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  • Ultra Instinct -sign- i think would be 100x

    Complete UI would be 150-200x

    What do you think?

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    • Sign is stronger than Blue Kaioken so there is no way it is x100. Sign has a vastly superior multiplier than Blue's already insanely high multiplier. And MUI is vastly superior to Sign so..

      If sign was x100 then it would be as strong as SSJ2, which only accomplished slightly moving Jiren's neck.

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    • Sign: Infinity


      Mastered: Infinity ^ Infinity

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:
      Sign is stronger than Blue Kaioken so there is no way it is x100. Sign has a vastly superior multiplier than Blue's already insanely high multiplier. And MUI is vastly superior to Sign so..

      If sign was x100 then it would be as strong as SSJ2, which only accomplished slightly moving Jiren's neck.

      Ultra instinct is not just about power its about skill too.

      I changed my mind so i think sign would be 1000x.

      mastered would be 2000x.

      I know its weaker then Blue kaioken but theres skill involved.

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    • That would still be weaken than Blue and maybe even God, the multipliers for those forms are insane

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:
      That would still be weaken than Blue and maybe even God, the multipliers for those forms are insane

      super saiyan blue is stronger then god

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    • Yes I know. Which is why I said “maybe even god” because that’s a weaker multiplier. If it were stronger I wouldn’t say it, I would say “maybe even blue”

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    • You could maybe argue Sign doesn't have to be STRONGER thank Kaioken x10/x20 Blue per se to be as effective as it was, but Mastered Ultra Instinct is definitely the strongest form we've ever seen from a nonfused Saiyan. 



      Then again PLs are bull so we can give up on figuring out multipliers. Doubly so since we can't even figure out ones for SSG and SSB. 

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    • There's a reason for that: In order for multipliers to be a thing, power levels would have to still be a thing. They're not.

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    • It most definitely is stronger than Blue x20. MUI and Sign are stronger than any form we’ve seen period. Including fusions.

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    • Basically :

      KK = base x 2

      KKN = base x N

      SSJ = base x 50

      SSJ2 = SSJ x 2 = base x 100

      SSJ3 = SSJ2 x 4 = base x 400

      I think that :

      SSJG = SSJ x SSJ = base x 50 x 50 = base x 2 500

      SSJB = SSJG x SSJ = base x 2 500 x 50 = base x 125 000

      SUI = SSJB x SSJ = base x 125 000 x 50 = base x 6 250 000

      MUI = SSJB x SSJ2 = base x 125 000 x 100 = base x 12 500 000

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    • Firstly, that’s a huge necrobump. Secondly, multiplier for God and Blue is way too low

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    • Why is it low ? God is enough to make Goku jump to trillions with hundreds of million of base power. That's enormous.

      Blue is even more, he jumps to hundreds of trillions. I see Beerus be in the quadrillions, no more.

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    • That’s a lowball for most of DB community, some of them mainly put SSB Goku at around hundreds of quadrillion to quintillions, or even sextillions. And they put Goku base at around tens of trillions.

      Here are mine (opinion based):

      SSG = SS x SS2 x SS3 (base x 50 x 100 x 400) = base x 2,000,000

      SSB = SSG x SS = base x 100,000,000

      UI Omen = SSB Kaioken X100 = base x 10,000,000,000

      UI = UI Omen X 10 = base x 100,000,000,000

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    • Power levels aren't a thing anymore... although hey had them in the movie

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    • Power levels are a thing, they just aren't the same anymore. Hell in the Buu Saga they moved on to https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Kili which in some media is still being used. Power levels that can't be gauged aren't mentioned though, only multipliers and percentages seem to be mentioned now.

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    • You mean US Dragon Ball community

      If DBS mutipliers were that high, it would be ridiculously different from DB. I'll make a topic about multipliers and levels of fight logic.

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    • AsHiRaFu KAZAMA wrote: You mean US Dragon Ball community

      If DBS mutipliers were that high, it would be ridiculously different from DB. I'll make a topic about multipliers and levels of fight logic.

      Yes I meant us.

      Also, Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God. So are you implying that God Goku was only hundreds of millions of power levels?

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    • I would say that Gokuu with God Ki is 7x base Gokuu. So with SSJ, he's at 350x his base power, his base power being around 200 millions.

      BEERUS IS SUPPRESSING HIMSELF VERY MUCH AGAINST GOKUU.

      SSJG should be the SSJ of the SSJs, no ? So that's why SSJG is 2,500x.

      Next, SSJGSSJ is SSJ form of SSJG so it's 125,000x.

      We can say that, SUI is a SSJB in SSJ so 6 250 000x.

      MUI is like SSJ2 of SSJB so 12 500 000x

      I think that these multipliers are incredibly high compaired to SS3's 400x. 6 250 000x is just enormous, but acceptable !! I don't see other alternatives of my opinions, really. And DBS levels of fight aren't this high compaired to DB and DBZ. Even that there's a large level gap between them.

      I'm not convincing you that it's true, but that I have good ideas.

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    • Wouldn't sign Ultra Instinct be a 1,000,000,000,000x base and mastered Ultra Instinct be a 2,000,000,000,000,000x base

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    • That's just too much, I don't think that Zen'ou is stronger than that...

      Base Gokuu isn't 3 million anymore, he evolves, I think that he's around 200 million in Majin Buu Saga, then it becomes a bit difficult to say how powerful he's in his base form in Super.

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    • Here is Goku’s powerlevel at the Broly Movie (My opinion)

      Base Goku = 3,000,000,000,000,000

      SS Goku = 150,000,000,000,000,000

      SS God Goku = 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      SS Blue Goku = 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      SS Blue Kaioken Goku (Hypothetical) = 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      UI Omen Goku (Hypothetical) = 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      UI Goku (Hypothetical) = 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      Fusion Dance/Potara multiplier = A+B x 100,000,000

      Goku (as Gogeta) Base = 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      Goku (As Gogeta) SS = 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      Goku (As Gogeta) SS Blue (Against Broly FP) = 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      Goku (as Gogeta) SS Blue FP = 60,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      I apologise if I got some of my own multipliers wrong as the numbers are quite high! If you want to, you can share yours.

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    • Okay if you want me to share you my power levels here they are (I'll make a topic with justifications) :

      Multipliers :

      Great Ape = x10

      Kaiou-Ken = x2

      Kaiou-Ken Nx = xN

      God Ki = x7

      Super Saiyan = x50

      Super Saiyan God Ki = x350

      Super Saiyan 2 = x100

      Super Saiyan 2 God Ki = x700

      Super Saiyan 3 = x400

      Super Saiyan 3 God Ki = x2,800

      Super Saiyan God = x2,500

      Super Saiyan Blue = x125,000

      Super Saiyan Blue Kaiou-Ken = x250,000

      Super Saiyan Blue Kaiou-Ken Nx = x125,000 xN

      Super Saiyan Rage = x500

      Super Saiyan Rosé = x125,000

      Super Saiyan Blue Evolution = x2,500,000

      Signs of Ultra Instinct = x6,250,000

      Mastered Ultra Instinct = x12,500,000

      Legendary Super Saiyan = x2,400

      Fusions (between A and B) = AxB

      Battle Powers :

      Gokuu (Tournament of Power / Broly Sagas) = 600 million (600,000,000)

      (God Ki) = 4.2 billion (4,200,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan) = 30 billion (30,000,000,000)

      (God Ki Super Saiyan) = 210 billion (210,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan 2) = 60 billion (60,000,000,000)

      (God Ki Super Saiyan 2) = 420 billion (420,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan 3) = 240 billion (240,000,000,000)

      (God Ki Super Saiyan 3) = 1.68 trillion (1,680,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan God) = 1.5 trillion (1,500,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Blue) = 75 trillion (75,000,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Blue Kaiou-Ken x20) = 1.5 quadrillion (1,500,000,000,000,000)

      (Signs of Ultra Instinct) = 3.75 quadrillion (3,750,000,000,000,000)

      (Mastered Ultra Instinct) = 7.5 quadrillion (7,500,000,000,000,000)

      Vegeta (Tournament of Power / Broly Sagas) = 520 million (520,000,000)

      (God Ki) = 3.64 billion (3,640,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan) = 26 billion (26,000,000,000)

      (God Ki Super Saiyan) = 182 billion (182,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan 2) = 52 billion (52,000,000,000)

      (God Ki Super Saiyan 2) = 364 billion (364,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan God) = 1.3 trillion (1,300,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Blue) = 65 trillion (65,000,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Blue Evolved) = 1.3 quadrillion (1,300,000,000,000,000)

      Vegito (Zamasu Saga) = 2.1 billion (2,100,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Blue) = 262.5 trillion (262,500,000,000,000)

      Gogeta (Broly Saga) = 3.1 billion (3,100,000,000)

      (God Ki) = 21.7 billion (21,700,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan) = 155 billion (155,000,000,000)

      (God Ki Super Saiyan) = 1.085 trillion (1,085,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Blue) = 387.5 trillion (387,500,000,000,000)

      Freeza (Final form, Super Sagas) = 3.8 billion (3,800,000,000)

      (Golden Freeza) = 65 trillion (65,000,000,000,000)

      Hit = 1 quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000)

      Zamasu = 30 billion (30,000,000,000)

      Gokuu Black = 493 million (493,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan 2) = 49.3 billion (49,300,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan Rosé) = 61.625 trillion (61,625,000,000,000)

      Zamasu Fusion = 185 trillion (185,000,000,000,000)

      Jiren = 4 quadrillion (4,000,000,000,000,000)

      Broly = 600 billion (600,000,000,000)

      (Contained Great Ape) = 6 trillion (6,000,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan) = 30 trillion (30,000,000,000,000)

      (Super Saiyan (Full Power) aka Legendary aka Berserker) = 180 trillion (180,000,000,000,000)


      Hope it's not too long

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    • May I address that Gogeta and Vegito were confirmed equal, meaning that the multipliers for both Potara and Fusion Dance are equal?

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    • Yup, newest info says the fusions are equal, but the time limits are not.

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    • Oh really ?

      I corrected, but Gogeta (Broly) is stronger than Vegito (Zamasu)

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    • I’m going to change my UI Omen Multiplier along with UI.

      UI Omen = SSG x SSG ( 2,000,000 x 2,000,000 ) = 4,000,000,000,000

      UI = UI Omen x 100 = 400,000,000,000,000

      Goku (Broly Saga, UI Omen Hypothetical) = 12,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      Goku (Broly Saga, UI Hypothetical) = 1,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      I changed it because it seemed silly to me that Gogeta SSJ could go toe to toe against UI Omen Goku.

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    • I think that Goku MUI is way stronger than Gogeta Blue.

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    • Sorry for the necro again... Would just like to put my thoughts on SSG/SSB as well as UI after reading another post that made sense to me.

      SS1 (50x base)
      SS2 (100x base)
      SS3 (400x base)
      SSG (40,000x base) x
      SSB/R (2,000,000x base)
      SSBE (4,000,000x base) xx
      SSBKKx20 (40,000,000x base)

      x SSG math worked out here but this isn't official, it just makes sense: https://aminoapps.com/c/dragonballz/page/blog/does-super-saiyan-god-and-super-saiyan-blue-have-a-multiplier/J8LT_durgX7gkkwYQ0Y877pMNBGrqj8

      To quote the post I'm referring to:

      "The math behind it:

      1% of Beerus' power > 100% of SSJ3 - Goku's power.

      70% of Beerus' power > 100% of SSJG - Goku's power.

      70% / 100% = 0.7%.

      100% of SSJ3 - Goku's power = 0.7% of Beerus' power.

      This makes SSJG - Goku 100x stronger than SSJ3 - Goku was against Beerus.

      To figure out SSJG's multiplier you'd need to multiply how many times stronger Super Saiyan God - Goku is to Super Saiyan 3 - Goku, to the multiplier of Super Saiyan 3.

      400 x 100 = 40,000.

      Super Saiyan God's Multiplier: 40,000 × Base."


      xx SSBE: If we assume it's SSG going SS2, then it would double the multiplier of SSB. It's weird though. You'd think Goku would be ridiculously strong after using KK. This only makes sense if he's just plain weaker than Vegeta, or if SSBE is not an SS2 form of God Ki, which it likely isn't. I'm just guessing here it could be 5x SSB for all I know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      For these reasons I think UI and MUI are leaps and bounds beyond 6.25 or 12.5 million times base. It's definitely higher than SSBKKx20. Don't care how much it prioritizes skill, you don't go from having your strongest attacks be overpower to easily deflecting ki blasts and delivering your own blows with pure skill at 1/4 as strong as SSBKKx20.

      UI Omen is likely atleast 50% higher. Around the 60,000,000x range.

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    • Beerus lied the entire time about what percentage of power he was using, that much was made clear when in the U6 vs U7 Saga Whis said Goku and Vegeta were like trees standing next to a mountain when comparing their power to Beerus's and they already had SSB and fought Golden Freeza by then. So you can't rely on that

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    • Just UI Sign is leagues ahead of even SSBKKX20. I don’t believe any amount of skill enables you to damage an opponent previously far above you.

      My multipliers may be different from everyone’s, please note these are my opinion based on things stated in series but no direct confirmation.


      Average SS - 50xB

      Ascended SS - 150xB(the speculated 3xSS which makes sense given the power increase displayed by Vegeta)

      SS Grade 3 - 500xB(Said to be 10xSS by supplementary material)

      FPSS - 500xB(“can increase his power without the stress” seems like he gained access to amplify the form according to the situation and take it down to 0 to maintain)

      SS2 - 1000xB(2xFPSS)

      SS3 - 4000xB+PU(8xFPSS)

      SS4 - 40,000xB+PU(Baby was in his version of SS3 when he entered GGA and Goku was at least comparable)

      SSR - 1,000,000xB(SS3 was tapped by Beerus while SSR Goku could actually be punched in a fighting situation)

      SSB - 50,000,000xB(Goku said it’s a SSR gone SS so SSRx50)

      SSBKKx10 - 500,000,000xB(it’s KKx10...)

      SSBKKx20 - 1,000,000,000xB(He added the KaioKen... on top... x20)

      UIO - 10,000,000,000-100,000,000,000xB(estimate for different appearances of UIO)

      MUI - 10,000,000,000,000xB(fought flipping Jiren at full power and beyond... AND WON)

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    • ExiaTreason wrote:
      Sorry for the necro again... Would just like to put my thoughts on SSG/SSB as well as UI after reading another post that made sense to me.

      SS1 (50x base)
      SS2 (100x base)
      SS3 (400x base)
      SSG (40,000x base) x
      SSB/R (2,000,000x base)
      SSBE (4,000,000x base) xx
      SSBKKx20 (40,000,000x base)

      x SSG math worked out here but this isn't official, it just makes sense: https://aminoapps.com/c/dragonballz/page/blog/does-super-saiyan-god-and-super-saiyan-blue-have-a-multiplier/J8LT_durgX7gkkwYQ0Y877pMNBGrqj8

      To quote the post I'm referring to:

      "The math behind it:

      1% of Beerus' power > 100% of SSJ3 - Goku's power.

      70% of Beerus' power > 100% of SSJG - Goku's power.

      70% / 100% = 0.7%.

      100% of SSJ3 - Goku's power = 0.7% of Beerus' power.

      This makes SSJG - Goku 100x stronger than SSJ3 - Goku was against Beerus.

      To figure out SSJG's multiplier you'd need to multiply how many times stronger Super Saiyan God - Goku is to Super Saiyan 3 - Goku, to the multiplier of Super Saiyan 3.

      400 x 100 = 40,000.

