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  • I just want to know if Kale has romantic feelings with Caulifla, since she turned into Uncontrollable Super Saiyan twice in the Dragon Ball Super series. I mean she turned into that when she got jealous to Cabba when he was training Caulifla and to Goku when she was fighting with him.

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    • No.

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    • She just respects Caulifla a lot

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    • Caulifia FRIENDZONED kale.

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    • Probably, depends on if they’re sisters or not... and on how homophobic the writers are

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    • They aren't sisters, Kale calls Caulifla sis out of respect.

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    • Personally, I really hope Kale isn't one, especially when I really wasn't fond of the implications leading to that conclusion when she first transformed (I still was reeling over the idiocy of turning Alex Danvers into a lesbian for no real reason in the second season of Supergirl.). Let's just hope they're just really, really good friends. General Blue and Otokosuki's more than enough enough regarding that bit anyway (maybe also Vikal and Kakunsa, if their little ring-save is of any indication.).

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    • Yeah Kale most likely isn't one. The U2 girls act way more like lesbians towards each other than Kale does towards Caulifla.

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    • Probably, definitely, yeah.

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    • It's very possible, however the level and type of feelings along with how misguided they are and whether or not they stay forever or are just an attribute of youth strongly depends on the writer of the manga.

      Kale's feelings MIGHT be pure if slightly obsession-level attachment, adoration, and respect, they MIGHT be romantic in nature, or they may be considered temporary feelings of misguided romance that would eventually evolve into something else or be given up as they mature. All three versions are popular in manga. 

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:
      Personally, I really hope Kale isn't one, especially when I really wasn't fond of the implications leading to that conclusion when she first transformed (I still was reeling over the idiocy of turning Alex Danvers into a lesbian for no real reason in the second season of Supergirl.). Let's just hope they're just really, really good friends. General Blue and Otokosuki's more than enough enough regarding that bit anyway (maybe also Vikal and Kakunsa, if their little ring-save is of any indication.).

      Representation matters. Imagine if media had no straight characters. You can't relate to one lesbian, how would you handle life then?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
      Personally, I really hope Kale isn't one, especially when I really wasn't fond of the implications leading to that conclusion when she first transformed (I still was reeling over the idiocy of turning Alex Danvers into a lesbian for no real reason in the second season of Supergirl.). Let's just hope they're just really, really good friends. General Blue and Otokosuki's more than enough enough regarding that bit anyway (maybe also Vikal and Kakunsa, if their little ring-save is of any indication.).

      Representation matters. Imagine if media had no straight characters. You can't relate to one lesbian, how would you handle life then?

      Well, gee, I'm a guy, so by definition I can't relate to a lesbian by default because I'm not one, and see no reason why I should relate to their sexual identity. That's the inherent flaw in your argument of how representation matters. Have you thought of the audience as a whole rather than just identity groups? Besides, they can always screw up badly regarding trying to make characters that, especially if it's done in such an obvious attempt at pandering they literally ignored elements of the character in the past just to force them into that box (case in point with my reference to Alex Danvers: In the first season, she was indicated to be heterosexual, having attempted to ask a guy out on a date and later tried to date Maxwell Lord. Come season 2, they out of the blue turned her into a lesbian, and to add insult to injury, they had her claiming she was "always bad with men" as her reason for this, despite the fact that she was shown to be good with men, and even in the one instance she failed in asking a guy out, that was due to Kara Danvers causing a ruckus trying to save a bus full of schoolchildren than due to anything Alex did). In any case, I already made clear that we've already got enough of them with those two Universe 2 fighters who saved each other from a ring out, not to mention General Blue and Otokosuki, and have no reason for another.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
      Personally, I really hope Kale isn't one, especially when I really wasn't fond of the implications leading to that conclusion when she first transformed (I still was reeling over the idiocy of turning Alex Danvers into a lesbian for no real reason in the second season of Supergirl.). Let's just hope they're just really, really good friends. General Blue and Otokosuki's more than enough enough regarding that bit anyway (maybe also Vikal and Kakunsa, if their little ring-save is of any indication.).

      Representation matters. Imagine if media had no straight characters. You can't relate to one lesbian, how would you handle life then?

      Well, gee, I'm a guy, so by definition I can't relate to a lesbian by default because I'm not one, and see no reason why I should relate to their sexual identity. That's the inherent flaw in your argument of how representation matters. Have you thought of the audience as a whole rather than just identity groups? Besides, they can always screw up badly regarding trying to make characters that, especially if it's done in such an obvious attempt at pandering they literally ignored elements of the character in the past just to force them into that box (case in point with my reference to Alex Danvers: In the first season, she was indicated to be heterosexual, having attempted to ask a guy out on a date and later tried to date Maxwell Lord. Come season 2, they out of the blue turned her into a lesbian, and to add insult to injury, they had her claiming she was "always bad with men" as her reason for this, despite the fact that she was shown to be good with men, and even in the one instance she failed in asking a guy out, that was due to Kara Danvers causing a ruckus trying to save a bus full of schoolchildren than due to anything Alex did). In any case, I already made clear that we've already got enough of them with those two Universe 2 fighters who saved each other from a ring out, not to mention General Blue and Otokosuki, and have no reason for another.

      You know there's such a thing as bisexuality, right?

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:
      Personally, I really hope Kale isn't one, especially when I really wasn't fond of the implications leading to that conclusion when she first transformed (I still was reeling over the idiocy of turning Alex Danvers into a lesbian for no real reason in the second season of Supergirl.). Let's just hope they're just really, really good friends. General Blue and Otokosuki's more than enough enough regarding that bit anyway (maybe also Vikal and Kakunsa, if their little ring-save is of any indication.).

      Representation matters. Imagine if media had no straight characters. You can't relate to one lesbian, how would you handle life then?

      Well, gee, I'm a guy, so by definition I can't relate to a lesbian by default because I'm not one, and see no reason why I should relate to their sexual identity. That's the inherent flaw in your argument of how representation matters. Have you thought of the audience as a whole rather than just identity groups? Besides, they can always screw up badly regarding trying to make characters that, especially if it's done in such an obvious attempt at pandering they literally ignored elements of the character in the past just to force them into that box (case in point with my reference to Alex Danvers: In the first season, she was indicated to be heterosexual, having attempted to ask a guy out on a date and later tried to date Maxwell Lord. Come season 2, they out of the blue turned her into a lesbian, and to add insult to injury, they had her claiming she was "always bad with men" as her reason for this, despite the fact that she was shown to be good with men, and even in the one instance she failed in asking a guy out, that was due to Kara Danvers causing a ruckus trying to save a bus full of schoolchildren than due to anything Alex did). In any case, I already made clear that we've already got enough of them with those two Universe 2 fighters who saved each other from a ring out, not to mention General Blue and Otokosuki, and have no reason for another.

      You know there's such a thing as bisexuality, right?

      Yeah, there is. Unfortunately, that's not what they went with regarding Alex Danvers. And that's not the route they went with regarding Blue, Otokosuki, or those two Universe 2 fighters.

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    • Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.

      I can relate to characteristics someone who happens to be LGBT possesses, like compassion, or being bullied, or stuff like that, but that is NOT the same thing as actually RELATING to the LGBT community for being LGBT, the latter of which is what you seem to be indicating, that I have to literally relate to someone who literally isn't what I am just for the sake of their status. It's pretty shallow to just relate to someone because they belong to an identity group. I need a reason to actually relate to them, beyond being an identity group (and to be honest, I'd actually prefer it if they DON'T try to do outright pandering to identity groups, not even regarding, say, Autism since they tend to not get that right.). And what they relate to, BTW, is specific characteristics that they support. That bit I actually DO agree with (heck, even though I'm a guy and Ariel's a girl, for example, I have immense respect for her. Meanwhile, despite Merida actually being Irish or some similar ethnicity and I'm of Irish descent, I actually HATE Merida and don't sympathize with her at ALL because of her actions.).

      Also, I go by percentages of population, just as an FYI, so next time, try to give the percentage of population of, say, the United States, or any given country, who is homosexual, and also make sure to cite your sources as well to back your claims up.

