything. Hell, Jiren's deflected blows were more destructive than MUI's missed punches, and that was before he powered up to match MUI.

      This is down to them controlling their energy so it doesnt screw everything up. Goku vs Hit (1st time) only cracked a few tiles, are you going to suggest Goku is tile level?

      That would be ridiculous.

        Loading editor
    • Bump.

        Loading editor
    • I thought we only "bumped" topics when we had something to add.

        Loading editor
    • NervousShipper wrote: I thought we only "bumped" topics when we had something to add.

      Idk everyone else is doing it.

        Loading editor
    • Goku's power level is always "not enough to beat the main villain at first"

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message