      Super Saiyan God's Multiplier: 40,000 × Base."


      xx SSBE: If we assume it's SSG going SS2, then it would double the multiplier of SSB. It's weird though. You'd think Goku would be ridiculously strong after using KK. This only makes sense if he's just plain weaker than Vegeta, or if SSBE is not an SS2 form of God Ki, which it likely isn't. I'm just guessing here it could be 5x SSB for all I know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      For these reasons I think UI and MUI are leaps and bounds beyond 6.25 or 12.5 million times base. It's definitely higher than SSBKKx20. Don't care how much it prioritizes skill, you don't go from having your strongest attacks be overpower to easily deflecting ki blasts and delivering your own blows with pure skill at 1/4 as strong as SSBKKx20.

      UI Omen is likely atleast 50% higher. Around the 60,000,000x range.

      Don't mind the necro, I just like people putting out their thoughts!

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    • Alright guys based on my calculations Mastered Ultra Instinct is 120 times bigger than super sayain blue because super sayain blue is 1 million and times that by 120 you get a multiplier of 120 million.

      so Goku's current base power is 100 trillion and times that by 120 million it equals 12 septillion.

      Quote this if you guys think this helped 

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    • PowerLevelCalculator
      PowerLevelCalculator removed this reply because:
      its my quote
      21:59, October 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • making up numbers is not calculations.

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    • PowerLevelCalculator wrote:
      Alright guys based on my calculations Mastered Ultra Instinct is 600 times bigger than super sayain blue because super sayain blue is 1 million and times that by 600 you get a multiplier of 600 million.

      so Goku's current base power is 100 trillion and times that by 600 million it equals 12 septillion.

      Quote this if you guys think this helped 

      Please tell us how you came up with these numbers

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Beerus lied the entire time about what percentage of power he was using, that much was made clear when in the U6 vs U7 Saga Whis said Goku and Vegeta were like trees standing next to a mountain when comparing their power to Beerus's and they already had SSB and fought Golden Freeza by then. So you can't rely on that

      Yeah I think those numbers were based on the movie. But considering SS3 gets flicked and pushed on the shoulder for a total KO, where as SSG can actually take a punch from Beerus (70% or otherwise). I think SSG is leagues ahead of SS3. More so then what previous estimates were suggesting.

      In response to Chrome0X: I feel like G3 SS is a bit lower than that. Even when he was hitting Cell he wasn't annihilating him.

      Also not sure SS FP is any higher than SS Grade 1. Goku and Gohan were certainly stronger than they were when they only had grade 1 sure, but don't you think this has to do with base strength instead of the multiplier itself? Having no stamina flaws means you can actually output MORE power without really straining your body too much.

      I think God is way above SS3, making it look silly even. Those numbers seem way too high though.

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    • God is at the least 10x the power of SS3 if we are going by numbers that are not so blown up, according to Whis's given numbers full power of SSBlue is about 8-10x stronger than God.

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    • My numbers are based on what's said in the manga and certain statements. In the manga Vegeta says that "He learned to power up without weighing himself down" in my opinion this is to say he can use the strength of SSG3 as well as a speed increase all whenever he needs to. Keep in mind that the SSG3 is strictly in terms of raw strength, speed has infact decreased not only for movement but drastically in terms of striking speed as well. 

      SSFP does not take any stamina to maintain only when you're not fighting. It still requires Ki when fighting and to enter the form. Which is why they don't drop out before their battle with Cell and likewise why when they've completely bottomed out of Ki they can't maintain even SS, like in the Moro arc.


      I can see why you'd think it's high but a not even serious tap causing massive damage and dropping you out of the form is a severe gap. The fact that they surpassed initial SSRed form Goku's power in base but we're considered stumps shows the sheer amount of power increase that would be necessary to even hope to combat Beerus.(and lose, when he isn't even trying) After all it took Goku to gain 50x his strength to combat Frieza's full power but he wasn't doing to bad against him previously.

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    • Already has some errors in it. According to Toriyama SSGSS is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God added to it, not Super Saiyan God x50 as some fans like to imply.

      https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Super_Saiyan_Blue#Toriyama.27s_explanation

      Also Broly goes into Wrath State which is Great Apes power in human form which means Broly simply got 10x stronger, so him becoming only 10x stronger allowed him to gain an edge over SSGod Vegeta gain meaning that from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God is a 10x boost meaning that from base form to Super Saiyan God is 500x.

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    • Actually base Broly made Vegeta go SSG, skipping SSJ2. So base Broly > SSJ2 and SSG is 10x that since Broly wasn’t that much stronger than SSG Vegeta. So 1,000x base.

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    • We have no Guaranteed multipliers which is why this is a theory thread. There is no official multiplier for Wrath State not SSB, all we have is some information that we can speculate on.

      Some fans take the fact that SS is at least a 50x multiplier and that Goku said it’s a Super Saiyan Red gone Super Saiyan. While others take the manga instance where Whis said Vegeta couldn’t express more than 10% of his power to mean that SSB is 10xSuper Saiyan Red.

      Neither are incorrect but neither are correct, they are just opinions.

      The same goes for Wrath State, Oozaru is 10x base but that doesn’t mean Wrath State is. We can assume it is due to the correlation of the two forms but it is also not confirmed.

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    • I think people are starting to underestimate the true power of Super Saiyan God.

      From what we have seen before Goku transformed into God for the first time, he never was capable of destroying the universe, and yes, I know Buuhan was able to at his maxinum (as Vegito previously stated) but let's get real here, at the Namek Saga, Frieza at 3% of his power was able to surpass Goku's power. Cell easily beat Vegeta. So it's not crazy if Buuhan was able to beat Goku SS3 at like 1% of his power. Anyways, the universe is a very big place, it was stated that DB's universe was 3x bigger then the average.

      If Goku was able to destroy the universe once he became God with a couple of punches. Then it's not really that surprising if God is like 1,000 times stronger then SS3.

      In conclusion, God has to be a 1,000,000 to 10,000,000x multiplier, maybe even more. 

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    • No it doesn't, because the BOG stuff was scaled down like the very next saga with revealing Beerus lied the entire time. Only indicator we have of SSG's power that is current is that it is above SS3 and comparable to the difference between base Broly and Wrath State Broly, which is the same difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God and if we go by what is written in the DBS Premium book and what Paragus says then Wrath State is just Great Ape in human form.. Great Ape gives 10x current power. Meaning that SSGod is 10x stronger than SS and still stronger than SS3. We find out later that all those percentages and whatever were all made up BS by Beerus and he was never actually using as much power as he claimed to begin with as SSBlue Goku and Vegeta are revealed to be nothing compared to him period with Whis stating Beerus is like his castle while Goku and Vegeta are like one of the small trees around it in comparison.

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    • USSJ is over 500x base dude.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      No it doesn't, because the BOG stuff was scaled down like the very next saga with revealing Beerus lied the entire time. Only indicator we have of SSG's power that is current is that it is above SS3 and comparable to the difference between base Broly and Wrath State Broly, which is the same difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God and if we go by what is written in the DBS Premium book and what Paragus says then Wrath State is just Great Ape in human form.. Great Ape gives 10x current power. Meaning that SSGod is 10x stronger than SS and still stronger than SS3. We find out later that all those percentages and whatever were all made up BS by Beerus and he was never actually using as much power as he claimed to begin with as SSBlue Goku and Vegeta are revealed to be nothing compared to him period with Whis stating Beerus is like his castle while Goku and Vegeta are like one of the small trees around it in comparison.

      The anime BoG Goku is stronger then the one from the movie. God Goku Anime  is still able to destroy a universe with punches. I never mentioned Beerus either, besides, we do not know how strong the Wrath State actually is, with someone like Broly using this power, then Wrath State is much stronger then it is.

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    • There is chance that wrath state has a higher multiplier than great ape, but nothing hints to that or anything so for now it should be considered as 10x users current power

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    • Also newer information trumps older information so the whole "10x the previous form" thing has long been retconned by later information and with SS being 50x base and SS2 being twice that.. then SS2G can only be between the two and SS3G is supposed to be tied in power with SS2 but sucks compared to it everywhere else.

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    • To be frank SSR being only 10x SS3 doesn’t make sense. That small of a power increase(in relation to the humongous gap between SS3 and Beerus) wouldn’t be anywhere near enough for Goku to refer to the form as “in another realm” or “on a totally different level”. Not to mention the extreme jump in power he gains to combat foes who treat SS3 like child’s play.

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    • In addition to this we have that SS3 is 4xSS2, a new legendary form given its own legend would definitely not have a smaller boost in comparison to a previous form.

      If we examine the Buu Saga we see that SS2 is able to combat most foes it comes to blows with, such as Kid Buu. However when going SS3 the field is more or less even. This difference is far from the difference observed between SS3 and SSR meaning that a mere 10xSS is literally impossible.

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    • Not its not. The movie and the bog saga's power scale for SSG was downgraded in the following sagas and they used Beerus to show that with him having lied about everything power wise in the previous sagas. SSGod is def stronger than SS3 but people saying its more than 10x SS or SS3 just want some huge inflated numbers to use for it. don't forget that SS3 compared to SS2 was shown to be a world of difference in power every time it is used, even in Super Whis and Beerus were surprised at it. So SSG being 10x SS isn't far fetched considering SS3 is only 4 times SS2 yet they were shown to be in completely different worlds of power.

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    • It’s not about what Beerus said, it’s what we observed for ourselves. It’s not inflated numbers that are the goal, it is accuracy. SS2 Goku was competently combating Kid Buu and upon going SS3 there was no extreme change in their power dynamic.

      Now contrast that to Beerus merely touching SS3 Goku and completely ending the transformation and pushing Goku to the brink of death so much that he needed a Senzu bean, and the next transformation is only 10xSS while SS3 was already 8xSS? The facts just don’t add up here. SSR must be far more than that, it’s the only way to explain the power difference.

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    • I think its more likely to be 10x SS3 which would fit the scenarios just fine

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    • I must respectfully disagree for reasons above.

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    • SSG is clearly massively more powerful than SS3

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    • SSG Goku was able to destroy a universe, SS3 could not, therefore SSG wayyyyy more powerful then SS3

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    • it said 4 hits from beerus and ssg goku colliding should be enough to destroy the universe, that means SSG Goku would have to be 8 times stronger to destroy the universe since Beerus had to be colliding with the same level of power.

      SSG Goku didn't have that power on his own, Beeus was literally lowering his power so low that he could match Goku the entire time as we see later Beerus wasn't even using a smidgen of his real power according to himself and Whis. So 8x the power of SSG should be enough to destroy a universe.

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    • Well actually at the beginning of episode 13 the narrator states that the clash between SSR Goku's Kamehameha and Beerus' Cataclysmic Orb, was about to destroy the entire Universe. Instead their attacks merged together and formed a super dense energy ball which also had enough power to destroy entire Universe 7. Since this energy was in the Earth's stratosphere and Earth itself is located near the edge of the universe, the energy required for the ball to destroy the entire universe would be well beyond universe level. Placing Goku at least half of well beyond universe destructive capacity.

      And in addition at the end of the episode, the narrator again confirms that they were indeed hitting each other with the power capable of destroying the universe.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Well actually at the beginning of episode 13 the narrator states that the clash between SSR Goku's Kamehameha and Beerus' Cataclysmic Orb, was about to destroy the entire Universe. Instead their attacks merged together and formed a super dense energy ball which also had enough power to destroy entire Universe 7. Since this energy was in the Earth's stratosphere and Earth itself is located near the edge of the universe, the energy required for the ball to destroy the entire universe would be well beyond universe level. Placing Goku at least half of well beyond universe destructive capacity.

      And in addition at the end of the episode, the narrator again confirms that they were indeed hitting each other with the power capable of destroying the universe.

      It's SSJG.

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    • It’s also Super Saiyan Red, abbreviated as SSR.

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    • Except it's not Red. It's Magenta.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Except it's not Red. It's Magenta.

      Which is a shade of red. 

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    • It was called Super Saiyan Red twice now, so its fine to call it that. It does throw me off sometimes though

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    • FlatZone wrote: it said 4 hits from beerus and ssg goku colliding should be enough to destroy the universe, that means SSG Goku would have to be 8 times stronger to destroy the universe since Beerus had to be colliding with the same level of power.

      SSG Goku didn't have that power on his own, Beeus was literally lowering his power so low that he could match Goku the entire time as we see later Beerus wasn't even using a smidgen of his real power according to himself and Whis. So 8x the power of SSG should be enough to destroy a universe.

      It wouldn’t, Goku with SS3 wasn’t stated to destroy a universe at all, I don’t know where you got that “8 times stronger” logic. The universe is a really big place, and I doubt Goku in his SS3 state could destroy multiple galaxies.

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    • I wasn't talking about SS3

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Except it's not Red. It's Magenta.
      Which is a shade of red. 

      So is Pink. But do we view Pink as red? No. We don't. Magenta is a shade of pink.

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    • It has been displayed as both, most currently red. And it has been referred to as Super Saiyan Red. I’m not sure why this is even a conversation, there is only one red Super Saiyan so it’s pretty clear what we’re talking about.

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    • We call it super saiyan blue because super saiyan god super saiyan is too long. God and red have the same amount of letters and syllables so the only reason to call it Red is to be obtuse.

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    • So we going to have a debate about colours?

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    • NervousShipper wrote: We call it super saiyan blue because super saiyan god super saiyan is too long. God and red have the same amount of letters and syllables so the only reason to call it Red is to be obtuse.

      Or to have something called a preference, also called an opinion. To which I am entitled and will not change. Are we done with the name preference debate?

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:
      Firstly, that’s a huge necrobump. Secondly, multiplier for God and Blue is way too low

      I honestly think their too high.

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    • NervousShipper
      NervousShipper removed this reply because:
      I was wrong.
      19:35, December 17, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I don't think it's multiplier is higher than SSGSS KKX20 or SSGSS Evolved. I think it's on the same power scale as those, it just adds autonimous movement (Increased speed) into the mix which makes it harder to hit, and easier to get into opening, such as the ones that Jiren created. Remember, that Vegeta was able to get in a nd do damage to Jiren when he recognized his punch pattern and was able to avoid it. If I remember corectly, I believe the others on the sidelines believed that he had reached UI too. It's just autonimous movement and an unlok of all your potential in both mortal ki AND god ki. Consider it like a god ki form of potential unleashed. A base form where all of your limits are broken and you stop thinking and start moving.

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    • Vegito base form is a good amount stronger than SS3. Vegito is capable of SS3. Beerus was acknowledged to be to much for even Vegito to handle(or Gogeta they are equal power). SSR Goku competently combated Beerus so Super Saiyan Red is more than 800x stronger than SS3 Goku in Z. Meaning SSR is far stronger 640,000xBase.

      Judging the fact that Goku knew Vegito would lose by a landslide against Beerus and was extraordinarily surprised by the power of SSR. SSR is at least 800,000xbase

      Now take that and add a heck of a lot more to it and you get MUI.

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    • Yes, but Vegito and Gogeta are only ever shown using SS and SSGSS and to use more than that would be speculative. Also Goku had no idea what kind of power SSGod would bring, and Beerus lied the entire time. As we later find out going by the performances of Vegito and Gogeta in DBSuper that even a SS fusion is stronger than the SSGod form yet again proving Goku wrong, and Beerus as a liar. SSGod is weaker than a SS Fusion.

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    • Said fusion being stronger in just SS is using base form Goku and Vegeta who are FAR stronger in base than Goku at the beginning of Super, so that would be an incorrect to say Goku was wrong. Vegito can for sure do SS2 because both Vegeta and Goku can use the form, the question would be would he have a Enhanced SS2 or SS3. Either way he obtains the same relative multiplier and Goku would not be talking about a SS Vegito rather a max power Vegito, whatever that may be.