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    • She loves a woman instead of a dude. Not sure how you can't relate to liking a woman

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    • NervousShipper wrote: She loves a woman instead of a dude. Not sure how you can't relate to liking a woman

      I relate to loving the opposite sex. That's a pretty big distinction there.

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    • So you love it because it's not yours and not because of what it is in itself? Weird.

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    • So let me get this straight, regarding your mention of "statistics": Kryptonian with god-like powers is fine, but LGBT is too much for your suspension of disbelief?

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    • Orion Invictus wrote: So let me get this straight, regarding your mention of "statistics": Kryptonian with god-like powers is fine, but LGBT is too much for your suspension of disbelief?

      No, someone going LGBT, or more specifically, lesbian, when they've previously been established in the prior season to be straight, and because she was "bad with men" despite showing absolutely no indication of such, is too much for suspension of disbelief (and for the record, I had a similar problem with Claire Bennet in Heroes during the fourth volume/fifth season when she all of a sudden got a girlfriend despite being clearly shown as straight). I could tolerate Maggie Sawyer to a certain extent in the show since at least she actually was that from the start. Let me put it another way that you might understand: It would be like General Blue, or Otokosuki even, being established as being gay, yet in later seasons, he's all of a sudden gotten himself a girlfriend and is doting to her. Would you buy that character change at all?

      And actually, statistics was referring more to the general population (believe it or not, despite what TV would like to tell you, LGBTs actually compose less than 2% of the population).

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote: So let me get this straight, regarding your mention of "statistics": Kryptonian with god-like powers is fine, but LGBT is too much for your suspension of disbelief?

      No, someone going LGBT, or more specifically, lesbian, when they've previously been established in the prior season to be straight, and because she was "bad with men" despite showing absolutely no indication of such, is too much for suspension of disbelief (and for the record, I had a similar problem with Claire Bennet in Heroes during the fourth volume/fifth season when she all of a sudden got a girlfriend despite being clearly shown as straight). I could tolerate Maggie Sawyer to a certain extent in the show since at least she actually was that from the start. Let me put it another way that you might understand: It would be like General Blue, or Otokosuki even, being established as being gay, yet in later seasons, he's all of a sudden gotten himself a girlfriend and is doting to her. Would you buy that character change at all?

      And actually, statistics was referring more to the general population (believe it or not, despite what TV would like to tell you, LGBTs actually compose less than 2% of the population).

      How was it established that she wasn't bisexual?

      Also, what kind of TV are you watching? I've yet to see a TV channel that says LGBT are any percentage of the population. Even programs that try to answer the question can't come up with a number, since anti-LGBT sentiment causes many of them to stay in the closet.

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote: So let me get this straight, regarding your mention of "statistics": Kryptonian with god-like powers is fine, but LGBT is too much for your suspension of disbelief?

      No, someone going LGBT, or more specifically, lesbian, when they've previously been established in the prior season to be straight, and because she was "bad with men" despite showing absolutely no indication of such, is too much for suspension of disbelief (and for the record, I had a similar problem with Claire Bennet in Heroes during the fourth volume/fifth season when she all of a sudden got a girlfriend despite being clearly shown as straight). I could tolerate Maggie Sawyer to a certain extent in the show since at least she actually was that from the start. Let me put it another way that you might understand: It would be like General Blue, or Otokosuki even, being established as being gay, yet in later seasons, he's all of a sudden gotten himself a girlfriend and is doting to her. Would you buy that character change at all?

      And actually, statistics was referring more to the general population (believe it or not, despite what TV would like to tell you, LGBTs actually compose less than 2% of the population).

      How was it established that she wasn't bisexual?

      Also, what kind of TV are you watching? I've yet to see a TV channel that says LGBT are any percentage of the population. Even programs that try to answer the question can't come up with a number, since anti-LGBT sentiment causes many of them to stay in the closet.

      Simple, Alex was specifically stated to have become a lesbian, NOT bisexual. I'll give you Claire Bennet being bisexual, though (and Gretchen, her girlfriend, was mentioned to be bi as well). And besides, if they really wanted her to be that, they should have done it at Season 1, NOT wait until another season or even more seasons after then, by then it's too late to change course.

      As far as what TV I'm watching, they may not specifically STATE a percentage, but when they have multiple LGBT characters as leads or major characters, like I don't know, in Arrow, in 24, or Supergirl, or any of those shows, and such shows are fairly in your face about it, or how ABC has a special specifically dedicated to the LGBT movement, it's pretty obvious they're trying to make them out to be more common than they actually are. Otherwise, why show them at all?

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    • You do know that TV shows aren't meant to be an accurate depiction of reality, right? Furthermore, nobody's going to feel bad for you when 99.999% of all characters in 99.999% of all TV shows are disproportionately straight and white (often male as well), despite the fact that straight white people are a minority in the world.

      EDIT: And what's wrong with having a special that intentionally focuses on a demographic? Did you also complain about Third Rock From the Sun because it tried to make aliens seem more common than they actually are?

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    • Not to mention that it's not unreasonable to assume that certain professions would endear more LGBT people to work there. Anyway, this whole part of the conversation is wasting our time because Weedle thinks being gay is a sin. You can't use logic or wisdom to argue with a person who looks down on people like that.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Not to mention that it's not unreasonable to assume that certain professions would endear more LGBT people to work there. Anyway, this whole part of the conversation is wasting our time because Weedle thinks being gay is a sin. You can't use logic or wisdom to argue with a person who looks down on people like that.

      Look, whether I myself believe it is a sin or not is irrelevant. God himself made clear it is that, and he calls the shot. Look at the Book of Leviticus if you don't believe me. And either way, the fact of the matter is, Hollywood is trying to normalize it, regardless of whether it reflects reality or not.

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    • Do you wear clothing made of more than one material or eat shellfish? If you do then you are going against god's word. He does not call being gay as worse than those other two. Also, he's not real. There, now we've both put our personal beliefs above the other.

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    • Also, leviticus is the Old testament. Jesus died for our sins. The old testament laws are no longer applicable in light of that, or are you saying that you think his sacrifice is worthless?

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Do you wear clothing made of Korean than one material or eat shellfish? If you do then you are going against god's word. He does not call being gay as worse than those other two. Also, he's not real. There, now we've both put our personal beliefs above the other.

      1. Jesus already nixed the whole shellfish thing in the New Testament (same thing about the pork thing). Don't know about the more than one material clothing thing, though.

      2. God also made clear that he considered the act of a man sleeping with a man as if they are a woman (ie, homosexuality) an abomination, something he has NOT done with other acts. Heck, he even blew up two communities because of it.

      3. Do I really have to point out that Jesus being crucified is actually backed up by Roman law documents? That means God DOES exist.

      And like I said, your arguing for representation just shows you are kotowing to Hollywood's agenda, since they think the same thing.

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    • Sodom and gemorrah where destroyed because of selfishness, not being gay.

      Jesus being crucified does not mean that god exists, it means that a dude named jesus existed.

      No. Asking for representation means that you're a person who wants to be represented in media. It means that you don't want to be told that your existence is impossible in a fantasy setting where aliens and energy blasts exist. You dont know what representation means to people because you've never not had constant representation and catering to who you are.

      I also know that you've never taken the time to research the importance of representation because you ignorantly called it hollywood's agenda.

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    • And here we go with religious hypocrisy...

      Your religion is not the only one, your god is not the only one, and your interpretation of your religion is not the only one. I don't have the patience to point out your egregious errors regarding the Bible, but then I'm not surprised you know so little about it. You've never read it yourself, I'm guessing.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Sodom and gemorrah where destroyed because of selfishness, not being gay.

      Jesus being crucified does not mean that god exists, it means that a dude named jesus existed.

      No. Asking for representation means that you're a person who wants to be represented in media. It means that you don't want to be told that your existence is impossible in a fantasy setting where aliens and energy blasts exist. You dont know what representation means to people because you've never not had constant representation and catering to who you are.

      I also know that you've never taken the time to research the importance of representation because you ignorantly called it hollywood's agenda.

      1. They actually WERE killed because of their sexuality in addition to their being selfish. Or do I have to point out that when the angels were sent in to investigate the city and warn Lot, the inhabitants essentially threatened to rape them (and the angels were male).

