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  • If Goku is truly a moral being, it is his responsibility to hunt down Zeno and kill him.

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    • Zeno will wipe out the entire mutliverse in one shot if he tries, including him. Litterally all of existance, the living and the other world are his to bend to his will. Those that are immortal like Zamasu were will be wiped out peramenntly.

      Every single being that existed, exists and will ever exist are nothing more then toys to Zeno. He has the power to remove moraility, compisition, Good and Evil and even eternal life by litterally erasing it all.

      Also don't say "bastard" as that is against the rules here.

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    • Okay, one, how do you even expect Goku to kill Zeno? No, seriously, how?

      Secondly, it's clear that Zeno isn't evil per se. He's just too childish and immature to realize what he's doing. Like any child, only Zeno is one that is nigh-omnipotent on top of that. Honestly, things could be a lot worse if Zeno was truly evil.

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    • What Goku (and someone else) need to do is potara fuse with zen'o and blast himself.

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    • Wouldn't do anything. 

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    • Do you have any proof at all that Zen'o can't destroy himself?

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    • Do you have any proof that he can? Even when he erased an entire timeline he himself was in, he still was the only thing unharmed in a massive void.

      Besides, you'd still have to get to the point of fusing, and the resulting Fusion must still be willing to kill itself.

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    • Goku needs to Potara fuse with Toriyama.

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    • Wish to erase Zeno with the Super Dragon Balls.

      Actually, they'll probably just wish all the universes back and convince Zeno that mass-genocide is wrong.

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    • There have been 4 opputunities for a wish to kill Zeno to be granted. 1 from Beerus when he won the tournament  of destroyers and 3 from Zamasu. Both of them can speak the language of the gods to say that wish but they refused to because either A: They believe it won't work or B: They didn't do it out of respect.

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    • Timjer wrote:
      Okay, one, how do you even expect Goku to kill Zeno? No, seriously, how?

      Secondly, it's clear that Zeno isn't evil per se. He's just too childish and immature to realize what he's doing. Like any child, only Zeno is one that is nigh-omnipotent on top of that. Honestly, things could be a lot worse if Zeno was truly evil.

      I'm pretty sure he got his current position by inheritance because having a naive child who hands the fate of the entire multiverse and previously destroyed 6 universes (with angels included) only because he was in a bad mood seems really irresponsible and dangerous.

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    • Or he's always existed and will always exist and never grow.

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    • Wasn't it a rule of thumb that the dragon balls only have the power of its creator.. So if there is a set of zeno dragonballs. Can he be wished away? XD?

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    • F*** that, Zeno should be killed because he is the most annoying, most obnoxious, high voiced, little child i have ever had the displeasure of looking at or listening to. Goku, kill Zeno, IDC how you do it, maybe unleash the full potential of your omen form and surpass him, maybe just punt the f***er into a pit of death.

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    • The full potential of his omen form, fused with Zalama, Jiren, all the gods of destructions and angels, all of that would still be nowhere near enough power to injure Zen'o

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    • NOT THE POINT, THE POINT IS THAT ZENO NEEDS TO DIE

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    • Good luck with that.

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    • Fankid wrote:
      NOT THE POINT, THE POINT IS THAT ZENO NEEDS TO DIE

      Yeah go ask Tori-bot if he'll do the job. But who knows where he is in Super.

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    • ToribotMoney
      On money 
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    • There's only one thing i know that Zeno is not invulnerable to: The multiverse theory style timetravel of Dragonball that enables to be more then one of him.

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    • Googologist77 wrote:
      If Goku is truly a moral being, it is his responsibility to hunt down Zeno and kill him.

      1.Pecking order

      2.I'll say bro, the only bastard that is evil and needs to die is Grand Priest i bet he will start a rebelion againts Zeno sama. Who the fudge cares if he's a godly/religional being, i don't like the look at his face, lord Zeno might be gay for erasing Kale. Caulifla and Helles, but Grand Priest makes Baby and Freeza look cute in comprassion

      .........................

      Why the fudge am i responding to a topic about the non canon DB "Super"?!

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    • How does Zen'o erasing a universe that lost a tournament make him a person who loves his own gender? Could you maybe try not being an asshole?

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    • Super Dragon Balls can wish anything to happen. So simply wish all Zeno from all timelines and dimensions out of existence.

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      Super Dragon Balls can wish anything to happen. So simply wish all Zeno from all timelines and dimensions out of existence.

      And as i said

      0551E80Y wrote:
      There have been 4 opportunities for a wish to kill Zeno to be granted. 1 from Beerus when he won the tournament of destroyers and 3 from Zamasu. Both of them can speak the language of the gods to say that wish but they refused to because either A: They believe it won't work or B: They didn't do it out of respect.

      Zamasu, especially could have done that since he made himself an enemy of Zeno. By going around killing his subordinates to usurp theirs and his position as judges on the universes and wrecked the balance of Creation and Destruction entirely. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      How does Zen'o erasing a universe that lost a tournament make him a person who loves his own gender?

      Well he could spare the girls thought

      Also he likes Goku, i geuss there's a special place in his heart for him

      Also it's a japanese kids anime, go figure

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    • No its just plot. Zeno can be wish away, they just didn't because he was needed to kill immortal Zamasu.

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    • Shame they are not gonna get rid of that autistic kid who thinks ending planets, universes and life is a game.

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      No its just plot. Zeno can be wish away, they just didn't because he was needed to kill immortal Zamasu.

      That's a lazy answer. Try give an 'In-Universe' Explanation.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Shame they are not gonna get rid of that autistic kid who thinks ending planets, universes and life is a game.

      How about Goku and Gohan? ;)

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    • Because the dragon probably can't kill the omniking.

      And no, there's no reason at all for him to spare the girls. He has the mind of a kid, he's not attracted to any of them. Also, sparing the girls would be sexist.

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    • Scar800's description of Zeno reminds me of Little Pete from the Gone books.

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      Shame they are not gonna get rid of that autistic kid who thinks ending planets, universes and life is a game.
      How about Goku and Gohan? ;)

      Except that none of them are gonna wake up one day and say "hey dad, let's destroy tons of planets and kill innocent people" ;)

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    • If not wish them away it is shown that they they can be controlled with a wish from the super dragon balls, Frieza can just get the wish and have them erase each other and the grand priest along with the angels. Then Frieza can control the Gods of Destruction to his will, or simply have them erased too before hand. 

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      BH Ouji wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      Shame they are not gonna get rid of that autistic kid who thinks ending planets, universes and life is a game.
      How about Goku and Gohan? ;)
      Except that none of them are gonna wake up one day and say "hey dad, let's destroy tons of planets and kill innocent people" ;)

      You do realise that it's becuase of Goku: he died, Jheese sent for Ginyu, he got his body stolen, he died again, Buu killed all of the population, Gohan became mystic

      Also why do i care? DBS is non canon and never was, Dragon Ball died in 1995, gameover

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      BH Ouji wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      Shame they are not gonna get rid of that autistic kid who thinks ending planets, universes and life is a game.
      How about Goku and Gohan? ;)
      Except that none of them are gonna wake up one day and say "hey dad, let's destroy tons of planets and kill innocent people" ;)
      You do realise that it's becuase of Goku: he died, Jheese sent for Ginyu, he got his body stolen, he died again, Buu killed all of the population, Gohan became mystic

      Also why do i care? DBS is non canon and never was, Dragon Ball died in 1995, gameover

      So, I guess that means every video game and movie after 1995 doesn't exist in your head.

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      DBGT is non canon and never was.

      You should really learn to proofread, don't worry, I fixed it.

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      DBS is non canon and never was

      I believe what you tried to say is GT, repeat after me G T. There we go.


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    • Fankid
      Fankid removed this reply because:
      fire starter post
      06:14, December 30, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • @Skar800 Do I see Katopesla on your avatar? I can see that you're a man of culture as well....

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:
      BH Ouji wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      BH Ouji wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      Shame they are not gonna get rid of that autistic kid who thinks ending planets, universes and life is a game.
      How about Goku and Gohan? ;)
      Except that none of them are gonna wake up one day and say "hey dad, let's destroy tons of planets and kill innocent people" ;)
      You do realise that it's becuase of Goku: he died, Jheese sent for Ginyu, he got his body stolen, he died again, Buu killed all of the population, Gohan became mystic
      Also why do i care? DBS is non canon and never was, Dragon Ball died in 1995, gameover
      So, I guess that means every video game and movie after 1995 doesn't exist in your head.

      I meant in animation buddy

      And yeah i meant the manga

      GT is cool but it was never canon

      @nervousshipper

      I'll take the non canon GT over the non canon Super anyday ;)

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    • Too bad your only choice is between the non canon GT and the Canon Super.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Too bad your only choice is between the non canon GT and the equally non canon Super.

      FTFY.

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    • You broke it! J'accuse!

      Edit: It was so much sadder when it happened to Estelle Ghetty, but I still hope for the best for you, Blaze.

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    • GT is non canon. When will people stop crying a river and get over it?

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      GT is non canon. When will people stop crying a river and get over it?

      About the same time you stop crying about Super being non-canon.

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    • The difference is that Super is canon and you have no real criteria for excluding it. GT isn't because it has no manga, was not written or overseen by the creator, and was created after the creator ended the series. It's Toei fan fiction, and nothing you say or do or think will ever change that. No matter how you try to twist my words.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      The difference is that Super is canon and you have no real criteria for excluding it. GT isn't because it has no manga, was not written or overseen by the creator, and was created after the creator ended the series. It's Toei fan fiction, and nothing you say or do or think will ever change that. No matter how you try to twist my words.

      I already explained to you why your statement is incomplete and irrelevant. You simply refuse to accept it because you've got in your head that something you don't like being "canon" is somehow bad. A lot of comic book elitists are like that.

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    • How is accuracy irrelevant?

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    • Hah hah ha! Well child, if you know any sort of thing whatsoever, then you'd know that the parts of the story that apply to the true DB story has to be to canon. And I'm very sorry to say that the movies AREN'T. 

      Get shut up from your president. <3

      Cabba Frieza
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    • Look, the main reason why people say Super is canon is because it's the current canon. It's ongoing and therefore still subjectable to change as well as what Toriyama and Toei is prioritising.

      GT was canon back in the day, before newer canon was introduced and contradicted it.

      For all we know something else could come along with the future and retcon Super and take over with new canonicity, but so long as it's ongoing then it's the canon the creators have given priority to.

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    • Mmhmm

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    • ThePresidentTrump wrote:
      Hah hah ha! Well child, if you know any sort of thing whatsoever, then you'd know that the parts of the story that apply to the true DB story has to be to canon. And I'm very sorry to say that the movies AREN'T. 

      Get shut up from your president. <3

      Cabba Frieza


      Make DB great again!

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    • DB was great until Trump came along. #NotMyPresident

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    • So Mr. Trump, how goes the peaceful negotiations with North Korea?

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    • The TRUTH about Dragon Ball GT - YouTube

      Ok, this guy has the information on GT, this might help, but it's not confirmation.

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    • Fankid wrote:
      The TRUTH about Dragon Ball GT - YouTube

      Ok, this guy has the information on GT, this settles the debate, GT is not canon, for now.

      "This is not about canon or non canon or any of that. This is about clearing up the truth whole telling you the entire TRUE story of GT's production history"

      -Geekdom101 (video creator/channel owner)

      Tip: If you're gonna lie, at least make sure you can't get caught within less than 2 seconds.

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    • He directly brings up author statements and evidence, and says it might be an alternate time line at one point. Anyway, i'll edit the comment above, saying maybe this might help.

      Tip: Watch how he talks about the canon at certain points, 8:48 and at 9:08 he says it's the continuation of the anime.

      "If you're gonna lie, at least make sure you can't get caught within less than 2 seconds" - Person who should take their own advice.

      Note that he said that he's not talking about canon or non canon, he didn't adress it as such (well he did, however, that does not devalue the arguement, as he did both of these examples), but showed points of it being in a different continuity.

      Edit: Found it in the comment section, so it wasn't part of the video, i didn't know about that at first, you should have provided that information.

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    • Fankid
      Fankid removed this reply because:
      gg
      10:53, December 31, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • NervousShipper wrote:
      the Canon Super.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

      You Super tards are like tsufuls, you need to go the way of the humans

      @QuakingStar

      Of course it's non canon (what they did to Pan is unforgiveable), we're talking about Super being non canon

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    • Toriyama said quite clearly that Super is a part of and a continuation of the main story. In Japan that is the equivalent of Canon. Super is indeed canon.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      DB was great until Trump came along. #NotMyPresident

      Super was around before Trump was president. Besides, he doesn't have anything to do with DB.

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    • So you just skipped to the bottom of the topic.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      So you just skipped to the bottom of the topic.

      No and you should try to use the "quote" button when you're replying to someone. Otherwise, it will lead to confusion.

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    • Yeah, and then we get 13 quotes in the same post.

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    • Super is canon right now, GT is not, and it's not due to contradictions, it's due to the story making Super the current canon.

      Original manga, Original anime, GT, Kai, etc - NON Canon, unless any of them fit into Super (I'd go for Kai).

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    • Man, canon in DB is a never-ending argument until Toei ends Super. Well, not going to participate today, New Years Eve and all, have Happy New Year guys!

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    • Happy New Years as well.

      I'm glad that you get what i meant.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      The difference is that Super is canon and you have no real criteria for excluding it. GT isn't because it has no manga, was not written or overseen by the creator, and was created after the creator ended the series. It's Toei fan fiction, and nothing you say or do or think will ever change that. No matter how you try to twist my words.

      Ya stupid liberal. GTFO.

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    • Oh go push your "big" button with your tiny hand, drumpf.

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    • Enough of this political s***, it'll just make this a fire starter thread.

      We should get back to the Zeno being evil debate.

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    • Zeno has so much power that he sees gods as bugs, who in turn see Goku during the battle of gods as bugs, who makes non godly z fighters look like bacteria, who make frieza soldiers as bugs, who see humans as bugs. Basically his power goes to his head, he's at the top of the Multiversal chain, capable of turning 12 macrocosms into nothing (1 macrocosm = heaven, hell, and the universe, which are all universal in size, plus the kai realm, which is 0.3 universes, 3.3 universes in total. So he'd turn 39.6 universes into nothing).

      Zeno is malevolent, but he doesn't really know right from wrong, it's like people who are insane, they are too deranged to know how bad their actions are.

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    • Gotta love it when fans pull numbers out of their asses...

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    • I didn't, there is a guide for it, i'll find it.

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    • Fankid
      Fankid removed this reply because:
      not needed
      12:05, January 4, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • 122.png (1118×279)

      Imgur: The magic of the Internet

      Gotta love it when you talk out your ass.

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    • Blaziken is one of those supposed fans who never even checked the actual facts. Don't sweat him.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Oh go push your "big" button with your tiny hand, drumpf.

      Or read the full story before commenting, liberoaf.

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      Blaziken is one of those supposed fans who never even checked the actual facts. Don't sweat him.

      If you've read and memorized every single Dragon Ball-related document that has ever been released, I pity you.

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    • LMAO guy, you need to chill.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: LMAO guy, you need to chill.

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    • @blaze I know you takes it in jest, you’ve told shipper and all that. I need to stop being ogre serious.

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    • Timjer wrote: Okay, one, how do you even expect Goku to kill Zeno? No, seriously, how?

      Secondly, it's clear that Zeno isn't evil per se. He's just too childish and immature to realize what he's doing. Like any child, only Zeno is one that is nigh-omnipotent on top of that. Honestly, things could be a lot worse if Zeno was truly evil.

      Yeah, I'm sorry, but I fail to buy the whole "he's too childish and immature to realize what he's doing." Do I really have to remind everyone that this was the same guy (technically, anyway) who erased Infinite Zamasu at least in part out of disgust for what the latter did to the Future Timeline? That points to him being VERY much aware of what he's doing. Same goes for his erasing Froze on the spot when he tried to attack Frieza from the stands.

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    • The Mafuba could very well defeat zeno by imprisoning him, so he's incapicated as long as he stays trapped so that he's unable to do anything include erase. However i am not sure if the technique is able to hold him with a seal on the container and it only works as long as the container is not opened. Also if he does escape, his first act is to erase everything.

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    • Imagine if Zeno knows the Evil Containment Wave Reflection Evil Containment Wave Reflection | Dragon Ball Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia

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    • Zeno isn't a fighter. So there's a good chance he doesn't.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: Zeno isn't a fighter. So there's a good chance he doesn't.

      Maybe not, but on the other hand, I'm pretty sure with his powers that he'd be able to utilize some form of defense against such an ability.

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    • Containing someone with multiversal levels of power can't be easy. I have doubts that any mortals could attempt this.

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    • What if he can erase an attack.

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    • How would he do that?

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    • His erase ability, it makes some sense, as he erased Frost who was holding an energy attack

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    • Don't see how he could erase an attack since more then one person knows it. At least 4 people on team universe 7 know it 

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    • I mean when they use it against him.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      The Mafuba could very well defeat zeno by imprisoning him, so he's incapicated as long as he stays trapped so that he's unable to do anything include erase. However i am not sure if the technique is able to hold him with a seal on the container and it only works as long as the container is not opened. Also if he does escape, his first act is to erase everything.

      Well Mafuba was shown to be extremely and I mean extremely useful on many instances, especially against foes like inmortal Zamasu but when it comes to Zeno, we're talking about a being that can dissapear an entire timeline and the multiverse in a matter of seconds. It takes some time to seal the victim into the container, I think enough for Zeno to erase either the container, the user or even both to escape.

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    • Just saying it's a posibility. 

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    • Fankid
      Fankid removed this reply because:
      gg
      06:27, January 6, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Let's put it at unsure, as we do not know what really happens after they are sealed. BTW, look that this .

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    • It's like they're inside a pokeball.

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    • Fankid wrote:
      Super is canon right now

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

      Ontopic

      Nah Lord Zeno is not evil, he's like Galactus of DB

      As for Grand priest, well let this art speak my feelings for him

      https://bh-ouji.deviantart.com/art/GOHAN-BLANCO-VS-EL-GRANDE-PADRE-715491406

      I hope Lord Zenos erase him and his kids

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    • Galactus wishes he was a fraction of Zeno's power. Zeno is more closer to the Living Tribunal.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Galactus wishes he was a fraction of Lord Zeno's power.

      But not even the ol powerful SSJ4 Gogeta can beat him, thus Galatus is close to Lord Zeno in power

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    • Puhleaze, a hungry Galactus can get beaten by all of the Earths heroes combined against him. Gogeta would beat him easily so long as he doesn't screw around and give Galactus time to react.

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    • There are like 7 beings more powerful than Galactus in Marvel. Galactus' only reason for being is to contain Abraxas.

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      Fankid wrote:
      Super is canon right now
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

      Ontopic

      Nah Lord Zeno is not evil, he's like Galactus of DB

      As for Grand priest, well let this art speak my feelings for him

      https://bh-ouji.deviantart.com/art/GOHAN-BLANCO-VS-EL-GRANDE-PADRE-715491406

      I hope Lord Zenos erase him and his kids

      Last I checked, Galactus was an evil being in the Marvel universe. HE'S THE DEVOURER OF WORLDS! 