      Goku indeed had no clue about the true power of SSR but Beerus wouldn’t have waisted his time if the form wasn’t exponentially more powerful. Also given the same base power the multiplier received from a fused being in base is stronger than a SSB as seen by Gogeta combating SS Broly competently in base without any show of pressure.

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    • SSJ= 50X

      SSJ 2nd Grade=75X (Super Saiyan 1.5)

      SSJ 3rd Grade= 100 (Redued speed)

      Mastered Super Saiyan=50X (Plus Ki conservation)

      SSJ2= 100X (Increased Speed and Ki output)

      SSJ3= 400X

      Vegeto/Gogeta= Goku + Vegeta X Tens of times (20=90 dependng on how compadible you are)

      SSJ4= 320,000X (Derived by Baby Vegeta becoming 80X stronger than he was when he smoked SSJ3 Goku, then the form was absorbed allowing Goku to do damage to Super 17 in SSJ1 who was stronger than Baby)

      SSG=SSJ3 X 10 (4,000 god ki absorbtion multiplier which makes it's second transfromation 320,000X

      SSB=SSG god ki absorbed X50= 16,000,000X

      SSB Kaioken (2-20= 32,000,000X - 320,000,000X)

      SSBE=320,000,000X (Equal to SSB Kaioken X20)

      UI Omen= Near Complete god ki Potential Unlocked + incomplete Autonimous movement

      MUI= 100% Complete god ki Potential Unlocked + complete Autonimous movement

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    • By second transformtion in regards to SSG, I mean the second time that you transform into SSG. SSJ1 then becomes as strong as SSG, then we multiply SSJ's new multiplier to 80X SSG which makes SSG's multiplyer 320,000X

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    • Nope, Goku and Vegeta both used SSG in the movie and neither of them could beat or last against Wrath State Broly alone, yet base Gogeta seems like he would have faired better and SS Gogeta had an edge over SS Broly. SSG form is weaker than SS Fusions and that is undeniable proof 100%.

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    • Two SSB couldn’t even fight Broly. Base Gogeta showed no form of pressure from Broly. SSR doesn’t even come close to standing a chance.

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    • 1 SSB = Broly (Ikari)

      Broly X50 (SSJ and Ikari)

      2 SSB X (say 90 since Goku and Vegeta work well togther)

      Vados: They are more than the sum of their part and their power increases by tens of times.

      SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta X 90. Gogeta is 180X stronger than Goku SSB alone.

      this makes SSGSS Gogeta about 130X stronger than Broly.

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    • The fusion multiplier is high, by that I mean that it must be stronger then Super Saiyan Blue but would be weaker then Blue Kaioken x3

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    • What makes you think SSBKKx3 is definitely stronger?? I mean that makes sense but still

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    • This further confirms that SS4 is astronomically more powerful than what people thought, as it is directly compared to the power that SS Fusion brings with the SS Fusion only being questioned as maybe being stronger since they consider fusion as a form.. meaning SSGod is still weaker than the base power of a fusion, SS4 is compared to the power that SS Fusion brings and SSGSS should be about that too since Goku going from SSG to SSGSS made Caulifla go SS although she was actually holding back the entire time.. so in the anime(SS4 is anime only anyway lol) SS4 and SSGSS are both stronger than SSGod and are about the same power, quite literally.

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    • Yes, SS4 is amazing... in heroes.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Yes, SS4 is amazing... in heroes.

      Yep, and Gogeta Blue is really strong against Hearts but Blue Kaioken Vegito struggled against Cumber

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    • FlatZone wrote: What makes you think SSBKKx3 is definitely stronger?? I mean that makes sense but still

      Beacause Blue Goku was on par with Wrath State Broly and if he went Blue Kaioken x2 he would of been giving Broly a beating and if Base Gogeta was fighting Broly Wrath State he would of won considering that Base Gogeta was dodging Brolys attacks without any pressure, Broly didn’t strengthen the power of his ki blasts since he can’t control his energy and he if he threw ki blasts at Goku or Vegeta it would of been the same strength when he threw them at the fusion. So in my opinion Base Gogeta should be equal to Goku Blue Kaioken x2

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    • @Nervous you do understand SS4 is only in Heroes and GT right? It's anime only and thats the only medium it shares with SSGSS. Your point actually is not a point.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      This further confirms that SS4 is astronomically more powerful than what people thought, as it is directly compared to the power that SS Fusion brings with the SS Fusion only being questioned as maybe being stronger since they consider fusion as a form.. meaning SSGod is still weaker than the base power of a fusion, SS4 is compared to the power that SS Fusion brings and SSGSS should be about that too since Goku going from SSG to SSGSS made Caulifla go SS although she was actually holding back the entire time.. so in the anime(SS4 is anime only anyway lol) SS4 and SSGSS are both stronger than SSGod and are about the same power, quite literally.

      I've been saying this for a while. Most people, myself included for a time there, believed that SSJ4 was only 10X SSJ3, but we were wrong. Using math and formulas, I have determined that (While SSJ3 is a 400X multiplier) SSJ4's multiplier is actually 32,000X before absorbing the form. After absorbing the form, Goku got 10X stronger in all forms making SSJ4's TRUE Multiplier 320,000X. My proof is in how Baby Vegeta before transforming twice skuncked SSJ3 Goku, then Baby got 80X Stronger than that. If Super Baby 2 is the equivelent of SSJ3 as the GT Perfect Files said, then Baby Vegeta's frst form (The form before Super Baby 1) Should be qeuivelent to Super Saiyan. SSJ3 is 8X stroger than SSJ1 and adding Great ape onto SSJ3 would mean that Golden Great Ape Baby is 80X stronger than he was when Goku fought him before, therefore SSJ4 must at least make Goku 80X stronger. Then, When faced against Super 17, Goku could keep up in SSJ1 when Majub (who went toe to toe well against Super Baby 2) got skunked beside Vegeta, Goten and Gohan. Goku would have had t have become at least 10X stronger to do that. People say "Oh, well, Goku just trained." Nope, Goku and the others were celebrating the return of Earth when Super 17 attacked. That meant that they were on the Tuffle Planet the entire time, and Goku would have had to watch over the people. There would have been no time to train, and even if Goku could, it would have only taken maybe a couple days to get the Namekian Dragon Balls to wish Earth back and go home. 




      To make it short if it was too long. SSJ4 has a multiplier of 320,000X

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    • I didn't think about that, Goku did indeed have to have gotten around 10x stronger to fight S17 with just his SS form..

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    • He would have had to have absorbed SSJ4's power in a similar way to how Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan god. I say this because he can now transform into a SSJ4 or an Oozaru at will. There is no need for a full moon or even the ability to see one. He just transforms.

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    • SDBHeroes series has some of the people involved with GT and SS4 working on it, they imply that any SS4 user can re-enter the form after attaining it. Gohan GT attains it somehow while training out in the wild. Gohan Xeno, Vegeta GT, Vegeta Xeno, Bardock, Bardock Xeno, Broly, and Broly Dark can all enter and exit the form at Will. So I think if anything the users base form seems to get the 10x boost from the normal Oozaru power

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    • Heroes would be the perfect opportunity to have a SSj4 and a SSGSS  fuse and it's really disappointing that it hasn't happened yet.

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    • With Gohan Xeno getting SS4 and Future Trunks Xeno now having the means to get SSGSS. I think the fusion will happen eventually.

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    • That would be awesome. Super Saiyan blue is just Super Saiyan god and The regular Super Saiyan form. It is not out of the realm of possibilty that one (with a strong enough body) could use a higher form of Super Saiyan with the Super ASaiyan god form. This makes SSGSS2 and 3 and even 4 if you're strong enough. This was proven with Super Saiyan Blue evloved which is achieved in similar form as Super Saiyan 2nd Grade. That has me excited with the future of Dragon Ball Super!

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      That would be awesome. Super Saiyan blue is just Super Saiyan god and The regular Super Saiyan form. It is not out of the realm of possibilty that one (with a strong enough body) could use a higher form of Super Saiyan with the Super ASaiyan god form. This makes SSGSS2 and 3 and even 4 if you're strong enough. This was proven with Super Saiyan Blue evloved which is achieved in similar form as Super Saiyan 2nd Grade. That has me excited with the future of Dragon Ball Super!

      a combined form of Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan 4 would be more powerful indeed, i would named it a super saiyan god super saiyan 4 or super saiyan blue 4 haha

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    • SSGSS4 would be the strongest form yet, not even UI would match up to it in power.

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    • I just hope the fur doens't turn blue. I don't think it needs to and SS4 has never had the same color for fur and hair

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    • That's true, but if not blue, then what? I thought that the fur could turn blue, but the hair remain black. But I would be open to another color too. What do you think it would be?



      ...have you guys seen SSJ5?



      ...heh heh heh.

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    • I have no idea what it might look like.

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    • I only know it would have fur, a tail, and the hair would have the general look of the SS4 hair.

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    • I'd give it Black fur and dark purple hair. (red and gold make blue, I don't see why Blue and Black wouldn't make purple)

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    • I see it as the dark hair just being the users normal hair color, so then if they gained SSGSS4 than their hair would turn red because of the God Ki

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      I see it as the dark hair just being the users normal hair color, so then if they gained SSGSS4 than their hair would turn red because of the God Ki

      Not sure. It would make sense. But Gogeta has a different hair color from his base when in SS4.

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    • Nothiing about Gogeta makes sense, he has black eyelines and red hair when it should be the opposite

      While Vegito who also has normals colors in base form, has the normal SS4 color scheme. I think the animators were just on some powerful shit when they designed SS4 Gogeta

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    • I think it would be cool to see. A greater form of Super Saiyan Blue would be perfect to help Vegeta keep up with Ultra Instinct. Vegeta may not be able to achieve that form, but he needs a way to keep the rivalry going. If Vegeta doesn't stay in the rivalry, then the show would get pretty boring...

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      I think it would be cool to see. A greater form of Super Saiyan Blue would be perfect to help Vegeta keep up with Ultra Instinct. Vegeta may not be able to achieve that form, but he needs a way to keep the rivalry going. If Vegeta doesn't stay in the rivalry, then the show would get pretty boring...

      Goku isn't supposed to be able to get to UI on a whim, but Vegeta is supposed to be able to get to SSBE, isn't he? So Vegeta is above right now.

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    • All things considering, SSBE is on the same level as SSB Kaioken X20. Goku and Vegeta are even right now, but should Vegeta ever get lucky enough to learn the Kaioken technique, Vegeta would overtake Goku, Jiren AND Broly. Perhaps all at once!

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    • SSBE Version 1 is as powerful as KKx20. But then we saw vegea get even more powerful while fighting Toppo.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote: All things considering, SSBE is on the same level as SSB Kaioken X20. Goku and Vegeta are even right now, but should Vegeta ever get lucky enough to learn the Kaioken technique, Vegeta would overtake Goku, Jiren AND Broly. Perhaps all at once!

      There’s no evidence that you can stack kaioken on top of SSBE

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    • Also, it was Vegeta himself who got stronger and beat GoD Top, the SSBE form didn't get stronger.

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    • Vegeta got stronger within the form, and it was a form based partially on going beyond one’s limits, just like UI, so what’s the difference?

      There’s no evidence that you can’t stack Kaioken on top of SSBE.

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    • well let's hope vegeta got something bigger in the future

      and the other Z-Fighter need a moment too

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    • Well, SSBE appears to me to be more like Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan Grade 2. It looks very much like Super Vegeta. It makes me think that the next level for Vegeta would be Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan 3rd Grade. If Super Saiyan can be added to Super Saiyan god, it's not out of the realm of possibility that one could add higher forms of Super Saiyan to it, such as Super Saiyan 2 and even Super Saiyan 3. Then we would finally get to see vegeta use a form of Super Saiyan 3 in canon material.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Nothiing about Gogeta makes sense, he has black eyelines and red hair when it should be the opposite

      While Vegito who also has normals colors in base form, has the normal SS4 color scheme. I think the animators were just on some powerful shit when they designed SS4 Gogeta

      Easy on the language there.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, SSBE appears to me to be more like Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan Grade 2. It looks very much like Super Vegeta. It makes me think that the next level for Vegeta would be Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan 3rd Grade. If Super Saiyan can be added to Super Saiyan god, it's not out of the realm of possibility that one could add higher forms of Super Saiyan to it, such as Super Saiyan 2 and even Super Saiyan 3. Then we would finally get to see vegeta use a form of Super Saiyan 3 in canon material.

      They've all determined that Grades 2 and 3 were all around bad forms. It's unlikely that this is what SSBE is. It's more likely to be SSB2 already. But the power increase is so incredibly high that I doubt this as well. I'd say it's a fresh new form.

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    • Rogeta, if a Mod isn't saying anything then you shouldn't either. You're back and you're ALREADY attempting to stir up trouble, not a good look.

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    • I really don't know. It seems like a form of Super Vegeta, only in blue. I say this because of the powerstressing nature it has to it. The increased muscle mass is one of the reasons why I say this. Super Vegeta was not a BAD form, it just guzzled ki too fast. It seems likely to me that SSBE would also guzzle ki. I am adamant that SSBE is the mixture of Super Saiyan god and Super Saiyan 2nd Grade. But one problem I have is this. If it were, and we were to take the words Super Saiyan 1.5 at face value, then it would be a 75X multiplier instead of 50X. That would make it 25 Base form times stronger than SSJ, however, SSGSS Kaioken X 20 is equal to SSBE. Does this mean that The Kaioken is added to the multiplier and does not multiply it? Or does it mean that SSBE is now using multiplication with it's SSJ 2nd Grade? Perhaps Toriyama really has simply left all numbers behind... I can't seem to wrap my head around it. I suppose that when we start asking for multipliers, it takes the fun out of the story telling. In truth, I've come to believe that UI and MUI have a multiplier of 0X. It's just the full potential of Goku's god-ki and automatic movement. It's like Gohan's potential unleashed. It's not a form per se, but an awakening. We know that UI is not a Saiyan exclusive form (Whether hair color changes in other races is up for debate) Gohan's mystic, and Goku's Ultra Instinct have no multiplier, they just release all of their latent potential at once which may make the "Multiplier" stronger or weaker than other forms depending on how much potential that you have.

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    • Considering that in literally every single other example of a form having a massive change in colors, I still maintain against all evidence that SSj4 Gogeta is actually SSj5, and I use the fact that SSj4 Vegito having the traditional color scheme as proof.

      Edit: I also add into evidence that only dance fusions have gotten new forms after fusing

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    • It may be what SS5 would look like in the series considering that Bulma even talks about SS5 albeit jokingly, though I think here they just went for a visual teaser. Notice how Goku's hair has the red tinge at Ultra full power saiyan 4?? That red tinge is the same color as Gogeta's hair. Maybe Gogeta is just using the TRUE full power of Super Saiyan 4 which is almost like a new form with how strong it is.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      I really don't know. It seems like a form of Super Vegeta, only in blue. I say this because of the powerstressing nature it has to it. The increased muscle mass is one of the reasons why I say this. Super Vegeta was not a BAD form, it just guzzled ki too fast. It seems likely to me that SSBE would also guzzle ki. I am adamant that SSBE is the mixture of Super Saiyan god and Super Saiyan 2nd Grade. But one problem I have is this. If it were, and we were to take the words Super Saiyan 1.5 at face value, then it would be a 75X multiplier instead of 50X. That would make it 25 Base form times stronger than SSJ, however, SSGSS Kaioken X 20 is equal to SSBE. Does this mean that The Kaioken is added to the multiplier and does not multiply it? Or does it mean that SSBE is now using multiplication with it's SSJ 2nd Grade? Perhaps Toriyama really has simply left all numbers behind... I can't seem to wrap my head around it. I suppose that when we start asking for multipliers, it takes the fun out of the story telling. In truth, I've come to believe that UI and MUI have a multiplier of 0X. It's just the full potential of Goku's god-ki and automatic movement. It's like Gohan's potential unleashed. It's not a form per se, but an awakening. We know that UI is not a Saiyan exclusive form (Whether hair color changes in other races is up for debate) Gohan's mystic, and Goku's Ultra Instinct have no multiplier, they just release all of their latent potential at once which may make the "Multiplier" stronger or weaker than other forms depending on how much potential that you have.