      2. I'm pretty sure the law documents also covered Jesus's resurrection as well.

      3. I actually DO know what representation is, and have done research into it. Want a good example of what representation actually is? Look at JJ Abram's comment during the Emmys, where he said, and I quote, "We wrote these characters but when we went to cast it, one of the things I had felt, having been to the Emmys a couple times — you look around that room and you see the whitest (censored) room in the history of time. Its just unbelievably white. And I just thought, we’re casting this show and we have an opportunity to do anything we want, why not cast the show with actors of color?" Emphasis mine. In other words, forced diversity, often for the sake of it, and it pretty much does a disservice to films (just look at how The Force Awakens turned out). Or how about Gary Whitta and Chris Weitz claiming that the Rebels were "a multicultural group led by brave women." And I never said that their existence should be impossible. I said they shouldn't change a character's whole identity just to make a gay character (in the first season, Alex was straight). And even IF I did say that, who the heck cares?! Did Disney collapse during the 1980s for not including gays among their cast? Absolutely not!

      Orion Invictus wrote: And here we go with religious hypocrisy...

      Your religion is not the only one, your god is not the only one, and your interpretation of your religion is not the only one. I don't have the patience to point out your egregious errors regarding the Bible, but then I'm not surprised you know so little about it. You've never read it yourself, I'm guessing.

      True, Catholicism isn't the only religion out there, but there IS only one God (God himself made that VERY clear). All the others are false gods. And my "interpretation" comes directly from the actual bible, from God's own words (and also the Catechism).

      Also, for the record, I actually HAVE read the bible, or at the very least various readings from the bible on Sunday, and in fact, during Lent, I've even read readings on them every day of Lent this year.

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    • Disney also didn't collapse for being incredibly racist. What's your point?

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    • Make up your mind, did Jesus nix the Old Testament or not? Because all the anti-gay stuff is in the Old Testament, last I checked. Then again, the Bible has been edited so heavily by the people who assembled it out of a quasi-random assortment of books, I wouldn't be surprised if those particular verses got moved to the New Testament.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Disney also didn't collapse for being incredibly racist. What's your point?

      Disney wasn't racist at all (heck, if anything, the crows in Dumbo actually HELPED the titular character in his time of need, which meant that if anything, Disney treated blacks ESPECIALLY well. Same goes for Songs of the South. You want an ACTUAL racist piece of work? Try looking at The Birth of a Nation [the one by DW Griffith].). And for the record, he wasn't anti-Semitic either (that was a lie spread by Communists in response to him cleaning out the unions at Disney, which were infested by them. One of his best friends in the Animation field was Jewish after all. If anyone was an anti-Semite, it was Karl Marx, who was arguably the guy who WROTE the Jewish Question that the Nazis infamously tried to pull a Frieza to solve.).

      Orion Invictus wrote: Make up your mind, did Jesus nix the Old Testament or not? Because all the anti-gay stuff is in the Old Testament, last I checked. Then again, the Bible has been edited so heavily by the people who assembled it out of a quasi-random assortment of books, I wouldn't be surprised if those particular verses got moved to the New Testament.

      1. Jesus never nixed the Old Testament at all. He may have changed some laws from the Old Testament like with the whole ban on eating certain foods being lifted, but make no mistake, he never nixed it.

      2. Jesus and his disciples also made it clear even in the New Testament that the law against homosexuality still applied, and even specifically stated homosexuals as being among those who cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in one of the Gospels. And use common sense, do you REALLY think Jesus would have even LET his disciples live if they tried to twist his words without his consent?

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    • I'm gonna assume this is a troll and get back on topic: Kale does come across as a lesbian who's infatuated by Caulifla, hence all the rage whenever anyone comes close to Caulifla, especially in a friendly/flirty manner.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: Disney also didn't collapse for being incredibly racist. What's your point?

      Disney treated blacks ESPECIALLY well.
      

      Oh wow, an alt-reich. Nvm there isn't any reason to talk to you.

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    • Like I said earlier, I really don't want Kale to be a lesbian (and this is speaking as someone who actually was glad that she was created as a character, especially her Broly-esque transformation). It was unneeded and just seemed to ruin her as a character (even moreso when she started hating Goku for extremely unsympathetic reasons).

      @NervousShipper: At least Disney didn't depict blacks as being villainous brutish rapists and sexual athletes with low intellect. If anything, Norman Mailer's depiction of blacks was far worse, where he did in fact depict them as being little more than sexual athletes with little intellect.

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    • Orion Invictus wrote: I'm gonna assume this is a troll and get back on topic: Kale does come across as a lesbian who's infatuated by Caulifla, hence all the rage whenever anyone comes close to Caulifla, especially in a friendly/flirty manner.

      Yeah, she's a lesbian

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    • The difference between having Kale as a potential lesbian and shifting a character's preferences or sexuality as 'pandering' is that Kale has had no prior characterization than her bond with Caulifla. There's never a suggestion she had romantic interest in anyone else nor does she seem to have the orientation 'shoved' onto her after being a different character altogether. 



      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 


      Also if Broly is still obsessed with a male Saiyan in his new movie it'll confirm green haired form are unlocked via being a gay yandere, which is in line with early Dragon Ball's endless dick/balls jokes. I'm annoyed by 'pandering' in some cases but I'll just find it more funny and light-hearted for the characters to have that connection. So screw it, I'm in. 

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    • The question is not whether or not she's a lesbian. The question is whether she's the top or the bottom. Personally, I'd go with bottom, but her LSS form does bring that into question. Maybe she's versatile.

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    • Venithil wrote: The difference between having Kale as a potential lesbian and shifting a character's preferences or sexuality as 'pandering' is that Kale has had no prior characterization than her bond with Caulifla. There's never a suggestion she had romantic interest in anyone else nor does she seem to have the orientation 'shoved' onto her after being a different character altogether. 



      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 


      Also if Broly is still obsessed with a male Saiyan in his new movie it'll confirm green haired form are unlocked via being a gay yandere, which is in line with early Dragon Ball's endless dick/balls jokes. I'm annoyed by 'pandering' in some cases but I'll just find it more funny and light-hearted for the characters to have that connection. So screw it, I'm in. 

      Broly's got a grudge against Goku. It has nothing to do with love or even lust. He just wants Goku dead. And make no mistake, he'd probably have the same obsession regardless of Goku's gender. It's like saying Ahab is a gay beastialist just because he constantly obsesses over Moby Dick, or how Kazuhira Miller is gay for Huey Emmerich just because he was obsessed with getting revenge on the latter for selling out MSF.

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    • Venithil wrote:
      The difference between having Kale as a potential lesbian and shifting a character's preferences or sexuality as 'pandering' is that Kale has had no prior characterization than her bond with Caulifla. There's never a suggestion she had romantic interest in anyone else nor does she seem to have the orientation 'shoved' onto her after being a different character altogether.  In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 

      The funny thing is that every show on the planet panders to straight people, but never gets called out for it since the only people who call representation "pandering" are insecure straight people.

      Anyway, different mediums have different versions of characters. Very few people get mad at elseworld stories in DC or non-616 stories in Marvel.

      And discovering or accepting your sexuality later in life is not that uncommon, especially with how... vicious straight people were in the past when it came to shoving their "normal" values onto more accepting societies.

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    • KidVegeta wrote:
      The question is not whether or not she's a lesbian. The question is whether she's the top or the bottom. Personally, I'd go with bottom, but her LSS form does bring that into question. Maybe she's versatile.

      I don't think lesbians have those roles? I mean they could just... mutually do it.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      KidVegeta wrote:
      The question is not whether or not she's a lesbian. The question is whether she's the top or the bottom. Personally, I'd go with bottom, but her LSS form does bring that into question. Maybe she's versatile.

      I don't think lesbians have those roles? I mean they could just... mutually do it.

      Could be that he meant it as a relationship role thing. Most people believe a relationship must always have a dominant party.

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:

      KidVegeta wrote:
      The question is not whether or not she's a lesbian. The question is whether she's the top or the bottom. Personally, I'd go with bottom, but her LSS form does bring that into question. Maybe she's versatile.
      I don't think lesbians have those roles? I mean they could just... mutually do it.
      Could be that he meant it as a relationship role thing. Most people believe a relationship must always have a dominant party.

