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  • So some of my friends have told me that Goku has absorbed God into his base form, making his base form equal to God Goku from the Battle of Gods. And Super Saiyan multiplies his Base form by 50(so BoG God Goku x50). And I'm also sure that Goku got much stronger because of the Goku Black arc. So that means that ToP Base Goku is stronger then Battle of Gods God Goku. 

    So during the ToP Caulifa went Super Saiyan 2 and was equal if not stronger then Base form Goku. So how is this? How is Caulifa that stronger, how is her SSJ2 form much stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku? If so how did she get so strong?

    My friend maybe be completely wrong but I trust him because he told me about almost everything I know in DragonBall. 

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    • First off, to answer the question, yes. The way she is portrayed in the ToP would make her stronger than (or at least equal to) BoG SSG Goku. Call it bad writing if you want, its just how it is.

      As for how, U6 Saiyans evolved differently than U7 Saiyans. Cabba was equal to Base U6 Tournament Vegeta (without Saiyan Beyond God), and Caulifla is much stronger than Cabba, so that naturally puts her and Cabba's base in the high Buu Saga Tier (and maybe beyond), so this would put her SSJ2 form at/above BoG SSG Goku.

      And as for how she got so strong, Caulifla was stated to have unbelievable potential, and she was trained by Cabba (who was trained by Vegeta) and by Goku during their fight, plus her and Kale's power was increasing the entire time.

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    • They retconned that, Goku was able to transform into Super Saiyan God in TOP meaning the whole his base = Super Saiyn Gods power now thing is false. His base is indeed much stronger than before he became a Super Saiyan God, that much is true thanks to him now possessing God Ki.. but it is nowhere near his power as a Super Saiyan God otherwise he would never need to transform into Super Saiyan God again which he did multiple times in the TOP

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    • Goku's power as his base form is as powerful as it was when he transformed into a ssj god in BoG and absorbed the fresh god power. Thus he is able to transform into it again after learning god ki control from Whis and the form is in fact stronger then it was in BoG but still weaker then Ssj Blue at the time.

      Other then that how did Vegeta learn to become a Ssj God? He was never shown doing the ritual.

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    • Zenkai

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    • In the manga, he did the ritual off screen. In the anime, he did a special training and got it from Whis, without having to do the ritual. Evidently Angels can give special training which gives God Ki, Toppo and Vegeta are proof.

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    • Wish that was more elaborated on the Angels' abilites.

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    • So Universe 6 Saiyans are stronger? Why?

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    • Breeie wrote:
      So Universe 6 Saiyans are stronger? Why?

      Because a peaceful existance is required to get more super saiyan mediclorians


      What color would Super Saiyan Rosé Evolution have?

      What about Legendary Super Saiyan Rosé?

      Or Legendary Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution?

      Or Legendary Super Saiyan Rosé Evolution?

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    • The Resurrection F+ Goku Normal >= BoG saga SSG Goku thing was doubtful at best before. Now Goku can transform into SSG in both manga and anime, Piccolo is actually a challenge for Frost who was fighting SSJ Goku on a relatively even level even if he was losing noticeably, and Gohan as well as #17 approach levels of opponents who Goku had trouble with as a SSG/SSB. 



      But it is quite possible Caulifla and Kale are in a level of power similar to BoG SSG Goku, yes. But Caulifla far less so. 

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    • Breeie wrote: So Universe 6 Saiyans are stronger? Why?

      Because they evolved differently.

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    • In the RoF saga, Beerus stated that Goku's base is a lot stronger than before. He clearly retained the SSBG power.

      Also, SSBG is stated to have no divinity, but has the strength of his God Form by Beerus. So he doesn't need god ki, and can stack other forms on top of it.

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    • ByAsura wrote: In the RoF saga, Beerus stated that Goku's base is a lot stronger than before. He clearly retained the SSBG power.

      What is SSBG?

      Also, SSBG is stated to have no divinity, but has the strength of his God Form by Beerus. So he doesn't need god ki, and can stack other forms on top of it.