      Regarding the "numbers and multipliers" I believe all of this is just head canon at this point and shouldn't be taken too seriously. I say that after being guilty of posting multipliers lol.

      That being said. I think SSBE looking like Grade 2 was just them paying homage to Super Vegeta. It does like identical aside from his eyes and color. But Goku did state in the Time Chamber that the form was innefficient. Even Vegeta no longer used Grade 2 after Cell games. He goes from SS1 straight to 2 when fighting Goku. I'm guessing his SS1 is in the Grade 4 state at this point. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read the manga, but isn't Vegeta's SSBE anime exclusive. His kind of does this in the manga but he doesn't have the beefed up look to him right?

      In all honesty I think that SSB is already using SS2 with god ki. The form was superior to SS1 in every way that it just makes sense. SSB also has a stamina drain, so SS3 would be an astronomically terrible decision. For these reasons I think they're already using SS2 with their blue forms.

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    • SSBE is in the manga, it is named differently and if you look at the cover of ToP you can see him with his dark blue hair.

      Goku explained to Frieza that he was only using Super Saiyan on top of God, he never mentioned SS2 and if he was using SS2 with god ki his hair would of been different. 

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    • Well, the thing is, SSBE is at the same level as SSB Kaioken X20, which means one of two things...

      First: Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is 20X (at least) Super Saiyan Blue.

      Or...

      Second: Kaioken does not multiply SSB, but instead adds to it. Such as instead of it being Super Saiyan god X 50 X20 (which would be 1000X Super Saiyan god) it could instead be Super Saiyan god X 50 + 20 (which would make the multiplier Super Saiyan god X70) I don't know where exactly, but I heard that multipliers don't stack, but instead become a part of the whole through adding instead of multiplication. I don't know if I believe it yet, but it's an idea floating around.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Rogeta, if a Mod isn't saying anything then you shouldn't either. You're back and you're ALREADY attempting to stir up trouble, not a good look.

      I'm just trying to make sure to keep your potty mouth under control. Last I checked, a mod did give you a stern warning regarding your language. So I'd stick to it and be a good little boy.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      Rogeta, if a Mod isn't saying anything then you shouldn't either. You're back and you're ALREADY attempting to stir up trouble, not a good look.
      I'm just trying to make sure to keep your potty mouth under control. Last I checked, a mod did give you a stern warning regarding your language. So I'd stick to it and be a good little boy.

      Why do you care? You don't need to be a member of a militia working for the police.

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    • He is just attempting to IMMEDIATELY start an issue with me again, and do that with childish insults, as usual.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      Nothiing about Gogeta makes sense, he has black eyelines and red hair when it should be the opposite

      While Vegito who also has normals colors in base form, has the normal SS4 color scheme. I think the animators were just on some powerful shit when they designed SS4 Gogeta

      Easy on the language there.

      I am actually a mod. I must inform you of a couple things though. A mod does not have power on these Forum/Threads. It is admins that have power over these pages. The rules on profanity are in the guidelines. As such, it is not exactly against the rules to say the word "Sh*t" the only time it can be punished is if it is used in a way that would be a sort of personal attack on someone else. Profanity that is acceptable are "A*s" "D*nm" and "Sh*t" all other curses are against the rules, and no curse is allowed if used to harass another user. FlatZone is within his rights as it stands.

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    • He just got back from his month ban, and he calls me a little boy and demeans me

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, the thing is, SSBE is at the same level as SSB Kaioken X20, which means one of two things...

      First: Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is 20X (at least) Super Saiyan Blue.

      Or...

      Second: Kaioken does not multiply SSB, but instead adds to it. Such as instead of it being Super Saiyan god X 50 X20 (which would be 1000X Super Saiyan god) it could instead be Super Saiyan god X 50 + 20 (which would make the multiplier Super Saiyan god X70) I don't know where exactly, but I heard that multipliers don't stack, but instead become a part of the whole through adding instead of multiplication. I don't know if I believe it yet, but it's an idea floating around.

      Kaioken has been stated to multiply everything used in combat, if it added to SSB then it would be useless as you sacrifice your body to a small power boost. 

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Rogeta234 wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      Nothiing about Gogeta makes sense, he has black eyelines and red hair when it should be the opposite

      While Vegito who also has normals colors in base form, has the normal SS4 color scheme. I think the animators were just on some powerful shit when they designed SS4 Gogeta

      Easy on the language there.
      I am actually a mod. I must inform you of a couple things though. A mod does not have power on these Forum/Threads. It is admins that have power over these pages. The rules on profanity are in the guidelines. As such, it is not exactly against the rules to say the word "Sh*t" the only time it can be punished is if it is used in a way that would be a sort of personal attack on someone else. Profanity that is acceptable are "A*s" "D*nm" and "Sh*t" all other curses are against the rules, and no curse is allowed if used to harass another user. FlatZone is within his rights as it stands.

      Okay, hypocrite. It's just that not all wikis allow that sort of thing. That type of language is what got him banned from a wiki and he needs to avoid that same mistake. Just don't go soft on him.

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    • What got you banned Rogeta? Are you still doing that? It's also not hypocriticial. Different wikis have different rules. Also Flat, there's no need to engage with him.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      What got you banned Rogeta? Are you still doing that? It's also not hypocriticial. Different wikis have different rules. Also Flat, there's no need to engage with him.

      FlatZone attacked me and I was wrongly banned for a month. 

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    • Judging from how you’re acting now, I don’t believe you. Sorry.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Rogeta234 wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      Nothiing about Gogeta makes sense, he has black eyelines and red hair when it should be the opposite

      While Vegito who also has normals colors in base form, has the normal SS4 color scheme. I think the animators were just on some powerful shit when they designed SS4 Gogeta

      Easy on the language there.
      I am actually a mod. I must inform you of a couple things though. A mod does not have power on these Forum/Threads. It is admins that have power over these pages. The rules on profanity are in the guidelines. As such, it is not exactly against the rules to say the word "Sh*t" the only time it can be punished is if it is used in a way that would be a sort of personal attack on someone else. Profanity that is acceptable are "A*s" "D*nm" and "Sh*t" all other curses are against the rules, and no curse is allowed if used to harass another user. FlatZone is within his rights as it stands.
      Okay, hypocrite. It's just that not all wikis allow that sort of thing. That type of language is what got him banned from a wiki and he needs to avoid that same mistake. Just don't go soft on him.

      All wikis have different rules and reserve the right to delet comments or ban the offending user. So far as I can tell, he has not broken any rules, none thet you yourself haven't broken also "Insults." I understand that you may not agree with his use of language, but he has not broken the rules yet and therefore we can do nothing. If you have any further problems with a user or the rules of this wiki, please contact an Admin.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Judging from how you’re acting now, I don’t believe you. Sorry.

      Well, it's the truth.

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    • @Nervous trust me when I tell you, he has some sort of issue with me and he takes every chance he gets to verbally assault or belittle me. He has said plenty other things in the past which honestly he should be banned by now but the moderators were feeling generous and gave him a month long ban instead.

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    • Not too sure how all this works. But is there a way this convo can be cleaned up? Too much nonsense just for 1 guy's kicks and giggles...

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    • ExiaTreason wrote:
      Not too sure how all this works. But is there a way this convo can be cleaned up? Too much nonsense just for 1 guy's kicks and giggles...

      You could contact an Admin. They could resolve the problem and perhaps clean it up.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      ExiaTreason wrote:
      Not too sure how all this works. But is there a way this convo can be cleaned up? Too much nonsense just for 1 guy's kicks and giggles...
      You could contact an Admin. They could resolve the problem and perhaps clean it up.

      Already taken care of that.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:

      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      ExiaTreason wrote:
      Not too sure how all this works. But is there a way this convo can be cleaned up? Too much nonsense just for 1 guy's kicks and giggles...
      You could contact an Admin. They could resolve the problem and perhaps clean it up.

      Already taken care of that.

      Why would help an admin see that you've insulted another user multiple times right after being unbanned?

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    • Now, let us continue the conversation. If I remember correctly, we were at this point below me.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:
      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, the thing is, SSBE is at the same level as SSB Kaioken X20, which means one of two things...

      First: Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is 20X (at least) Super Saiyan Blue.

      Or...

      Second: Kaioken does not multiply SSB, but instead adds to it. Such as instead of it being Super Saiyan god X 50 X20 (which would be 1000X Super Saiyan god) it could instead be Super Saiyan god X 50 + 20 (which would make the multiplier Super Saiyan god X70) I don't know where exactly, but I heard that multipliers don't stack, but instead become a part of the whole through adding instead of multiplication. I don't know if I believe it yet, but it's an idea floating around.

      Kaioken has been stated to multiply everything used in combat, if it added to SSB then it would be useless as you sacrifice your body to a small power boost. 

      SSBE is 20X SSGSS. It shows that it may be a new form, but similar to another. However, I have one thing to say. I've recently been wathing the Cell Saga where Super Saiyan 2nd and 3rd Grade first appeared. Goku, when Vegeta exit's the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku tells Vegeta that he woud be crazy to attack Cell now that he's in his semi-perfect form. He says "You would have to be at least 3 times stronger to even stand a chance." I think that the Super Saiyan 2nd Grade is stronger than we think. Does the guide actually say that Super Saiyan 2 is 100X? Or does it say that it's 2X SSJ1?

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    • He was saying Vegeta would have had to have gotten 3 times stronger than he was BEFORE he entered the time chamber to able to beat Semi-Perfect Cell. Combined with SS2G he was more than 3x stronger compared to his power pre-time chamber. The power that SS2G brings is below SS3G and SS2.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      MonzyMonz wrote:
      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, the thing is, SSBE is at the same level as SSB Kaioken X20, which means one of two things...

      First: Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is 20X (at least) Super Saiyan Blue.

      Or...

      Second: Kaioken does not multiply SSB, but instead adds to it. Such as instead of it being Super Saiyan god X 50 X20 (which would be 1000X Super Saiyan god) it could instead be Super Saiyan god X 50 + 20 (which would make the multiplier Super Saiyan god X70) I don't know where exactly, but I heard that multipliers don't stack, but instead become a part of the whole through adding instead of multiplication. I don't know if I believe it yet, but it's an idea floating around.

      Kaioken has been stated to multiply everything used in combat, if it added to SSB then it would be useless as you sacrifice your body to a small power boost. 
      SSBE is 20X SSGSS. It shows that it may be a new form, but similar to another. However, I have one thing to say. I've recently been wathing the Cell Saga where Super Saiyan 2nd and 3rd Grade first appeared. Goku, when Vegeta exit's the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku tells Vegeta that he woud be crazy to attack Cell now that he's in his semi-perfect form. He says "You would have to be at least 3 times stronger to even stand a chance." I think that the Super Saiyan 2nd Grade is stronger than we think. Does the guide actually say that Super Saiyan 2 is 100X? Or does it say that it's 2X SSJ1?

      It says that it's 2x SS1. It's a bit complicated though, because Grade 4 is basically Grade 2 or 3 without the stamina drawbacks. So it'd be more accurate to say that it's 2x mastered SS1 (Grade 4).

      SS2 is also known as grade 5.

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    • I've been thinking about Legendary Super Saiyan (or better known as Full Power Super Saiyan) and I wonder if it is an undiscovered grade. Super Saiyan 3rd grade shares many of it's aspects. They both are discribed as being as strong physically as Super Saiyan 2, both have increased muscle mass, etc. The only difference is that SSJ 3rd Grade is slow, and LSSJ is fast. The hair color is different too. Go here and see what I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHAMYdaERIA

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    • Full Power Super Saiyan is a stupid name. Can we please stick with LSSj?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Full Power Super Saiyan is a stupid name. Can we please stick with LSSj?

      I agree. Besides, we have another form that has that name.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Full Power Super Saiyan is a stupid name. Can we please stick with LSSj?
      I agree. Besides, we have another form that has that name.

      Plus "Full Power" implies that there isn't really anything unique to the form and that every Saiyan (especially Goku) should have the form by now.

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    • I still don’t understand why LSSJ is considered the full power of SSJ when it’s not really true.

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    • LSS is the full power of the Legendary Saiyans version of Super Saiyan. That is why.

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    • We could think of it that way, but Toriyama said that Super Saiyan has more potential than any other form of Super Saiyan. This would mean that Legendary Super Saiyan as Super Saiyan full power could be the most powerful form that only the strongest can achieve. Besides, Vegeta's hair turned green before going blond in the Broly movie. Perhaps that was a hint at the nature of the form.

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    • That was just some extra effects added for the movie. Same thing with Goku looking like Ultra Instinct when he was transforming from God to Blue. It's all for show, considering Ultra Instinct is a stronger form than Blue to begin with.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      That was just some extra effects added for the movie. Same thing with Goku looking like Ultra Instinct when he was transforming from God to Blue. It's all for show, considering Ultra Instinct is a stronger form than Blue to begin with.

      Goku actually tried to go UI against Broly, but his mind was too awake to do it. Notice that while he was being thrashed, his pupils were gone just like when he first went UIO. If Piccolo didn't interfere, he would've gone UI.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:

      FlatZone wrote:
      That was just some extra effects added for the movie. Same thing with Goku looking like Ultra Instinct when he was transforming from God to Blue. It's all for show, considering Ultra Instinct is a stronger form than Blue to begin with.

      Goku actually tried to go UI against Broly, but his mind was too awake to do it. Notice that while he was being thrashed, his pupils were gone just like when he first went UIO. If Piccolo didn't interfere, he would've gone UI.

      No he wouldn’t, Toei said themselves that UI won’t be in the movie

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    • A thought just occured to me. There is one form that could be added to UI. Wrathful state. Great Ape isn't incorporated into UI on its own as far as we know. 

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    • But in Wrathful state you are pretty much always angry and can’t control yourself in UI you gotta have perfect control

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      A thought just occured to me. There is one form that could be added to UI. Wrathful state. Great Ape isn't incorporated into UI on its own as far as we know. 

      It would be possible, but I think it is unlikely due to how uncontrolable the form is. Ultra Instinct is all about total surender and letting your body do it all for you. Wrathful state does think, and it is too angry to let go of control. All it wants is to smash.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      That was just some extra effects added for the movie. Same thing with Goku looking like Ultra Instinct when he was transforming from God to Blue. It's all for show, considering Ultra Instinct is a stronger form than Blue to begin with.