      But if he meant relationship roles, he wouldn't have asked. Caulifla is clearly in charge of their relationship.

      I think the healthiest relationships aren't based on power, they're based on partnership. That said, I don't see anything wrong with power dynamic relationships as long as they're properly negotiated beforehand.

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    • She might be. But it could easily be a cultural thing. Japanese girls often act really intimate even when they're not sexually attracted. For Kale it could go either way until we have more evidence.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.

      The problem is that if we create a representation in the understanding of "LGBT fans", or more precisely, shipers with Thubmlr, then we simply will not have heterosexual female characters at all. And the mention of shiping in your nickname perfectly shows this. Most people do not need representation as such, they just need a lot of material for yaoi and yuri ships.

      Not to mention double standards, as Dragon Ball traditionally has a whole car of homoeroticism, but as a franchise is focused on guys and as guys we understand perfectly well that none of this was meant even as bisexuality. But for some reason, people are sure that this does not work with female characters, and in our time you simply cannot write about female friendship or opposition, without hearing that your heroes are lesbians and that any intimacy between them is supposedly "qeer coding".

      In any case, even the most radical fighters against "heterosexism" recognize that most people are straight, so it is rather strange to hear accusations that heterosexual people in their plots "pandering" to heterosexual people.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      She might be. But it could easily be a cultural thing. Japanese girls often act really intimate even when they're not sexually attracted. For Kale out could go either way until we have more evidence.

      Yeah, this is called "S type relationship" - a very close friendship built on spiritual love. In its original form, it was meant as a platonic near-lesbian relationship, but now it has turned into just an idealized notion of female friendship. This is what Kale's reference to “Onee-sama” and precisely because of this, her relationship with her friend is so obsessive. 

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    • ShibaBrother wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.

      The problem is that if we create a representation in the understanding of "LGBT fans", or more precisely, shipers with Thubmlr, then we simply will not have heterosexual female characters at all. And the mention of shiping in your nickname perfectly shows this. Most people do not need representation as such, they just need a lot of material for yaoi and yuri ships.

      Not to mention double standards, as Dragon Ball traditionally has a whole car of homoeroticism, but as a franchise is focused on guys and as guys we understand perfectly well that none of this was meant even as bisexuality. But for some reason, people are sure that this does not work with female characters, and in our time you simply cannot write about female friendship or opposition, without hearing that your heroes are lesbians and that any intimacy between them is supposedly "qeer coding".

      In any case, even the most radical fighters against "heterosexism" recognize that most people are straight, so it is rather strange to hear accusations that heterosexual people in their plots "pandering" to heterosexual people.

      It's not the LGBT that claim that any representation of a non-white, non-heterosexual character is pandering to that demographic. When it is said that shows pander to white heterosexuals, it's just applying that same logic they use to claim that any non-white, non-heterosexual characters are just "pandering".

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    • ShibaBrother wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.

      The problem is that if we create a representation in the understanding of "LGBT fans", or more precisely, shipers with Thubmlr, then we simply will not have heterosexual female characters at all. And the mention of shiping in your nickname perfectly shows this. Most people do not need representation as such, they just need a lot of material for yaoi and yuri ships.

      Not to mention double standards, as Dragon Ball traditionally has a whole car of homoeroticism, but as a franchise is focused on guys and as guys we understand perfectly well that none of this was meant even as bisexuality. But for some reason, people are sure that this does not work with female characters, and in our time you simply cannot write about female friendship or opposition, without hearing that your heroes are lesbians and that any intimacy between them is supposedly "qeer coding".

      In any case, even the most radical fighters against "heterosexism" recognize that most people are straight, so it is rather strange to hear accusations that heterosexual people in their plots "pandering" to heterosexual people.

      You just described it way better than I ever could. Thank you. And seriously, it actually does come across as stupid when girls are thought to be lesbians for stuff like that, or even bisexual. Ariel from Disney's The Little Mermaid was a genuine badass and probably wouldn't even stick out like a sore thumb if she somehow were put into Dragon Ball, yet she was fully heterosexual, fell in love with a guy, even had a kid with him going by the sequel. And let's not forget that Android 18 from Dragon Ball Z/Super is a fighter as well, and she obviously ain't a rug muncher, having married and genuinely loved Krillin, and like Ariel also had a kid with him. And let's not forget about Dead or Alive, where the girls participate in fights just as much as the guys, while remaining feminine, and they're indicated to be heterosexual (in fact, the closest the franchise has to a girl who isn't straight is Tamaki from Xtreme Venus Vacation, and even SHE's at least implied to be bisexual from her interactions with the Owner, and she's not even a fighter. Well, not yet, anyways.). And yes, agreed, in nature, to say little about religion, heterosexuals compose of the majority. Heck, that's practically required if you're to continue the propagation of humans, of any culture.

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    • Venithil wrote:

      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 

      "Japanese tradition" makes wide use of obsession with other people in a non-romantic or sexual sense. This is largely based on a Japanese term like "akogare", which implies such a passionate admiration that you "desire" this person and are obsessed with it. Alternatively, you are so obsessed with a strong rival, that you constantly think only of him and are ready to focus your whole life on confronting him. This is quite normal for Japanese culture, especially when it comes to young people. Hell, the sporty anime Tsurune is built entirely on research and discussion of this.

      That is why anime, manga and games contain so many characters whose obsession with their friends or rivals seems completely insane and reaching the level of yandere. Just do not forget that each culture has its own tropes, for example, the USA tends to portray cold die hard brutal men, which in American culture emphasizes their coolness and invincibility in the face of the enemy. You can also recall the archetype of "Cowboy Cop". This is called a "cultural archetype".

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    • ShibaBrother wrote:

      Venithil wrote:

      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 

      "Japanese tradition" makes wide use of obsession with other people in a non-romantic or sexual sense. This is largely based on a Japanese term like "akogare", which implies such a passionate admiration that you "desire" this person and are obsessed with it. Alternatively, you are so obsessed with a strong rival, that you constantly think only of him and are ready to focus your whole life on confronting him. This is quite normal for Japanese culture, especially when it comes to young people. Hell, the sporty anime Tsurune is built entirely on research and discussion of this.

      That is why anime, manga and games contain so many characters whose obsession with their friends or rivals seems completely insane and reaching the level of yandere. Just do not forget that each culture has its own tropes, for example, the USA tends to portray cold die hard brutal men, which in American culture emphasizes their coolness and invincibility in the face of the enemy. This is called a "cultural motive".

      That's not even a Japanese-exclusive trope. Recess for example had Mikey Blumberg being obsessed with matching up with Vince LaSalle after the latter saved him from an incoming baseball, as well as something similar being implied to have occurred in the ending when Mikey in turn saved Randall from a baseball. And bear in mind, all three are males, and Recess is an American-made cartoon series. Granted, the episode treated that as a bad thing overall, but even they didn't depict it in a romantic or sexual manner (though to be fair, they're kids). Something similar occurred with LeFou and Gaston in Beauty and the Beast (the 1991 version, NOT the 2017 remake). Or, heck, how about Jimmy Olsen and Clark Kent/Superman (and that one's an actual positive example of this)?

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:
      Make up your mind, did Jesus nix the Old Testament or not? Because all the anti-gay stuff is in the Old Testament, last I checked. Then again, the Bible has been edited so heavily by the people who assembled it out of a quasi-random assortment of books, I wouldn't be surprised if those particular verses got moved to the New Testament.

      Half-Jewish half-Christian boy in threade. The New Testament and Christianity as a whole never canceled the Old Testament. The nuance is that Christianity essentially claims the status of renewed Judaism, or vice versa, treats Judaism as an outdated form of Christianity. Thus, Jesus retains most of the basic principles of Judaism, except that he (according to the Bible, of course) considered a distortion of the Word of God, outdated or even openly blasphemous, such as commerce in temples.

      However, like Japan, the Bible has nothing against the "spiritual love" between people of the same sex, for example, in the Old Testament there is a moment where David gives the King Saul's son the line "My love for you is stronger than the love for women". They even have similar names - brotherly love in the Bible and sisterly love in modern Japan.