      Again, what is SSBG? If you mean SSB, then that is completely incorrect. Blue does have divinity, do you not rememer the Exhibition Match? When Goku went SSB the Kais and GoDs were shocked and said that Goku had divine power. Zamasu even said that Goku had divine aura when he saw SSB on God Tube. He needs God Ki to activate Blue, because its a God Form.

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    • Saiyan beyond God/Goku's base, not Super Saiyan Blue, i don't even think they had the form at this point in the RoF saga (it was actually pre RoF, but post BoG, while training with Whis and Beerus). My mistake on that part, i meant SBG.

      I know Blue has God Ki, that's the entire point of the form's existence. If i recall correctly, he says "So this is what a warrior race clad in Godly Ki looks like".

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    • I think he means "Super Saiyan Beyond God". I.E just the normal super saiyan form that a Saiyan beyond God can use.

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    • Yes.

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    • The one that Goku tranformed into when he battled Toppo and was getting crushed by him.

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    • Oh wait, no, i read it wrong. I just mean his base with the God Power.

      Though, it's sort of like that. He can stack forms on it, eg. Super Saiyan.

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    • Yeah Goku's base is not as strong as Super Saiyan God from BoG. that is a common misconception. Otherwise anybody who can compete with goku's base right now would be much stronger than Super Saiyan God and it would render Beerus's dream pointless because he could just fight any random idiot that is on Base Goku's level.  Along with a slew of other evidence.



      However, Goku's golden SSJ should be significantly stronger than Goku's SSG from BoG so since Caulifla can compete with Goku in SSJ2 she is surely much stronger than BoG SSG Goku.

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    • Anyone can compete with the regular Super Saiyan form and it's rendered it's feared repuatation as the mightest force in the universe and Frieza's motivation for obliterating the saiyan race pointless.

      The Powers that Goku exhibited in BOG have long been surpassed by the most powerful fighters of team universe 7. But Goku's growth in power SINCE then has risen tremendously. Kaioken times 20 ssj blue which is far more powerful then god.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      Kaioken times 20 ssj blue which is far more powerful then god.

      And KKx20SSB is far weaker than SSGSSE (After Toppo)

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:

      Kaioken times 20 ssj blue which is far more powerful then god.

      And KKx20SSB is far weaker than SSGSSE (After Toppo)

      Probably. We'll never know.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:

      Kaioken times 20 ssj blue which is far more powerful then god.

      And KKx20SSB is far weaker than SSGSSE (After Toppo)

      Probably. We'll never know.

      We do know because they were portrayed as identical, but contrarians will be contrarians...

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:

      Kaioken times 20 ssj blue which is far more powerful then god.

      And KKx20SSB is far weaker than SSGSSE (After Toppo)
      Probably. We'll never know.

      Nah, you'll never know, since you can't watch a show and extrapolate information from it... or even accept the information that's clearly presented.

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    • I think its stronger.

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    • I think its pretty obvious that SSBKK > SSB Complete by feats alone

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:

      Kaioken times 20 ssj blue which is far more powerful then god.

      And KKx20SSB is far weaker than SSGSSE (After Toppo)
      Probably. We'll never know.
      Nah, you'll never know, since you can't watch a show and extrapolate information from it... or even accept the information that's clearly presented.

      Given that there wasn't solid concrete evidence of blue evolution being stronger then kaioken times 20 because the two forms were seeing working together fighting Jiren and seem to have been even in power against him. But Goku never tried to fight GoD Toppo with the form

      And given how inconsistent everything is. It will never be soldly proven that one is stronger then the other. btw, personal attacks are a big no-no.

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    • Doesn't matter, vegeta and Jiren were equally fighting Jiren, then vegeta fought topping, was losing, and then powered up dramatically. Vegeta is more powerful. In fact, since Goku can't achieve Ultra instinct except under extreme pressure, Vegeta is more powerful than him now.

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    • No it doesn't Jiren and Vegea were NOT equally fighting. Jiren was superior to Vegeta and was dominating and Jiren's main aspect of his fighting style is he only uses enough power to just overpower his opponents but still give them a fighting chance. Even when he was using his "full power" he was still purposly sand bagging around with his opponents.