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    • Then you haven't checked in 50 years. What Galactus does is necessary.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Then you haven't checked in 50 years. What Galactus does is necessary.

      Same goes for Zeno.

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    • If it were necessary, those universes wouldn't have existed to begin with.

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    • Galactus is more neutral than evil. He's basically a force of nature that consumes without prejudice.

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    • Zeno is technically the Arc Villain. Everyone in the tournament is just pawns on a game board for his amusement. Children or the Childminded can be the worse villains because they don't realize the consequence of their actions.

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    • Pawns would imply Zeno is controlling or manipulating them, he doesn't have the mental capacity for that.

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    • Tiger2025 wrote: Zeno is technically the Arc Villain. Everyone in the tournament is just pawns on a game board for his amusement. Children or the Childminded can be the worse villains because they don't realize the consequence of their actions.

      Actually, I doubt that he doesn't realize the consequences of his actions. If he truly didn't, he'd be closer to horrified rather than laughing his head off like some maniac, like what happened when Broadway shot Elisa Maza. And besides, he erased Zamasu in large part because he was disgusted with the latter's Zero Mortals Plan (implied in the anime and confirmed in the manga even before the latter went Infinite Zamasu on everyone). Not to mention his erasure of Frost.

      No, he definitely knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Same deal with the manga version of the scene which makes explicitly clear that he was indeed the one who planned for the whole thing, and if anything also gave the very chilling implication that he erased the other six universes for the same reason this whole thing existed:

      https://imgur.com/a/nBhmf

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    • It's been a while since "is Zeno evil" had been brought up. The tournament is close to ending. We'll know once and for all if he's evil when the last episode airs.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: It's been a while since "is Zeno evil" had been brought up. The tournament is close to ending. We'll know once and for all if he's evil when the last episode airs.

      Well, this IS the name of the topic.

      And quite frankly, I think the manga panels I linked you to earlier should have been a pretty big hint that he is evil (if anything, Grand Priest was surprised at what they were planning).

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    • I hate Zeno.

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    • I bet you Zen'o is a member of the same race as Tarble's wife, but from a different universe.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Well, this IS the name of the topic.

      And quite frankly, I think the manga panels I linked you to earlier should have been a pretty big hint that he is evil (if anything, Grand Priest was surprised at what they were planning).

      What I'm saying is, you won't ever convince me and I won't ever convince you. So let's just wait for the final answer.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Tiger2025 wrote: Zeno is technically the Arc Villain. Everyone in the tournament is just pawns on a game board for his amusement. Children or the Childminded can be the worse villains because they don't realize the consequence of their actions.

      Actually, I doubt that he doesn't realize the consequences of his actions. If he truly didn't, he'd be closer to horrified rather than laughing his head off like some maniac, like what happened when Broadway shot Elisa Maza. And besides, he erased Zamasu in large part because he was disgusted with the latter's Zero Mortals Plan (implied in the anime and confirmed in the manga even before the latter went Infinite Zamasu on everyone). Not to mention his erasure of Frost.

      No, he definitely knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Same deal with the manga version of the scene which makes explicitly clear that he was indeed the one who planned for the whole thing, and if anything also gave the very chilling implication that he erased the other six universes for the same reason this whole thing existed:

      https://imgur.com/a/nBhmf

      This proves Zeno is psychotic and lazy. What I was pointing to is he does not realize what a Universe is worth all he sees are pieces on a chessboard. Zeno is evil, but he only sees everything he does as a game that he continues to make more and simpler until there is nothing.

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    • This whole thing is a children's game to him. You know who the real villain is? Zeno's irresponsible parents leaving their 4 quadrillion year old son in charge of running the multiverse.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: This whole thing is a children's game to him. You know who the real villain is? Zeno's irresponsible parents leaving their 4 quadrillion year old son in charge of running the multiverse.

      First of all, there's literally NOTHING indicating he even had parents. For all we know, he existed since time immemoriam. Maybe if he directly ALLUDED to having at least one parent like Frieza did when mentioning Goku's the first person in a while to make him dust off after a fight, I'd buy his having parents, but right now, considering he actually makes Old Kai seem like a youngster, the only thing we do know is that he's the ruler of the universe, and most likely predated even Majin Buu.

      Second of all, Cell ALSO viewed his actions as being nothing more than a game as well, hence his creating the Cell Games. That didn't excuse him from being a monster, and if it didn't excuse Cell (who most certainly was pure of heart based on his claim of being able to generate the Spirit Bomb in the manga and the anime), it certainly doesn't excuse Zeno. Same goes for Kid Buu, who also viewed everything as a game, and he seemed to have at least enough purity of heart to not only catch, but outright deflect the Spirit Bomb, which according to Goku literally requires a pure heart when he had Gohan do something similar after Yajirobe spoiled the attempt at hitting Vegeta with the Spirit Bomb.

      And third of all, considering how Zeno specifically erased Infinite Zamasu in part out of disgust for what the latter did, not to mention erased Froze while the latter tried to attack Frieza from the stands, it's pretty obvious that, unlike Majin Buu, Zeno DOES fully comprehend the nature of his actions and thus DOES know morality and the difference between right and wrong.

      Tiger2025 wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Tiger2025 wrote: Zeno is technically the Arc Villain. Everyone in the tournament is just pawns on a game board for his amusement. Children or the Childminded can be the worse villains because they don't realize the consequence of their actions.

      Actually, I doubt that he doesn't realize the consequences of his actions. If he truly didn't, he'd be closer to horrified rather than laughing his head off like some maniac, like what happened when Broadway shot Elisa Maza. And besides, he erased Zamasu in large part because he was disgusted with the latter's Zero Mortals Plan (implied in the anime and confirmed in the manga even before the latter went Infinite Zamasu on everyone). Not to mention his erasure of Frost.

      No, he definitely knew EXACTLY what he was doing. Same deal with the manga version of the scene which makes explicitly clear that he was indeed the one who planned for the whole thing, and if anything also gave the very chilling implication that he erased the other six universes for the same reason this whole thing existed:

      https://imgur.com/a/nBhmf

      This proves Zeno is psychotic and lazy. What I was pointing to is he does not realize what a Universe is worth all he sees are pieces on a chessboard. Zeno is evil, but he only sees everything he does as a game that he continues to make more and simpler until there is nothing.

      Problem is, he has more morals than Majin Buu did, who literally didn't even conceptualize that killing was wrong due to Bibidi's influence, while Zeno has enough awareness that killing people is indeed very much wrong based on how he disapproved of Zamasu's Zero Mortals Plan and erased Infinite Zamasu on the spot in part due to disgust at his actions (and in the manga, him not supporting it was made more clear when Future Zamasu deeply considered getting the heck out of dodge in case Zeno found out about it). And don't get me started on what he did to Froze when the latter tried to attack Frieza on the stand.

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    • @Weedle

      I'm pretty sure Zeno considered him "annoying" not that he was disgusted at him. I'd be mildly upset too if the sky turned dark green, had equally dark green faces and started laughing at me.

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    • Frost being erased because he violated the rule of not allowed to attack once you've dropped out, doesn't mean that Zeno has morals. It could be because he thought Frost was going to ruin his fun of watching the tournament of power, by breaking the rules he placed for it. It's still for his entertainment.

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    • @055 ^

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    • TurboTriangle601 wrote: @Weedle

      I'm pretty sure Zeno considered him "annoying" not that he was disgusted at him. I'd be mildly upset too if the sky turned dark green, had equally dark green faces and started laughing at me.

      True, but the very first thing he said upon witnessing it was, and I quote, "A world like this... A world like this must disappear!". And besides, based on what his personality section said, he clearly did it at least in part out of disgust for what Zamasu did, which DOES imply morals. Don't believe me? Read this: "In Future Zeno's first appearance, he was shown to be very serious and decided to wipe out the whole world of Future Trunks' timeline out of pure disgust for the monstrous actions of Zamasu, and the fact that he found his constant laugh very annoying."

      http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Future_Zeno#Personality

      Emphasis mine.

      0551E80Y wrote: Frost being erased because he violated the rule of not allowed to attack once you've dropped out, doesn't mean that Zeno has morals. It could be because he thought Frost was going to ruin his fun of watching the tournament of power, by breaking the rules he placed for it. It's still for his entertainment.

      Isn't the entire POINT of morality just a list of rules one is to obey? Besides, if I were Zeno, and I wanted my fun, I'd literally let Froze shoot Frieza simply because, hey, it's unexpected and a riot. You know, similar to this guy (and by that, I of course mean the Joker): https://youtu.be/kgW7pBKcU4k?t=142

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    • Morals were made to weigh the vauleness of your characteristics and determination of where your soul will be placed once your body expires. Zeno is apparently above that. 

      It's also that Zeno is rather civil about it. He is familar with the customs of a gladiator match in a fight to the death surrounded by a crowd to watch for enjoyment.

      In his mind. Once you're off the arena, you had your chance of doing whatever you can of saving your universe and yourself. All you can do is watch, and he will enforce that should someone try to challenge it. By erasing the conflict (Litterally)

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: Morals were made to weigh the vauleness of your characteristics and determination of where your soul will be placed once your body expires. Zeno is apparently above that. 

      It's also that Zeno is rather civil about it. He is familar with the customs of a gladiator match in a fight to the death surrounded by a crowd to watch for enjoyment.

      In his mind. Once you're off the arena, you had your chance of doing whatever you can of saving your universe and yourself. All you can do is watch, and he will enforce that should someone try to challenge it. By erasing the conflict (Litterally)

      Yeah, and the way to do that is by obeying rules. If, for example, God ordered you to take out the trash, to be moral, you obey him like a drone or else he'll send you to Hell. It's no different than a law system or a code of rules. And anyways, you saw that clip I showed you right? Well, have Zeno act like that, where no matter what happens, he got his laugh even if it is against his own survival or his own will.

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    • Zeno can't be placed in heaven or hell cos A. We don't know how old he is and if he's able to die, and B. he has the power to remove heaven and hell by erasing them. He already did it in future trunks' timeline. Therefore, he destroyed Future Goku's soul as well.

      These are Zeno's rules. He makes them and he enacts them.  He can choose to change them if he wants to, but only if it makes it more fun for him. But the top has a purpose of cleaning out the multiverse while leaving one participating Universe surviving. He had this intention when he made the tournament. That's his goal. And because of it, he will not change the rule of no attacking from outside the arena as that is basically the trash can for him, waiting to be emptied when a universe fully loses all it's fighters.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      First of all, there's literally NOTHING indicating he even had parents. For all we know, he existed since time immemoriam. Maybe if he directly ALLUDED to having at least one parent like Frieza did when mentioning Goku's the first person in a while to make him dust off after a fight, I'd buy his having parents, but right now, considering he actually makes Old Kai seem like a youngster, the only thing we do know is that he's the ruler of the universe, and most likely predated even Majin Buu.

      Second of all, Cell ALSO viewed his actions as being nothing more than a game as well, hence his creating the Cell Games. That didn't excuse him from being a monster, and if it didn't excuse Cell (who most certainly was pure of heart based on his claim of being able to generate the Spirit Bomb in the manga and the anime), it certainly doesn't excuse Zeno. Same goes for Kid Buu, who also viewed everything as a game, and he seemed to have at least enough purity of heart to not only catch, but outright deflect the Spirit Bomb, which according to Goku literally requires a pure heart when he had Gohan do something similar after Yajirobe spoiled the attempt at hitting Vegeta with the Spirit Bomb.

      And third of all, considering how Zeno specifically erased Infinite Zamasu in part out of disgust for what the latter did, not to mention erased Froze while the latter tried to attack Frieza from the stands, it's pretty obvious that, unlike Majin Buu, Zeno DOES fully comprehend the nature of his actions and thus DOES know morality and the difference between right and wrong.

      I'd do this one last time and one time only.

      There's no evidence of your claim that he existed from the beginning of time either. The reason I think he hasn't is, if he's been around for so long then he should have the wisdom and knowledge from being around since the beginning of time. But he doesn't, he's so dumb and doesn't know anything. Grand Priest has to keep telling him things about common sense. How can you be the divine creator of existence and not know anything?

      Wrong. First of all Cell could have easily been lying or bluffing, he has never been shown doing the Spirit Bomb in the anime. Second of all, even if he's pure it's clear he's a different kind of pure, he's pure evil. And Cell is a different case altogether. He's merely bored and wants entertainment, and thinks the best way to do that is fighting and killing. It's not that he fails to understand killing is wrong.

      Here's something for you to think over. You keep bringing up "Zeno erased Zamasu so he knows it's wrong" but also saying "therefore he's fully aware that killing universes is wrong and does so anyway". If he's aware that it's evil and enjoys doing evil things, then why did he erase Zamasu in the first place? By your logic, seeing Zamasu destroying the entire multiverse should be the ideal outcome for him and he should have just stood there laughing going "Ah, this is so fun!"

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    • @Stryzzar

      Zeno is probably just another Omni-King in a long line of them seeing as how he's been one for maybe 3,135,500,600 days (Roughly 8 million years) according to the King's Calendar i think which is definitely not the age of the universe, let along the multiverse and quite a small period of time for a god so of course he's gonna be inexperienced.

      Anyhow the rest of your points seem very reasonable.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      First of all, there's literally NOTHING indicating he even had parents. For all we know, he existed since time immemoriam. Maybe if he directly ALLUDED to having at least one parent like Frieza did when mentioning Goku's the first person in a while to make him dust off after a fight, I'd buy his having parents, but right now, considering he actually makes Old Kai seem like a youngster, the only thing we do know is that he's the ruler of the universe, and most likely predated even Majin Buu.

      Second of all, Cell ALSO viewed his actions as being nothing more than a game as well, hence his creating the Cell Games. That didn't excuse him from being a monster, and if it didn't excuse Cell (who most certainly was pure of heart based on his claim of being able to generate the Spirit Bomb in the manga and the anime), it certainly doesn't excuse Zeno. Same goes for Kid Buu, who also viewed everything as a game, and he seemed to have at least enough purity of heart to not only catch, but outright deflect the Spirit Bomb, which according to Goku literally requires a pure heart when he had Gohan do something similar after Yajirobe spoiled the attempt at hitting Vegeta with the Spirit Bomb.

      And third of all, considering how Zeno specifically erased Infinite Zamasu in part out of disgust for what the latter did, not to mention erased Froze while the latter tried to attack Frieza from the stands, it's pretty obvious that, unlike Majin Buu, Zeno DOES fully comprehend the nature of his actions and thus DOES know morality and the difference between right and wrong.

      I'd do this one last time and one time only.

      There's no evidence of your claim that he existed from the beginning of time either. The reason I think he hasn't is, if he's been around for so long then he should have the wisdom and knowledge from being around since the beginning of time. But he doesn't, he's so dumb and doesn't know anything. Grand Priest has to keep telling him things about common sense. How can you be the divine creator of existence and not know anything?

      Wrong. First of all Cell could have easily been lying or bluffing, he has never been shown doing the Spirit Bomb in the anime. Second of all, even if he's pure it's clear he's a different kind of pure, he's pure evil. And Cell is a different case altogether. He's merely bored and wants entertainment, and thinks the best way to do that is fighting and killing. It's not that he fails to understand killing is wrong.

      Here's something for you to think over. You keep bringing up "Zeno erased Zamasu so he knows it's wrong" but also saying "therefore he's fully aware that killing universes is wrong and does so anyway". If he's aware that it's evil and enjoys doing evil things, then why did he erase Zamasu in the first place? By your logic, seeing Zamasu destroying the entire multiverse should be the ideal outcome for him and he should have just stood there laughing going "Ah, this is so fun!"

      Don't be so sure. I know of plenty of religions outside the Judeo-Christian religion that had various entities being around since time immemoriam that clearly weren't wise at all, like the Greek and Roman deities, or more accurately, their predecessors the Titans.

      As far as Cell, it's still a purity of heart, and either way, the fact that Zeno does all of that AND is still pure shows he's if anything closer to Cell's "purity" rather than, say, Goku's purity (the latter actually gets outraged when innocents or anyone he cares for get harmed, something that Zeno clearly has no qualms about). And that's also why I cited Kid Buu, since while he may not necessarily form the Spirit Bomb, the fact that he could catch it and outright deflect it shows that, yes, he is indeed pure of heart (the episode where the Fusion Spirit Bomb was practiced made it VERY clear that someone who is pure of heart can touch the spirit bomb without being harmed).

      And as far as Zeno, because he's a hypocrite, happy? Don't forget there have been PLENTY of mythological Gods who punish mortals for stuff that they themselves do in a very hypocritical manner, heck, even their fellow gods at times (Hera got chained for trying to sleep with another guy with Zeus threatening to beat someone down to the ground if they try to free her, and this is despite Zeus being infamous for his dallyances with female mortals and in one case a male mortal). Heck, Zeus if anything is the perfect example of hypocritical gods, since one of his titles was the god of justice, ie, he creates and enforces laws, rules, morality even, and yet he violates more than half of the rules and laws and even morals that he makes and enforces on mortals and even gods to a certain extent.

      TurboTriangle601 wrote: @Stryzzar

      Zeno is probably just another Omni-King in a long line of them seeing as how he's been one for maybe 3,135,500,600 days (Roughly 8 million years) according to the King's Calendar i think which is definitely not the age of the universe, let along the multiverse and quite a small period of time for a god so of course he's gonna be inexperienced.

      Anyhow the rest of your points seem very reasonable.

      Technically, they never even alluded to another Omni-king, so I'm not so sure about that (we'd have gotten a hint by now if there was a prior one, and by a "hint", I mean more Zeno or at the very least Grand Priest referencing Zeno's bloodline.).

      0551E80Y wrote: Zeno can't be placed in heaven or hell cos A. We don't know how old he is and if he's able to die, and B. he has the power to remove heaven and hell by erasing them. He already did it in future trunks' timeline. Therefore, he destroyed Future Goku's soul as well.

      These are Zeno's rules. He makes them and he enacts them. He can choose to change them if he wants to, but only if it makes it more fun for him. But the top has a purpose of cleaning out the multiverse while leaving one participating Universe surviving. He had this intention when he made the tournament. That's his goal. And because of it, he will not change the rule of no attacking from outside the arena as that is basically the trash can for him, waiting to be emptied when a universe fully loses all it's fighters.

      Yeah, and I've seen plenty of other Gods make rules as well, yet nonetheless break them at their whim with no consequences to themselves. And besides, technically, the Joker had one rule, which is getting amused at any death and carnage that occurs by his hand or elsewhere, and yet even he didn't mind anything that would harm him, as that video demonstrated. Think of Zeno like the Joker and you'd get a good idea of what I'm trying to communicate.

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    • You can't use other series as evidence for this one.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: You can't use other series as evidence for this one.