      Ultra Instinct was a reference. It wasn't just special effects, Goku tried to do it but failed because he hasn't come close to mastering it by will yet. The Green could be explained as the true source of Super Saiyan's power. Toriyama did make the movie and he also made Super Saiyan, it's possible that it was a hint instead of a special effect. In the anime, When Kale used the form, Vegeta said that it could be the true form of the Saiyans.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Rogeta234 wrote:

      FlatZone wrote:
      That was just some extra effects added for the movie. Same thing with Goku looking like Ultra Instinct when he was transforming from God to Blue. It's all for show, considering Ultra Instinct is a stronger form than Blue to begin with.
      Goku actually tried to go UI against Broly, but his mind was too awake to do it. Notice that while he was being thrashed, his pupils were gone just like when he first went UIO. If Piccolo didn't interfere, he would've gone UI.
      No he wouldn’t, Toei said themselves that UI won’t be in the movie

      Yes, but that didn't mean Goku didn't try to go. 

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      A thought just occured to me. There is one form that could be added to UI. Wrathful state. Great Ape isn't incorporated into UI on its own as far as we know. 
      It would be possible, but I think it is unlikely due to how uncontrolable the form is. Ultra Instinct is all about total surender and letting your body do it all for you. Wrathful state does think, and it is too angry to let go of control. All it wants is to smash.

      Goku used rage to increase UI's power, and Great Ape was uncontrollable until someone found a way.

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    • My theory on why it’s called “full power” Super Saiyan instead of simple LSS(as we all know and love it as) is because this one is different not being stated to be genetically exclusive it is possible any Saiyan could achieve this form that utilizes the entire power structure of a Saiyan. Massive fan theory mode but that’s my thought.

      Personally I hope DBS is leading to some sort of new SS4 like transformation. The look of SS4 just feels whole for some reason. SSB could’ve had a tranquil old school feel to it but they destroyed it and Red making them just run of the mill transformations thrown at(sometimes bested by) anyone. I couldn’t even enjoy how strong Zamasu was or Jiren because literally EVERYONE had fought Blue form, there lacked a sense of prestige like the first, second, third and fourth forms.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      My theory on why it’s called “full power” Super Saiyan instead of simple LSS(as we all know and love it as) is because this one is different not being stated to be genetically exclusive it is possible any Saiyan could achieve this form that utilizes the entire power structure of a Saiyan. Massive fan theory mode but that’s my thought.

      The only way what you just said makes sense is if you also believe that they aren't the same form just for being green.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      My theory on why it’s called “full power” Super Saiyan instead of simple LSS(as we all know and love it as) is because this one is different not being stated to be genetically exclusive it is possible any Saiyan could achieve this form that utilizes the entire power structure of a Saiyan. Massive fan theory mode but that’s my thought.

      The only way what you just said makes sense is if you also believe that they aren't the same form just for being green.

      They aren’t the same form. Aside from sharing color.

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    • Broly is not using SSJ Full Power, otherwise Goku would have green hair and aura when transforming into a Super Saiyan. The form Broly used was LSSJ because fan service.

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    • They are literally the same form.

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    • But Goku does not get bulkier and get like 8 foot tall when he transforms into Full Power SSJ

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    • No, I was referring to them saying that Kale and Broly are using different forms, they quite literally are using the same form.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      No, I was referring to them saying that Kale and Broly are using different forms, they quite literally are using the same form.

      Yeah I don't get why people don't get this.

      And all this talk about SS Full Power keeps confusing me with SS Grade 4. As far as I'm concerned, there's no SS Full Power in current canon aside from G4 and the state that both Broly and Kale are using is LSS

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    • Grade 4 is SS Full Power

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    • Yeah Super Saiyan Grade 4 is also called Super Saiyan Full Power. Legendary Super Saiyan is also called Super Saiyan Full Power. Both Broly's and Kale are "Legendary Saiyans" so their SSFP isn't the same thing as a normal Saiyans SSFP

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    • They are not the same form, simply sharing color doesn’t make them the same form. They have completely different methods of activation and the new form has no mention of a monstrous Saiyan every 1000 years.

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    • That literally means nothing. Toriyama/Toyotaro brought LSS into canon and decided to expand upon its power and all, it is STILL the same form.

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    • Kale and Broly DBS and Broly DBZ are all using the same form. Kale is mentioned to be a Legendary Super Saiyan by Vegeta, and Caulifla and Cabba say that she is a Demon Saiyan whose power grows constantly. Universe 6 has it's own Legendary Super Saiyan myth it seems. The form Legendary Super Saiyan and Full Power Super Saiyan are the same form.

      Also it should be noted that Legendary Super Saiyan is also known as Full Power Super Saiyan. For the form Super Saiyan Grade 4, it is also known as Super Saiyan Full Power.

      There has been no proof that Full Power Super Saiyan and Legendary Super Saiyan are seperate forms. Thus they share the same page and are considered the same. Truthfully, I don't know why people think that they're seperate. Not saying that it's not possible, I just don't know where you got that idea.

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    • Here is why. One form is genetically exclusive(as stated in series) with no ties to a great ape. While the other form is only achieved by using Wrath sate and SS. One form makes the user insane and maniacal while the other they are simply on a rampage due to using the great ape power.

      You don’t need to prove two different forms different, if there are differences there are differences. Just because they are both green and one was left green as to not upset fans doesn’t mean they are the same form. Kale is made off of DBZ Broly by the anime crew specifically and holds no bearing on DBS Broly.

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    • The LSS form's requirements pre dbs broly movie were never delved into outside of genetics(which broly in the dbs movie was also said to be a mutant, so therefor genetics) not to mention the fact that Broly and Kale are literally U6 and U7 counterparts. Manga Kale shares the same forms, blank eyes, taller and buffed out raging Super Saiyan, and even bigger blank eyed even more buffed out even taller raging Super Saiyan. You keep thinking that the absense of something that was literally just thought up for the DBS Movie means they are different and that is entirely speculation, even saying they are different forms for the reasons you listed is speculation. Kale is a U6 Saiyan so her even needing Wrath State to go into LSS is iffy at best. Wrath State didn't exist before Broly DBS Movie, so saying they Kale and DBZ Broly not SHOWING it means they don't have it or their LSS forms are different is speculation. We have two options here, Wrath State is needed to be transformed into first for LSS, or Wrath State is not needed to first be transformed into for LSS. Either way it can still be a component of LSS, or not even a component at all. As far as the series is concerned with Manga and Anime Kale, along with Manga and Movie DBS Broly they are using the same form and are U6 and U7 counterparts. DBZ Broly would be too until stated otherwise.

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    • Wrath state didn’t exist prior to DBS Broly therefore it isn’t possible old Broly or Kale used it, DBZ Broly’s form was designed by Toriyama but the story and all other components were made by someone else. Same with Kale. It is presumptive to assume the form will be the same when Toriyama re-creates it. Kale being a universal counterpart is purely speculation as it is never stated. You cannot apply one work(Toei’s) to another (Toryamas’s) just because you want the forms to be the same.

      They called him a freak because he was really powerful, not a mutant. King Vegeta was terrified that his throne was in question which caused him to react in a very ugly manner.

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    • Both Broly and Kale's form is called Full Power Super Saiyan. Wrathful state is not needed to turn into LSSJ. Wrathful is not a form, it is using the power of the great ape inside of you WITHOUT TRANSFORMING. It is not needed to go LSSJ. Just as Broly added Ikari on top of Super Saiyan, he added Ikari on top of LSSJ which made him stronger. This helps to explain why Broly is so much stronger than Kale, he used the same power as her, he just added 10X with Ikari. Also, people keep talking about OG Broly's form being genetic. I haven't heard that one before. Where can I find info on this?

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    • You think its different because Wrath State wasn't a thing before, but now that it is it is quite apparent that the LSS form uses Wrath State as part of its power and form whether one goes into Wrath State first or simply goes straight into LSS which most likely Wrath State is a part of. You saying that Wrath State didn't exist before doesn't mean the forms can't be the same. It's the same thing as Toriyama later introducing S-Cells, Goku on Namek had S-Cells same as Goku in DBS.. difference is S-Cells wasn't named or thought of back at that time. It is still a part of Super Saiyan.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote: Both Broly and Kale's form is called Full Power Super Saiyan. Wrathful state is not needed to turn into LSSJ. Wrathful is not a form, it is using the power of the great ape inside of you WITHOUT TRANSFORMING. It is not needed to go LSSJ. Just as Broly added Ikari on top of Super Saiyan, he added Ikari on top of LSSJ which made him stronger. This helps to explain why Broly is so much stronger than Kale, he used the same power as her, he just added 10X with Ikari. Also, people keep talking about OG Broly's form being genetic. I haven't heard that one before. Where can I find info on this?

      His aura and eyes change. That’s a form, otherwise UI-O isn’t either

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    • FlatZone wrote: Wrath State is apart of.

      Did you mean apart from or a part of?

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    • a part of, I meant.

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    • So you’re saying that LSS and SSFP are the same form it just wasn’t known(in series) that they used Wrath State and wasn’t stated?(This is a genuine question I am asking)

      What about the lack of a second legend? What about the maniacal tendencies Kale and DBZ Broly gain?

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote: Both Broly and Kale's form is called Full Power Super Saiyan. Wrathful state is not needed to turn into LSSJ. Wrathful is not a form, it is using the power of the great ape inside of you WITHOUT TRANSFORMING. It is not needed to go LSSJ. Just as Broly added Ikari on top of Super Saiyan, he added Ikari on top of LSSJ which made him stronger. This helps to explain why Broly is so much stronger than Kale, he used the same power as her, he just added 10X with Ikari. Also, people keep talking about OG Broly's form being genetic. I haven't heard that one before. Where can I find info on this?

      Wrath State is a form. The “without transforming” is in reference to not turning into a hulking ape, which yields.. obvious drawbacks. It is indeed still a form and a part of LSS.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      Ya Boi King Kai wrote: Both Broly and Kale's form is called Full Power Super Saiyan. Wrathful state is not needed to turn into LSSJ. Wrathful is not a form, it is using the power of the great ape inside of you WITHOUT TRANSFORMING. It is not needed to go LSSJ. Just as Broly added Ikari on top of Super Saiyan, he added Ikari on top of LSSJ which made him stronger. This helps to explain why Broly is so much stronger than Kale, he used the same power as her, he just added 10X with Ikari. Also, people keep talking about OG Broly's form being genetic. I haven't heard that one before. Where can I find info on this?

      Wrath State is a form. The “without transforming” is in reference to not turning into a hulking ape, which yields.. obvious drawbacks. It is indeed still a form and a part of LSS.

      It was also speculated by his father that he was using ape power without transforming. So I mean that could be true or false still. Although he's using mouth blasts and going "ape"sh*t.

      Kale could also been doing Wrath state and LSS at the same time. Her transformation does seem to be trigger from anger and jealousy. Other U6 saiyans learned SS1 in different ways to (see Caulifla), but we don't call those different forms.

      U6 saiyans also used to have ape form but evolved away from using a tail. It's possible, since Broly also doesn't have a tail, that both characters have mutated to still tap into this power.

      Basically I just want to point out that it's not confirmed that Broly IS using great ape power (or that it's required for his "SSFP" form, he just happened to do wrath form first), nor is it confirmed that Kale is NOT using this power. Broly goes nuts before wrath state anyways ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • Can't wait to see Kale's Wrathful state and Broly's controlled LSSj form.

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    • Kale's form was triggered from Sorrow and Anger, as shown when Cabba went to recruit Caulifla. Kale was sorrowful, her Sorrow and Anger for her first transformation just wasn't about losing somebody dear, while DBS Broly's was.



      @Chrome yes I do after looking into it and thinking about it.

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    • FlatZone wrote: @Chrome yes I do after looking into it and thinking about it.

      That was unnecessary. We've all looked into and thought about it and arrived at different conclusions.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      FlatZone wrote: @Chrome yes I do after looking into it and thinking about it.

      That was unnecessary. We've all looked into and thought about it and arrived at different conclusions.

      He was responding to a post I made to clarify his position and see if there is a way we can arrive on the same page.

      @FlatZone I agree with you that they are the same form. Your logic with the S-Cells is completely sound and makes sense. As far as Manga Kale and DBZ Broly go it’s perfect. And the maniacal tendencies may have just been the users themselves. I was going to say they couldn’t be due to the anime Kale gaining blue eyes in her SS2/Mastered whatever but that was anime only and will be soon forgotten. So long and short you’re right, LSS is the same and Toriyama just made a new component.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Can't wait to see Kale's Wrathful state and Broly's controlled LSSj form.

      We definitely won't see the former. Because in order for the Wrathful state to happen, there needs to be the Great Ape form. As we know, Universe 6 Saiyans don't have tails and can't turn into them.

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    • Just because you don't have a tail, doesn't mean that you don't have the power og a Great Ape. Their bodies may have evolved, but their still Saiyans. But who knows. I just don't believe that Great Ape is derived only from the tail. The form exists within them, the tail is just the way for them to bring it out.

      As for the LSSJ or FPSSJ discussion, DBS Broly and Kale are using the same form. In the Tournament of Power, Caulifla calls Kale's form Full Power Super Saiyan. This is the same form that DBS Broly was using. I know this because in the game Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2, the DLC character for DBS Broly calls him "Broly (FPSSJ)" FPSSJ being Full Power Super Saiyan.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Can't wait to see Kale's Wrathful state and Broly's controlled LSSj form.
      We definitely won't see the former. Because in order for the Wrathful state to happen, there needs to be the Great Ape form. As we know, Universe 6 Saiyans don't have tails and can't turn into them.

      Nope. If Wrathful is part of LSSj, then the U6 sayians have to have it or the forms aren't the same.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:

      I know this because in the game 

      hahahahahahah. That's not proof of anything but what's in the game.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Rogeta234 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Can't wait to see Kale's Wrathful state and Broly's controlled LSSj form.
      We definitely won't see the former. Because in order for the Wrathful state to happen, there needs to be the Great Ape form. As we know, Universe 6 Saiyans don't have tails and can't turn into them.
      Nope. If Wrathful is part of LSSj, then the U6 sayians have to have it or the forms aren't the same.

      Or it could be they have another means to transform into LSSJ. 

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    • Keep in mind the lack of tail could mean Wrath State is all U6 Saiyans could achieve. Broly does not posses a tail after all. And also any differences can and will be retconned to fit Toriyama’s standards.

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    • Chrome0X wrote: Keep in mind the lack of tail could mean Wrath State is all U6 Saiyans could achieve. Broly does not posses a tail after all. And also any differences can and will be retconned to fit Toriyama’s standards.

      And that's the point where the pages should have been merged. After it's been shown that it's the same, not just based off of fan opinion.

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    • Well, in the future any information on the page will be overridden by new information coming from Broly. I think at the very least there may be a need for two separate versions of U7 and U6 especially since in the anime Kale did a bunch of unnecessary things cause the anime writers went a little buck wild.

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    • Well the language would also need to be cleaned up. Last time I checked every "version" of LSSj mentioned more differences than similarities. Also whatever name the Kefla had for her form is then the canon name for any fusion between LSSj and SS2. Plus that means Broly has a controlled form.

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    • Not being born with a tail does not mean they can't access Great Ape powers at all, Xeno Trunks was born without a tail and yet was about to have Super Saiyan 4 if not for them being stupid over his hair color in the form(obviously it would have been his normal hair color...) So if Trunks who was born without a tail can do it, then U6 should be able to, too.

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    • But that's not proof of anything, Flat. That's game-nonsense.

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    • That was decided by the people who control the Heroes series altogether, if it was from the arcade game only I wouldn't take it seriously but Trunks was going to get the form in the Heroes Manga too. SS4 and GT stuff are being handled by the same people who were handling GT originally for the most part. So in this case it's usable.