      So yes it does matter. It's impossilbe to scale Kaioken times 20 to blue evolution just because of them fighting one opponent together and then Vegeta goes and battles toppo himself. It doesn't prove that Vegeta's Blue evolution is more powerful then kaioken times 20. 

      That is just assumption and not fully sold evidence. None of the articles on these subjects give any indication that Vegeta was more powerful then Goku in those forms.

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    • You don't need the articles to give indication. You just need to watch the show and its obvious

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    • It's not obvious. Nothing in the show gave any indication that Kaioken times 20 is weaker then evolution. Using just Toppo is not concrete evidence, nothing was elaborated on if Goku could stand up to Toppo in that form with the kaioken times 20.

      What i get from watching the show is that power scaling makes absolutley no sense and it was full of ass pulls. The biggest one is how Goku kept  recovering to fight after taking heavy damage from different foes and act like he wasn't hurt at all. And within the course of 48 minutes shown in over 8 months of episodes.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: It's not obvious.

      Only to you. The rest of us figured it out.

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    • Smh. Believe what you want. No evidence supported facts of Goku being weaker then vegeta.

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    • Thank you for admitting Goku being weaker thAn Vegeta is a fact.

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    • ...

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    • So how did Caufifa get so strong, enough so that she can stand up to BoG God Goku. 

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    • Goku was tired

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    • He could still use Super Saiyan Blue, he wasn’t that tired.

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    • No, but when it comes to fighting he’s also not stupid. Blue is more of a drain so God is used because he doesn’t need Blues power to beat her.

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    • He could also use kaioken x20 with blue, and still had enough energy to use UI.

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    • UI is a different beast altogether and you know it.

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    • One which requires far more energy to maintain than all of his forms (sans MUI).

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    • If that were the case Goku wouldn't have been smacked down with his own energy considering he wouldn't have had enough energy to maintain the form after barely having any time to recover his stamina for the 300th time in the tournament, even with the tiny amount of power Vegeta would have had left to donate to him after being beaten to hell without the ability to even go super saiyan 1.

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    • It's shown consistently that he has stamina issues with the form. The first time he used it, Goku had basically no energy afterwards, and the Second time had the same results despite the fact that he could easily use X20 Blue. It was not a tiny amount of energy, it was said that it brought him to full stamina. 

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    • If it was enough energy to bring him to full stamina, it's enough energy to get Vegeta to SS2 level

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    • Goku with SSBKKx20 is not GoD level in power, the only time he is at that level of power is with UI - Sign and UI. Toppo was said to be no different than any other GoD, with the exception of the fact that he could not spam destruction blasts like the other GoD's can since he was not as experienced as them with it. GoD Toppo beats SSBKKx20 Goku. SSGSSE Vegeta Beats GoD Toppo. It is clear SSGSSE is above SSB Complete and SSBKKx20. To deny that is just blindness, considering Golden Frieza maximum power is supposed to be equal to SSBKKx20 Goku, according to the TOP power ranking thing that was released having Frieza tied with Goku until he Got UI - Sign. GoD Toppo was raping Frieza, so I think this should be obvious guys.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      If it was enough energy to bring him to full stamina, it's enough energy to get Vegeta to SS2 level

      That doesn't matter, it still brought him back to full energy because Goku, at the time, was only using base.

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    • @Quaking Star

      Are you talking to me?

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    • ByAsura wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      If it was enough energy to bring him to full stamina, it's enough energy to get Vegeta to SS2 level
      That doesn't matter, it still brought him back to full energy because Goku, at the time, was only using base.

      It matters. It shouldn't have brought him back to full. If it did, that's shitty writing and they should be ashamed of themselves.

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    • Well just because it shouldn't have, doesn't mean it didn't.

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    • Whis made it clear that Goku was acclimating to the tiredness and gaining second winds because of it. Another words his body was regenerating stamina and energy afterwards despite reaching zero in the tank... BUT it was Frieza who kickstarted his body by giving him a ton of energy to begin with and start it all.. and then Vegeta gave him his remaining energy to kickstart his body again later on.