      Why can't I? They largely follow the same routes of story development and character arcs and all of that. Many times, storytelling's actually predictable a few times. Besides, I cited roman mythology, which isn't "other series" but real world stuff.

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    • Yes, real world stuff, as in "not Dragonball related". Real world mythology is not evidence to the morality or multiversal design of a different fictional story.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Yes, real world stuff, as in "not Dragonball related". Real world mythology is not evidence to the morality or multiversal design of a different fictional story.

      Yeah, actually, it is. In case you have forgotten, there are a few times where names were adopted from real life (case in point: Bojack's race's name is Hera). Heck, there are quite a few instances of real world stuff being utilized in the series, and even the Gods of Destruction wear what resemble Egyptian uniforms. And let's not forget that General Blue was explicitly derived from a Sturmabteilung officer.

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    • If we're using other sources as evidence, then I'll point out that all christian imagery in Neon Genesis Evangelion was for aesthetic purposes. Christian mythology had no impact on the morality of the characters.

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    • And you shouldn't really compare Zeno to Joker, their characters, stances and ways are completely different. If you want to compare Zeno to a DC character. Try Mr Mxyzptlk. 

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: And you shouldn't really compare Zeno to Joker, their characters, stances and ways are completely different. If you want to compare Zeno to a DC character. Try Mr Mxyzptlk. 

      Considering Zeno clearly was having fun erasing universes and blowing up planets, I really doubt their characters, stances, and ways were all that different. If you want, I can definitely compare Zeno to Kefka.

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    • Of course they are. Joker does it for the comedy. Zen'o does it cause duuuuur

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    • Mxytzpitlik would do the same thing as well if it was fun to him. He has the power to turn Characters like Superman, even his one million counterpart. Gods like Zeus, Spectre and even the monitors to dust with litterally a snap of his fingers. Sounds familar? 

      Zeno isn't like Emperor Joker who was a version of the joker that was given almost all of Mxytzpitlik powers and he reshaped reality to his view. He also kept killing and reving batman over and over again. Sounds like a parellel to Zamasu more then Zeno to me.

      Joker does it cos he believes everyone is like him deep down and wants them to have one bad day Like he did to become like him. Everything is a joke to him. Zeno doesn't see the multiverse as a joke more like a playground.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: Mxytzpitlik would do the same thing as well if it was fun to him. He has the power to turn Characters like Superman, even his one million counterpart. Gods like Zeus, Spectre and even the monitors to dust with litterally a snap of his fingers. Sounds familar? 

      Zeno isn't like Emperor Joker who was a version of the joker that was given almost all of Mxytzpitlik powers and he reshaped reality to his view. He also kept killing and reving batman over and over again. Sounds like a parellel to Zamasu more then Zeno to me.

      Joker does it cos he believes everyone is like him deep down and wants them to have one bad day Like he did to become like him. Everything is a joke to him. Zeno doesn't see the multiverse as a joke more like a playground.

      He's certainly more like Kefka Palazzo, then. That guy literally does see everything as a playground and truly thinks its fun to destroy things.

      And no, Emperor Joker isn't like Zamasu at all. Zamasu did his actions for justice, while Emperor Joker clearly did all that stuff for a sheer laugh.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      And no, Emperor Joker isn't like Zamasu at all. Zamasu did his actions for justice, while Emperor Joker clearly did all that stuff for a sheer laugh.

      Zamasu actually did it to reshape reailty to his views of being no mortals. That was the zero mortal plans real goal. Although becoming Infinite Zamasu in the end made him went insane. So yeah Emperor Joker is like Zamasu.

      Reshaping.

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    • Pretty sure that's just your interpretation of his plan. Yeah he went insane, but I don't believe everything he said about his motivation was a lie. There's no reason to lie to inferior creatures about your motivation before slaughtering them.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      And no, Emperor Joker isn't like Zamasu at all. Zamasu did his actions for justice, while Emperor Joker clearly did all that stuff for a sheer laugh.

      Zamasu actually did it to reshape reailty to his views of being no mortals. That was the zero mortal plans real goal. Although becoming Infinite Zamasu in the end made him went insane. So yeah Emperor Joker is like Zamasu.

      Reshaping.

      As Gowasu himself mentioned, Zamasu wanted to enact justice upon mortals. The Joker just slaughtered mortals for a sheer laugh, like how Zeno ultimately turned out to be.

      In fact, watch how Kefka acted here, and you'd see how Zeno's very much like him or Emperor Joker:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-cdwDnryY0

      NervousShipper wrote: Pretty sure that's just your interpretation of his plan. Yeah he went insane, but I don't believe everything he said about his motivation was a lie. There's no reason to lie to inferior creatures about your motivation before slaughtering them.

      True, but then again, the Patriots in Metal Gear Solid 2 constantly lied about their plans to people they viewed as inferior to themselves.

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    • Then the patriots were idiots.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      0551E80Y wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      And no, Emperor Joker isn't like Zamasu at all. Zamasu did his actions for justice, while Emperor Joker clearly did all that stuff for a sheer laugh.

      Zamasu actually did it to reshape reailty to his views of being no mortals. That was the zero mortal plans real goal. Although becoming Infinite Zamasu in the end made him went insane. So yeah Emperor Joker is like Zamasu.

      Reshaping.

      As Gowasu himself mentioned, Zamasu wanted to enact justice upon mortals. The Joker just slaughtered mortals for a sheer laugh, like how Zeno ultimately turned out to be.

      In fact, watch how Kefka acted here, and you'd see how Zeno's very much like him or Emperor Joker:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-cdwDnryY0


      NervousShipper wrote: Pretty sure that's just your interpretation of his plan. Yeah he went insane, but I don't believe everything he said about his motivation was a lie. There's no reason to lie to inferior creatures about your motivation before slaughtering them.

      True, but then again, the Patriots in Metal Gear Solid 2 constantly lied about their plans to people they viewed as inferior to themselves.

      Reshaping is the theme here. That both Zamasu and Emperor Joker had in common.  And i said they're more like parallels rather then being identical. Zeno isn't like the joker. He doesn't match the core concepts of what makes the joker who he is.

      Zeno is more like Myxpitzlk then Joker anyday. Both have powers beyond any god or mortal previously established, they both want fun. And they're very childish. Joker isn't childish.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      0551E80Y wrote:


      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      And no, Emperor Joker isn't like Zamasu at all. Zamasu did his actions for justice, while Emperor Joker clearly did all that stuff for a sheer laugh.

      Zamasu actually did it to reshape reailty to his views of being no mortals. That was the zero mortal plans real goal. Although becoming Infinite Zamasu in the end made him went insane. So yeah Emperor Joker is like Zamasu.

      Reshaping.

      As Gowasu himself mentioned, Zamasu wanted to enact justice upon mortals. The Joker just slaughtered mortals for a sheer laugh, like how Zeno ultimately turned out to be.

      In fact, watch how Kefka acted here, and you'd see how Zeno's very much like him or Emperor Joker:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-cdwDnryY0


      NervousShipper wrote: Pretty sure that's just your interpretation of his plan. Yeah he went insane, but I don't believe everything he said about his motivation was a lie. There's no reason to lie to inferior creatures about your motivation before slaughtering them.

      True, but then again, the Patriots in Metal Gear Solid 2 constantly lied about their plans to people they viewed as inferior to themselves.

      Reshaping is the theme here. That both Zamasu and Emperor Joker had in common.  And i said they're more like parallels rather then being identical. Zeno isn't like the joker. He doesn't match the core concepts of what makes the joker who he is.

      Zeno is more like Myxpitzlk then Joker anyday. Both have powers beyond any god or mortal previously established, they both want fun. And they're very childish. Joker isn't childish.

      Actually, a bit of a correction, but the Joker IS childish. There's a reason why Joker's frequently on the "Psychopathic Manchild" trope. Heck, there's even a bit where Joker's basically whining about "not wanting to go to bead" and wanting to "play" longer as well as not liking the new Batman like some bratty child (in case you're wondering, this bit was from Batman: The Black Mirror. You know, the one where James Gordon's son is reintroduced as a psychopath?).

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    • Joker's childish attitude is just a facarde to bury his real charisma of being a nilisitic. No one thinks he's childish when he acts and they try to stop him. Harley Quinn on other hand is considered childish in comparison though.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: Joker's childish attitude is just a facarde to bury his real charisma of being a nilisitic. No one thinks he's childish when he acts and they try to stop him. Harley Quinn on other hand is considered childish in comparison though.

      Being nihilistic and childish aren't exactly mutually exclusive. Take Kefka Palazzo, for example. That guy was about as nihilistic as the Joker, and guess what, he also turned out to be VERY childish. Don't believe me? Just look at his behavior here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owjiKiWtYXU Heck, his behavior in the other video where he decided to blow up the world was literally due to a temper tantrum like some spoiled brat.

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    • That isn't defined childish, that is defined as true psychopatch behavior. It doesn't help the connection between Zeno and Joker. Any 5th dimensional being like myxtzplk is capable of the same thing.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: That isn't defined childish, that is defined as true psychopatch behavior. It doesn't help the connection between Zeno and Joker. Any 5th dimensional being like myxtzplk is capable of the same thing.

      Actually, it is, at least in regards to Kefka. In the Japanese version of Final Fantasy VI, for example, he literally talks like a child (specifically, he uses the Japanese pronoun "Boku-chin" when referring to himself, which is what little boys use when joking around or acting cute in various Japanese media. And bear in mind, Kefka's canonical age in at least Final Fantasy VI is 35 years old, meaning he obviously isn't a "little boy", even if he clearly had the mindset of one).

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    • I don't care about Kefka at all. Putting that aside. No psychologist would define that as childish.

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    • QuakingStar wrote:
      GT is non canon. When will people stop crying a river and get over it?

      GT is an alternate timeline it was confirmed in Xenoverse.

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    • Yeah but Xenoverse isn't canon either. It's only an alternate timeline within the Xeno continuity.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Yeah but Xenoverse isn't canon either. It's only an alternate timeline within the Xeno continuity.

      I don't even like the term "canon" in any franchise and I can tell you why, because I have reached the conclusion that "canon" is quite open to personal interpretation. Also if Xenoverse is "non canon" as you claim we would be left without explanation to some things in the franchise such as the movies and "Bardock's Episode". It was Xenoverse that explained even more that most of the movies happen in alternate timelines and that the events of "Bardock's Episode" were caused by Towa's meddling from the future using a wormhole to transport Bardock, just before he was killed by Frieza, to the distant past, where he battled Frieza's ancestor Chilled, and from there to an unknown age in an unknown timeline where Towa and Mira brainwashed him. Also if anything not by Toriyama is non canon are you trying to argue that "Dead Zone" is non canon even though its events were later expanded on Z?

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    • Ricardolindo wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:
      Yeah but Xenoverse isn't canon either. It's only an alternate timeline within the Xeno continuity.
      I don't even like the term "canon" in any franchise and I can tell you why, because I have reached the conclusion that "canon" is quite open to personal interpretation. 

      "Canon" as an absolute does not exist. Something is only canon in relation to something else. Super does not appear to be canon to GT, but GT is canon to DB and DBZ, just like Super is canon to (at least) DB.

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    • There's typically one canon that get prioritized by the creators. The main work that they invest most of their resources into. Other expanded material can at times fit right in with the main work, but sometimes the main work will contradict it so that the canonicity is negated.

      Xenoverse is never acknowledged in the main story, and anything that happens in Xenoverse will never really effect the source material. Chronoa is never mentioned despite the many many other Gods that are introduced. While Future Trunks didn't even know about Beerus and Whis until the Future Trunks Saga, even though Xeno Trunks already knew them and had sent Future Warrior to them.

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    • Super is canon to Z, the end of Z is no longer canon to Z

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Super is canon to Z, the end of Z is no longer canon to Z

      Can we at LEAST wait until the end of the whole tournament BEFORE we declare that?

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    • Are there any discrepencies between Super and the end of Z that would make sense for the characters to try to change back?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Super is canon to Z, the end of Z is no longer canon to Z

      Or Super is not canon to the end of Z.

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    • Exactly. Super supercedes End of Z.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Exactly. Super supercedes End of Z.

      Nope. Think of it like branches on a tree. Super is connected near the end of the DBZ branch, whereas GT is connected to the very tip. DBZ, in turn, is connected to DB.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      There's typically one canon that get prioritized by the creators. The main work that they invest most of their resources into. Other expanded material can at times fit right in with the main work, but sometimes the main work will contradict it so that the canonicity is negated.

      Xenoverse is never acknowledged in the main story, and anything that happens in Xenoverse will never really effect the source material. Chronoa is never mentioned despite the many many other Gods that are introduced. While Future Trunks didn't even know about Beerus and Whis until the Future Trunks Saga, even though Xeno Trunks already knew them and had sent Future Warrior to them.

      Xeno Trunks only knew about Beerus and Whis because Chronoa told him and that was after Super. Xeno Trunks is apparently not the Future Trunks that appears in Super. Xeno Trunks is probably the one of timeline 7 that was created when Beerus and Whis traveled to the past of timeline 2 before Goku Black's appearance and warned Future Beerus about Goku Black's threat. Also Chronoa had previously been mentioned in Dragon Ball Online and that game had direct supervision of Toriyama. IIRC Chronoa can not leave the time nest if any other gods need to talk to her they have to go to the time nest and that only happens rarely so there is little need to mention her. However Xenoverse's time travel rules were already mentioned and acknowledge in the series. Whis mentioned that interfering with the timeline was a grave crime and could lead to the destruction of reality itself such as said in Xenoverse. So Xenoverse doesn't have any big inconsistency and actually the game's purpose sometimes seem to be solving the inconsistencies and plotholes of other elements of the franchise. Also only because X doesn't influence Y very much that doesn't mean X and Y don't coexist.

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    • Ricardolindo wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:
      There's typically one canon that get prioritized by the creators. The main work that they invest most of their resources into. Other expanded material can at times fit right in with the main work, but sometimes the main work will contradict it so that the canonicity is negated.

      Xenoverse is never acknowledged in the main story, and anything that happens in Xenoverse will never really effect the source material. Chronoa is never mentioned despite the many many other Gods that are introduced. While Future Trunks didn't even know about Beerus and Whis until the Future Trunks Saga, even though Xeno Trunks already knew them and had sent Future Warrior to them.

      Xeno Trunks only knew about Beerus and Whis because Chronoa told him and that was after Super. Also Xeno Trunks is apparently not the Future Trunks of Super. Xeno Trunks is probably the one of timeline 7 that was created when Beerus and Whis traveled to the past of timeline 2 just before Goku Black's appearance and warned Future Beerus about Goku Black's threat. Also Chronoa had previously been mentione Dragon Ball Online and that game had direct supervision of Toriyama. IIRC Chronoa can not leave the time nest if any other gods need to talk to her they have to go to the time nest and that only happens rarely so there is little need to mention her. However Xenoverse's time travel rules were already mentioned and acknowledge in the series. Whis mentioned that interfering with the timeline was a grave crime and could lead to the destruction of reality itself such as said in Xenoverse. So Xenoverse doesn't have any big inconsistency and actually the game's purpose sometimes seem to be solving the inconsistencies and plotholes of other elements of the franchise. Only because X doesn't influence Y very much that doesn't mean X and Y don't coexist.

      He could be from another dimension just like the Xeno Bardock that has been appearing in Super Dragon Ball Heroes lately. Toriyama confirmed that the movies are not from an alternate timeline, but in another dimension.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:
      Ricardolindo wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:
      There's typically one canon that get prioritized by the creators. The main work that they invest most of their resources into. Other expanded material can at times fit right in with the main work, but sometimes the main work will contradict it so that the canonicity is negated.

      Xenoverse is never acknowledged in the main story, and anything that happens in Xenoverse will never really effect the source material. Chronoa is never mentioned despite the many many other Gods that are introduced. While Future Trunks didn't even know about Beerus and Whis until the Future Trunks Saga, even though Xeno Trunks already knew them and had sent Future Warrior to them.

      Xeno Trunks only knew about Beerus and Whis because Chronoa told him and that was after Super. Also Xeno Trunks is apparently not the Future Trunks of Super. Xeno Trunks is probably the one of timeline 7 that was created when Beerus and Whis traveled to the past of timeline 2 just before Goku Black's appearance and warned Future Beerus about Goku Black's threat. Also Chronoa had previously been mentione Dragon Ball Online and that game had direct supervision of Toriyama. IIRC Chronoa can not leave the time nest if any other gods need to talk to her they have to go to the time nest and that only happens rarely so there is little need to mention her. However Xenoverse's time travel rules were already mentioned and acknowledge in the series. Whis mentioned that interfering with the timeline was a grave crime and could lead to the destruction of reality itself such as said in Xenoverse. So Xenoverse doesn't have any big inconsistency and actually the game's purpose sometimes seem to be solving the inconsistencies and plotholes of other elements of the franchise. Only because X doesn't influence Y very much that doesn't mean X and Y don't coexist.
      He could be from another dimension just like the Xeno Bardock that has been appearing in Super Dragon Ball Heroes lately. Toriyama confirmed that the movies are not from an alternate timeline, but in another dimension.

      Call it "alternate timeline", "alternate dimension", "alternate reality", "parallel world", ... . It doesn't really matter it's basically saying the same using different worlds. Just don't use the term "alternate universe" because in the Dragonball franchise the term "universe" is not used in that way.

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    • While Xenoverse attempts to establish continuity and cover up the inconsistencies, which I should add they do a good job at, they are unlikely of ever truly crossing over with the anime. Theres another inconsistency you pointed out, Whis says mortal time travel is forbidden period, yet the entire time patrollers are full of mortals time travelling. Yeah I've heard the theory that Xeno Trunks is New Trunks,though there no proof of that at the moment.

      Alternate continuity would be most accurate. Of it were an alternate time line or reality that implies the main series characters could avidly visit it.

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    • Time patrol is under the authorization of Chronoa to travel through time. And the reason they time travel is to prevent disortions in history by keep events as they happened. The ones that they ignore like Future Trunks time travelling is allowed at the surpreme kai of time's goverence.

      Alternate Universe can be used for time traveling. Just put a letter at the end.

      Universe 7A- Tournament of Power

      Universe 7B- Goku Black is created

      Universe 7C- Future Trunks' homeworld that is erased by Future Zeno

      Universe 7D- Two Future Trunks and Future Mais are now dwelling. Zero Mortal Plan never happens.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      Universe 7D- Two Future Trunks and Future Mais are now dwelling. Zero Mortal Plan never happens.

      Nah, Zen'o probably killed them by now.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      While Xenoverse attempts to establish continuity and cover up the inconsistencies, which I should add they do a good job at, they are unlikely of ever truly crossing over with the anime. Theres another inconsistency you pointed out, Whis says mortal time travel is forbidden period, yet the entire time patrollers are full of mortals time travelling. Yeah I've heard the theory that Xeno Trunks is New Trunks,though there no proof of that at the moment.