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    • Well, so far as I have seen, there is no proof that says that they are not the same form. If you're going to say that LSSJ is a seperate form from FPSSJ because one uses Ikari and the other doesn't, then we can't say that Broly went Super Saiyan because he used Ikari when he did it. Not to mention, there is no proof that Kale didn't use Ikari or OG Broly. Ikari was not actually invented in Broly. It's been around for a long time. Gohan used it in the earlier episodes of Z when he was training with Piccolo. In that episode when Goku's space pod made a projection of the moon, Gohan used Ikari without turning into a Great Ape because his tail had not full grown back yet. That would mean that Gohan is not using Super Saiyan.

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    • Trunks is a little different with not being born with a tail, for one it could’ve been removed at birth and for two all SS4 users regrow their tail while U6 Saiyans cannot regrow tails as they don’t have one in the first place.

      What Kale used I am now treating as a pseudo SS where they went to far ahead of Toriyama. It’s Blue eyes when mastered are out of place completely since Wrath state’s eyes are supposed to be present when it’s under control. Just like the hair was supposed to be golden as opposed to the brown color Toei used for Pseudo SS.

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    • Kid Gohan usied Ikari in early Z. Just saying...

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    • They fully intended to give Trunks the full SS4 form, tail included, hair color was stupidly an issue for them. So just because they are born without tails does not mean they can't acquire one as part of a transformation(SS4)

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    • Just how Super Saiyan plus Ikari is still just Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan and Full Power Super Saiyan have to be the same form. And they will be the same whether you add or take away Ikari.

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    • FlatZone wrote: They fully intended to give Trunks the full SS4 form, tail included, hair color was stupidly an issue for them. So just because they are born without tails does not mean they can't acquire one as part of a transformation(SS4)

      Hair colour?? They don’t care that future and kid trunks have different coloured hair, why would they have any reason to care about SSj4?!

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    • Ikari =\= wrathful state right? I can’t believe anyone here would call what anyone aside from DBS Broly was using that. Where’s the greeeeeeeeeeeeeen?!

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    • Yeah that was the issue according to them. The SS4 hair color which as shown with 99% of all SS4 users is just their base form hair color... was somehow an issue they couldn’t decide on

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    • Wow. Didn’t know they thought gogeta’s natural hair colour was red. Idiots

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    • He's the one they got high and then decided to design. Everyone else has their base hair color for the hair.

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    • (which isn't 99.9% since there aren't hundreds of SS4s)

      I prefer Gogeta's coloring to the other SS4s

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    • I mean the red hair is ok and all but why?? literally no other SS4 has red hair and being a fusion is just a weird excuse for it if it even is one

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    • It especially doesn’t make sense when you look at Vegito SS4. Honestly I don’t think they were sober a single moment in GT. They named a main villain baby. Who names a villain baby?

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      I mean the red hair is ok and all but why?? literally no other SS4 has red hair and being a fusion is just a weird excuse for it if it even is one

      Gogeta's clearly ss5, they just didn't want to disclose that. Brown fur makes WAY more sense than crimson.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      I mean the red hair is ok and all but why?? literally no other SS4 has red hair and being a fusion is just a weird excuse for it if it even is one
      Gogeta's clearly ss5, they just didn't want to disclose that. Brown fur makes WAY more sense than crimson.

      for me it is because the effect of fusion dance that makes gogeta hair is red while his fur is brown

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    • Kiryuthunder1 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      I mean the red hair is ok and all but why?? literally no other SS4 has red hair and being a fusion is just a weird excuse for it if it even is one
      Gogeta's clearly ss5, they just didn't want to disclose that. Brown fur makes WAY more sense than crimson.
      for me it is because the effect of fusion dance that makes gogeta hair is red while his fur is brown

      Tell that to SSj4 Vegito

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Kiryuthunder1 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      FlatZone wrote:
      I mean the red hair is ok and all but why?? literally no other SS4 has red hair and being a fusion is just a weird excuse for it if it even is one
      Gogeta's clearly ss5, they just didn't want to disclose that. Brown fur makes WAY more sense than crimson.
      for me it is because the effect of fusion dance that makes gogeta hair is red while his fur is brown
      Tell that to SSj4 Vegito

      Well for SSJ4 Vegito, i think its also because of the Potara, i used to think in the past that Potara is the perfect and stable method of fusing rather than Fusion Dance that affect the fusion appearance

      I think is a cool concept that Vegito retaining its normal appearance as SSJ4 like Goku and Vegeta while Gogeta is the reverse

      I know this sound stupid but this is just my opinion

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    • It would be cool if the reason why SS4 Gogetas hair was crimson was because Goku got energy from Saiyans and fused with Vegeta, merging his energy with Goku’s and Gogeta became a false Super Saiyan God

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    • Maybe Gogeta is in some kind of Pseudo Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 4 hybrid

      What I find interesting is that PSSj also has the instinctual thing that UI-O does, but on a way lower scale.

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    • I always thought that PSSJ was closer to Ikari.

      As for Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta, I think they wanted to make his hair red to better desringuish him from Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta. I also thought about the Super Saiyan god 4 thing, but in the end, SSG didn't exist yet. Though I do personally believe that Super Saiyan god was designed with SSJ4 Gogeta and Super Saiyan 4 in mind.

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    • Can we stick with established canon please? I mean I've looked up the word "Ikari" in the search engine and whatever you're talking about isn't apparent.

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    • Ikari is just japanese for "Anger" "Rage" "Fury". Broly uses 怒りの状態 = Ikari no Jōtai = Wrath State so fans simply calling it Ikari is kind of lame, I agree on that.

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    • Super Saiyan Rage/Anger

      LSSj

      Wrathful State

      Super Saiyan: Berserk



      Your word, Ya Boi, is too nonspecific.

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    • I like to call it Ikari. I think I will stick with it. Beside, Super Saiyan Rage/Anger was not named in canon. It only recieved a name in Heroes. Super Saiyan 2 also went by that name in times past.

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    • alright but then I will also endeavor to never know what you're talking about.

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    • ...

      ...

      ...

      ...Anyway, what were we talking about again? I think it was how UI-O was similar to Pseudo Super Saiyan.

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    • It's also one of two forms that I'm aware of that can't be accessed at will that happen when a Saiyan is at theri end. What's weird is how the actual super saiyan form doens't have the instinct thing.

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    • It seems to me that actual Super Saiyan has a little more control. Ikari and Pseudo Super Saiyan act mostly on anger, and while I still think that there may be some form of angry thought process going on in there, they analyze a bit less and act on primal instinct which is to smash and destroy anything tha makes them mad. While I don't personally think that either Pseudo Super Saiyan or Ikari can use Ultra Instinct like that, I do think that they're closer than other forms. In Super Saiyan, Goku can talk and think and do all sorts of things. People who use Ikari and Pseudo Super Saiyan tend to be more quiet.

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    • I'd like SSGPSS then

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    • I'd like if pseudo SS was never spoken of or suggest again too... It's literally just a prediction of what the actual SS would look like before it was released. It being triggered by anger is nothing special. Pretty much all of them aside from SSB, SSG, and SS3 were developed through rage.

      Gogeta is not a PSS4. He's just SS4. They gave him different color hair and fur for artistic reasons. We're just over thinking this, honestly.

      Trunks wouldn't look too bad as SS4 honestly. Current Trunks SS4


      Future Trunks SS4

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    • Guess those were too large. Current Trunks Future Trunks

      You can also find some black haired versions on Google

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    • Well, Pseudo Super Saiyan is actually kind of canon. It isn't actually Super Saiyan, but every time it appears it is mistaken for it. It actually made a canon appearance when Vegeta powered up against Frieza on Planet Namek. I saw that and I was like "Man! They made it canon!"

      Here is a link to the scene.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olxdMFPtcAk

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    • Nothing in anime pre Super is canon. Mostly because of translation errors and filler. I can't watch the clip yet but I will tomorrow when I'm not using cell data.

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    • ExiaTreason wrote:
      Nothing in anime pre Super is canon. Mostly because of translation errors and filler. I can't watch the clip yet but I will tomorrow when I'm not using cell data.

      I should clarify as I rushed that comment... I meant any differences in the anime pre-super is canon.

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    • You mean that anything in the anime that doesn't corroberate with the Mange pre-Super is non-canon?

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    • non-canon to the manga right? Since Super is Anime first and doesn't have that restriction, regardless of how the creator sees it? Like it doesn't matter if he chose a successor and gave an outline to him because the anime he's also involved with is released first. (and not in a filler way)

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    • Was the Pseudo Super Saiyan scene shown in the vid above canon to the manga? I haven't read the manga and have to guess by what I read online about filler and key story stuff.

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    • No, but it’s canon to the anime which is just as important.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      non-canon to the manga right? Since Super is Anime first and doesn't have that restriction, regardless of how the creator sees it? Like it doesn't matter if he chose a successor and gave an outline to him because the anime he's also involved with is released first. (and not in a filler way)

      The manga is ahead of the canon in story. How can the anime be released first?

      Saying DBZ anime "canon" is important is like saying fillers are important.

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    • It’s only ahead now, since the anime took a break. So really, Moro is filler. :p

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    • The anime and Manga have separate canons to each other now and Ultra Instinct and Goku Black are better written in the anime.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      The anime and Manga have separate canons to each other now and Ultra Instinct and Goku Black are better written in the anime.

      I'm aware that for Super the anime and Manga are seperate canon. I was referring to pre Super

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    • ... anything pre-super in the anime would still be canon to the super anime wouldn't it?

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    • Not true, turns out Toriyama is unhappy with the last half of Super, and liked the manga better. Terez on twitter tweeted about it or responded about it. If the animators are told by Toriyama that he wants them to stop, then they will and he MAY have done that.. so no more Super anime. Also it has already been confirmed that the Super Manga is the canon rendition according to the official timeline that was introduced awhile ago.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      making up numbers is not calculations.

      do it yourself then 

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    • NervousShipper wrote: It’s only ahead now, since the anime took a break. So really, Moro is filler. :p

      ......

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    • PowerLevelCalculator wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      making up numbers is not calculations.
      do it yourself then 

      Not exactly a logical response... If he said that it's not calculations then why would he want to do the same thing?

      There's no official numbers or multipliers for anything you spoke about. It was random guessing.

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    • Dragon Ball Z filler episodes might not be canon. After all, The filler episodes have Icarus (that dumb dragon from Tree of Might and Cooler's Revenge) in them. We never see it again. Just in some episodes of Z. Then *poof* no Icarus. Guess Goku ate him.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, Pseudo Super Saiyan is actually kind of canon. It isn't actually Super Saiyan, but every time it appears it is mistaken for it. It actually made a canon appearance when Vegeta powered up against Frieza on Planet Namek. I saw that and I was like "Man! They made it canon!"

      Here is a link to the scene.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olxdMFPtcAk

      Just got a chance to watch this. He doesn't actually reach PSS here. It looks like they just did a bit of forshadowing with the partial aura color for when Goku does SS1 later on.

      He even goes back to his blue aura afterward. This is like saying SS Green (it was more pronounced than LSS) is canon because Vegeta had green hair before going SS against Broly in the movie :/

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    • ExiaTreason wrote:
      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, Pseudo Super Saiyan is actually kind of canon. It isn't actually Super Saiyan, but every time it appears it is mistaken for it. It actually made a canon appearance when Vegeta powered up against Frieza on Planet Namek. I saw that and I was like "Man! They made it canon!"

      Here is a link to the scene.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olxdMFPtcAk

      Just got a chance to watch this. He doesn't actually reach PSS here. It looks like they just did a bit of forshadowing with the partial aura color for when Goku does SS1 later on.

      He even goes back to his blue aura afterward. This is like saying SS Green (it was more pronounced than LSS) is canon because Vegeta had green hair before going SS against Broly in the movie :/

      Vegeta Wrathful State confirmed. I agree with you Exia, I think it's awesome that Vegeta now has that form canonically

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      ExiaTreason wrote:
      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, Pseudo Super Saiyan is actually kind of canon. It isn't actually Super Saiyan, but every time it appears it is mistaken for it. It actually made a canon appearance when Vegeta powered up against Frieza on Planet Namek. I saw that and I was like "Man! They made it canon!"

      Here is a link to the scene.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olxdMFPtcAk

      Just got a chance to watch this. He doesn't actually reach PSS here. It looks like they just did a bit of forshadowing with the partial aura color for when Goku does SS1 later on.

      He even goes back to his blue aura afterward. This is like saying SS Green (it was more pronounced than LSS) is canon because Vegeta had green hair before going SS against Broly in the movie :/

      Vegeta Wrathful State confirmed. I agree with you Exia, I think it's awesome that Vegeta now has that form canonically

      I would actually like it for him to have an SS Green (with a better name than Green)

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    • ExiaTreason wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      ExiaTreason wrote:
      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Well, Pseudo Super Saiyan is actually kind of canon. It isn't actually Super Saiyan, but every time it appears it is mistaken for it. It actually made a canon appearance when Vegeta powered up against Frieza on Planet Namek. I saw that and I was like "Man! They made it canon!"

      Here is a link to the scene.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olxdMFPtcAk

      Just got a chance to watch this. He doesn't actually reach PSS here. It looks like they just did a bit of forshadowing with the partial aura color for when Goku does SS1 later on.

      He even goes back to his blue aura afterward. This is like saying SS Green (it was more pronounced than LSS) is canon because Vegeta had green hair before going SS against Broly in the movie :/

      Vegeta Wrathful State confirmed. I agree with you Exia, I think it's awesome that Vegeta now has that form canonically
      I would actually like it for him to have an SS Green (with a better name than Green)

      SSNG Super Saiyan Neon Green

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    • ...Or we could just call it by it's name. "Full Power Super Saiyan."

      LOL

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    • It's officially translated to "Super Saiyan Full Power" or "Super Broly (Full Power)".

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    • No, I'm looking at it right now. It's Full Power Super Saiyan. It's different from what Goku and Gohan learned in the HBTC. THAT form was Super Saiyan Full Power.

      The form that Goku takes when he is in Super Saiyan 4 is called Super Full Power Saiyan.

      There is a difference in these forms, they just shift the "Full Power" part of the name around to distinguish it.

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    • Wrong again, " Super Saiyan Full Power (超サイヤ人フルパワー, Chō Saiya-jin Furu Pawā)[1] " dragonballuniverse wikia actually took the time to properly translate the name from the premium book. Xenoverse 2 is what got it wrong.

      it's also been called

      " Super Saiyan Broly Full Power (超サイヤ人ブロリー (フルパワー), Sūpā Saiya-jin Burorī (Furu Pawā))[3] "

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote: No, I'm looking at it right now. It's Full Power Super Saiyan. It's different from what Goku and Gohan learned in the HBTC. THAT form was Super Saiyan Full Power.

      The form that Goku takes when he is in Super Saiyan 4 is called Super Full Power Saiyan.

      There is a difference in these forms, they just shift the "Full Power" part of the name around to distinguish it.

      Ss1 grade 4 is also officially called super saiyan full power.

      Regardless. The shade of green Vegeta had was a different green. But just to be clear... its called legendary super saiyan

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    • LSSJ. They should keep it. It is harder to confuse with other forms. Besides... as the guy/gal above me said, it's what it is.

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    • Legendary Super Saiyan is leagues better of a name than Super Saiyan Full Power, (we also already have Full Power Super Saiyan) and Super Saiyan C-type. It's like the difference between calling something "Milk" vs "cow juice" or "utter pus"

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    • LOL!

      I can here it now...

      "Hey, Ma! I'm thirsty. Can I have an ice cold glass of utter pus?"

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    • If I may return this forum to it's original and intended purpose, I have another idea as to where the Multipliers for Ultra Instinct may lie.