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    • That proves my previous point about UI using a ton of energy.

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    • Saiyans always regain their full stamina and energy upon awakening to a new form or power. So yes UIS and UI do take massive energy. They are forms that the Angels and GoD's are supposed to be able to have.. not mortals like Goku which is why he can only reawaken the form each time he has to use it.. and why it has such massive drawbacks on him afterwards. Whis pretty much said this too.

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    • There's no evidence of kaioken times 20 being below GoD Toppo.  ​​​​​

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    • Actually there is. 

      Goku's limit broken Kaioken was portrayed as comparable to a limit broken Blue vegeta. This same Limit broken vegeta was easily stomped by GoD toppo, then powered up to beat him.

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    • It's based on the assumption that Kaioken times 20 was completely even with evolution BECAUSE of them battling Jiren and it's accounted on how much power he was putting out too battle them. He was fighting two battles at once so he could have been alterating between how much power he was putting out to each Saiyan. He was still somewhat relaxed when fighting them so he is perfectly capable of this.

      This is not evidence, it's not supported, nor was it ever mentioned afterwards that Vegeta surpassed Goku kaioken abilities. It was just a single quake of fury related moment that was suicidal but Vegeta got lucky. He nevered exhibited that power again afterwards and was still potrayed as even with kaioken blue times 20  Goku and still worthless to Jiren's full might.

      If it's disputable like i showed, it should not be used as evidence that kaioken times 20 is inferior to evolution. It was just a flare and Goku is perfectly capable of doing the same thing should he get triggered like Vegeta did.

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    • It was, if you actually watched the fight they were portrayed as comparable, i didn't say completley even, they were also putting up a fight against Jiren, which would have to put them in the same league regardless. No, he wasn't, they were both able to hurt him at the same time, as well as blast him back, he wasn't alternating every single point of the fight.

      He definitley surpassed his abilities with the rage boost. Yes, he was portrayed as comparable after and before the rage boost ended, that proves he's stronger. Also you're totally wrong, when 17, Goku, and Vegeta fought Jiren, Jiren says "I can see why you were able to beat toppo", so he still retained it even after he lost it before, and just to put it in context, Jiren did know that Toppo went GoD.

      You are totally missing the point here, it's not about being above Goku's capabilities, it's about his normal power when fighting Jiren with Vegeta.

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    • It was said by he was fighting two battles because Goku and Vegeta weren't coradnating their attacks on him which threw Jiren off balance for a while. So because of that he was fluxating his power between the two. Jiren does this to psychology mess with his oppoenents as to discourage them from trying again and to humilate them.

      What is disupted is that when Kaioken Goku battled Jiren afterwards, the same effect was potrayed from him that "Boosted" Evolution blue Vegeta exhibited, which was still useless. That alone contradicts what Jiren said about seeing how Vegeta defeated Toppo. That is a vauge statement.

      I've seen it before fighters say that when they can see their opponent's "Potential" especially if the opponent is the weaker of the two beyond their current powers. However it doesn't imply that Vegeta was actually using that same power that defeated Toppo before. As that was a suicidal move that shouldn't be repeated. 

      If these Saiyans get Zenkais from getting their asses kicked and then suddenly getting up again without being officaly healed then logically Goku should be a lot stronger then Vegeta because he's been beaten down more often then Vegeta was throughout the Tournament.

      It's too much assumption, speculations vauge speeches and no solid non disputed evidence to be supported. I will not accept it.

      If it was as what you would have described as "Clear" it would have been mentioned in the articles when these episodes aired. If you don't believe me. Put on what you said about evolution being stronger then Kaioken times 20 blue in the related articles and see what the community thinks. If it stays, i will change my mind.

      Other then that, i am done with this subject on this thread. It went off track about Battle of gods ssj god to suddenly Evolution blue Vegeta out of nowhere. Because someone couldn't resist the urge to try and suddenly over correct me which in fact can ruin discussions in the long run and can turn off people from coming back. It is NOT good for the community to do this.