      As for Sodom and Gomorrah, it was destroyed after the residents desired two male angels and even attacked Lot’s house in an attempt to capture these two guys. It is for this reason that the biblical tradition uses the word "sodomy" as a term for perverse lust. In any case, I would not use the Bible as an authority on sexual relations, as this is the place where you can read at the same time how a guy married his first cousin, and then accused his son of incest only because he had sex on his father's bed.

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      ShibaBrother wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.
      The problem is that if we create a representation in the understanding of "LGBT fans", or more precisely, shipers with Thubmlr, then we simply will not have heterosexual female characters at all. And the mention of shiping in your nickname perfectly shows this. Most people do not need representation as such, they just need a lot of material for yaoi and yuri ships.

      Not to mention double standards, as Dragon Ball traditionally has a whole car of homoeroticism, but as a franchise is focused on guys and as guys we understand perfectly well that none of this was meant even as bisexuality. But for some reason, people are sure that this does not work with female characters, and in our time you simply cannot write about female friendship or opposition, without hearing that your heroes are lesbians and that any intimacy between them is supposedly "qeer coding".

      In any case, even the most radical fighters against "heterosexism" recognize that most people are straight, so it is rather strange to hear accusations that heterosexual people in their plots "pandering" to heterosexual people.

      It's not the LGBT that claim that any representation of a non-white, non-heterosexual character is pandering to that demographic. When it is said that shows pander to white heterosexuals, it's just applying that same logic they use to claim that any non-white, non-heterosexual characters are just "pandering".

      I doubt that in this case, someone indulges someone, because "adding two characters with close relationships" is not a representation, and shonen usually avoids politics because of a more strict censorship relationship with it.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      ShibaBrother wrote:


      Venithil wrote:

      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 

      "Japanese tradition" makes wide use of obsession with other people in a non-romantic or sexual sense. This is largely based on a Japanese term like "akogare", which implies such a passionate admiration that you "desire" this person and are obsessed with it. Alternatively, you are so obsessed with a strong rival, that you constantly think only of him and are ready to focus your whole life on confronting him. This is quite normal for Japanese culture, especially when it comes to young people. Hell, the sporty anime Tsurune is built entirely on research and discussion of this.

      That is why anime, manga and games contain so many characters whose obsession with their friends or rivals seems completely insane and reaching the level of yandere. Just do not forget that each culture has its own tropes, for example, the USA tends to portray cold die hard brutal men, which in American culture emphasizes their coolness and invincibility in the face of the enemy. This is called a "cultural motive".

      That's not even a Japanese-exclusive trope. Recess for example had Mikey Blumberg being obsessed with matching up with Vince LaSalle after the latter saved him from an incoming baseball, as well as something similar being implied to have occurred in the ending when Mikey in turn saved Randall from a baseball. And bear in mind, all three are males, and Recess is an American-made cartoon series. Granted, the episode treated that as a bad thing overall, but even they didn't depict it in a romantic or sexual manner (though to be fair, they're kids). Something similar occurred with LeFou and Gaston in Beauty and the Beast (the 1991 version, NOT the 2017 remake). Or, heck, how about Jimmy Olsen and Clark Kent/Superman (and that one's an actual positive example of this)?

      I understand the direction of your thoughts, but there is some difference. Western culture as a whole rather negatively perceives obsession, according to the Christian tradition, considering it an unhealthy passion. At the same time, obsession in Japanese culture is a special cultural code, often showing admiration, respect or principled behavior of characters. This is the reason why the Western viewer very often treats the character's obsession as a result of his psyche, since in Western culture this is not considered normal. It is unlikely that your friend of the same sex will take it easy if you tell him that you are obsessed with them, lol.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      ShibaBrother wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.
      The problem is that if we create a representation in the understanding of "LGBT fans", or more precisely, shipers with Thubmlr, then we simply will not have heterosexual female characters at all. And the mention of shiping in your nickname perfectly shows this. Most people do not need representation as such, they just need a lot of material for yaoi and yuri ships.

      Not to mention double standards, as Dragon Ball traditionally has a whole car of homoeroticism, but as a franchise is focused on guys and as guys we understand perfectly well that none of this was meant even as bisexuality. But for some reason, people are sure that this does not work with female characters, and in our time you simply cannot write about female friendship or opposition, without hearing that your heroes are lesbians and that any intimacy between them is supposedly "qeer coding".

      In any case, even the most radical fighters against "heterosexism" recognize that most people are straight, so it is rather strange to hear accusations that heterosexual people in their plots "pandering" to heterosexual people.

      You just described it way better than I ever could. Thank you. And seriously, it actually does come across as stupid when girls are thought to be lesbians for stuff like that, or even bisexual. Ariel from Disney's The Little Mermaid was a genuine badass and probably wouldn't even stick out like a sore thumb if she somehow were put into Dragon Ball, yet she was fully heterosexual, fell in love with a guy, even had a kid with him going by the sequel. And let's not forget that Android 18 from Dragon Ball Z/Super is a fighter as well, and she obviously ain't a rug muncher, having married and genuinely loved Krillin, and like Ariel also had a kid with him. And let's not forget about Dead or Alive, where the girls participate in fights just as much as the guys, while remaining feminine, and they're indicated to be heterosexual (in fact, the closest the franchise has to a girl who isn't straight is Tamaki from Xtreme Venus Vacation, and even SHE's at least implied to be bisexual from her interactions with the Owner, and she's not even a fighter. Well, not yet, anyways.). And yes, agreed, in nature, to say little about religion, heterosexuals compose of the majority. Heck, that's practically required if you're to continue the propagation of humans, of any culture.

      You'd be surprised, but Dead or Alive has a very vocal lesbian fandom, which has long dismantled all the girls on yuri pairing and interprets any interactions between the heroines as a lesbian attraction. I'm serious. I highly doubt that being a lesbian means seeing sexual partners in any women, but the representation in the view of many such people is simply the desire to turn your favorite show into a huge springboard for yuri shiping. It is rather ironic that at the same time the same people tend to scold ecchi in heterosexual romance, accusing the authors of “pandering to the pervert males”. 

      It will be very difficult for you to find a person who is screaming about representation, who is not involved in slash, and vice versa, there is always a very high probability that the person writing about gays and lesbians in the show will be yaoi and yuri shiper. This is so common that even the extremely tolerant for shiping resource TVTropes mentions "shiping under cover of LGBT representations" as one of the common elements of Fand Dumb.

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    • Yeah, why would people ever want to see themselves in fiction? That's why there are no "nerd wins over bully and gets with hot chick" stories....

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    • ShibaBrother wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      ShibaBrother wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Actually, you can. Hundreds of thousands of LGBT people relate to the straight characters when they watch media. Are you saying you lack the empathy required to understand people who aren't exactly like you? That would be really sad.
      The problem is that if we create a representation in the understanding of "LGBT fans", or more precisely, shipers with Thubmlr, then we simply will not have heterosexual female characters at all. And the mention of shiping in your nickname perfectly shows this. Most people do not need representation as such, they just need a lot of material for yaoi and yuri ships.

      Not to mention double standards, as Dragon Ball traditionally has a whole car of homoeroticism, but as a franchise is focused on guys and as guys we understand perfectly well that none of this was meant even as bisexuality. But for some reason, people are sure that this does not work with female characters, and in our time you simply cannot write about female friendship or opposition, without hearing that your heroes are lesbians and that any intimacy between them is supposedly "qeer coding".

      In any case, even the most radical fighters against "heterosexism" recognize that most people are straight, so it is rather strange to hear accusations that heterosexual people in their plots "pandering" to heterosexual people.

      You just described it way better than I ever could. Thank you. And seriously, it actually does come across as stupid when girls are thought to be lesbians for stuff like that, or even bisexual. Ariel from Disney's The Little Mermaid was a genuine badass and probably wouldn't even stick out like a sore thumb if she somehow were put into Dragon Ball, yet she was fully heterosexual, fell in love with a guy, even had a kid with him going by the sequel. And let's not forget that Android 18 from Dragon Ball Z/Super is a fighter as well, and she obviously ain't a rug muncher, having married and genuinely loved Krillin, and like Ariel also had a kid with him. And let's not forget about Dead or Alive, where the girls participate in fights just as much as the guys, while remaining feminine, and they're indicated to be heterosexual (in fact, the closest the franchise has to a girl who isn't straight is Tamaki from Xtreme Venus Vacation, and even SHE's at least implied to be bisexual from her interactions with the Owner, and she's not even a fighter. Well, not yet, anyways.). And yes, agreed, in nature, to say little about religion, heterosexuals compose of the majority. Heck, that's practically required if you're to continue the propagation of humans, of any culture.