      Alternate continuity would be most accurate. Of it were an alternate time line or reality that implies the main series characters could avidly visit it.

      As alread said the Time Patrol has a special permit from Chronoa and presumably Zeno to travel in time in order to fix any changes in the timelines. Also apparently Chronoa is not affected by a timeline slipt and she can call anyone from any timeline to the Time Nest. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:
      Universe 7D- Two Future Trunks and Future Mais are now dwelling. Zero Mortal Plan never happens.
      Nah, Zen'o probably killed them by now.

      If you are refering to him erasing the low mortal level universes then please remember he's not omniscient he forgets things to do. In DBS Goku had to remind him of the tournament proposal.

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    • And in the manga, he arrived right when zen'o was about to do it.

      Edit: And either way, whether it's now, or in 50 billion years, their souls will still be wiped from existance.

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    • Actually I now wonder due to the inconsistencies can the anime and the manga be considered separate timelines/realites/dimensions/worlds?

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    • Yes. But Zen'o would still eventually destroy everything.

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    • Expanded universe explanations can be as clever as they like, but until the source material adopts them then they're in the same boat as Star Wars Legends.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Expanded universe explanations can be as clever as they like, but until the source material adopts them then they're in the same boat as Star Wars Legends.

      It's not fair to bring up examples of another franchises to argue here. FWIW the reason I started to search about the Dragon Ball franchise was because in a Digimon forum an user was trying to use the DBZ movies to argue on the canonicity of a Digimon movie.

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    • Fair =\= wrong

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Expanded universe explanations can be as clever as they like, but until the source material adopts them then they're in the same boat as Star Wars Legends.

      To be fair, Legends WAS canon until Disney did the Legends/Canon split.

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    • Ricardolindo wrote: Actually I now wonder due to the inconsistencies can the anime and the manga be considered separate timelines/realites/dimensions/worlds?

      Not really confirmed. We should consider them part of the same reality/timeline/dimension for now. Though out of universe they are different continuities.

      Ricardolindo wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:
      Expanded universe explanations can be as clever as they like, but until the source material adopts them then they're in the same boat as Star Wars Legends.
      It's not fair to bring up examples of another franchises to argue here. FWIW the reason I started to search about the Dragon Ball franchise was because in a Digimon forum an user was trying to use the DBZ movies to argue on the canonicity of a Digimon movie.

      Yeah, that is dumb. Canon is different with every franchise it really just depends what the people in charge of it want to make and manage "canon" or not. Toriyama and Toei clearly don't want to handle that responsibility. 

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote: Expanded universe explanations can be as clever as they like, but until the source material adopts them then they're in the same boat as Star Wars Legends.

      To be fair, Legends WAS canon until Disney did the Legends/Canon split.

      Yeah...Star Wars has become this business to make money now so......gotta try to eliminate the competition somehow.

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    • Of course he is. But we are supposed to like him regardless. Tells you how abhorrent Super truly is.

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    • Googologist77 wrote:
      If Goku is truly a moral being, it is his responsibility to hunt down Zeno and kill him.



      Right on. Zeno is crazier than all the madman Dragon Ball has ever produced. Sheesh. AN dhe wonders why everyone fears him. HE CAN WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE UNIVERSE ON A WHIM!

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Yes. But Zen'o would still eventually destroy everything.


      Then the only sensible way to continue on in the db multiverse while knowing that is to be nilisitic as possible. Life is ultimately meaningless in dragon ball now. The tournament of Power shows that despite all the amazing new feats, forms and powers the u7 team and their opponents, especially jiren shows. It's all just to entertain the zenos as his/their toys. 


      You could have ultra instict ssj4 mixed with super ultra blue energy amplified with a kaioken times 100 Vegito and Gogeta fusion. And zeno could just go "BIP" They're erased from existance.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      Yes. But Zen'o would still eventually destroy everything.


      Then the only sensible way to continue on in the db multiverse while knowing that is to be nilisitic as possible. Life is ultimately meaningless in dragon ball now. The tournament of Power shows that despite all the amazing new feats, forms and powers the u7 team and their opponents, especially jiren shows. It's all just to entertain the zenos as his/their toys. 


      You could have ultra instict ssj4 mixed with super ultra blue energy amplified with a kaioken times 100 Vegito and Gogeta fusion. And zeno could just go "BIP" They're erased from existance.

      In that sense, he's similar to Shinryu from the Dissidia series, and NOT in a good way, obviously. And since there's literally no hope in defeating him, he's actually pretty depressing.

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    • With the erasures and Android 17's sacrifice, I've come to the conclusion the two Zenos are stupid clowns.

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    • Super Dragon Balls can make ANY wish. It was stated already.. so all Zeno's from all timelines period could be wished out of existence.. Next to be wished out of existence should be the Grand Priest. Goku in Ultra Instinct, Vegeta in Super Saiyan Beyond Blue, and Jiren can deal with the Gods of Destruction therefor making the Angels go into a permanent coma. But honestly the Angels don't seem to be evil in any way... just their father and the Zenos.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Super Dragon Balls can make ANY wish. It was stated already.. so all Zeno's from all timelines period could be wished out of existence.. Next to be wished out of existence should be the Grand Priest. Goku in Ultra Instinct, Vegeta in Super Saiyan Beyond Blue, and Jiren can deal with the Gods of Destruction therefor making the Angels go into a permanent coma. But honestly the Angels don't seem to be evil in any way... just their father and the Zenos.

      Even their father seemed shocked by Zeno's plan to erase more universes if we go by the manga, so it's just Zeno, really.

      And I probably would be more receptive to the idea that the Super Dragon Balls could stop Zeno... had Zeno not already erased Infinite Zamasu despite the latter being rendered immortal thanks to those same Dragon Balls beforehand.

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    • That erasure ability is supposed to be able to erase all. That's not the same as him being impervious to such a wish.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: That erasure ability is supposed to be able to erase all. That's not the same as him being impervious to such a wish.

      Yeah, except when someone is immortal, that means they can't be killed, erasures included.

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    • Zeno's ability has no limit, that includes entire timelines and immortals. That's the explanation.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Zeno's ability has no limit, that includes entire timelines and immortals. That's the explanation.

      Well, if he and his ability have no limit, then the only thing that can be explained is that the Super Dragon Balls have limits. Otherwise, it would be an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object (meaning, Zeno and Zamasu's attempts at killing each other would not work).

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Even their father seemed shocked by Zeno's plan to erase more universes if we go by the manga, so it's just Zeno, really.

      Oh believe me, I've seen a couple of morons still believing he legit is hiding something, secretly plotting to overthrown Zeno either by making them erase each other or unleashing an Angel conspiracy.

      See what you did Mojito?

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Even their father seemed shocked by Zeno's plan to erase more universes if we go by the manga, so it's just Zeno, really.

      Oh believe me, I've seen a couple of morons still believing he legit is hiding something, secretly plotting to overthrown Zeno either by making them erase each other or unleashing an Angel conspiracy.

      See what you did Mojito?

      How else do you explain their exemption from being erased. Also, what happened to their siblings from universes 13-18?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      Even their father seemed shocked by Zeno's plan to erase more universes if we go by the manga, so it's just Zeno, really.

      Oh believe me, I've seen a couple of morons still believing he legit is hiding something, secretly plotting to overthrown Zeno either by making them erase each other or unleashing an Angel conspiracy.

      See what you did Mojito?

      How else do you explain their exemption from being erased. Also, what happened to their siblings from universes 13-18?


      That erasure was unplanned so they were probably erased together with their universes. The reason for they now not being erased is due to the fact that angels are not really from any universe, they were just placed there and they can get a new god of destruction to serve.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      How else do you explain their exemption from being erased. Also, what happened to their siblings from universes 13-18?


      Pfff you do realize Angels don't play any role as Gods of Creation/Destruction right?
      Maksdmkald

      While they often try to give their best advice to the gods to keep the Universe balance stable, they mostly are forced to accept their wrong decisions.

      And about Universe 13-18, as far as I know that was because Zeno was in a bad mood, and as the supreme authority he can do whatever he wants. In moment of rage, the Great Priest may wasn't able to convince him to spare the Angels for the reasons I explained above.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:

      How else do you explain their exemption from being erased. Also, what happened to their siblings from universes 13-18?


      Pfff you do realize Angels don't play any role as Gods of Creation/Destruction right?
      Maksdmkald

      While they often try to give their best advice to the gods to keep the Universe balance stable, they mostly are forced to accept their wrong decisions.

      And about Universe 13-18, as far as I know that was because Zeno was in a bad mood, and as the supreme authority he can do whatever he wants. In moment of rage, the Great Priest may wasn't able to convince him to spare the Angels for the reasons I explained above.


      I wonder: Does the Great Priest hold any rancour towards Zeno for erasing 6 of his children?

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    • Ricardolindo wrote:
      I wonder: Does the Great Priest hold any rancour towards Zeno for erasing 6 of his children?


      We don't know if the rest of the Angels are his children. You want me to believe Campari, who looks considerable older than GP is his son?
      Then again, we hardly know anything about Universe 13-18. It could be possible none of those Angels were related to him, judging by how Whis explains what happened to those so calm, if some of his siblings ceased to exist.
      It's also a common thing for Angels to not give a damn about life and death, even if they showed emotions more often, do you think they stand a chance against a child who can erase them in a second?

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Ricardolindo wrote:
      I wonder: Does the Great Priest hold any rancour towards Zeno for erasing 6 of his children?


      We don't know if the rest of the Angels are his children. You want me to believe Campari, who looks considerable older than GP is his son?
      Then again, we hardly know anything about Universe 13-18. It could be possible none of those Angels were related to him, judging by how Whis explains what happened to those so calm, if some of his siblings ceased to exist.
      It's also a common thing for Angels to not give a damn about life and death, even if they showed emotions more often, do you think they stand a chance against a child who can erase them in a second?


      In the first place, given the longevity of the Great Priest there is nothing impossible with him being Campari's father. Also, I guess you misunderstood what I said, I only wondered whether the Great Priest holds any bit of rancour for erasing six angels who were probably his children, I did not say he wants a revenge.

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    • Ricardolindo wrote:
      I only wondered whether the Great Priest holds any bit of rancour for erasing six angels who were probably his children, I did not say he wants a revenge.


      Like I said, considering most Angels tend to show hardly any emotions, it's hard to tell.
      What's clear, however, is that he sees Angels valuable and cares about his children most likely because of what I said previously. If you remember, he was the one explaining no Angel would be harmed, not Zeno. If he didn't care at all, he would have let Zeno erase Angels as well just like he did before.

      Whatever the case is I'm not gonna overthink so much on this. His behavior is very similar to the ones from Whis, Vados and Marcarita (duh). He looks like this mysterious guy who could be evil but really isn't.



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    • Skar800 wrote:

      Oh believe me, I've seen a couple of morons still believing he legit is hiding something, secretly plotting to overthrown Zeno either by making them erase each other or unleashing an Angel conspiracy.

      See what you did Mojito?

      That was an interesting theory at the time, but it holds no weight after U10 got erased. GP at worst is a troll.

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    • I agree on that, I admit it made sense to an extent after U9 was erased but once we got many Angels mourning their gods death, it's unlikely they now become evil.

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    • Tbh, I wish that theory was real. It would have been far more interesting than just all universes erased one-by-one before Goku and friends inevitably win. Since unless you count Zeno, there's no real antagonist in this arc for the heroes to defeat.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Skar800 wrote:

      Oh believe me, I've seen a couple of morons still believing he legit is hiding something, secretly plotting to overthrown Zeno either by making them erase each other or unleashing an Angel conspiracy.

      See what you did Mojito?

      That was an interesting theory at the time, but it holds no weight after U10 got erased. GP at worst is a troll.

      Yeah, and don't get me started on the manga where Grand Priest was clearly shocked upon learning that Zeno is planning to erase universes again.

      Tbh, I wish that theory was real. It would have been far more interesting than just all universes erased one-by-one before Goku and friends inevitably win. Since unless you count Zeno, there's no real antagonist in this arc for the heroes to defeat.

      Yeah, and what's worse is that it needlessly ended up turning Zeno into a borderline Complete Monster, which, combined with the fact that he's literally unbeatable, makes for a very painful and depressing arc, where Zeno inevitably gets away with everything.

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    • I'm wondering if this arc got the cut at some point. Both the universe 4 God of Destruction and Freeza were having strong undertones of a villainous motive to be revealed along the way, and initially it did seem like the Grand Priest was the one pulling the strings this time (except in manga where he is mildly surprised by Zeno's decision to erase more universes). But instead we really get a straight descent into a final Goku vs Jiren duel. 

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    • Can you stop with the complete monster already? A complete monster is by definition "devoid of redeeming qualities in every possible way". Say what you will about his mass murder, Zeno is capable of displaying genuine friendship which already rules him out.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Can you stop with the complete monster already? A complete monster is by definition "devoid of redeeming qualities in every possible way". Say what you will about his mass murder, Zeno is capable of displaying genuine friendship which already rules him out.

      I fail to see how he is capable of displaying genuine friendship, TBH. Last I checked, him going through with the tournament and pretty much pinning the blame on Goku for starting the tournament, leaving him as a scapegoat to the other universes, making zero attempt at acting in his defense, and also most likely risking Goku with universal erasure with such a tournament, is not my definition of "genuine friendship." If he truly displayed genuine friendship, he would have cut the crap and made clear that Zeno alone was responsible for the tournament, that Goku's only role was reminding him of said tournament, and that they should stop attacking Goku and if anything should blame Zeno himself. If anything, Zeno's "friendship" to Goku is no different than Frieza's "love" for his father King Cold (and last I checked, that didn't exempt Frieza from being a Complete Monster even back when said love for his father WAS genuine back in Z, and believe me, technically, he could have killed King Cold any time he wanted to especially if he didn't genuinely care for him at all.).

      Besides, in case you haven't noticed, there have been PLENTY of Complete Monsters that actually HAVE displayed genuine friendship with other characters or at least some redeemable qualities. Case in point: aside from Frieza as listed above, Zamasu at least demonstrated genuine friendship with Goku Black (and vice versa), at least in the anime, and even THEY still qualified as Complete Monsters. And for stuff outside Dragon Ball, Albert Wesker actually WAS capable of genuine friendship (just ask William Birkin. That guy was one of the few people he actually MADE an effort to save in the games), and if the Japanese files for Revelations 2 is of any indication, he also had some care for Alex Wesker as well. Heck, Volgin also genuinely cared for Raikov as well (he obviously had to if he not only got outraged that Naked Snake disguised himself as Raikov [most likely hurting him in the process], but based on Raikov's underwear render, Volgin never even harmed Raikov at all). And last I checked, both characters qualified as Complete Monsters.

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    • Doesn't matter, you need to be literally devoid of even anything positive to qualify. Any villain can kill lots of lives for fun, but you have to be a special kind of evil to count as a complete monster. The author has to have made it so that there is not even the slightest positive thing about them, they are in the context of the story, the absolute worst thing in existence. Zeno is not depicted that way. He's entertained by very benign things, respectfully waits to ask Goku of his opinion, and he does listen to GP's advise for the most. Zeno at worst is 50/50, definitely not a complete monster.

      Zamasu qualified because even if he's initially well-intentioned, he's morality and heinous acts are so warped that he is beyond redemption. Gowasu literally gave him a chance to turn over a new leaf, and he tries to kill Gowasu in return. He's a monster because the ONLY way to stop him is to make him cease to exist.

      I don't really know any of the others you listed so I can't share any analysis on them.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Doesn't matter, you need to be literally devoid of even anything positive to qualify. Any villain can kill lots of lives for fun, but you have to be a special kind of evil to count as a complete monster. The author has to have made it so that there is not even the slightest positive thing about them, they are in the context of the story, the absolute worst thing in existence. Zeno is not depicted that way. He's entertained by very benign things, respectfully waits to ask Goku of his opinion, and he does listen to GP's advise for the most. Zeno at worst is 50/50, definitely not a complete monster.

      Zamasu qualified because even if he's initially well-intentioned, he's morality and heinous acts are so warped that he is beyond redemption. Gowasu literally gave him a chance to turn over a new leaf, and he tries to kill Gowasu in return. He's a monster because the ONLY way to stop him is to make him cease to exist.

      I don't really know any of the others you listed so I can't share any analysis on them.

      Okay, regarding Albert Wesker, you can get a grasp for the character here. For Volgin, watch this here (Sorry if it's the whole game, but I can't find any videos showing exclusively Volgin's scenes).

      And no, actually, Zeno IS the worst thing in existence. In case you've forgotten, he still sold out Goku, made HIM a scapegoat and blamed HIM for everything relating to the tournament when in reality it was all on Zeno, or at most, he made no attempt to speak on Goku's behalf and defend him when the rest of the universes hated Goku for very understandable reasons relating to the tournament. Heck, even FRIEZA was disgusted with Zeno's actions. And BTW, even Frollo at least had ONE positive thing about him (he did take in Quasimodo even when he could have easily just not done so and even gleefully kill him in front of the Archbishop, with no care for his immortal soul), yet he STILL qualified. And BTW, Zamasu and Goku Black having a genuine friendship, last I checked, IS a positive/redeemable quality, so going by "literally no positives whatsoever", they are disqualified for that reason alone, even if we DO ignore the whole "well intentioned extremist" bit (besides, I consider erasing universes and forcing universes to fight each other for their survival simply for your own amusement like Zeno did to be far worse than what Zamasu ever did, and for the record, Zeno has a far higher body count and has NO indication of being even the slightest bit remorseful of his actions.). And I wouldn't call "erasure of universes" or blowing up planets in a game "benign" at all. That's more Kefka stuff, or even Frieza stuff. And as far as "listening to advice", even the likes of Palpatine and Ganondorf listened to the advice of their henchmen (The whole "Tarkin Doctrine" was Tarkin's idea, not to mention Palpatine didn't seem to even CONSIDER the option of turning Luke to the Dark Side until Vader suggested it to him if we go by Empire Strikes Back; and as far as Ganondorf, he originally intended to have Ingo executed in the manga, but then Twinrova suggested that he instead be brainwashed.), and THEY qualified as complete monsters. And if he truly cared about Goku, he wouldn't have started the tournament in the first place precisely BECAUSE he'd realize if he erased Universe 7, Goku would be erased as well. And BTW, that's actually one of the bigger reasons why I hate the Complete Monster territory (mostly because it's completely broken especially regarding the definition. I'm sorry, I fail to see how Zeno fails to qualify despite blowing up universes for fun and clearly not caring enough for Goku to even prevent the tournament from occurring with the realization that he will erase Goku if he loses, even when, as shown by his reaction to Zamasu merging the universe, even he was aware it was wrong, yet Zamasu does despite his at least being motivated by justice and overall having LESS of a bodycount than Zeno, for example. If anything, Zamasu has more redeemable traits than him. Zamasu's closer to say, Magneto, while Zeno's closer to Kefka.).