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    • No, they still pushed him back at the same time. You are basically now saying he's holding back against both of them, which negates the point entirely. He was not holding back his power, there's not an ounce of evidence he constantly changed his abilities aside from the fact that he likes to crush his opponents wills, which he doesn't do by that method, he does it by taking their strongest attacks, and beating their strongest fighters.

      No it doesn't, it does not contradict anything at all, it only showed that Jiren powered up, which was obvious since he could stomp X20. It's not vague, he literally catches his punch, and says he could have beat GoD Toppo, you are adding headcanon, totally unfounded headcanon as well. Generally look at the language, he says that's "how you were able to beat Toppo", not he used his hidden potential surpasses it. "Suicidal Move" That was the Final Explosion, not the form, the fact he still has it contradicts you. 

      Not even the point, the point is that Toppo is superior to powered up X20 Goku when he fought Jiren with Beyond Blue Vegeta, and not 17, BBlue, and X20 Blue

      You are making far more assumptions, eg. Jiren holding back constantly during their fight and Jiren saying he meant Vegeta's potential is greater than GoD Toppo's.

      I'm not even going to bother arguing with that because i didn't bring it up out of nowhere, and you are "correcting" other people on this subject as well.

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    • I have nothing more to say, i've been more then clear on my stance that the arguement of evolution Blue  being stronger then kaioken times 20 blue has no solid leg to stand on and whatever you bring unless meets the criteria i set for it to be accepted, will never be able to change my mind on this.

      If you gonna try and refute what i say and ignore what i would reccomend then i no longer see any point on continuing this discussion then.

      Good day.

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    • What criteria? Your criteria? 

      Also note that this is really a question, it's not to advance the debate.

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    • Put what you believe is an established fact on the Articles. If you strongly feel this is right and not just an opinion on powerscaling. Then the encyclopedic community of Dragonball should be aware of this and if it's agreed you should have no problem.

      Otherwise this is just wasing everyone's time.

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    • Ok. I'm not going to do that, there's no point, the wiki isn't really for scaling between characters, just history and power gauging... and it'd probably get reverted.

      It's not wasting time, people can choose wether they are going to respond to something or not, and since you don't have any replies on the subject, i stopped talking about the particular subject, which you can see in the comment above your comment where i asked about the Criteria for it to be accepted.

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    • I got sideballed on this subject when i came to my conclusion about goku's growth since bog which then someone (inappropiately) just spouted EVOLUTION BLUE VEGETA IS STRONGER which in no way the thread was headding towards that. It was about Caulflia and Ssj God.

      So without then on the established articles, it will not be accepted as a fact then. And everything else i said still stands. Bottom line, this along with everything else in dragon ball is incosistant. Characters say one thing and something that goes against what they said happens.

      I get no vibes from Vegeta battle against GoD Toppo that he's permanently stronger then Kaioken 20 blue goku because 1. Goku never fought Toppo with both of them using these forms to help gauge their powers better.

      And 2. Vegeta's suppose "Boost" didn't change a thing with the fight with Jiren. Jiren "Chosed" to unleash his power "as a reward" to Universe 7 for defeating Toppo, not because he was despearate. It was established that Jiren was stronger then Kaioken times 20 Blue Goku by a very wide margin BEFORE his power up. That alone gave of vibes to the viewer that when Toppo told Goku that if his kaioken blue made him even Toppo. He was gauarnteed to lose the tournament because of Jiren's power being superior was firmly cemented.

      This feeds the idea that anything other then Ultra Instinct can be handled by Jiren without much effort including Evolution Blue. So Vegeta's evolution boost in the end was a fruitless cause other then defeating a God of Destruction. It's still Vegeta's full power is even with Goku's maxmimum output of Kaioken. This helps keeps them interesting Characters in the future because of their rivalery.

      If you feel that way about the articles and have no faith in the community accepting this fact, then leave me alone about this issue. I no longer want to talk about it. This is everything i have to say. Goodbye.

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    • Breeie wrote: So how did Caufifa get so strong, enough so that she can stand up to BoG God Goku. 

      I have explained this twice now.