      You'd be surprised, but Dead or Alive has a very vocal lesbian fandom, which has long dismantled all the girls on yuri pairing and interprets any interactions between the heroines as a lesbian attraction. I'm serious. I highly doubt that being a lesbian means seeing sexual partners in any women, but the representation in the view of many such people is simply the desire to turn your favorite show into a huge springboard for yuri shiping. It is rather ironic that at the same time the same people tend to scold ecchi in heterosexual romance, accusing the authors of “pandering to the pervert males”. 

      It will be very difficult for you to find a person who is screaming about representation, who is not involved in slash, and vice versa, there is always a very high probability that the person writing about gays and lesbians in the show will be yaoi and yuri shiper. This is so common that even the extremely tolerant for shiping resource TVTropes mentions "shiping under cover of LGBT representations" as one of the common elements of Fand Dumb.

      Yeah, I'm familiar about that vocal element of DOA fandom (heck, I've seen a few of those types on DeviantArt). However, from what I can glean into DOA (haven't played any of the games yet except for maybe XVV, and even that's fairly recent.), other than MAYBE Tamaki, all of the girls are implied to be heterosexual, and even Tamaki's only considered otherwise due to very obvious signs on her part such as her tendency to outright grope females (though even in her case, it's implied she's trying to gauge the girls' breast sizes for wardrobe research.), and even there, she obviously is attracted to the Owner (who is strongly implied to be male). I think she was officially stated to have a more "older sister-type demeanor" (not entirely sure what THAT means in Japan, though).

      And quite frankly, I really fail to see how the girls would even be that attracted to each other in the games beyond being BFFs at most. I've seen two otherwise straight girls actually hug each other publicly at school, and my mom even inferred that women are a bit more extroverted regarding expressing their feelings to each other. And yeah, I'm familiar with that bit you're describing as well (what's worse is that the actual showrunners actually do that as well. The fans doing it is one thing, but when the actual showrunners/writers managed to haphazardly and abruptly change a character's sexuality out of the blue without any prior foreshadowing, it just... I'm not even sure how to describe that travesty. They've done it with Alex Danvers in Supergirl, they've done it with Claire Bennet in Heroes, they've done it with Penguin in Gotham, etc., etc. At least with the likes of General Blue, you at least knew what you were getting from the very start.). Quite frankly, I really hope the guys doing Dragon Ball don't make Kale into a lesbian. At most, they really should make Kale's looking up to Caulifla more like, say, Tails' looking up to Sonic, for example. And I rarely ship anyways, even heterosexual ships, since I require that they fall for each other at first sight, and/or that they actually reciprocate each other's feelings (and I certainly don't plan on doing any yuri ships or yaoi ships. Probably the closest to an exception I can allow for regarding those kind of ships is Lana and Cia from Hyrule Warriors, and even THAT is strictly out of pragmatism thanks to those morons at Nintendo not having them fuse back into the Guardian of Time for whatever reason, especially when that's the closest they're ever gonna get to becoming one flesh again due to not being able to fuse back. Personally, I really wish that Lana and Cia just fused back together so that wouldn't have been an issue.).

      ShibaBrother wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      ShibaBrother wrote:


      Venithil wrote:

      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me).

      "Japanese tradition" makes wide use of obsession with other people in a non-romantic or sexual sense. This is largely based on a Japanese term like "akogare", which implies such a passionate admiration that you "desire" this person and are obsessed with it. Alternatively, you are so obsessed with a strong rival, that you constantly think only of him and are ready to focus your whole life on confronting him. This is quite normal for Japanese culture, especially when it comes to young people. Hell, the sporty anime Tsurune is built entirely on research and discussion of this.

      That is why anime, manga and games contain so many characters whose obsession with their friends or rivals seems completely insane and reaching the level of yandere. Just do not forget that each culture has its own tropes, for example, the USA tends to portray cold die hard brutal men, which in American culture emphasizes their coolness and invincibility in the face of the enemy. This is called a "cultural motive".

      That's not even a Japanese-exclusive trope. Recess for example had Mikey Blumberg being obsessed with matching up with Vince LaSalle after the latter saved him from an incoming baseball, as well as something similar being implied to have occurred in the ending when Mikey in turn saved Randall from a baseball. And bear in mind, all three are males, and Recess is an American-made cartoon series. Granted, the episode treated that as a bad thing overall, but even they didn't depict it in a romantic or sexual manner (though to be fair, they're kids). Something similar occurred with LeFou and Gaston in Beauty and the Beast (the 1991 version, NOT the 2017 remake). Or, heck, how about Jimmy Olsen and Clark Kent/Superman (and that one's an actual positive example of this)?

      I understand the direction of your thoughts, but there is some difference. Western culture as a whole rather negatively perceives obsession, according to the Christian tradition, considering it an unhealthy passion. At the same time, obsession in Japanese culture is a special cultural code, often showing admiration, respect or principled behavior of characters. This is the reason why the Western viewer very often treats the character's obsession as a result of his psyche, since in Western culture this is not considered normal. It is unlikely that your friend of the same sex will take it easy if you tell him that you are obsessed with them, lol.

      Yeah, I know. As I said, Mikey's obsession of emulating Vince was not depicted in a positive light in that episode. Was just saying it was still not treated in a romantic or sexual manner. Jimmy Olson's obsession with Clark Kent/Superman was treated positively, though (and unlikely to be romantic/sexual-based)...

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    • It's also weird how people don't seem to know what a bisexual is. Implied heteroxuality would be the case only if they also show no signs of the opposite/antagonism toward it.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: It's also weird how people don't seem to know what a bisexual is. Implied heteroxuality would be the case only if they also show no signs of the opposite/antagonism toward it.

      Even within the LGBT community, "LGBT" just means "LG" 90% of the time. 9% of the time it means "G", and the remainder 1% of the time it means "LGBT".

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Yeah, why would people ever want to see themselves in fiction? That's why there are no "nerd wins over bully and gets with hot chick" stories....

      There is nothing wrong. The problem is that people hide behind it to give a social or political rationale to their ships. Previously, the general accusation of homophobia was used for this (I have been watching shonens for quite a long time and indirectly because of this I am well acquainted with yaoi fandom), but since people understood that this never works, they began to refer to feminism and representation. In any case, the fact that canonical yuri and yaoi are much less popular than the ship-bait show perfectly emphasizes this.

      Therefore, I will once again emphasize my words. Representation is not the satisfaction of your fetishes or the trick to fill fiction with a non-real-life number of qeer people. As a half-Jew, I would like to see more Jews in the pop-culture, but I clearly don’t need a bunch of shows about worlds exclusively populated by Jews or sudden revelations that Spider-Man or Batman are Jews. And of course, I will not obsessively try to call all the characters as Jews if they just in theory could be Jews because they have a Mediterranean appearance or are fond of physics and playing violin.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      It's also weird how people don't seem to know what a bisexual is. Implied heteroxuality would be the case only if they also show no signs of the opposite/antagonism toward it.

      In 90%, bisexuality is portrayed in the anime either as a fan-service method to make a heterosexual character a “pervert” or as an explanation originating from nowhere for a ship who contradicts the character's original sexuality. Not to mention that shipers literally refuse to recognize a character’s bisexuality if it becomes the basis for a ship to be heterosexual. Therefore, the anime usually avoids bisexuality, with the exception of fan service or a brief demonstration that the gay character also finds the gender of the target audience attractive.

      If we are talking about real life, then bisexual is not lucky to be in two camps at the same time. Straight people think that you are gay with the ability to sleep with the opposite sex, so you must have a heterosexual relationship as a "chance to be normal", and gay people think that you are a gay traitor, who is either fake gay or deliberately abandoning your homosexuality in order to be accepted by heterosexual society. This leads to the fact that many bisexuals experience discrimination as “perverted straight” people, or they are being bullied as gays with “internal homophobia”, who are allegedly trying to become straight and make “false” heterosexual relationships.