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    • That's your opinion. Toriyama clearly does not share that view. You can disagree with him and the story all you like, but unless the work of fiction actually depicts them as being the absolute worst then you have no grounds to make that claim. And being worst isn't measured in a kill count, you need to take everything about their character into account. You're only looking at "he kills entire universes therefore he's the worst". The Frieza point doesn't mean anything. Frieza is disgusted by the angels in hell full of teddy bears and rabbits. Does that make teddy bears evil? No it doesn't. I already listed several positive things about Zeno, thanks for continuing to ignore them. I never said erasing universes was benign, can you read what I wrote properly first.

      Black and Zamasu are literally the same person. Only loving yourself and killing everything except yourself is the ultimate narcissism. Not a positive. If anything that's the embodiment of selfishness and egotism.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      That's your opinion. Toriyama clearly does not share that view. You can disagree with him and the story all you like, but unless the work of fiction actually depicts them as being the absolute worst then you have no grounds to make that claim. And being worst isn't measured in a kill count, you need to take everything about their character into account. You're only looking at "he kills entire universes therefore he's the worst". The Frieza point doesn't mean anything. Frieza is disgusted by the angels in hell full of teddy bears and rabbits. Does that make teddy bears evil? No it doesn't. I already listed several positive things about Zeno, thanks for continuing to ignore them. I never said erasing universes was benign, can you read what I wrote properly first.

      Black and Zamasu are literally the same person. Only loving yourself and killing everything except yourself is the ultimate narcissism. Not a positive. If anything that's the embodiment of selfishness and egotism.

      It's not JUST the fact that he erased universes, actually. It's also the fact that he clearly had fun doing so for his own amusement and often did it for completely trivial reasons, even when he had no reason to actually do so, and the fact that he erased them largely because he didn't want to take care of them, and even allowed Goku, his friend, to act as a scapegoat just to satisfy his desire to have fun. He's not any different from Frieza or Zamasu, and if anything is arguably worse (I'm pretty sure slaughtering people simply because you found it fun, even if they weren't a threat to you in any way nor ever could be, is even worse than slaughtering people to preserve your power, not that the latter is any good either... And I'm pretty sure most people would agree with that.). If he destroyed universes completely by accident, and is clearly horrified by what he did, that would at least exempt him from being a monster, but he's clearly not horrified in the slightest, not even after erasing Universe 10 when its angel was clearly heartbroken. He STILL reveled in the destruction. And I'm pretty sure him enjoying blowing up planets, and erasing universes and doing so solely for his amusement IS selfish, so yes, Zeno is even MORE selfish than Zamasu.

      And no, technically, Goku Black and Zamasu are separate people. And even if they were the same entity, the ultimate form of narcissism would be closer to you deciding to kill OFF your alternate self just to make sure you are the only one in existence. In fact, that's actually what occurred in the Manga, where Goku Black and Zamasu certainly didn't view each other as friends. As another example, try how Master Albert tried to off Grey, a clone of his and an explicit back up in case Albert himself fell in battle, just to make sure he's the only one in existence.

      Also, regarding Frieza, in Z, he literally had no problem with Earth, citing it was "a good planet" with rare sincerity and softness, and I'm pretty sure that Frieza after Universe 9 was destroyed made it VERY clear that it wasn't JUST their cute appearances, but also their destructive acts, which indicated that even HE was appalled by their behavior.

      EDIT: As far as authorial intent, technically, one can be a complete monster even if the actual writers didn't intend for it. Case in point: Master Xehanort in Birth By Sleep was intended to be a decent individual by the writers and story, yet he's framed as a Complete Monster on TVTropes simply because the audience disagreed about him being sympathetic (that's also why he's listed under "Unintentionally Unsympathetic" in addition to Complete Monster.). Besides, when I showed my parents what he did to Universe 9 and even tried to explain he was pure-hearted, they didn't buy it, comparing him to the Kim Dynasty and other monsters. We go by actions, and ESPECIALLY reactions to said actions by them, and last I checked, he wasn't exactly remorseful or horrified by the carnage he inflicted, meaning, yes, he IS a Complete Monster. And how the story treats it is also a garbage excuse: The Boss did the same atrocious acts as Volgin, and even implies being a good soldier means you must obey even orders that allow for war crimes with zeal, and she is disqualified for some reason.

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    • There is an issue with measuring morality by kill count alone : Capacity. Humans with an extremely darwinistic approach may think they are easily capable of killing a person under extreme circumstance, while human intentional serial killers and mass murderers are aware they can kill a person with hands or simple tools while a bunch of people can be killed if they get their hands on the right weapons all at once.



      Saiyans or members of the Freeza race can raze entire cities,d continents, or planets in one motion. I would argue the fact alone, and growing up with it, makes killcount based morality being viewed as a linear progression by numbers wrong. This is further muddled by the fact Zeno is literally THE God right now. Nothing can stop him, and few even dare explaining things or suggesting ideas to him. If he's moody enough to kill a god, he can do it, if he's moody enough to blow up a universe, he can do that, too. It's literally squashing bugs to him, and having Goku as a friend so far is more similar to a moody kit possessing a pet; they are happy to pet and cuddle it but are not fond enough of it to not kick it out under some circumstance or another. 



      Gods capable of mass destruction on a whim and having underdeveloped minds are closer to orange and blue morality than they are to good and evil.

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    • Venithil wrote:

      There is an issue with measuring morality by kill count alone : Capacity. Humans with an extremely darwinistic approach may think they are easily capable of killing a person under extreme circumstance, while human intentional serial killers and mass murderers are aware they can kill a person with hands or simple tools while a bunch of people can be killed if they get their hands on the right weapons all at once.



      Saiyans or members of the Freeza race can raze entire cities,d continents, or planets in one motion. I would argue the fact alone, and growing up with it, makes killcount based morality being viewed as a linear progression by numbers wrong. This is further muddled by the fact Zeno is literally THE God right now. Nothing can stop him, and few even dare explaining things or suggesting ideas to him. If he's moody enough to kill a god, he can do it, if he's moody enough to blow up a universe, he can do that, too. It's literally squashing bugs to him, and having Goku as a friend so far is more similar to a moody kit possessing a pet; they are happy to pet and cuddle it but are not fond enough of it to not kick it out under some circumstance or another. 



      Gods capable of mass destruction on a whim and having underdeveloped minds are closer to orange and blue morality than they are to good and evil.

      What makes you think I'm just going by kill count alone with Zeno? As I said earlier:

      "It's also the fact that he clearly had fun doing so for his own amusement and often did it for completely trivial reasons, even when he had no reason to actually do so, and the fact that he erased them largely because he didn't want to take care of them, and even allowed Goku, his friend, to act as a scapegoat just to satisfy his desire to have fun."

      Heck, there's even one more thing that qualifies him: Unlike, say, Majin Buu, who literally was unaware that mass murder was wrong until Mr. Satan told him, Zeno clearly was fully aware that it was wrong (why do you THINK Zeno erased Zamasu? The manga even supported this idea of him knowing right from wrong regarding at least mass murderfrom the fact that Zamasu deeply considered getting the heck out of dodge should Zeno find out about the Zero Mortal's Plan). If anything, that actually MAKES Zeno worse, ultimately, as he has more of a moral grasp than Majin Buu did, and he clearly didn't even care. And for the record, the Gods of Destruction at least had the fact that destroying civilizations literally being their job as an excuse for what they did.

      And for the record, technically, Kefka Palazzo in Final Fantasy VI was also THE God by the end of the game, yet he still qualified as a Complete Monster precisely BECAUSE he truly took joy in killing people.

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    • Since Zeno has a physical body, it's likely he can die under some circumstance or another. He is also not stated to be immortal. Couldn't Spike the Devil Man use the Devilmite Beam to kill Zeno? (Since we have proved he is evil, the next question is if he can be killed.)

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    • Googologist77 wrote: Since Zeno has a physical body, it's likely he can die under some circumstance or another. He is also not stated to be immortal. Couldn't Spike the Devil Man use the Devilmite Beam to kill Zeno? (Since we have proved he is evil, the next question is if he can be killed.)

      I don't think so. Don't forget he outright tanked being erased when he erased Future Trunks' timeline, and since he makes even Old Kai seem like a youngster, he most likely is either immortal or at the very least has a very long longevity. As far as the Devilmite Beam, considering it fails to kill Zamasu (either standard or Future) or Goku Black despite them being very evil, I'd have to say it probably won't kill Zeno regardless of whether he's evil.

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    • Neither Goku Black nor Zamasu or even Zeno are evil despite the fact that they found joy in killing milions of people. It's stated that even while doing so Zamasu/Goku Black had a pure heart due to the fact, that they really believed that they did a right thing and there was nothing wrong with it.  Devilmite Beam doesnt work on Zamasu and Goku Black in Fusions due to them having pure hearts.

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    • Meshifuari Arimota wrote: Neither Goku Black nor Zamasu or even Zeno are evil despite the fact that they found joy in killing milions of people. It's stated that even while doing so Zamasu/Goku Black had a pure heart due to the fact, that they really believed that they did a right thing and there was nothing wrong with it.  Devilmite Beam doesnt work on Zamasu and Goku Black in Fusions due to them having pure hearts.

      Technically, having a pure heart doesn't mean you're actually good. It just means you don't have any impurities. After all, Cell has the ability to channel the spirit bomb, which specifically requires a pure heart to do, and he's pure evil. And even Kid Buu managed to deflect the Spirit Bomb, which, again, it was specifically stated to require a pure heart. In fact, people having pure hearts and yet STILL being very evil has even been a recurring trope called "pure is not good."

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    • Even if Zamasu was pure, I highly doubt he is once he became Goku Black. He's clearly lost his sanity and is batshit crazy. Beerus and Whis said they could feel the malice coming off him, which really doesn't sound like he's still pure.

      Cell does not have the ability to channel the Spirit Bomb. He was bluffing and never displays that ability in the anime or manga. Also, the Spirit Bomb specifically targets evil so the Kid Buu argument doesn't work either. Krillin who was not pure, but mostly good was able to wield the Spirit Bomb. Beings that are strong enough can resist the Spirit Bomb with raw power for a time, but that has nothing to do with purity. Are you seriously telling me Jiren (who's basically in the middle grey area) is pure too?

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Even if Zamasu was pure, I highly doubt he is once he became Goku Black. He's clearly lost his sanity and is batshit crazy. Beerus and Whis said they could feel the malice coming off him, which really doesn't sound like he's still pure.

      Cell does not have the ability to channel the Spirit Bomb. He was bluffing and never displays that ability in the anime or manga. Also, the Spirit Bomb specifically targets evil so the Kid Buu argument doesn't work either. Krillin who was not pure, but mostly good was able to wield the Spirit Bomb. Beings that are strong enough can resist the Spirit Bomb with raw power for a time, but that has nothing to do with purity. Are you seriously telling me Jiren (who's basically in the middle grey area) is pure too?

      1. Dragon Ball Fusions already made it clear that Goku Black and even Future Zamasu retained heart purity (and I'm pretty sure Toriyama approved of it, otherwise he'd demand they change it and maybe even fire the guy who added it in).

      2. Cell was shown using the Spirit Bomb in various games, and besides which, Cell was specifically stated in the manga to wield the Spirit Bomb due to being pure evil.

      3. If we go by the manga, the whole reason why Vegeta was even ABLE to become a Super Saiyan was precisely because he had a "heart of pure evil" at the time he transformed (remember, this was well before he reformed).

      4. I'm pretty sure that Goku specifically stated that one can deflect the Spirit Bomb only if they have a pure heart.

      Besides, I fail to see how Zeno would be pure of heart when he clearly took joy in erasing those universes, not even caring if any of the angels were saddened or whether the creator gods were in fear like in the case of Roh, and such an act naturally included innocents (in other words, Zeno was very sadistic). You want to see how an actual pure character would act regarding that, just look at how Goku acted when the various villains tried to harm innocent civilians (if anything, Goku had Zeno been anyone else would have been so disgusted with him that he'd probably risk erasure just to stop him). Or, for another example, try how Terra acted when she learned that she had attacked Onion Knight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XkPbULKTeM

      Besides, like I said earlier, "purity of heart" doesn't mean someone is actually good, as even TVTropes pointed out, and they've got a lot of examples from Dragon Ball on that page (did you know that Akira Toriyama didn't even consider Goku to be an actual good person? If anything, he's technically like Oolong early on in the series, where he does good things a few times, but it's ambiguous as to whether he's truly good.):

      http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PureIsNotGood

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    • A non-canon game that doesn't even individually name the races correctly. They did that just for convenience of categorizing characters. There is no way Zamasu is pure after he became Black, unless you're saying he suddenly jumped from pure good to pure evil in the space of a few days.

      Again non-canon. Besides the games have him creating the Spirit Bomb using "stupid energy" which is different to what Goku uses. Nope, manga never said Cell was pure evil. He said (and I quote Viz manga) "I could do a Genki-dama if I wanted to", nothing about purity.

      That whole "to turn Super Saiyan needs to be pure" got debunked ages ago. 1) Vegeta was not pure when he transformed, as he was less evil than he was in the Saiyan Saga. 2) Trunks can't be pure like the Son family, as neither of his parents are pure (Bulma can't ride the nimbus). 3) The real reason Vegeta couldn't trigger the transformation is because it comes from necessity and not desire. You need to be angry to change, not simply want it.

      Pure as in pure good. Gohan couldn't be harmed by the Spirit Bomb because there's no evil in him for it to target. If Frieza and Kid Buu are pure, then why did the Spirit Bomb work on them eventually? They delayed its effects but it still damaged them.


      I'm not even going to bother talking about Zeno because we've already been over that a million times and I already know how that goes.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: A non-canon game that doesn't even individually name the races correctly. They did that just for convenience of categorizing characters. There is no way Zamasu is pure after he became Black, unless you're saying he suddenly jumped from pure good to pure evil in the space of a few days.

      Again non-canon. Besides the games have him creating the Spirit Bomb using "stupid energy" which is different to what Goku uses. Nope, manga never said Cell was pure evil. He said (and I quote Viz manga) "I could do a Genki-dama if I wanted to", nothing about purity.

      That whole "to turn Super Saiyan needs to be pure" got debunked ages ago. 1) Vegeta was not pure when he transformed, as he was less evil than he was in the Saiyan Saga. 2) Trunks can't be pure like the Son family, as neither of his parents are pure (Bulma can't ride the nimbus). 3) The real reason Vegeta couldn't trigger the transformation is because it comes from necessity and not desire. You need to be angry to change, not simply want it.

      Pure as in pure good. Gohan couldn't be harmed by the Spirit Bomb because there's no evil in him for it to target. If Frieza and Kid Buu are pure, then why did the Spirit Bomb work on them eventually? They delayed its effects but it still damaged them.


      I'm not even going to bother talking about Zeno because we've already been over that a million times and I already know how that goes.

      1. I've seen and heard of people go from pure good to pure evil in a heartbeat, actually. Take Anakin Skywalker, for example, being conceived by the Force, and thus obviously would have been considered pure of heart. Or even Satan, who WAS initially pure good until God created humanity, then turned to pure evil at the snap of a finger or thereabouts (since took about a week for him to turn). Oh yeah, and also Weiss the Immaculate from Dirge of Cerberus (which as the name implied, he was conceived without any taint of negative Lifestream). And quite frankly, considering Fused Zamasu didn't have heart purity, I'm doubtful it was for ease of categorization (otherwise, why even bother adding them in the first place). And BTW, making tea is stated to be a sign of heart purity, and if anything, the fact that Black and Future Zamasu STILL brewed good tea suggests that they DID retain heart purity, even in the anime. And for the record, if I were Toriyama and I saw them try to do that in the game, I'd probably fire the guy, if not do worse to him, not tolerating even a slight deviation from my vision of the series.

      2. Actually, he did, at least in the VIZ manga, something about him doing so due to a heart of pure evil. Just look at TVTropes, which actually talks about Cell there.

      3. a), Vegeta specifically stated he was pure evil in the manga. In the anime, he at least mentioned he got it when weakened from barely repelling a meteor storm, but that wasn't the case in the manga. b), seriously? Just because his parents weren't pure of heart, that automatically means Trunks must not be pure of heart? By that logic, Goku isn't pure of heart precisely BECAUSE he was born to Bardock, who most certainly wasn't pure of heart by any stretch; and c), that was later in the manga, though, and at the time Vegeta said that, that bit wasn't even revealed (not to mention the only time it was even shown that determination was that was the anime due to the filler sequence of how he got it). Besides, Goten and Trunks got the forms without even being implied to have gotten angry, and don't get me started on how Caulifla didn't even use anger at all to transform in Super.

      4. Frieza couldn't even deflect the Spirit Bomb, however, even explicitly stating he couldn't redirect it (how he survived that I still don't know), and that one was even WEAKER than the one that consumed Kid Buu. Sorry, but no, it definitely had to do with heart purity, since he's the only one who actually managed to deflect it. Not even in the movies or GT did the Spirit Bomb ever get outright deflected by the villains. Heck, not even Zamasu when he was fused (and that's pretty much the only Zamasu form barring possibly Infinite Zamasu that lacked heart purity).

      Either way, considering Zeno is seen laughing and taking joy at erasing universes (or have you forgotten how he acted to Universe 9 and 10 being erased), I'm pretty sure he fails to qualify as pure of heart at this point by your logic, since Goku, who had heart purity, did not constantly kill people and laugh about it, especially not innocents.

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    • Yeah, no. Anakin was never pure, period. The Council immediately sensed a darkness in him which was why they were initially reluctant to train him as a Jedi. It's very apparent throughout the Clone Wars that Anakin frequently comes close to crossing the moral boundaries and giving in to the darkness. While Vader wasn't pure evil either, with Luke explicitly saying he could still feel good in him and he was right.

      Cell's purity was never brought up in the manga. Even if he could by some chance perform the Spirit Bomb, it's more likely due to him using Goku's cells to find a loophole into making himself seem pure.

      A) Yeah he did. And we should believe him because Vegeta has never been wrong before.. oh wait, yes he has. There have been plenty of Super Saiyans who were not pure. Is Broly pure? Is Caulifla pure? Purity isn't just some thing you can find everywhere, it's a very rare thing to come across that only arises through special circumstances. B) Well why else would Gohan and Goten come out pure? Because he was always exposed to an environment with pure parents. Goku didn't grow up with Bardock, he grew up with the benevolent (mostly good) Grandpa Gohan before being left to fend for himself. Trunks would have been exposed to all sorts of pervy things from Bulma and Dr. Briefs. C) Umm yeah, Goten was angry, Chichi kicked him and he got angry. Anger was the number one cause for triggering the transformation shown many many times. Caulifla was the only instance where it wasn't, which is why fans hated that scene so much.

      What Frieza did was no different to Kid Buu. Push back the Spirit Bomb, only Kid Buu did it to a greater extent with less difficulty. For starters, the knock the Spirit Bomb back was a filler thing, in the manga he just held it back. I'll ask again, if Kid is pure then why did it work on him at all? Gohan could bounce it back because he's immune to the Spirit Bomb due to his purity.