      As we've been writing above about the grades of Super Saiyan, I began to think about something. Super Saiyan has a multiplier of 50X right? We don't exactly know where these others lie, but I think it would be safe to say that Super Saiyan Grade 2 would be a 5X increase (Goku mentions this to Vegeta who would have no need to suppress his power, however this is just a theory, that Vegeta would need to be at least 3X stronger to beat Cell, and of course he was adding in Super Saiyan 1, elsewise Vegeta would not need to be warned.) Since he did more than just "had a chance"and instead skunked Semi-Perfect Cell, I could say that he is perhaps 5X stronger than regular Super Saiyan 1. Then Comes Trunks who uses 3rd Grade which is said to be 10X stronger than Super Saiyan Grade 2. That means that it is 50X stronger than Super Saiyan 1 which would be a 500X multiplier. When Goku and Gohan achieved Super Saiyan Grade 4, they were stated to be of at least the same strength as Super Trunks because Cell calls Goku "the strongest man he had ever fought." So he is at least as strong as Trunks who was stated to be above even Perfect Cell, but too slow to hit him. Later Goku notes that Cell is not going full force, but we must not forget that it was shown that Cell had been training. So, to me, I feel that it is correct that Mastered Super Saiyan has a 500X multiplier.

      Now here is where this comes to it's importance. I was thinking about what makes Ultra Instinct what it is, and realize that it is almost the same conditions as Mastered Super Saiyan.

      Gain control of your body (Via training)

      Gain control of your mind (for MSSJ that's becoming docile through constant use of Super Saiyan)

      Gain control of you spirit (Which can allow you to stay in your form indeffinately)

      Perfect your technique (Which is required to more easily enter UI according to the ideas that are used in martial arts in reality.)



      As for UI, you have to be able to SHUT OFF your mind (the decision making part) and let your body do what it was trained to do via technique. Gain control of your spirit which allows for more acurate use of energy which is what Whis was trying to teach them when he put them in his staff. This is also why Goku could not stay in the Mastered form for so long. He could not properly manage his energy and paid the price. Your body of course must be trained to handle it too. Body and spirit and all that jazz.

      So in conclusion, Both MSSJ and MUI (Which both are called a Mastered form) revolve around total control of your body and it's functions. Thus, I have com to believe that Mastered Ultra Instinct is 50X stronger than Super Saiyan Blue KAioken X20 (which is on the same level as SSBE which seems to me like Super Saiyan Grade 2 Blue.) So I personally believe that Mastered Ultra Instinct is Super Saiyan god X 50,000.

      Take that for what it's worth.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:

      Super Saiyan has a multiplier of 50X right? We don't exactly know where these others lie, but I think it would be safe to say that Super Saiyan Grade 2 would be a 5X increase (Goku mentions this to Vegeta who would have no need to suppress his power, however this is just a theory, that Vegeta would need to be at least 3X stronger to beat Cell, and of course he was adding in Super Saiyan 1, elsewise Vegeta would not need to be warned.) Since he did more than just "had a chance"and instead skunked Semi-Perfect Cell, I could say that he is perhaps 5X stronger than regular Super Saiyan 1. Then Comes Trunks who uses 3rd Grade which is said to be 10X stronger than Super Saiyan Grade 2. That means that it is 50X stronger than Super Saiyan 1 which would be a 500X multiplier. When Goku and Gohan achieved Super Saiyan Grade 4, they were stated to be of at least the same strength as Super Trunks because Cell calls Goku "the strongest man he had ever fought." So he is at least as strong as Trunks who was stated to be above even Perfect Cell, but too slow to hit him. Later Goku notes that Cell is not going full force, but we must not forget that it was shown that Cell had been training. So, to me, I feel that it is correct that Mastered Super Saiyan has a 500X multiplier.

      I'd hate to bring this back yet again, but I just looked this over again after you'd mentioned this. I just want to reiterate that anything in anime that isn't in the manga is not considered canon.

      In the manga, Goku only asks Vegeta if it went as planned (referring to the training), and then asks if he wanted Vegeta to be teleported to Cell. Of course Vegeta declines and takes off. But there wasn't any other interaction with the 2 characters besides this.

      Secondly, in the anime itself Goku was certainly not comparing Vegeta's SS1 power to current Cell. He doesn't know Vegeta's SS1 power, it's not like they have their own guide book telling them exact multipliers. In fact the multipliers for SS1 (the official ones) are pretty much blatantly not 50x after the Frieza saga. It's basically head canon now. And assuming Goku was comparing his SS1 form and not base form is even more head canon.

      Lastly, Piccolo, who is far more intelligent, and has a much better sense of how strong someone is over Goku, still thought Vegeta wasn't strong enough to fight Semi Perfect Cell. This is because you can't predict what power someone has in their SS form if they aren't SS.

      Ya Boi King Kai wrote:

      So in conclusion, Both MSSJ and MUI (Which both are called a Mastered form) revolve around total control of your body and it's functions.

      Actually UI is the opposite of total control of your body. This is explained in all medias for DBS.

      As for the multiplier I'm not sure it should be compared with SSG in specific, since I don't think it's a divine form (any mortal should be able to master it according to Whis. Although it seems only Angels and some Gods of Destruction can do it).

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    • Later information defeats older information, especially when the newer info comes from guidebooks. So SS ended up being 50x anyway, SS2 is SS x2 and SS3 is SS2 x4. Great Ape is 10x current power level. Those are the facts that we have

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    • I say "Full control of your body" because it's technically true. You can't have UI without all of these other things incorperated into it. What Mastered Super Saiyan and Mastered Ultra Instinct have different is how you go about it. For the mind, In MSSJ, you've got to get control of your mind so you no longer feel the anger and think clearly. For MUI, it's gaining enough control of your mind to be able to tell it when and how to shut off. All the other stuff is important too, but to achieve the form, you have to tell the mind to surrender which is not an easy thing to do. It's near impossible to enter a flow-state of your own will, and flow-state is part of what makes Ultra Instinct what it is.

      Maybe we don't know for certain where SSJ G2 and G3 lie, but I feel that MSSJ would be closer to MUI. I said SSG because it's just clearly stronger than that. Maybe it is or isn't using SSG, but it's 50,000X stronger than a form that does. I also involved Kaioken X20, but MUI is clearly not using that either.

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    • MUI gained a strength boost from anger, not a reduction in power, so it isn't the lack of control of your mind because reflex reactions aren't altered by emotion.

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    • Reflex reactions are what UI is though. To dodge before you mind can fully percieve and send signals. I think it is the decision making part of the breain that get's shut off. After all, Vegeta can't achieve it because he's too analytical.

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    • Then how can getting angry help that? Anger is reactionary and personal. Instinct isn't personal

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    • Therefore Ultra Instinct breaks logic.



      It doesn't have to make sense I guess... We are talking about a show where they fly through the sky on clouds and shoot lasers from their hands...

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Therefore Ultra Instinct breaks logic.


      It doesn't have to make sense I guess... We are talking about a show where they fly through the sky on clouds and shoot lasers from their hands...

      Suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Shows have rules and internal logic, it's when they break that that they stray into badly written territory.

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    • I concur.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Later information defeats older information, especially when the newer info comes from guidebooks. So SS ended up being 50x anyway, SS2 is SS x2 and SS3 is SS2 x4. Great Ape is 10x current power level. Those are the facts that we have

      I do agree with you to a point. My only issue is that SS2 feels drastically more powerful than SS1, it feels like around 4x. Where as Goku going SS3 in the Buu saga felt a lot less impactful. He wasn't completely annihilating Buu like Gohan did to Cell. If anything SS3 feels more like 2x to me.

      But at the end of the day official info is official info and the show doesn't seem to always visually show us these power differences properly...

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    • One thing I do know is that Fully Mastered Super Saiyan is a multiplier of at least 400X now.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      One thing I do know is that Fully Mastered Super Saiyan is a multiplier of at least 400X now.

      How's that exactly?

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    • He's referring to the truly mastered Super Saiyan that Toriyama was talking about.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      He's referring to the truly mastered Super Saiyan that Toriyama was talking about.

      Yeah not sure how that works exactly or if it even exists. You'd think that no matter how strong SS1 gets, you can still just power up to SS3 to make it 8x stronger. Unless SS3 just becomes impossible at some point? It just never made sense to me.

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    • Toriyama stated in an interview with Saikyo Jump injune 2014 that Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 are both just variants of the original Super Saiyan form, and thus if Goku were to fully master the form it would be stronger than even Super Saiyan 3's multiplier because all other Super Saiyan variants are just shortcuts to the forms full power. That mingled with the fact that the only time that Goku used Super Saiyan 3 after B.O.G was when he was showcasing it it Caulifla and Kale. I think I read somewhere that Toriyama has decided not to focus on SSJ2 and 3 anymore. So I guess Goku has fully mastered the original Super Saiyan form which also explains why Vegeta will never do it even if he's strong enough. SSJ1 is just better now.

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    • Ya Boi King Kai wrote:
      Toriyama stated in an interview with Saikyo Jump injune 2014 that Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 are both just variants of the original Super Saiyan form, and thus if Goku were to fully master the form it would be stronger than even Super Saiyan 3's multiplier because all other Super Saiyan variants are just shortcuts to the forms full power. That mingled with the fact that the only time that Goku used Super Saiyan 3 after B.O.G was when he was showcasing it it Caulifla and Kale. I think I read somewhere that Toriyama has decided not to focus on SSJ2 and 3 anymore. So I guess Goku has fully mastered the original Super Saiyan form which also explains why Vegeta will never do it even if he's strong enough. SSJ1 is just better now.

      You forgot that Goku used SSJ3 against Future Trunks.

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    • Goku used SS2 and SS3 in the Moro Arc. He hasn't reached the fully mastered SS that Toriyama talked about yet and neither has Vegeta. There were using just SS in the Broly Movie.

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    • Why reach it? They have god forms now. Shouldn't that be better?

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    • Same reason that despite the god forms they still use SS in battle, they don't always go at things with their trump card forms in battle

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Same reason that despite the god forms they still use SS in battle, they don't always go at things with their trump card forms in battle

      So then it's a lucky thing that no one has faked them out and one-shot killed them after witnessing their first transformation.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      FlatZone wrote:
      Same reason that despite the god forms they still use SS in battle, they don't always go at things with their trump card forms in battle

      So then it's a lucky thing that no one has faked them out and one-shot killed them after witnessing their first transformation.

      Yeah pretty much...

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    • Just like with Caulifla, I think Goku showed Future Trunks his Super Saiyan 3 form as more of a showcase. Like saying "Look how far I've gone, and this isn't even my all!"

      Now I can't vouch for the reasons why he used it in the Moro Arc, as I've not read that yet. But look at how he was using it. Was it in a sort of show-off kind of way?

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    • Allow me to be the first to put any “speculations” to bed. Ive read through enough to be disappointed. First off, we have many things to go off of, but few numbers to base DBS’ new forms strengths on. However, substantial evidence goes towards the numbers on Goku’s forms. First off, in the series, Beerus was said to only have used 20% of his full power, implying that the “70%” reference number would only complicate in calculating how powerful UI truly is, especially since the Tournament of Power was in the series and not the movies. Secondly, we can infer the differences in fusions equating to overall power that resulted from the fusion. Bare in mind the efficiency of each fusion. The Fusion dance does NOT separate until the allotted time frame is over, even if the fusion exerts itself to the extent of surpassing even deities like Beerus the Destroyer, who is arguably confirmed to be the strongest Destroyer Deity in terms of skill and ki. The Potara fusion separates if the fusion exerts itself too greatly, and from what we saw during Vegito’s battle against Fused Zamasu, Vegito may have actually been significantly weaker than Goku at Super Saiyan Blue fully exerting himself, evidenced by the fact that Vegito was stalemated by Zamasu while Goku alone managed to nearly detrimentally overwhelm Fused Zamasu during a beam clash after the fusion had already broken, despite having no Senzu Beans to recover and ultimately raise his power level exponentially since they had already used them to have the strength to fuse. Backing up to Gogeta, we have already seen how powerful Gogeta is, and we’ve also seen that Gogeta’s power is based on Goku’s, evidenced by the appearance Gogeta takes and by the fact that he was unable to reach Blue Evolution despite the fact that Blue Kaioken x20 was said to EQUAL Evo, and in order for a fusion to work, both user’s are required to have a similar or equal power level, with the exception most likely being the Potara. Even still, Goku mentioned after the fight with Broly that the overwhelmingly powerful Saiyan may have been stronger than Beerus. This in itself gives massive details as to the pure strength of the Gogeta fusion. As such, the Gogeta Blue form already earns a great honor in raw power. To put it in terms of Ultra Instinct’s power, Jiren was said to be stronger than ALMOST all of the Destroyers. The noble exception was Supposedly Lord Beerus. Goku managed to narrowly surpass Jiren, stalemating for a short while before finally gaining the lead in power. If this is indeed the case, than all evidence already points to Gogeta Blue being far stronger than MUI if we assume that Jiren was still weaker than Beerus, even while at full power. Again, this evidence is based off of information given throughout the series and may not be accurate, but it is at least a baseline. Anyway, if we consider the assumed multiplier of SSJB of 125,00x base form, and then factor in how powerful Vegeta and Goku are in their base forms, add their power levels together and multiply them by about 20 assuming thats the fusion multiplier, representing the Gogeta fusion, and then multiplying that by the SSJB multiplier, we may be able to get a base number to divide down to understand how actually powerful MUI is once a difference number is achieved. If we take the common number on MUI Goku’s power level, which is retrieved from result consistency and averages, of 12 sextillion, and then divide that by Goku’s supposed base during the Universal Survival Saga, which was also obtained through result consistency and averages, of 90 trillion, we get a multiplier of 133,333,333x base form. Now, if we take the Gogeta fusion and do the same thing, we should find the difference in power. Vegeta, who, although still behind Goku, has always managed to stay close behind Goku. And, as I previously stated, the Fusion dance requires the individuals to have similar power levels in order for a fusion to succeed, although it also requires the two to not butcher the dance horribly. That said, we can most likely rank Vegeta’s base form at about 80 trillion. Now, if we add the two numbers together and then multiply them by the supposed fusion multiplier of 20, we get 3.4x10^20 at base form, which I am unsure what that equates to in numbers, but to put it into perspective, the calculator cannot fit the whole number. Now, if we take that number and multiply it by the Blue multiplier, we get 4.25x10^20 on the calculator. Finally, if we divide this by the base form of Gogeta, we get a staggering multiplier of 25,000,000x the base form average of Goku and Vegeta, and while it may not be as high of a multiplier as MUI, we are still considering the fact that the Gogeta Blue multiplier affects the combined and multiplied powers of Vegeta and Goku. So, with that said, upon multiplying the average of the two Saiyan’s power levels by the Blue Gogeta multiplier, we get 8.5x10^21. The rest is simple, but lets also put into perspective how much stronger Goku and Vegeta are after the Universal Survival Saga. This number may not be accurate to how much raw power SSJB Gogeta has during Dragon Ball Super: Broly. However, if we take into consideration that after Goku fought at SSJG, his SSJ form maintained a similar, if not, equal power level to SSJG, we might be able gauge how much Goku’s base form gained as a result of fighting at MUI. I’ll leave that part to you guys. We can also assume that Vegeta is the same way, thus allowing us to gauge how strong Vegeta became in his base form after fighting at SSJBE. Again, I’ll leave that to you guys. Take those numbers and apply the numbers that I’ve set up here for the Gogeta Blue multiplier. Your result will most likely lead to the conclusion that Gogeta Blue is stronger than MUI Goku. One last piece of evidence is that Goku mentioned to Broly a few things before leaving, those being that Broly may be stronger than Beerus, which Goku did not say to Jiren. Furthermore, Goku stated that he was sure that he was reaching the limit of his power until Broly came along, which already implies that Broly is stronger than MUI if we assume that Goku was including the MUI boost in that “limit”. That said, the fact that Gogeta managed to nonchalantly beat Broly until the Saiyan was but an inch from death(seeing as how Gogeta smiled and effortlessly dodged his was through the entire fight after reaching Blue), we can see how Gogeta Blue makes MUI pale in comparison to its majesty. I do hope that sufficiently explains things and helps everyone understand the scale of things. Have a nice day and, please...dont kill me or each other over this information. Im just theorizing based on information from the series.