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    • No she isn't and fortunately people like Toyo understood that. In the anime, they just tried to imitate Broly's docile and harmless nature which is completely opposite of his actual personality, she is a Broly ripoff after all. She simply finds Caulifla as her best friend but of course that doesn't stop shippers (oh, I really wish I could change the p with a t) to take mere friendships far beyond that.

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    • The real answer is no, because these types of shows are meant to reinforce so-called traditional values and allow for its viewers to escape from having to deal with their issues with people who are considered "other" to them. RE: Chichi, 18

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    • Camimiño wrote:
      No she isn't and fortunately people like Toyo understood that. In the anime, they just tried to imitate Broly's docile and harmless nature which is completely opposite of his actual personality, she is a Broly ripoff after all. She simply finds Caulifla as her best friend but of course that doesn't stop shippers (oh, I really wish I could change the p with a t) to take mere friendships far beyond that.

      Nope. That Broly was non-canon. Real Broly is a Kale ripoff. Also shitters? Do you believe you're clever?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Nope. That Broly was non-canon. Real Broly is a Kale ripoff.

      There's no official "canon" for DB but even if you go into that, OG Broly came first then Kale, who copied most of his poses so yeah, ripoff and a very annoying one in the anime. Sit down.

      Comparisons between Broly and Kale1
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    • I am sitting. Who types on a laptop while standing? Weird.

      Anyway, I can't help people who hate characters because their voices are higher than the version they're comfortable with.

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    • Also there isn't a saiyan in the series who doesn't have the same power up pose and scream. And nearly every fight in the show is comprised of three fighting moves on a loop in between slamming through rocks, flying at each other, and dodged energy blasts. Given the lack of originality there, I don't see how a person could see Kale's "rip-off" stances as anything other than an homage to the elseworld character they've alreay replaced with a main-continuity one. Sorry you don't understand what continuity is, but two different versions of one character cannot exist in the same one without traveling to it.

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    • She looks up to, and respects Caulifla to the point she sees her like not only a best friend, but as a sister.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      She looks up to, and respects Caulifla to the point she sees her like not only a best friend, but as a sister.

      Which is the point. Whether Kale is or isn't a lesbian (she isn't, since she's not portrayed as evil or disgusting by homophobes), it doesn't matter. Caulifla isn't.

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    • Wow best topic ever.

      So what if she was ? Or what if she wasn't ? How would you know ?

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    • I can’t stand any of the U6 saiyans to be perfectly honest.

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    • Ahmeddilmi.2003 wrote:
      Wow best topic ever.

      So what if she was ? Or what if she wasn't ? How would you know ?

      Honestly, discussing the shiping community, the Bible’s view of homosexuality and people's obsession with female sexuality, I had already forgotten about her, lol. Personally, I think not, this is a common case of akogare and the influence of Class S on the image of female friendship.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      and on how homophobic the writers are

      And since when not pleasing lgbt shippers makes one homophobic?

      A writer is free to portray characters with whatever skin color or sexual orientation they want for their story. If they want 6 white characters and 1 black, that's ok, if they want 6 black and 1 white, that's ok too, doesn't mean they're racist. Likewise, if both the anime and manga showed Kale and Caulifla as merely friends/teammates, that doesn't mean they discriminate or hate gays, I'm sorry.

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    • It's that every gay character they do write is offensive.

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    • Says who, you? because the majority of people didn't have a problem with them, not even those from the lgbt. All are rather looking at the bigger picture, the new stories and the characters.

      These are all caricatures and are meant to have exaggerated stereotypes just like in games, lots of people get that except the sensitive groups who make mountains out of molehills. Anyway, Toriyama didn't offend anyone.

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    • AngerotSun wrote:
       

      Says who, you? because the majority of people didn't have a problem with them, not even those from the lgbt. All are rather looking at the bigger picture, the new stories and the characters.

      These are all caricatures and are meant to have exaggerated stereotypes just like in games, lots of people get that except the sensitive groups who make mountains out of molehills. Anyway, Toriyama didn't offend anyone.

      Just a noticeable part of the LGBT community has become too spoiled and turned into a naughty child who starts tantrums if he does not get what he wants. Because of this, we have a cult of victimness and thousands of people who enjoy the fact that someone has "offended" them. In my country, the same thing happens with religion, as the church tries to make the country more clerical after the government has done what they wanted a couple of times.

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    • Why is this thread even still here...

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    • BEST. REPLY. EVER.

      ShibaBrother wrote:

      Venithil wrote:

      In Japan tradition (nowadays things changed a lot) homosexuality was accepted as potential part of the growing process (especially for girls) in teens and young adults, although generally 'traditional' media and some modern media show the young homosexual couples either being dutiful and marrying heterosexually or growing out of their previous preference to a large extent for various reasons. Nowadays long-term and life-long homosexuality is more accepted, which is why it's reasonable to assume Kale is either of those tropes, as well as the (non-romantic/non-sexual) psycho admirer (though personally the last one feels least likely to me). 

      "Japanese tradition" makes wide use of obsession with other people in a non-romantic or sexual sense. This is largely based on a Japanese term like "akogare", which implies such a passionate admiration that you "desire" this person and are obsessed with it. Alternatively, you are so obsessed with a strong rival, that you constantly think only of him and are ready to focus your whole life on confronting him. This is quite normal for Japanese culture, especially when it comes to young people. Hell, the sporty anime Tsurune is built entirely on research and discussion of this.

      That is why anime, manga and games contain so many characters whose obsession with their friends or rivals seems completely insane and reaching the level of yandere. Just do not forget that each culture has its own tropes, for example, the USA tends to portray cold die hard brutal men, which in American culture emphasizes their coolness and invincibility in the face of the enemy. You can also recall the archetype of "Cowboy Cop". This is called a "cultural archetype".

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    • Caulifla gently cupped Kale's chin with her thumb resting at the corner of Kale's mouth. Kale straight-up calls Caulifla her "one and only" as she goes into a rage. Why is this a question? They are undeniably gay. On a scale from Ellen Page to Ellen Degeneres, this is an Ellen/10.

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    • Full Metal Dragon wrote:
      Caulifla gently cupped Kale's chin with her thumb resting at the corner of Kale's mouth. Kale straight-up calls Caulifla her "one and only" as she goes into a rage. Why is this a question? They are undeniably gay. On a scale from Ellen Page to Ellen Degeneres, this is an Ellen/10.

      You read what I wrote about obsession above? Damn, Leandro Izquierdo even repost my comment about this right in front of you.

      With regard to hand movements, this is a common intimate activity in Japanese culture, which can have many meanings depending on the context. The Japanese ways of expressing affection or intimacy are quite different from typical Western ones, so you should always be wary of this. For example, Reiko from Natsume's book was a completely heterosexual character, but in one episode she gently stroked the face of a female ghost with her hand to show that she was safe.

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    • And what about Japanese lesbian culture? It fits that outline really well, too.

      People said Korra and Asami weren't bi. "They're just friends. She's comforting each other because they're the only girls on the team." People said that Marceline and Bubblegum weren't bi. "They just used to be friends, that's all." This is the "Just gals being pals." meme.

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    • Full Metal Dragon wrote:
      And what about Japanese lesbian culture? It fits that outline really well, too.

      People said Korra and Asami weren't bi. "They're just friends. She's comforting each other because they're the only girls on the team." People said that Marceline and Bubblegum weren't bi. "They just used to be friends, that's all." This is the "Just gals being pals." meme.

      Nice sophistry. With exactly the same logic, I can justify to you any pairing in non-yuri or non-yaoi show. If no jokes, then what you are now used is a typical example of the Galileo gambit . Not to mention the fact that both of the examples you cited relate to Western shows and have their own context.

      As for the "Japanese lesbian culture", the show already has canonical lesbians, as has already been said directly on the screen. Why, then, did the authors have to hide this pairing by pure subtext? Why does manga maximally remove any subtext between them? Anyway, what you are trying to call “Japanese lesbian culture” is actually called “S-type relationships” and is very indirect about sexuality.

      P.S I can also make a joke about qeer people's love to see any anime friends as gay and lesbian (hello, shonens and CGDCT shows), recording any moments of friendship in "qeer coding and subtext", but I think that generalizations are generally bad practice.