      U6 Saiyans evolved differently than U7 Saiyans. Cabba was equal to Base U6 Tournament Vegeta (without Saiyan Beyond God), and Caulifla is much stronger than Cabba, so that naturally puts her and Cabba's base in the high Buu Saga Tier (and maybe beyond), so this would put her SSJ2 form at BoG SSG Goku.

      And as for how she got so strong, Caulifla was stated to have unbelievable potential, and she was trained by Cabba (who was trained by Vegeta) and by Goku during their fight, plus her and Kale's power was increasing the entire time.

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    • ByAsura wrote: One which requires far more energy to maintain than all of his forms (sans MUI).

      You do realize that every time Goku went UI he was extremely tired and had had no stamina or energy left. UI doesn't need any energy to activate, it just happens when Goku is in great danger.

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    • @0551E

      All i was asking was your criteria, i wasn't asking about this, but you had to talk about it despite saying it was "wasting time", so you know what? i don't care, i'm responding no matter what you feel. If you don't want to talk about it, you don't respond.

      Just a little thing, it's not really a point; A series being inconsistent doesn't matter if this event isn't at all contradicted.

      Firstly, do not straw man me saying i have no faith in this argument just because i don't want to go around a wiki not meant for that and voice my opinion, which is probably not going to be worth it for a simple mention on one page.

      Secondly, so that is your criteria. Ok then, that's all i wanted to know.

      Third, Doesn't matter that it's impermanent, it's simple scaling that he's superior with the buff. 

      Fourth, Doesn't matter again, not doing anything against Jiren isn't what we're arguing here. 

      Lastly, Again, it's not what were arguing. No, his max boost isn't equal with the Kaioken Blue just because his cause was useless and due to their rivalry, that's not how it works. Vegeta SSBeyond Blue was in the same league of power to Kaioken, as the show threw at its viewers, Vegeta then powers up to much greater heights. 

      TL;DR: ​​​​It doesn't matter if the form isn't permanent, it doesn't matter that Vegeta didn't fufill his cause, it doesn't matter if Jiren is still stronger, the series might have inconsistencies, but this isn't contradicted or inconsistent. X20 was already comparable to SSBB Vegeta due to being comparable to Jiren, and then powered up a lot higher.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      ByAsura wrote: One which requires far more energy to maintain than all of his forms (sans MUI).

      You do realize that every time Goku went UI he was extremely tired and had had no stamina or energy left

      True. 

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    • ByAsura wrote:
      @0551E

      You are extremely passive agressive and jumping to accusations. All i was asking was your criteria, i wasn't asking about this, but you had to talk about it despite saying it was "wasting time", so you know what? i don't care, i'm responding no matter what you feel. If you don't want to talk about it, you don't respond.

      Just a little thing, it's not really a point; A series being inconsistent doesn't matter if this event isn't at all contradicted.

      Firstly, do not straw man me saying i have no faith in this argument just because i don't want to go around a wiki not meant for that and voice my opinion, which is probably not going to be worth it for a simple mention on one page.

      Secondly, so that is your criteria. Ok then, that's all i wanted to know.

      Third, Doesn't matter that it's impermanent, it's simple scaling that he's superior with the buff. 

      Fourth, Doesn't matter again, not doing anything against Jiren isn't what we're arguing here. 

      Lastly, Again, it's not what were arguing. No, his max boost isn't equal with the Kaioken Blue just because his cause was useless and due to their rivalry, that's not how it works. Vegeta SSBeyond Blue was in the same league of power to Kaioken, as the show threw at its viewers, Vegeta then powers up to much greater heights. 

      TL;DR: ​​​​It doesn't matter if the form isn't permanent, it doesn't matter that Vegeta didn't fufill his cause, it doesn't matter if Jiren is still stronger, the series might have inconsistencies, but this isn't contradicted or inconsistent. X20 was already comparable to SSBB Vegeta due to being comparable to Jiren, and then powered up a lot higher.

      I become extremly passive agressive because i have seen time and time again that all it takes for something to become real ugly, flame war like  and users to stop following the rules to become blocked from the wiki is just a little spark which post #21 did create. Since i believed it was a probable posibility, but then trying to cement the fact with the constant barging on me with the same "evidence" has only resulted in me cementing my oppisition to that statement.