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    • Oh. One more thing. Broly pummeled Goku and Vegeta while they were both at SSJB, and did so while making it look like nothing at all. Goku and Vegeta at least held their ground against Jiren and got decent hits off in their corresponding unique blue forms, which they got none of against Broly.

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    • Jiren was still holding wayyyyyy back. He didn't stop holding back until Goku went into UI SIgn for the last time. Jiren was toying with them the entire time. Then that's also not even mentioning Jiren awakening his Super Full Power state which had more raw power than MUI Goku and only lost in Speed once Goku got enraged from Jiren sending that blast at the stands. Jiren is the strongest mortal as of yet, and he never stopped training either.. in fact he and Top pretty much said they would train even more so if there is a next time, they won't lose to U7.

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    • Zeta-47 wrote:
      Allow me to be the first to put any “speculations” to bed. Ive read through enough to be disappointed. First off, we have many things to go off of, but few numbers to base DBS’ new forms strengths on. However, substantial evidence goes towards the numbers on Goku’s forms. First off, in the series, Beerus was said to only have used 20% of his full power, implying that the “70%” reference number would only complicate in calculating how powerful UI truly is, especially since the Tournament of Power was in the series and not the movies. Secondly, we can infer the differences in fusions equating to overall power that resulted from the fusion. Bare in mind the efficiency of each fusion. The Fusion dance does NOT separate until the allotted time frame is over, even if the fusion exerts itself to the extent of surpassing even deities like Beerus the Destroyer, who is arguably confirmed to be the strongest Destroyer Deity in terms of skill and ki. The Potara fusion separates if the fusion exerts itself too greatly, and from what we saw during Vegito’s battle against Fused Zamasu, Vegito may have actually been significantly weaker than Goku at Super Saiyan Blue fully exerting himself, evidenced by the fact that Vegito was stalemated by Zamasu while Goku alone managed to nearly detrimentally overwhelm Fused Zamasu during a beam clash after the fusion had already broken, despite having no Senzu Beans to recover and ultimately raise his power level exponentially since they had already used them to have the strength to fuse. Backing up to Gogeta, we have already seen how powerful Gogeta is, and we’ve also seen that Gogeta’s power is based on Goku’s, evidenced by the appearance Gogeta takes and by the fact that he was unable to reach Blue Evolution despite the fact that Blue Kaioken x20 was said to EQUAL Evo, and in order for a fusion to work, both user’s are required to have a similar or equal power level, with the exception most likely being the Potara. Even still, Goku mentioned after the fight with Broly that the overwhelmingly powerful Saiyan may have been stronger than Beerus. This in itself gives massive details as to the pure strength of the Gogeta fusion. As such, the Gogeta Blue form already earns a great honor in raw power. To put it in terms of Ultra Instinct’s power, Jiren was said to be stronger than ALMOST all of the Destroyers. The noble exception was Supposedly Lord Beerus. Goku managed to narrowly surpass Jiren, stalemating for a short while before finally gaining the lead in power. If this is indeed the case, than all evidence already points to Gogeta Blue being far stronger than MUI if we assume that Jiren was still weaker than Beerus, even while at full power. Again, this evidence is based off of information given throughout the series and may not be accurate, but it is at least a baseline. Anyway, if we consider the assumed multiplier of SSJB of 125,00x base form, and then factor in how powerful Vegeta and Goku are in their base forms, add their power levels together and multiply them by about 20 assuming thats the fusion multiplier, representing the Gogeta fusion, and then multiplying that by the SSJB multiplier, we may be able to get a base number to divide down to understand how actually powerful MUI is once a difference number is achieved. If we take the common number on MUI Goku’s power level, which is retrieved from result consistency and averages, of 12 sextillion, and then divide that by Goku’s supposed base during the Universal Survival Saga, which was also obtained through result consistency and averages, of 90 trillion, we get a multiplier of 133,333,333x base form. Now, if we take the Gogeta fusion and do the same thing, we should find the difference in power. Vegeta, who, although still behind Goku, has always managed to stay close behind Goku. And, as I previously stated, the Fusion dance requires the individuals to have similar power levels in order for a fusion to succeed, although it also requires the two to not butcher the dance horribly. That said, we can most likely rank Vegeta’s base form at about 80 trillion. Now, if we add the two numbers together and then multiply them by the supposed fusion multiplier of 20, we get 3.4x10^20 at base form, which I am unsure what that equates to in numbers, but to put it into perspective, the calculator cannot fit the whole number. Now, if we take that number and multiply it by the Blue multiplier, we get 4.25x10^20 on the calculator. Finally, if we divide this by the base form of Gogeta, we get a staggering multiplier of 25,000,000x the base form average of Goku and Vegeta, and while it may not be as high of a multiplier as MUI, we are still considering the fact that the Gogeta Blue multiplier affects the combined and multiplied powers of Vegeta and Goku. So, with that said, upon multiplying the average of the two Saiyan’s power levels by the Blue Gogeta multiplier, we get 8.5x10^21. The rest is simple, but lets also put into perspective how much stronger Goku and Vegeta are after the Universal Survival Saga. This number may not be accurate to how much raw power SSJB Gogeta has during Dragon Ball Super: Broly. However, if we take into consideration that after Goku fought at SSJG, his SSJ form maintained a similar, if not, equal power level to SSJG, we might be able gauge how much Goku’s base form gained as a result of fighting at MUI. I’ll leave that part to you guys. We can also assume that Vegeta is the same way, thus allowing us to gauge how strong Vegeta became in his base form after fighting at SSJBE. Again, I’ll leave that to you guys. Take those numbers and apply the numbers that I’ve set up here for the Gogeta Blue multiplier. Your result will most likely lead to the conclusion that Gogeta Blue is stronger than MUI Goku. One last piece of evidence is that Goku mentioned to Broly a few things before leaving, those being that Broly may be stronger than Beerus, which Goku did not say to Jiren. Furthermore, Goku stated that he was sure that he was reaching the limit of his power until Broly came along, which already implies that Broly is stronger than MUI if we assume that Goku was including the MUI boost in that “limit”. That said, the fact that Gogeta managed to nonchalantly beat Broly until the Saiyan was but an inch from death(seeing as how Gogeta smiled and effortlessly dodged his was through the entire fight after reaching Blue), we can see how Gogeta Blue makes MUI pale in comparison to its majesty. I do hope that sufficiently explains things and helps everyone understand the scale of things. Have a nice day and, please...dont kill me or each other over this information. Im just theorizing based on information from the series.

      I couldn't read any further after you said that fusion is only 20X more powerful. That is not true at all. If we take into account Broly's forms and Goku and Vegeta's forms, then we can tell that it is higher than this. For Broly to match Vegeta's Super Saiyan form while Broly was in his base, that tells us alot. Skip ahead to where Broly uses Wrathful state and then Super Saiyan, he would have grown 500X stronger. Gogeta fought him in Super Saiyan and was about a match again until Broly went Green and Gogeta had to use Blue. This tells us that fusion is at least 500X stronger than base. AT LEAST 500X. Vegito has to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku while in base too. Don't forget that Vegito handed Zamasu his butt. Vegito was playing with him just as Goku and Vegeta's fusions always seem to do. Their time ran out unexpectedly and Zamasu Survived it. He didn't stalemate it. Goku went SSB Kaioken X20 against Zamasu and fought so hard that his arms went limp and still couldn't beat Zamasu. Vegito had Zamasu's face in the dirt. Goku got his ams broke. There is clearly a difference in power.

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    • I'd just like to say that I watched through the anime multiple times. And allow me to at least say that we saw Goku holding his own against Zamasu and Goku Black for a while, but then we saw a massive magnification in their power that completely turned the tides of it. Fused Zamasu was still fighting back hard and Vegito seemed to only piss off Zamasu even more, although he did do substantial damage, but that still doesn't nullify the fact that Fused Zamasu may not have been going all out, as he had the same egotistical situation as Frieza. In fact, I'd wager that if Frieza actually met up with Zamasu, they'd get along easily. In fact, I'm fairly certain Zamasu himself said it would be disgraceful to even consider wasting his full power on the two. Though my memory could be off. I heavily believe that Fused Zamasu refused to live with the idea that he used full power on mere mortals and simply decided not to. As for the Jiren and Goku battle stuff from the previous guy, I watched over multiple times, and Goku started holding his own and fighting back before even mastering Ultra Instinct, and eventually, he equalled Jiren's power, and while Jiren did have slightly more ATTACK power, Goku had far greater control and was exponentially more skilled while using Ultra Instinct, ranking him above Jiren easily, although Jiren was starting to get desperate since this was really the first time anyone had ever pushed him so far ever since he managed to power up past most deities, so he was greatly shocked. Anyway, back to the Gogeta matter. I was basing the multiplier off of the simple fact of what he said to Golden Frieza. "Our power is not just added together. It is significantly magnified." I didn't think it would even be reasonable to go too far with it when you think about just how much more powerful they'd be if the multiplier were that high. Even using a tiny percentage of their power would most likely result in the Earth's erasure if the multiplier of fusion was 500x. Furthermore, he wouldn't have even needed to use SSJB if the multiplier of a normal fusion were 500x. I'd wager he could have easily done it at SSJG or SSJ3 (Though 3 would be a bit of a stretch...and ssj3 stood no chance against Beerus, and yet G managed to force Beerus to use 20% of his power.) if the number was that high. Moreover, we should consider that Vegeta's pride was mixed in, so if Gogeta took that greatly, they weren't holding back much. They may not have been bruised or battered, but this doesn't necessarily mean they were too powerful to hurt. Goku dodged Jiren fairly easily when at Ultra Instinct alone. They could have been dodging Broly faster than he could dish out attacks and may have even gone as far as seeing them coming before they even happened. They were stronger than Jiren, who literally saw through a Time Skip. It's not entirely impossible. Still, Akirya didn't give us a whole lot to go off of. I did say my facts may not even be that accurate. Don't snap at my ankles because I slipped up on a few things. Does that explain a little better? There's too many details to be entirely accurate, and you didn't exactly say the Ultra Instinct stuff was inaccurate. I do agree that Gogeta was most likely more powerful than I gave him credit for, but I don't know how high to rank them without going overboard. It would be like two children playing pretend and then always one upping each other by saying they had an invincible shield, only to have the other say they had a weapon that broke that, and once again going back to the other saying that he suddenly has something stronger than that, and then so on and so forth. It would be ridiculous. At least Akirya explains things somewhat properly, but I imagine that the grey area he left was for fans to speculate so as not to lose interest. 

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    • ...So, when Vegeta in SSJ (50X) was matched by base Broly who was in base. Broly grows up to Ikari which is 10X base and then multiplys that by Super Saiyan (50X) which equals 500X stronger than Vegeta's Super Saiyan. Gogeta Super Saiyan would have had to at least match this. What about when SSJ2 Goku was equal to Kale and Caulifla, and then Kefla pushed him to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X 20. Super Saiyan 2 to Super Saiyan Blue is incredible. Then multiply that by Kaioken X20. I just don't understand where you got it from. I'm not saying it's stupid or anything, I just want to know how it can be possible when so much evidence points the opposite way.

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    • Need I remind you how drained Goku was when they decided to fuse? Goku had already fought Jiren. He was still recovering and barely managed to reach Blue. Even if he was still recovering mid-combat at a somewhat rapid rate, his body hadn't yet fully restored itself from his fight at Ultra Instinct Omen with Jiren. But again, I do agree Gogeta was probably far more powerful than I gave him credit for. I just don't know where to rank him without overdoing it. The numbers are all too confusing, especially when knowing that Saiyan Saga Vegeta's power level of 27,000 was supposedly already enough to destroy the Earth. I'd rather not give a character an overly powerful rating that could destroy the earth just from blinking because I went too high, but I also don't want to rank them too low because then it would be pointless to even consider it a useful form if the multiplier ends up lower than what each individual can reach on their own.

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    • Oh, and let's not forget that Goku needed to reserve strength for when he went up against Jiren again. He knew that if he didn't pace himself, he'd ultimately fall short and would be eliminated by Jiren during a second battle. Even Ultra Instinct can't bury that concern.

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    • Does that help or am I still talking crazy? Not being a smart-alec, just legit wondering. Filling in grey areas isn't my strongsuit.

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    • Well, I beieve you have a point. In some scan or interview or some info I recieved second hand, Toriyama stated that fusion is A X B = C (Or Goku's PL times Vegeta's PL= Gogeta/Vegito's PL.) Now I don't know if I beleive that it's Goku times Vegeta. Vados said that fusion is now the two of them added together and then multiplied by tens of times. Gogeta, as you said above, agrees with this when he said that "they're not just added together, but significantly magnified." I just feel that Fusion has to be stronger than 20X, elsewise Broly could have been easily handled by Super Saiyan Blue evolved, or Kaioken X20 Blue. With Broly having grown so fast and multiplied Super Saiyan's established multiplier of 50 by Oozaru's 10X, he would have at least been 500X base. For Gogeta to match that in Super Saiyan form, he would have had to be 500X stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta. Goku + Vegeta X 200-300X. I think that seems accurate. Goku and Vegeta are already Universe Busters, but they've started to learn how to control the excess energy. I understand that we don't want to think that Gogeta is TOO powerful, but his punch (while only in Super Saiyan) was enough to tear a whole in the fabric of space and time to send him and Broly to another dimension. Super Saiyan Blue is OP. Besides, Dragon Ball doesn't keep with real world ideas of power. During the Namek saga of Z, Cui (Vegeta's self appointed rival) claimed that Vegeta had only ever been able to reach 18,000 PL (I assume this is without Oozaru.) Vegeta in the Saiyan saga was able to destroy Planet Arlia with 2 fingers and no straining. If Shotgun Framer is at 5, then only 3600 Shotgun Farmers punching the earth at full power could destroy it. You see what I mean? They sort of change what is and isn't planet, solar system, galaxy, universe, etc. busting as they go so as to not over power or under power something. With Super Saiyan Blue Goku being 50X greater than Super Saiyan god, and Gohan Potential Unleashed to match it after only about maybe a year of Piccolo training from his weakened Resurrection F state makes no sense. After all, Gohan at his peak in Z matched Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Now he matches a form that is supposedly trillions of times stronger. Heh. People ave the gumption to tell me that Super Saiyan 4 (that is Potential Unleashed X 10) can't stand a chance against a Super Saiyan god. PLs change and so do the requirements for certain feats. Rage Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It's just whatever Toriyama feels like writing at the time.

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    • Fusion is A+B multiplied by "tens of times" the highest that can be is x1,000.

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    • SS4 is essentially SS3, Great Ape, and Potential Unleashed all in one. It's far, far more powerful than people think it is.

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    • FlatZone wrote: SS4 is essentially SS3, Great Ape, and Potential Unleashed all in one. It's far, far more powerful than people think it is.

      Unless he hits a building

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