      Well good job, you just destroyed your own argument. You repeatedly said Zamasu was pure, but then you said he can't deflect the Spirit Bomb which was supposed to be something only pure characters could do.

      Actually Goku did. Back in Dragon Ball there were heaps of minor villains such as the Red Ribbon soldiers or King Piccolo's children who Goku would kill, and often while laughing at how much fun he was having. All that is when it was made clear on several occasions that Kid Goku was completely pure. Not so different from Zeno now is he?

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Yeah, no. Anakin was never pure, period. The Council immediately sensed a darkness in him which was why they were initially reluctant to train him as a Jedi. It's very apparent throughout the Clone Wars that Anakin frequently comes close to crossing the moral boundaries and giving in to the darkness. While Vader wasn't pure evil either, with Luke explicitly saying he could still feel good in him and he was right.

      Cell's purity was never brought up in the manga. Even if he could by some chance perform the Spirit Bomb, it's more likely due to him using Goku's cells to find a loophole into making himself seem pure.

      A) Yeah he did. And we should believe him because Vegeta has never been wrong before.. oh wait, yes he has. There have been plenty of Super Saiyans who were not pure. Is Broly pure? Is Caulifla pure? Purity isn't just some thing you can find everywhere, it's a very rare thing to come across that only arises through special circumstances. B) Well why else would Gohan and Goten come out pure? Because he was always exposed to an environment with pure parents. Goku didn't grow up with Bardock, he grew up with the benevolent (mostly good) Grandpa Gohan before being left to fend for himself. Trunks would have been exposed to all sorts of pervy things from Bulma and Dr. Briefs. C) Umm yeah, Goten was angry, Chichi kicked him and he got angry. Anger was the number one cause for triggering the transformation shown many many times. Caulifla was the only instance where it wasn't, which is why fans hated that scene so much.

      What Frieza did was no different to Kid Buu. Push back the Spirit Bomb, only Kid Buu did it to a greater extent with less difficulty. For starters, the knock the Spirit Bomb back was a filler thing, in the manga he just held it back. I'll ask again, if Kid is pure then why did it work on him at all? Gohan could bounce it back because he's immune to the Spirit Bomb due to his purity.

      Well good job, you just destroyed your own argument. You repeatedly said Zamasu was pure, but then you said he can't deflect the Spirit Bomb which was supposed to be something only pure characters could do.

      Actually Goku did. Back in Dragon Ball there were heaps of minor villains such as the Red Ribbon soldiers or King Piccolo's children who Goku would kill, and often while laughing at how much fun he was having. All that is when it was made clear on several occasions that Kid Goku was completely pure. Not so different from Zeno now is he?

      Technically, none of the Jedi were pure either if we get down to it. Heck, Mace Windu literally channels the Dark Side into his Vaapad technique, and he's a sitting member of the council. And don't get me started on how they planned on trying to get Anakin to spy on Palpatine which, in the novel, had the partial motive of pretty much sabotaging Anakin's friendship with Palpatine. And for the record, I fail to see how "pure" people would willingly lie to people and even imply that absolute truth doesn't exist. In some comics, they even went as far as to try and conduct assassinations and commit genocides against Sith, not to mention kept a secret prison. And for the record, in order for the Force to conceive of Anakin via Shmi specifically to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, they'd need to make him pure of heart, the whole immaculate conception bit.

      As far as Vegeta, A. Who said anything about whether or not he's wrong? I was just saying that in the manga, he made clear that he ultimately got the form due to being pure evil. And for the record, technically, Broly CAN be considered pure evil, at least. Besides, by that logic, everyone was wrong about anger being required to channel the Super Saiyan form considering that Caulifla didn't even NEED anger to transform in the first place, just spasms in her back for some reason. B. Technically, since Grampa Gohan implied that he was about as dirty as Master Roshi, I'm not entirely sure that he'd qualify as truly pure. And besides, considering that Master Roshi, one of the biggest perverts in the anime, acted as a father figure to Goku after Grampa Gohan got killed by him accidentally, I'm pretty sure Goku would have long lost his purity by now, not retained it, by your logic. And for the record, his training session with Chichi wasn't even the first time Goten turned SSJ (he explicitly stated he didn't remember the first time he transformed when asked by Gohan, meaning that can't have been his first time, especially when he acknowledged Chichi knew about the transformation, and in fact, she's the reason he was reluctant to transform afterward due to calling him a monster.), so don't try to use that.

      And as far as Frieza, what WAS different is that Frieza FAILED to push it back, even explicitly stating he could not push it back after some effort, while Kid Buu, at least in the anime, actually DID push it back.

      As far as Zamasu, I never said that Zamasu as a whole lacked purity of heart, JUST Fused Zamasu. It's already made clear in Fusions and to a certain extent the anime that Future Zamasu and Goku Black DID retain heart purity (we see in a later scene that they were brewing tea and it turning out delicious, and Gowasu made it clear that such indicates purity of heart.).

      Yeah, actually, Goku didn't, certainly not when he stormed the Red Ribbon Army base, he wasn't happy at all (and for good reason, considering he was trying to avenge Bora after the Red Ribbon Army indirectly got him killed via Tao Pai Pai), let alone having fun killing them. And besides, by that logic, Frieza and Cell must have been pure of heart just like Zamasu and Goku simply because they had fun killing people (and last time I checked, having fun killing people matches up with sadism in definition, so technically, Zeno and Goku should NOT be listed as pure of heart going by the definition listed on the Heart Purity article).

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    • Your point being? You brought Anakin up as an example and now you agree it's been invalidated.

      1) The whole "pure heart" thing was something Goku theorised and was never proven by any Super Saiyan expert. There's simply far too many Super Saiyans right now and too much of a coincidence for them all to be pure. Answer this: Was Vegeta in the Android Saga less evil than he was in the Saiyan Saga? He clearly was, so he can't possibly be pure evil.

      2) But not Caulifla. She's quite obviously in the grey area between good and evil. Vegeta literally taught Cabba to turn Super Saiyan by tapping into his anger then told him to "remember that feeling". Cabba remembered it and interpreted it as tingling at the back. It's not really clear what Caulifla was feeling emotionally, but that could easily be one interpretation of anger.

      3) Grandpa Gohan never taught Goku any of that pervy stuff. In fact the only slightly perverted thing he did was wanting to date some lady ghosts in the afterlife. That doesn't make him any worse than Krillin who could wield the Spirit Bomb. Another factor into why Goku remains pure is because he's too stupid to comprehend dirty thoughts. For years, Goku didn't even understand the concept of private parts or why it was wrong to grope others. Goku sees a girl's boobs and he does not think dirty thoughts like others, that's why he's pure.

      4) Are you f**king kidding me? That was literally the scene that Goten couldn't remember when he first turned Super Saiyan. He said "I don't remember" and the scene plays, I think even the wiki specifically said it was that scene. It's very obvious Goten hadn't changed before, as Chi-Chi called him a monster and then he looks at himself in confusion not knowing what she was talking about. He clearly had no idea what a Super Saiyan was before that incident.

      Because Kid Buu is stronger. Pushing back a Spirit Bomb is all about a power struggle. Goku was struggling initially to push it back, then he turns Super Saiyan and he wins.

      So Fusion Zamasu isn't pure, even though both of his components allegedly are pure? Yep, good logic there man.

      Yes he did. When he flies over on his nimbus he says "time for some fun" before killing the scout outside RR HQ with a grin on his face. He was also giggling as he attacked Muscle Tower. No, Frieza and Cell specifically target innocents and want to see them suffer because it amuses them. Goku and Zeno simply don't know better. If it were up to me I probably wouldn't list Goku as pure given everything he's done, but going by in-universe Dragon Ball definitions both Goku and Zeno are deemed innocent and pure.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Your point being? You brought Anakin up as an example and now you agree it's been invalidated.

      1) The whole "pure heart" thing was something Goku theorised and was never proven by any Super Saiyan expert. There's simply far too many Super Saiyans right now and too much of a coincidence for them all to be pure. Answer this: Was Vegeta in the Android Saga less evil than he was in the Saiyan Saga? He clearly was, so he can't possibly be pure evil.

      2) But not Caulifla. She's quite obviously in the grey area between good and evil. Vegeta literally taught Cabba to turn Super Saiyan by tapping into his anger then told him to "remember that feeling". Cabba remembered it and interpreted it as tingling at the back. It's not really clear what Caulifla was feeling emotionally, but that could easily be one interpretation of anger.

      3) Grandpa Gohan never taught Goku any of that pervy stuff. In fact the only slightly perverted thing he did was wanting to date some lady ghosts in the afterlife. That doesn't make him any worse than Krillin who could wield the Spirit Bomb. Another factor into why Goku remains pure is because he's too stupid to comprehend dirty thoughts. For years, Goku didn't even understand the concept of private parts or why it was wrong to grope others. Goku sees a girl's boobs and he does not think dirty thoughts like others, that's why he's pure.

      4) Are you f**king kidding me? That was literally the scene that Goten couldn't remember when he first turned Super Saiyan. He said "I don't remember" and the scene plays, I think even the wiki specifically said it was that scene. It's very obvious Goten hadn't changed before, as Chi-Chi called him a monster and then he looks at himself in confusion not knowing what she was talking about. He clearly had no idea what a Super Saiyan was before that incident.

      Because Kid Buu is stronger. Pushing back a Spirit Bomb is all about a power struggle. Goku was struggling initially to push it back, then he turns Super Saiyan and he wins.

      So Fusion Zamasu isn't pure, even though both of his components allegedly are pure? Yep, good logic there man.

      Yes he did. When he flies over on his nimbus he says "time for some fun" before killing the scout outside RR HQ with a grin on his face. He was also giggling as he attacked Muscle Tower. No, Frieza and Cell specifically target innocents and want to see them suffer because it amuses them. Goku and Zeno simply don't know better. If it were up to me I probably wouldn't list Goku as pure given everything he's done, but going by in-universe Dragon Ball definitions both Goku and Zeno are deemed innocent and pure.

      Fine, point taken regarding Anakin and the first example (though considering Vegeta was one of the five Saiyans to help Goku undergo the Super Saiyan God transformation, something that specifically required five pure-hearted Saiyans to achieve, I'd be hesitant to buy that anyway). However, considering that the Flying Nimbus does not allow you to fly the Flying Nimbus if you read even ONE perverted magazine (as evidenced by what happened to Master Roshi after he tried to demonstrate the Flying Nimbus to Goku, and considering he even owned it, he was pure of heart once ago), my point there still stands.

      Also, just because Chichi was shocked and he didn't know what a Super Saiyan was doesn't mean that was his first time transforming into it. And for the record, if he didn't remember his first time, how could he remember that Chi-Chi denounced the form as a monster and even told Gohan as much?

      And actually, Zeno DOES know better, considering he erased Zamasu at least in part out of disgust for his Zero Mortals Plan. If he truly didn't know better, he would have treated the situation like Majin Buu did when he killed innocents before Mr. Satan set him straight (in other words, not only would he have in fact approved of the Zero Mortals Plan, he'd assume it was a game to be played without any awareness of the moral rammifications of it). And also, Goku DOES know better than to kill innocents, and in fact, at least in the anime and movies as well as the FUNimation dub, he has distaste for the killing of innocents.

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    • That ritual required "righteous Saiyans" not pure. Even BoG Vegeta clearly had plenty of evil thoughts in him, he wasn't that different from when Babidi turned him into a Majin at which point Babidi said Vegeta's heart was "dripping with evil". Only if you read the perverted magazine and think dirty thoughts. I doubt Goku has ever desired sex in his entire life considering he's never even kissed Chi-Chi before.

      He would have had plenty of times after that to learn what a Super Saiyan was and what Chi-Chi was talking about. The anime would not randomly drop a scene right after Gohan and Goten were talking about his first time.

      Yep, I knew you'd bring that up again. Let's see if I can put something fresh on the table. For starters, how would he even know about the Zero Mortals Plan? All Zeno saw was an ugly sky and a ruined Earth. Zeno probably hasn't even visited or seen Earth prior to that. When Zeno sees something he doesn't like, he erases or threatens to erase it. No more complexity past those thoughts. All he cares about is all the universes must be in accordance to his specifications, and if they're not then he gets unhappy. Good or evil is of no concern to him.

      Yes innocents. But Goku has killed plenty of not bad guys in his youth and has enjoyed it. Not all of that is out of justice, as he has a lot of fun along the way when he beats them up. He's evidently matured by Z where he tries not to kill anyone period, unless he's forced to.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: That ritual required "righteous Saiyans" not pure. Even BoG Vegeta clearly had plenty of evil thoughts in him, he wasn't that different from when Babidi turned him into a Majin at which point Babidi said Vegeta's heart was "dripping with evil". Only if you read the perverted magazine and think dirty thoughts. I doubt Goku has ever desired sex in his entire life considering he's never even kissed Chi-Chi before.

      He would have had plenty of times after that to learn what a Super Saiyan was and what Chi-Chi was talking about. The anime would not randomly drop a scene right after Gohan and Goten were talking about his first time.

      Yep, I knew you'd bring that up again. Let's see if I can put something fresh on the table. For starters, how would he even know about the Zero Mortals Plan? All Zeno saw was an ugly sky and a ruined Earth. Zeno probably hasn't even visited or seen Earth prior to that. When Zeno sees something he doesn't like, he erases or threatens to erase it. No more complexity past those thoughts. All he cares about is all the universes must be in accordance to his specifications, and if they're not then he gets unhappy. Good or evil is of no concern to him.

      Yes innocents. But Goku has killed plenty of not bad guys in his youth and has enjoyed it. Not all of that is out of justice, as he has a lot of fun along the way when he beats them up. He's evidently matured by Z where he tries not to kill anyone period, unless he's forced to.

      1. Actually, in Z, the anime anyways, he actually HAS kissed Chi-Chi. Besides, he had to have SOME desire for sex since otherwise, Gohan and Goten would NOT exist (how ELSE would they have been procreated?).

      2. Like I said, if he truly didn't remember, there's no reason for him to not only flash back to when he transformed, but also specifically note that Chi-Chi not only knew about the transformation, but that she was the reason he was reluctant to transform beforehand. And considering Chi-Chi didn't WANT Super Saiyans among her family (she wasn't even happy when Gohan did so during the Cell Games), why would she even bother to talk about the form? Not to mention right before Goten transformed into one in front of Gohan, Gohan specifically doubted Goten could transform into a Super Saiyan, so no, he really had no real reason to know about it before his sparring with Chi-Chi.

      3. Let me remind you that in the manga, Future Zamasu specifically mentioned that if Future Zeno does find out about the Zero Mortals Plan he and Black concocted, they're dead meat, and even deeply considered fleeing from Future Trunks timeline just in case Zeno found out, which if anything strongly implies that Zeno IS aware of right and wrong to such an extent that he'd have Zamasu KILLED if he found out about it. And even Future Zeno's Wiki article specifically says, and I quote, "In Future Zeno's first appearance, he was shown to be very serious and decided to wipe out the whole world of Future Trunks' timeline out of pure disgust for the monstrous actions of Zamasu, and the fact that he found his constant laugh very annoying." That bolded line wouldn't even make sense if he had no concept of morality. If anything, he'd react like Majin Buu did and even aid Infinite Zamasu in killing any remaining mortals simply because he treated it like a game. And speaking of the manga, let me show you this scene where he was planning on erasing more universes.

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      And that wasn't even any different from the Zero Mortals Plan. Actually, no, it's even WORSE.

      As far as Goku, let me remind you that when Bora was killed by Tao Pai Pai, he intended to avenge Bora by taking out Tao and the Red Ribbon Army, and in the King Piccolo Saga, he also was motivated by wanting to avenge Krillin. And let me remind you that, even as a kid, he deliberately avoided killing innocent civilians, while Zeno didn't even flinch at the mere thought of killing a LOT of civilians with his erase ability during the Universe Survival Arc and was shown laughing as he erased plenty of universes. The differences between Goku and Zeno are like night and day, similar to the differences between Mark and Henry Evans from The Good Son. Heck, in the manga, he even was explicitly shown planning to erase more universes simply because he can't be bothered with caring for them, and this was despite even Zamasu implying that Zeno would never have supported the Zero Mortals Plan.

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    • It could be more of a circumstantial thing. They got in bed and it just happened. Goku does not seem to regularly bang Chi-Chi at any rate. Chi-Chi has kissed Goku before, but it's never been a two-way on the lips kiss.

      I don't think that was Goten flashing back, that was for the audience's benefit. Of course Chi-Chi knew about, she knew about it from Gohan. Why not? At some point she would have explained why she had an outburst to Goten. That's how a mother disciplines a child. She also went off endlessly about Gohan looking like a delinquent, so she'd do the same to Goten too. Of course Gohan didn't know, Gohan is busy with studying and doesn't spend much time with Goten. The reason he was surprised was because Super Saiyans are supposed to be legendary warriors with Goku, Vegeta, and himself training very hard to achieve this, yet Goten and Trunks does it with ease, a "bargain sale on Super Saiyans" as Vegeta puts it. Goten didn't even learn how to fly at that stage, so why should Gohan think he could turn Super Saiyan.

      TBF, everyone acts that way about Zeno about everything. Beerus keeps shitting himself whenever Zeno appears or is brought up, worried that even the slightest thing wrong would set him off. So of course Zamasu is worried about something on that scale. Just because Zeno kills Zamasu doesn't mean he has a clear concise understanding of right and wrong, or at least doesn't have the same understanding as mortals do. He didn't like what Zamasu did to the sky, that doesn't mean he went deeper than that to "what Zamasu did was wrong and therefore he must be stopped". Pure disgust? He didn't even look angry. So if he does know it's wrong and wants to stop wrongdoers, then why does he erase universes in the ToP? You can't both want to stop evil and commit evil yourself, that's contradictory.

      Not really. Erasure is pretty quick and painless. Black makes sure to cause as much suffering as possible before hand, prolonging and tormenting Trunks while he carried out his genocide. Very different from what Zeno does. Plus Zeno isn't doing it out of some misplaced sense of justice, he's just a force of nature and decides its time for some universes to end. Entropy will consume the universe and send it into heatdeath, and in Dragon Ball entropy is named Zeno.

      Sure he had those motivations, but that doesn't change the fact that as a kid Goku has fun when killing. When he was training with Roshi, at one point he had a run-in with evil Launch and KOed her, to which point Roshi commented Goku was so simplistic he didn't hold back against women. But as an adult he must've picked that up as he no longer does that. There is no one to tell or explain to Zeno what he does is wrong, because everyone is too afraid too. I'm pretty confident Goku will want to have a private talk with Zeno at some point after the Tournament, at which he may bring up erasing universes being not cool. You can believe Zeno will erase him if you want.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: It could be more of a circumstantial thing. They got in bed and it just happened. Goku does not seem to regularly bang Chi-Chi at any rate. Chi-Chi has kissed Goku before, but it's never been a two-way on the lips kiss.