      I can disupte the evidence that the fight can bring out as Vegeta being stronger then Goku, I can dispute Jiren's statement as being vauge and up to interpertation and i can dispute the fact that afterwards it was aknowledged that Vegeta became superior to Kaioken blue.

      There was one time where i wasn't passive aggressive but chosed the road that was outright, verbally aggressive with personal attacks as the result of being a spark for a flame war long ago, and this was the result that happened to me. I have experience with this.

      My wish is for something like that to NOT HAPPEN AGAIN to anyone and users can come and talk on the communities without that feeling of being agitated and being forced to defend their stance. I will shut down any chance of a flame war being created to stop users going too far. It's really easy, almost with an ecstasy level seduction, of overstepping the boundaries of what is acceptable to get in trouble due to Internet anonymity. 


      ​​​And the fact that you just continuly to brush off by saying "It doesn't matter" over and over again for almost every point is just becoming ad nauseam to me regarding this debate. if you are so caring as to just throw away everything else i say is evidence because you believe that it doesn't equate to what you say is the truth. Then equally i can do the same with your statements and what i believe is the truth because of how inconsistent things became later. You saw things one way, i saw another.

      Brushing away statements over and over again is a realy fine way of killing topic discussion and discouraging users to come back. I haven't changed my mind on this subject, your stances to me are on unstable foundation and thus disputatble. From my view, you have nothing new to add that can change my mind other then actually trying  to add it to the articles. So it will be going around in ciricles, so i have to go. You must understand.

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    • I actually deleted that part. It came off as confrontational, and i had a headache. Anyway, i apologise.

      I can also dispute your claims, which are mostly based on evidence not actually shown. It's not a vague claim, he outright says how he sees how Vegeta won after he caught his punch, that means it's his strength, especially since he did easily beat Toppo, and can't be something like potential because Jiren would have stated something like "you have a lot of potential, i can see how you beat Toppo".

      I'm not brushing away your claims because they i don't consider them evidence, it's because it has nothing to do with the debate, you are arguing things like "The Powerboost didn't technically amount to anything other than defeating Jiren" and "They're (Goku and Vegeta) rivals". These don't matter, they aren't evidence that actually contradict anything. Also, just because a series has inconsistencies, it doesn't mean every event can be classed as inconsistent. An inconsistency is something that's not the same, so far this has two things supporting it and nothing to contradict it.

      I am not just randomly killing topics, i'm killing points that don't actually matter. I understand, but i don't care if this goes in circles, your foundations are a lot shakier than mine due to being mostly headcanon.

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    • You gonna have to try harder then that.

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    • I'm just going to finish then, you are impossible to argue with.

      Sorry @Breeie for clogging your thread with useless stuff.

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    • Don't argue subjective disputued topics then. Adios. Thanks @NegativeSymptom for making it go in this direction. Don't ever do stuff like that again.

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    • You didn't win, 0551. Your opponent just realized it was futile to argue with someone in your emotional state.

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    • And I'm pretty sure your comment was the thing that started the argument, but whatever, I guess I'm to blame ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • This arguement was NegativeSymptom fault for happening in the first place because of what he did which was completely unrelated to the orignal post of this thread which didn't mention Vegeta's capabilities. It was about bog, goku and Caulifla.

      From my perspective, it became lost when the moment the opposition refused to honor my criteria to change my mind by PUTTING IT ON THE ARTICLES. But heyl you're still welcome to try it's clear right from the episode that Evolution vegeta is stronger then kaioken times 20 blue goku that it should be noted on the articles as it does gauge their powers. Then you should have no problem with the community accepting it.

      This is my stance. They didn't defeat me in this arguement they left. It's left with me unconivnced, so it's safe to say that it was a victory for me.

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    • But why do you have that criteria? Are consensuses not supposed to be reached before change is enacted?