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    • Do you really want to use leandro as an example? He kudosed his own comment

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    • ShibaBrother wrote:

      Full Metal Dragon wrote:
      And what about Japanese lesbian culture? It fits that outline really well, too.

      People said Korra and Asami weren't bi. "They're just friends. She's comforting each other because they're the only girls on the team." People said that Marceline and Bubblegum weren't bi. "They just used to be friends, that's all." This is the "Just gals being pals." meme.

      Nice sophistry. With exactly the same logic, I can justify to you any pairing in non-yuri or non-yaoi show. If no jokes, then what you are now used is a typical example of the Galileo gambit . Not to mention the fact that both of the examples you cited relate to Western shows and have their own context.

      As for the "Japanese lesbian culture", the show already has canonical lesbians, as has already been said directly on the screen. Why, then, did the authors have to hide this pairing by pure subtext? Why does manga maximally remove any subtext between them? Anyway, what you are trying to call “Japanese lesbian culture” is actually called “S-type relationships” and is very indirect about sexuality.

      P.S I can also make a joke about qeer people's love to see any anime friends as gay and lesbian (hello, shonens and CGDCT shows), recording any moments of friendship in "qeer coding and subtext", but I think that generalizations are generally bad practice.

      Yeah, can you state who these canonical lesbians are? The only ones that come to mind at all are those two Universe 2 fighters who did that ring-out save on each other.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Do you really want to use leandro as an example? He kudosed his own comment

      It somehow interferes with the fact that he raised the comment that gave a brief answer to her question? 

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    • "Big sis" isn't just a term of respect, it's also a romantic term of familiarity used in Japanese. The argument that they are actually sisters can't be made either; Caulifla specifically uses the term "my sworn sister", showing that it is a relationship of choice, not blood. On top of that, "my one and only" goes a few steps beyond just friendly akogare.

      The 'canonical lesbians" in the show are just as much subtext as Kale and Caulifla are. Their existence isn't a counterpoint at all to the idea of Kale and Caulifla being canonical.

      Also, S-type isn't the same as lesbian culture in Japan. S-type is a genre and an idea, not a culture. Proliferation of S-type stereotypes marginalizes and devalues lesbianism, treating it as a phase girls are supposed to grow out of. You can make the argument that this is S-type and not lesbianism, and that's fine, but don't try to say that S-type is Japanese lesbian culture.

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    • Full Metal Dragon wrote:
      "Big sis" isn't just a term of respect, it's also a romantic term of familiarity used in Japanese. The argument that they are actually sisters can't be made either; Caulifla specifically uses the term "my sworn sister", showing that it is a relationship of choice, not blood. On top of that, "my one and only" goes a few steps beyond just friendly akogare.

      The 'canonical lesbians" in the show are just as much subtext as Kale and Caulifla are. Their existence isn't a counterpoint at all to the idea of Kale and Caulifla being canonical.

      Also, S-type isn't the same as lesbian culture in Japan. S-type is a genre and an idea, not a culture. Proliferation of S-type stereotypes marginalizes and devalues lesbianism, treating it as a phase girls are supposed to grow out of. You can make the argument that this is S-type and not lesbianism, and that's fine, but don't try to say that S-type is Japanese lesbian culture.

      Do not confuse the relationship type S and Class S. This is the first. Secondly, all your arguments are based on pure speculation that we should take ambiguous points exactly as you want and in no other way. This term is not used in modern Japanese life, and secondly, it is not uniquely romantic. So, trying to argue that they use this term in a romantic sense, because they are not real sisters, also does not make sense. Regarding the connection between akogare and obsession, I have already spoken about it several times to you and the rest.

      Nope. The characters directly say that they are a couple and even call their relationship a symbol of their universe. You still cannot answer why this never happens with our heroines and why manga avoids it at all. Ironically, you are trying to deny the canonicity of some lesbians, to be able to confirm the canonicity of others.

      This is also ironic, considering that Class S is responsible for the birth of the yuri genre and 90% of modern lesbian stereotypes, especially the "onee-sama" mentioned by you, for which you are trying so hard to grab. In the end, your knowledge of Japanese lesbian culture is so mixed up and broken that your messages are simply difficult to perceive without the temptation to answer you with a separate lecture on each your line.

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    • I never once denied the canonocity of Kakunsa and Vikal. I never even suggested anything even close to that.

      Just because something is the foundation that something else is built on doesn't mean that it is relevant to what succeeds it. Everything has to start somewhere, and that was just the first step into making the later portrayals more acceptable.

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    • Full Metal Dragon wrote:
      I never once denied the canonocity of Kakunsa and Vikal. I never even suggested anything even close to that.

      Just because something is the foundation that something else is built on doesn't mean that it is relevant to what succeeds it. Everything has to start somewhere, and that was just the first step into making the later portrayals more acceptable.

      If you are interested in Japanese lesbian culture, then you should know that one of the most important authors of Class S was an open lesbian, and type S relationships were often viewed as platonic lesbian love, which is why modern Japanese culture loves see women’s friendship as form of love. This not only gives rise to blatant qeerbaiting, like Saki or Manaria Friends, but is also an interesting Japanese cultural phenomenon that goes beyond Western views about sexuality.

      As I said above 100 times, the relationship between girls is indeed mutual love, but it is platonic, “spiritual” love. This does not mean that they have "just a lesbian phase" or that they canonically cannot turn out to be qeer characters, this is just another. Super is generally full of hidden parody of various anime genres and cult works, so, in this case, you can perceive their relationship as the DBZ's version of MariMite.

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    • Since we'll never see them again, why can't each of us have our own interpretation without denigrating each other's view?

      Edit: Excluding people who think Disney doesn't have a racist past.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Since we'll never see them again, why can't each of us have our own interpretation without denigrating each other's view?

      Who said we can't? You can easily have your own interpretation and consider them lesbians without any problems, if you want. I am not the Word of God, I cannot forbid it to you. And frankly, I will not die due to the fact that someone doesn't agree with my arguments.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Since we'll never see them again, why can't each of us have our own interpretation without denigrating each other's view?

      Edit: Excluding people who think Disney doesn't have a racist past.

      1. Disney never had a racist past (for the record, Disney outright condemned the Nazis despite what Robot Chicken and Seth MacFarlane would like you to believe: Der Fuerher's Face, Education of Death, heck, Chicken Little even [yes, there was a Disney-made cartoon before the one in 2000], all proved that Disney NEVER adhered to the Nazi ideal or was actually racist). Believe me, if Disney actually DID have a racist past, Songs of the South would have made the Uncle Remus character into an outright villain in the most crass manner possible, and made the heroes into the KKK. You know, like Birth of a Nation by DW Griffith.

      2. I always get irritated when we're told to have our own view on things. The only thing that ultimately matters is what the creator of the work itself says, not us. Probably the only exception is if the creator contradicts himself/herself in a blatant manner (and I mean objective, empirically-based contradictions, like, for example Obi-Wan's mentor being Qui-Gon when earlier Yoda was stated to be his mentor).

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    • Yoda is shown teaching the younglings the basics. He is old enough that it is entirely plausible that he was Obi-Wan's very first teacher before Quigon accepted him as a padawan.

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    • Full Metal Dragon wrote: Yoda is shown teaching the younglings the basics. He is old enough that it is entirely plausible that he was Obi-Wan's very first teacher before Quigon accepted him as a padawan.

      Except some of Obi-Wan's statements, in particular his reminder to Yoda that Obi-Wan himself had been as brash as Luke at the latter's age (and bear in mind, Luke was a LOT older than his father Anakin was when he underwent Jedi training, to the extent that he was close to a full adult), point to Obi-Wan having been personally taught by Yoda for most of his life, not effectively acting like his kindergarten teacher.

      Anyways, that was just one example. Another example would be Lucas claiming he always had Greedo shoot first against Han, when the shooting script penned by Lucas himself made it pretty clear that, no, even back then, Han shot first. Or hey, how about Hideo Kojima's mishandling of his IP Metal Gear series with so many retcons that if it were a ship, it'd sink in half a second from having many holes comparable to swiss cheese.

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    • One can only hope we will never see them again...

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    • A FANDOM user
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