      I don't think that was Goten flashing back, that was for the audience's benefit. Of course Chi-Chi knew about, she knew about it from Gohan. Why not? At some point she would have explained why she had an outburst to Goten. That's how a mother disciplines a child. She also went off endlessly about Gohan looking like a delinquent, so she'd do the same to Goten too. Of course Gohan didn't know, Gohan is busy with studying and doesn't spend much time with Goten. The reason he was surprised was because Super Saiyans are supposed to be legendary warriors with Goku, Vegeta, and himself training very hard to achieve this, yet Goten and Trunks does it with ease, a "bargain sale on Super Saiyans" as Vegeta puts it. Goten didn't even learn how to fly at that stage, so why should Gohan think he could turn Super Saiyan.

      TBF, everyone acts that way about Zeno about everything. Beerus keeps shitting himself whenever Zeno appears or is brought up, worried that even the slightest thing wrong would set him off. So of course Zamasu is worried about something on that scale. Just because Zeno kills Zamasu doesn't mean he has a clear concise understanding of right and wrong, or at least doesn't have the same understanding as mortals do. He didn't like what Zamasu did to the sky, that doesn't mean he went deeper than that to "what Zamasu did was wrong and therefore he must be stopped". Pure disgust? He didn't even look angry. So if he does know it's wrong and wants to stop wrongdoers, then why does he erase universes in the ToP? You can't both want to stop evil and commit evil yourself, that's contradictory.

      Not really. Erasure is pretty quick and painless. Black makes sure to cause as much suffering as possible before hand, prolonging and tormenting Trunks while he carried out his genocide. Very different from what Zeno does. Plus Zeno isn't doing it out of some misplaced sense of justice, he's just a force of nature and decides its time for some universes to end. Entropy will consume the universe and send it into heatdeath, and in Dragon Ball entropy is named Zeno.

      Sure he had those motivations, but that doesn't change the fact that as a kid Goku has fun when killing. When he was training with Roshi, at one point he had a run-in with evil Launch and KOed her, to which point Roshi commented Goku was so simplistic he didn't hold back against women. But as an adult he must've picked that up as he no longer does that. There is no one to tell or explain to Zeno what he does is wrong, because everyone is too afraid too. I'm pretty confident Goku will want to have a private talk with Zeno at some point after the Tournament, at which he may bring up erasing universes being not cool. You can believe Zeno will erase him if you want.

      1. Actually, it HAS been a two-way kiss at least once in DBZ, or at least its anime.

      2. No, actually, that's not an audience benefit flashback scene, since right beforehand, Goten when Gohan asked if Chi-Chi knew about the transformation nodded, and in his thoughts said "She knows, alright", then after the flashback, Goten looks glum and Gohan asks what's the matter, with Goten admitting that Chi-Chi forbade him from using the transformation again and even referred to it as a monster, causing some bemusement from Gohan. That would not work as an audience benefit only flashback, since the characters directly alluded to it in-universe. In order for him to not remember his first transformation, he shouldn't even REMEMBER Chi-Chi calling him a monster.

      3. Actually, it's not contradictory at all, since the Graeco-Roman gods both wanted to stop evil AND fully embraced evil multiple times (probably the worst offender was Zeus/Jupiter, the God of Law and Justice among others), and besides which there's also Charnel from Sacrifice, who literally did want to stop evil, yet at the same time DID embrace his evil nature. Heck, there's even a trope name for it, it's called "Even Evil Has Standards."

      4. Yeah, both the manga and the anime had the Erase technique appear ESPECIALLY painful going by what happened to Zamasu (especially the manga. I'm trying to hunt it down on GameFAQs, but I know that there was a page showing Zamasu being erased and has his eyes looking upwards while yelling). And based on how Roh acted, it certainly wasn't painless either.

      5. Yeah, I doubt it. Considering Whis specifically told Goku against trying to talk sense into Zeno, it's pretty clear if Goku tried that, Zeno would go "You're supposed to be my friend! That means you are supposed to cave to whatever I say as my friend, and since you even told me what I did is bad, I'll erase you!" And make no mistake, after what he did to Frost when he tried to interfere from the stands, exactly what Whis warned Krillin about earlier, he WOULD end up doing exactly that. Besides, Bergamo tried exactly that to Zeno, and you know how THAT turned out (it certainly wasn't like how Majin Buu was swayed by Mr. Satan, that much is clear).

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    • Fine, I'll ignore that statement in Super. But still applicable for Goku to be devoid of lewd thoughts regardless of whether he has had sex.

      Look the wiki page specifically said the first time Goten transformed was when chichi kicked him during training. In that case it may have been Goten remembered the flashback but didn't realize that was the first time for him. His confusion clearly shows he did not know of Super Saiyan before that.

      Yeah but even evil has standards does not apply when you are trying to paint someone as the worst being in existence. If they have standards then they are not the worst.

      You are confusing erase with Hakai. Beerus' Hakai causes pain but erase does not. Roh screamed because he was scared of dying. Nobody else screamed afterwards aside from the Rat god, U10 bowed their heads, while U2 and U6 all went out smiling.

      If that was the case then Zeno would have erased Goku long ago. Probably as soon as they first met when Goku tried to shake his hand. If he's lived for this long then he's not erasing him for his personal actions.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Fine, I'll ignore that statement in Super. But still applicable for Goku to be devoid of lewd thoughts regardless of whether he has had sex.

      Look the wiki page specifically said the first time Goten transformed was when chichi kicked him during training. In that case it may have been Goten remembered the flashback but didn't realize that was the first time for him. His confusion clearly shows he did not know of Super Saiyan before that.

      Yeah but even evil has standards does not apply when you are trying to paint someone as the worst being in existence. If they have standards then they are not the worst.

      You are confusing erase with Hakai. Beerus' Hakai causes pain but erase does not. Roh screamed because he was scared of dying. Nobody else screamed afterwards aside from the Rat god, U10 bowed their heads, while U2 and U6 all went out smiling.

      If that was the case then Zeno would have erased Goku long ago. Probably as soon as they first met when Goku tried to shake his hand. If he's lived for this long then he's not erasing him for his personal actions.

      1. Actually, no, him flashing back would indicate he remembered it, while he specifically said he DIDN'T remember his first time. And fine, I'll edit the wiki page when I have the time.

      2. Yeah, actually, even various Complete Monsters have had Even Evil Has Standards moments. Take for example Palpatine in Star Wars: He is treated as the most evil person in existence, yet Mara Jade indicated that even HE would never have approved of using illusions to break people. And don't get me started on how Colonel Volgin reacted when he learned that Snake not only posed as his boyfriend Raikov, but may have at least hurt him (and based on Raikov's character model lacking any noticeable scars, while EVA did have scars, it's pretty clear that even regarding his sadistic nature, Volgin was unwilling to physically harm Raikov). And Chancellor Ardyn Izunia actually expressed disgust at one point at the destruction of an entire settlement by the Niflheim Empire, genuine disgust at that, and yet he turned out to be even WORSE than the empire. And let's not forget Joker's reaction upon killing Sarah Essen in No Man's Land, where he didn't smile at all, let alone laugh, which heavily implied that even HE didn't approve with his killing her, or at the very least how he killed her. Heck, going by Dragon Ball Z, Frieza actually expressed genuine disgust for what the Zenos did to Universe 9, and he's among the worst of the worst. And need I remind you what exactly drove Super Buu to basically come into existence?

      3. Actually, no, I'm not: When Zeno used erase on Zamasu, he was seen screaming in pain in the anime, and even in the manga, Zamasu was yelling "I, I can't... LET IT END LIKE THIS", and his face was contorted in a way that looked like he was in excruciating agony, and by that point, only his head has yet to be erased. That didn't look even remotely painless.

      4. Shaking hands with him is completely different than Goku telling him off for erasing universes, however. There's no harm to shaking hands, but being told what you're doing is wrong is bound to upset him to try and kill anyone who dares to accuse him of doing wrong.

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    • Goten didn't remember, because he didn't know that was his first time. When you look at yourself in confusion it's obvious you don't know what just happened. It wouldn't be until Goten had a mirror that he found out what she was talking about. I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.

      If Evil Has Standards, then there is room for them to be more evil i.e. the person that is worse than them. Not that stupid Frieza crap again. Frieza was disgusted at how the Zenos were so simultaneously cute and destructive at the same time. Frieza would not bat an eye at universe erasure otherwise.

      Then why didn't everyone scream in pain in the ToP? Fine IDK, maybe Zeno can choose to make it painful or painless.

      You said "considering Whis specifically told Goku against..." for several actions, which Goku had all done and survived. They thought Goku would be erased for taking to Zeno, visiting Zeno, calling him Zen-chan. In fact Goku went to Zen Palace and up front demanded Zeno hurry up with the Tournament, which was really surprusing that Zeno didn't get mad at him.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Goten didn't remember, because he didn't know that was his first time. When you look at yourself in confusion it's obvious you don't know what just happened. It wouldn't be until Goten had a mirror that he found out what she was talking about. I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.

      If Evil Has Standards, then there is room for them to be more' evil i.e. the person that is wise than them. Not that stupid Frieza crap again. Frieza was disgusted at how the Zenos were so simultaneously cute and destructive at the same time. Frieza would not bat an eye at universe erasure otherwise.

      Then why didn't everyone scream in pain in the ToP? Fine IDK, maybe Zeno can choose to make it painful or painless.

      You said "considering Whis specifically told Goku against..." for several actions, which Goku had all done and survived. They thought Goku would be erased for taking to Zeno, visiting Zeno, calling him Zen-chan. In fact Goku went to Zen Palace and up front demanded Zeno hurry up with the Tournament, which was really surprusing that Zeno didn't get mad at him.

      1. He could also just have easily not known about what a Super Saiyan was, considering that Vegeta Jr. didn't seem to know what it was despite being familiar with the transformation itself.

      2. Seriously? He didn't mind Earth before Trunks killed him, and the fact that he said they were cute and destructive at the same time means he was also appalled by their destructive nature, not JUST the fact that they were cute. And like I said, there have been plenty of Complete Monsters outside of Dragon Ball who HAVE embraced "Even Evil Has Standards".

      2 1/2. Who says they have to scream to be in pain? Sometimes it's so excruciatingly painful that they can't even utter a sound as a result (like, for example, what happened when Sideshow Bob fell groin first on a pipe in Brother from Another Series).

      3. Yeah, well, Whis was right about what happened if one interferes from the bench going by what happened to Froze. And quite frankly, I think the fact that Goku DIDN'T bother to press the issue further should have been a pretty big hint that Zeno WOULD have erased him right then and there, as otherwise, he would have gone against Whis's advice (and besides, do you really think Goku would convince him otherwise? Bergamo couldn't even do that).

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    • That's not the point. He didn't know what ChiChi was taking about at that moment in time. Even if I go along with your theory that it wasn't the first time out changed, then I can still make the argument that being kicked by ChiChi made him angry enough to trigger the change on that day.

      If you pay attention at all to Frieza's time in hell, he hates all the cute stuff there. While blowing up planets has always delighted him in the past. It's really not difficult to figure out Frieza hates the Zenos for being cute not destructive.

      What tf? If you're in enough pain you cannot maintain a smile or a silent expression. That's common knowledge, unless you've never been in pain before.

      Because Frost (that's his name) broke the rules. Goku hasn't. Well actually a much bigger reason why Goku didn't press it further is because we wouldn't get a story arc. Dragon Ball has a major case of "we could have avoided this plot", such as letting the Androids get activated, Cell reaching his perfect form, and releasing Majin Buu. At the end of this saga I'll bet there's going to be something like Goku going "I should have just done that". HA, Beragamo did convince him. Zeno agreed to his bet, but Goku had to be an idiot and put his pride over the lives of others.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: That's not the point. He didn't know what ChiChi was taking about at that moment in time. Even if I go along with your theory that it wasn't the first time out changed, then I can still make the argument that being kicked by ChiChi made him angry enough to trigger the change on that day.

      If you pay attention at all to Frieza's time in hell, he hates all the cute stuff there. While blowing up planets has always delighted him in the past. It's really not difficult to figure out Frieza hates the Zenos for being cute not destructive.

      What tf? If you're in enough pain you cannot maintain a smile or a silent expression. That's common knowledge, unless you've never been in pain before.

      Because Frost (that's his name) broke the rules. Goku hasn't. Well actually a much bigger reason why Goku didn't press it further is because we wouldn't get a story arc. Dragon Ball has a major case of "we could have avoided this plot", such as letting the Androids get activated, Cell reaching his perfect form, and releasing Majin Buu. At the end of this saga I'll bet there's going to be something like Goku going "I should have just done that". HA, Beragamo did convince him. Zeno agreed to his bet, but Goku had to be an idiot and put his pride over the lives of others.

      1. Except there's been at least one instance of characters transforming into a Super Saiyan at least once afterward and not knowing what it's called (case in point, Vegeta Jr.), so we can't assume that Goten's confusion at the name meant that was his first time (and besides, I'm pretty sure if that WAS his first time, he wouldn't have said he didn't remember his first time).

      2. If it was simply the fact that they were cute, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have needed to be angry at their destructive acts. In fact, he'd probably be sickened by the sight of them even BEFORE Zeno used erasure. Not to mention, technically, he said he intended to "rule" over them, while knowing Frieza's time in Hell, he'd go so far as to outright DESTROY any cute aspects if given the opportunity.

      3. I've been in pain before, actually, but I've also seen instances where someone is in excruciating enough pain that they can't even utter a sound and just stare blankly out. Case in point: https://youtu.be/rW7kx0uCNmk?t=23 Also, Gollum falling into lava (he certainly didn't make any sounds when he made contact with it, unless you count sizzling sounds as him making sounds).

      4. Ah, no, Bergamo DIDN'T convince Zeno, at all. If he did, he'd react EXACTLY like Buu did when Mr. Satan told him murdering people was wrong, where he'd cancel the tournament easily, not even force Bergamo and Goku to fight, just cancel it quick and swear never to erase anyone ever again. What Zeno did was closer to what Commander Red did to General Blue by giving him "a way out." The fact that he told Goku to go all out (and present Zeno at least was fully aware of what Goku's true power was compared to Bergamo considering that, you know, he first MET Goku during that tournament earlier). Not to mention the nightmare fuel page for Super on TVTropes specifically noted the possibility that Zeno was just toying with Bergamo. Don't believe me? Here's what it says:

      ◦ An even worse interpretation in episode 81: Bergamo states that if he wins his fight against Goku, then Zen'o would eliminate the "universes get destroyed if they lose" rule. They oblige, but then says that Goku shouldn't show any signs of holding back, or he'll destroy his universe as well. Considering Zen'o of the present knows how strong Goku really is, it's possible that he didn't want to keep his end of the bargain anyway: he just wanted to toy with Bergamo.
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    • Still doesn't change the fact that getting angry at being kicked triggered Super Saiyan on that day, which is still consistent with anger activates the form.

      He can't destroy them because they're more powerful than he is. Frieza fears Beerus so he's not going to mess around with the ones that Beerus fears. Frieza has never been sickened by destruction, the only negative thing he feels is fear at his own destruction.

      That is due to you physically hurt/injured so much you can't make sounds, not the pain itself. In any case Cabba smiling with his thumbs up was clearly was not in pain. If you're in pain you can't look that relaxed and carefree.

      But Bergamo didn't tell him killing was wrong. He just made a bet with him. Zeno doesn't know jack shit, the whole Zen Exhibition match was just to show Future Zeno the concept of a tournament.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that getting angry at being kicked triggered Super Saiyan on that day, which is still consistent with anger activates the form.

      He can't destroy them because they're more powerful than he is. Frieza fears Beerus so he's not going to mess around with the ones that Beerus fears. Frieza has never been sickened by destruction, the only negative thing he feels is fear at his own destruction.

      That is due to you physically hurt/injured so much you can't make sounds, not the pain itself. In any case Cabba smiling with his thumbs up was clearly was not in pain. If you're in pain you can't look that relaxed and carefree.

      But Bergamo didn't tell him killing was wrong. He just made a bet with him. Zeno doesn't know jack shit, the whole Zen Exhibition match was just to show Future Zeno the concept of a tournament.

      Goku didn't get angry when he triggered the form for Future Trunks at the latter's request, though. Heck, technically, we don't even know if Kid Trunks even got angry (the only thing we do know is that his unveiling the form to Vegeta was NOT the first time he ever transformed. For all we know, that could just as easily been due to something else besides Anger.). And Broly, hoo boy, Broly definitely didn't seem to rely on anger to transform into a Super Saiyan or to, well, ascend during Planet Vegeta's destruction.

      He feared Beerus before, yes, but right now, considering he managed to actually exploit and deflect the Haikai energy that was utilized, it's unclear whether he still feared Beerus, especially when he has implied that he intended to pit the various GoDs against each other. And as far as Zeno, why would he express disgust at Zeno's actions if he didn't feel disgusted by destruction at all? If anything, he'd act more like Kefka did with Shantotto in Dissidia, where he pridefully says to Zeno "Now you've got what it takes to destroy the world!", actually approving of Zeno's destructive outputs.

      Considering Sideshow Bob recovered fairly easily enough to climb up a very high ladder, I'm doubtful it's due to the injury being THAT extensive, but it certainly was due to the pain. And so far as Cabba's thumbs up, I've seen people in bandages actually do a carefree fist bump.

      Future Zeno doesn't know what a tournament is, yes, but Present Zeno DOES. And quite frankly, he didn't make a bet, he specifically BEGGED Zeno to stop the whole Universe erasure rule.

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    • That's because experienced Saiyans have learned to simulate bursts of anger to trigger it. It's how Goku taught Gohan to turn Super Saiyan too, let him picture Frieza was attacking him, let him feel the anger, then to remember that feeling. Your denial over being wrong is getting tiring.

      Hakai or not, Beerus would cream Frieza, and Frieza knows it. It's not like Frieza fought a literal God of Destruction and lost right? Oh wait, he got murderstomped by GoD Toppo. I've literally spelled it out for you. He is NOT disgusted at destruction, he's disgusted at destruction coming from cuteness. If there's one thing Frieza hates it's not being the strongest. So of course Frieza can't stand the fact something so cute and adorable is stronger than him.

      What happened to "he's in so much pain he couldn't even make a sound"? You're just being a hypocrite now by going back on what you said to suit whatever you feel like in the present moment.

      He made a proposal to Zeno and Zeno agreed. He didn't erase Bergamo on the spot like you seemed to suggest he would do. He also never explained to Zeno that killing was wrong, he played it up as a game for the Zenos because that's all the Zenos are concerned with.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: That's because experienced Saiyans have learned to simulate bursts of anger to trigger it. It's how Goku taught Gohan to turn Super Saiyan too, let him picture Frieza was attacking him, let him feel the anger, then to remember that feeling. Your denial over being wrong is getting tiring.