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    • Because everyone here is saying this is the truth and very obvious. But when i look around on the Articles, there is no mention of comparing evolution blue as superior to Kaioken blue. On Toppo's article there is a mention of Anilza's power compared to Toppo's because of a similar action they did and it has clearer evidence so that was placed there.

      This is the main reason why i disagree talking like it's an established fact but is in reality nowhere said on This is different then doing power scaling debates between characters where that is more of an opinion then facts. Everyone is talking like it's clear evidence that Vegeta has eclispded Goku's kaioken but it's NOT on Vegeta's article and it makes me annoyed that something that has consensus aggreement on something as a fact and not an opinion as that's what these threads are really about.

      From my view, unless it's established on the articles, it's not a fact. You want me to accept, get the community to agree to have it on the Articles first. There's at least 4 of you here that seems to agree with this and yet no one of you will try and do as i ask. I've given you the key to open the door you just won't walk up to it (Metaphorically speaking)

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    • So because a fandom website doesn't say it then it absolutely cannot be true? Even when the show clearly shows it? What kind of logic is that?

      That's like saying because the show or manga its never said that SSJ is a x50 multiplier means that it can't be a x50 multiplier.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:
      So because a fandom website doesn't say SSBE > SSBKK then it can't be true? Even when the show ''clearly portrays Vegeta as superior?

      There you go again.

      It's an Encyclopedia that is meant to gather infomation from seeing stuff in the show as clear. But since you hypocritically believe that Vegeta's Vauge power comparison to Goku is undoubtly  evidently supported but won't add it to the articles. It's not accepted in my book.

      It's not convincing.

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    • OK. I will remember from now on that if a fan made website doesn't say it then it is absolutely not true and I shouldn't believe anyone or anything that tells me otherwise.

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    • Sure, blow it up to eleven why don't ya.

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    • No one won or lost in the argument 0551E, just because i didn't win, that doesn't mean you do. I gave up because there was no point in arguing since even if i did add the information to the pages, it'd probably be reverted, and because i couldn't end the argument if the information wasn't on the pages. 

      Negative may have started it, but then you perpetuated it, but so did others and myself. 

      A Wiki isn't the end all be all either, it's as accurate as it can be/tries to be.

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    • All i said in the beginning was "Probably, We'll never know' meaning that i was willing to be change my mind on it. 

      But then someone had to go and say

      NervousShipper wrote:

      Nah, you'll never know, since you can't watch a show and extrapolate information from it... or even accept the information that's clearly presented.

      Which in course just forever change it to what is now. and was clearly waiting for a snap back. and in turn just harden my stance. ^That was also a spark for a bigger flamewar.


      If everyone here feels contend that it is accurate enough to be Article content then just go ahead and try and put it there. It could be very convincing for the admins to leave it there. I implore you to try.

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    • Ok, so that's what you were talking about when you were talking about correcting before.

      You and all of us also perpetuated it, that might have been the start, but still.

      Again, i refuse to for reasons above.

      Anyway, it's 10:57 here in Adelaide, i need sleep.

      I would like to apologise again for being aggressive before.

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    • Rest up wikian.

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    • Sorry for being a dick.

      I added it to the page, we'll see if it stays, though I don't think that really matters. After all, someone changed Kale's forms to reflect Broly when Broly and his forms aren't canon to Kale and she thus doesn't have to follow his pattern, especially since she never has.

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    • They deleted the change. Surprise, surprise... though they did say it was likely.

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    • But still specualtion. So much for it being "obvious if you watched the battle."

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    • It being speculation is subjective. I used evidence from the show and inferred from there. The problem is that the people who maintain the wiki probably only use dialogue and interviews as evidence because they’re afraid of being wrong, regardless of how strong a person’s data is. That last part, that would be considered speculation. That’s the difference.

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    • ...

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    • So it's a loss then :(

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    • So how did Caulifla get so strong?

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    • Do you mean in the first place, or during the ToP?

      If it's in the first place, well she's a gang leader who has probably fought in various battles, plus she's evolved beyond U7 saiyans, and possibly has used her potential already.

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    • Breeie wrote: So how did Caulifla get so strong?

      I have explained this to you twice

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    • A FANDOM user
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