      Hakai or not, Beerus would cream Frieza, and Frieza knows it. It's not like Frieza fought a literal God of Destruction and lost right? Oh wait, he got murderstomped by GoD Toppo. I've literally spelled it out for you. He is NOT disgusted at destruction, he's disgusted at destruction coming from cuteness. If there's one thing Frieza hates it's not being the strongest. So of course Frieza can't stand the fact something so cute and adorable is stronger than him.

      What happened to "he's in so much pain he couldn't even make a sound"? You're just being a hypocrite now by going back on what you said to suit whatever you feel like in the present moment.

      He made a proposal to Zeno and Zeno agreed. He didn't erase Bergamo on the spot like you seemed to suggest he would do. He also never explained to Zeno that killing was wrong, he played it up as a game for the Zenos because that's all the Zenos are concerned with.

      1. Nowhere was it even suggested at that time that Goku actually got angry or even THOUGHT to being angry. And technically, the actual emotion for turning Super Saiyan is desperation, NOT anger. Gohan, for example, only became Super Saiyan after he had Goku try to hit him with a Kamehameha, and somehow, I don't think Gohan would have felt desperation regarding his mom fighting him. Besides, I'm not sure I'd call Goku "experienced" since he has only transformed into a Super Saiyan once before then (maybe twice if we count Vegeta firing a ki blast while searching for Goku and somehow causing a donut-shaped hole during the Garlic Jr. Saga), and hasn't even achieved Full Power Super Saiyan at the time anyway (which is what "experienced" would entail).

      2. Yeah, he got creamed by Toppo, but he STILL managed to overpower some assassins who were empowered by Hakai via Universe 9's GoD. Or have you forgotten about that tidbit. He also didn't seem to mind the GoDs being stronger than him, or even Majin Buu (and if anything, he heeded King Cold's advice on NEVER challenging them, at least until the TOP where he is planning on trying to instigate a fight between the various GoDs.).

      3. I'm still going by that, you were the one who said essentially that that kind of thing is not from pain itself, but from extremely serious injuries (and it's pretty obvious that, while Sideshow Bob was clearly under extensive pain in that scene, he was NOT severely injured. Had he actually BEEN as injured as you implied, he wouldn't even be able to walk, let alone climb a very tall ladder afterwards). So no, I have not gone back on that, nor am I being hypocritical either. And as I said earlier, I've seen people who WERE extensively injured give thumbs up (like Lance Murdock).

      4. Technically, Commander Red also didn't execute General Blue on the spot, yet it's pretty clear he was gunning for Blue to be killed by Tao. And as far as "never explaining that killing was wrong" or "treating it like a game", I'm pretty sure telling them to nix the whole universe erasure thing would have meant the same thing as saying killing is wrong (no point begging for that rule to be removed if you weren't going to state killing was wrong). Now who's going back on his claims?

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    • You can't be serious. It was said everywhere a million times that it was rage. Goku said his heart filled with rage awakened the SSJ, F.Trunks' anger at Gohan being killed made him turn SSJ, Vegeta's frustration at not being able to turn SSJ triggered the form, Gohan pictured Frieza attacking Goku to turn SSJ. That Kamehameha was filler, in the manga Goku only told Gohan to focus on his emotions. Goku told Trunks he had trouble at first but with some practice he could change at will, he was experiences enough to turn it on and off.

      No I haven't forgotten, and I also haven't forgotten those assassins were weaklings given a pinhead of a GoD Hakai power. But you seem to have forgotten that Beerus is still eons stronger than Frieza (by raw power alone not Hakai), and Frieza knows it. Beerus can still keep Frieza in check by intimidating him. He didn't mind because he was too busy fearingthem.

      So they're in too much pain that they can't utter a sound, but they're in not enough pain to grin and give a thumbs up? Do I really need to paint out how illogical your argument is.

      Commander Red doesn't have real friends, while Zeno is capable of it. In any case you kept bringing up he would erase Goku on the spot and I'm saying he's had many many chances to do so but hasn't. Nah. They never gave Zeno the same morality lesson talk that Mr Satan gave to Buu. The Zenos act like kids so they think like kids too.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: You can't be serious. It was said everywhere a million times that it was rage. Goku said his heart filled with rage awakened the SSJ, F.Trunks' anger at Gohan being killed made him turn SSJ, Vegeta's frustration at not being able to turn SSJ triggered the form, Gohan pictured Frieza attacking Goku to turn SSJ. That Kamehameha was filler, in the manga Goku only told Gohan to focus on his emotions. Goku told Trunks he had trouble at first but with some practice he could change at will, he was experiences enough to turn it on and off.

      No I haven't forgotten, and I also haven't forgotten those assassins were weaklings given a pinhead of a GoD Hakai power. But you seem to have forgotten that Beerus is still eons stronger than Frieza (by raw power alone not Hakai), and Frieza knows it. Beerus can still keep Frieza in check by intimidating him. He didn't mind because he was too busy fearingthem.

      So they're in too much pain that they can't utter a sound, but they're in not enough pain to grin and give a thumbs up? Do I really need to paint out how illogical your argument is.

      Commander Red doesn't have real friends, while Zeno is capable of it. In any case you kept bringing up he would erase Goku on the spot and I'm saying he's had many many chances to do so but hasn't. Nah. They never gave Zeno the same morality lesson talk that Mr Satan gave to Buu. The Zenos act like kids so they think like kids too.

      1. Yeah, and in the anime, his channeling his emotions wasn't enough for him to actually retain the Super Saiyan form, which is ultimately what made the Kamehameha thing necessary (not to mention, as you yourself said earlier, Goku specifically said it required necessity, not a desire, meaning the true emotion would have been desperation, not anger. After all, Vegeta got angry PLENTY of times during the Vegeta and Frieza Sagas, yet he hadn't transformed even once).

      2. Yet apparently, he wasn't intimidated enough to, oh, I don't know, avoid trying to manipulate the GoDs to turn against each other for his own personal goals. Frieza didn't even think to try that back when he was alive regarding Beerus, and that was back when he was intimidated by him enough to blow up Planet Vegeta partly because Beerus ordered him to. Even TVTropes' Nightmare Fuel section had them doing that.

      3. Who says that they can't be in pain to give a grin and thumbs up (or a similar hand gesture)? Fine, let me give you some examples: Lance Murdock, another character from the Simpsons, was literally in traction and in a full body cast from his latest daredevil stunt, with pretty much the only body part that HADN'T had its bone broken somehow was his thumb. When meeting Bart in person at the hospital, despite being in traction and in a full body cast (which I can imagine would be extremely painful even if you don't move), he still managed to, quite literally, bear a grin and give a thumbs up (or at least attempted to; which at that point his thumb actually DID break). I'd show you the clip, but unfortunately YouTube doesn't have the scene in English. But you can find the script here: http://www.simpsonsarchive.com/episodes/7F06.html

      And I can name another, similar example: In the Proud Family, specifically the episode Lacienaga [sp?] made her debut, Penny received injuries to such an extent that she had to be on crutches, and if I remember correctly, part of her injuries included her face and at least one of her arms, after she narrowly saved Lacienaga from a trap the Gross Sisters created with Penny's unwitting aid. However, when making up with Deejonay [sp?], she gave her a fist bump, and grinned.

      4. Yeah, I'm doubtful Zeno's even capable of being friends with Goku. See, the true definition of being a friend for anyone is caring for the well being of someone else, placing their best interests above your own. Zeno has yet to show that he placed Goku's best interests above his own, and if anything, he had Goku act as a scapegoat for the various universes to try and fight him with. Not to mention even Toppo was horrified by just how amoral Zeno was. No, he's EXACTLY like Commander Red. Had I been in Zeno and I truly valued Goku as my friend, I'd try to state to the universes that they shouldn't blame Goku for the Tournament of Power, since I was planning to erase their universes, and that if they should blame anyone, it should be me, and even offer to let them beat me up while I don't defend myself even with Erasure to ensure they don't harm Goku. THAT'S how you behave as a friend.

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    • Desperation and anger are typically overlapping emotions, one will typically follow the other. Anger fulfills the necessity requirement. The Kamehameha thing was filler, plus it doesn't change the fact Goku still told Gohan to use anger before giving him that additional motivation. The case with Vegeta is because he didn't meet the other requirement for Super Saiyan, hitting your natural limits, that's the other necessity that needs to be met and also why Goku didn't turn Super Saiyan when King Piccolo killed Krillin. And you realize you just admitted that it was emotions that triggers Super Saiyan.

      He wasn't trying to get caught of course. Well that's due to the fact he's already dead so he figured he could afford to take that risk, pretty much an "all or nothing" approach. Frieza still knows his place and will never directly challenge a true GoD. Toppo was an exception since he's an opponent who he had to fight, but as we all know how that went it wasn't a wise decision.

      Fine, I'll spell it out for you. It takes a lot more effort to move your body than it does to utter a sound. If you are in too much pain to call out, then you are certainly in too much pain to smile and make gestures without showing even the slightest bit of discomfort. Your example, completely different scenario, as the peak pain has already subsided and they're recovering in hospital, likely with painkillers too if the pain is too unbearable. Far far different from the "fate worse than death torturesome" pain that you claim erase to be.

      You doubt, therefore your opinion and not fact. He shows more respect to Goku than anyone else, letting Goku state his view which he's never done for anyone else before. Zeno is too stupid to have such a complex thought pattern as Red, he has a microscopic attention span and is only concerned with having fun in the present. Except you're not Zeno and you never will be. He does not think like you do, so stop using your own thought patterns to predict what he would do.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Desperation and anger are typically overlapping emotions, one will typically follow the other. Anger fulfills the necessity requirement. The Kamehameha thing was filler, plus it doesn't change the fact Goku still told Gohan to use anger before giving him that additional motivation. The case with Vegeta is because he didn't meet the other requirement for Super Saiyan, hitting your natural limits, that's the other necessity that needs to be met and also why Goku didn't turn Super Saiyan when King Piccolo killed Krillin. And you realize you just admitted that it was emotions that triggers Super Saiyan.

      He wasn't trying to get caught of course. Well that's due to the fact he's already dead so he figured he could afford to take that risk, pretty much an "all or nothing" approach. Frieza still knows his place and will never directly challenge a true GoD. Toppo was an exception since he's an opponent who he had to fight, but as we all know how that went it wasn't a wise decision.

      Fine, I'll spell it out for you. It takes a lot more effort to move your body than it does to utter a sound. If you are in too much pain to call out, then you are certainly in too much pain to smile and make gestures without showing even the slightest bit of discomfort. Your example, completely different scenario, as the peak pain has already subsided and they're recovering in hospital, likely with painkillers too if the pain is too unbearable. Far far different from the "fate worse than death torturesome" pain that you claim erase to be.

      You doubt, therefore your opinion and not fact. He shows more respect to Goku than anyone else, letting Goku state his view which he's never done for anyone else before. Zeno is too stupid to have such a complex thought pattern as Red, he has a microscopic attention span and is only concerned with having fun in the present. Except you're not Zeno and you never will be. He does not think like you do, so stop using your own thought patterns to predict what he would do.

      1. Yeah, about that, Vegeta ALSO hit his natural limits a few times as well before then. How do you THINK he got clobbered by Recoome and Zarbon (not to mention Frieza in later forms). Last I checked, that never had him transforming either. And don't even get me started on how Goku hit his natural limits with his first bout with Vegeta. And as far as emotions, desperation isn't exactly an emotion, though (not purely anyways), as it can also amount to being put in a situation that's flight or fight, or being cornered. To put it another way, desperation also entails huge amounts of adrenaline.

      2. Considering he fought a guy who DID have access to Hakai and clearly wasn't a GoD, I'd say he at least had a reasonable assumption that he could beat Toppo. Heck, he even briefly wielded it based on how he nearly used it on Goku.

      3. Except in the manga, Zamasu actually GOT that torturesome pain based on the panels where he was erased by Zeno. There's also the time where that pilgrim asked for more weight when being tortured by the other pilgrims during the Salem Witch Trials to consider as well. He evidently was in extreme pain, yet he died content that he didn't sell out anybody. And speaking as someone who's mom actually had to stay in bed due to agonizing pain in her foot fairly recently, I'd know extremely agonizing pain when I see it (not to mention, I had a pneumothorax and at one time Dad accidentally pressed the tube to my back, leaving me in agonizing pain, so yes, I also know what excruciating pain is like, having personally endured something like that. And my recovery was also painful as well. Still, even with the pain, I still managed to talk.).

      4. Actually, the definition of what entails a friend is someone who places your best interests over their own (and likewise, you place their best interests over your own), that the definition my parents gave at least. And since Zeno has a clear "F" in that considering he had Goku act as a scapegoat rather than make any attempt to take responsibility for it and even allow the GoDs the opportunity to beat Zeno himself up just so they don't get angry at Goku for something that was Zeno's own fault, no, he is NOT a friend by that definition at all. And Zeno isn't stupid, considering he HAD threatened Beerus and Champa, not to mention clearly knew Zamasu was up to no good (if he was truly stupid, he'd probably behave like Majin Buu did after merging with Supreme Grand Kai and basically kill people to have cake, and Zamasu would manipulate him via that method.).

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    • No, "hitting your limits" means a point where training and battles cannot make you any stronger. Vegeta trained for months to try catch up to Goku and at one point he hit a wall and could not get any stronger, as his body wouldn't let him. All the examples you listed, Vegeta jumped in power several times. Doesn't matter, SSJ is still triggered by strong emotion. Call it rage or desperation or whatever, you can no longer deny it's a requirement.

      I'll get back to the original point before this gets sidetracked too much. Frieza can't beat Beerus ➡ Beerus fears Zeno ➡ Frieza can't beat Zeno ➡ Frieza hates Zeno because he's outclassed. He overpowered a tiny bit of Hakai energy and may have underestimated it when Toppo used it, but Frieza had no reason to think he could beat Beerus, ever.

      Then at best, Zamasu felt pain but the others clearly didn't. Perhaps it may be due to Zamasu's death being exclusively slower, indicating it's different to the other erases that Zeno did in the ToP.

      The definition of a friend is someone you enjoy spending time with for whatever reason. Friends come in all different sorts and types, some of them are very close and loyal, others are content with occasional talk. What you described only applies to very close, true companions. I wasn't talking about that incident, I was talking about the first time Zeno invited Goku to his palace he let Goku speak freely even when Zeno's guards and Shin wanted to cut in. No manipulation, no scapegoat, no nothing. Zeno just wanted to hear what Goku had to say. You still fail to make a case on how Zeno knows evil or not. He didn't like Zamasu, but that doesn't mean he knew what Zamasu did was morally wrong and needed punishment.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: No, "hitting your limits" means a point where training and battles cannot make you any stronger. Vegeta trained for months to try catch up to Goku and at one point he hit a wall and could not get any stronger, as his body wouldn't let him. All the examples you listed, Vegeta jumped in power several times. Doesn't matter, SSJ is still triggered by strong emotion. Call it rage or desperation or whatever, you can no longer deny it's a requirement.

      I'll get back to the original point before this gets sidetracked too much. Frieza can't beat Beerus ➡ Beerus fears Zeno ➡ Frieza can't beat Zeno ➡ Frieza hates Zeno because he's outclassed. He overpowered a tiny bit of Hakai energy and may have underestimated it when Toppo used it, but Frieza had no reason to think he could beat Beerus, ever.

      Then at best, Zamasu felt pain but the others clearly didn't. Perhaps it may be due to Zamasu's death being exclusively slower, indicating it's different to the other erases that Zeno did in the ToP.

      The definition of a friend is someone you enjoy spending time with for whatever reason. Friends come in all different sorts and types, some of them are very close and loyal, others are content with occasional talk. What you described only applies to very close, true companions. I wasn't talking about that incident, I was talking about the first time Zeno invited Goku to his palace he let Goku speak freely even when Zeno's guards and Shin wanted to cut in. No manipulation, no scapegoat, no nothing. Zeno just wanted to hear what Goku had to say. You still fail to make a case on how Zeno knows evil or not. He didn't like Zamasu, but that doesn't mean he knew what Zamasu did was morally wrong and needed punishment.

      1. Technically, considering the later instances DIDN'T have the various Saiyans hitting walls in terms of growth, I'm still hesitant to say that becoming Super Saiyan requires essentially to hit a wall. And I'm still doubtful "desperation" is simply an emotion. Anger, yes, but not necessarily desperation, and Goku's specific description to Gohan indicated that one needed desperation and not simply anger.

      2. Sorry, but no, it had very little to do with Zeno being the most powerful being in the universe over Frieza himself or their cuteness. Otherwise, he'd hate the Gods of Destruction with an equal passion since they clearly surpassed him in strength while he was still alive, yet he didn't seem to hate them. Fear them, sure, but not hate them. And use logic, if he feared the GoDs, he'd tremble in fear over Zeno as well, not even attempt to express disgust for what he did.

      3. Yeah, I'm not so sure about that. Besides, technically, being vaporized by the Kamehameha is very quick, but one cannot deny it's extremely painful.

      4. A. Yeah, well, my parents made that much clear, and disagreed strongly with the school claiming that my "classmates" were my "friends". B. Future Zeno's own Personality section of his wiki article made CLEAR that he knew what Zamasu did was morally wrong and needed punishment (if he didn't, then why does it say that he erased Future Trunks' timeline, and I quote, "out of pure disgust for the monstrous actions of Zamasu"? You can't have disgust for monstrous actions by someone if you don't even know what they did was morally wrong. I mean, did Buu have disgust for Bibidi ordering massacres for civilizations? Absolutely not, precisely BECAUSE he was unaware that killing people was wrong.). Plus, the way Future Zamasu was talking in the manga, Zeno ALSO would have erased him and Goku Black on the spot specifically because he was outraged at the Zero Mortals Plan and its outcome.

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    • Accessing Super Saiyan unlocked new paths for growth. Look it's a flat statement by Vegeta and supported by Goku not turning Super Saiyan as a kid. If you don't want to believe facts given at face value then that's your call. You feel desperation/anger it's a state of mind, I really can't make any simpler for you.

      He either hates them or fears them, both negative emotions towards another person. Frieza clearly fears Beerus given he was shitting himself in RoF as soon as he noticed Beerus. Most characters fear Zeno, but Frieza hates them because of how annoying they are. Note Frieza added "colorful characters" making sure to describe their appearance and their personality, not their actions. Also "vexing" is not a word used to describe disgust, it literally means annoyance. He also said he found themvexing not their actions.

      Oh blah-blah-blah. Regardless of whether it causes pain, it's a fact that Goku Black is intentionally trying to cause pain and suffering to his victims, Zeno just erases for the sake of erasing pain or not.

      Look up the dictionary definition, your parents don't define the English language. Also it's just sad you're wasting your parents' time over an online forum about a cartoon. Pure disgust? He just said "it's all gone" then Goku had to urge Zeno to erase Zamasu and he's like "you're right". And FYI, huge problem with your argument. You're so keen on pushing Zeno is the worst character in all of existence. But you also he understood what was wrong and was carrying out justice. If you're carrying out justice on wrongdoers you're clearly not the worst. The real worst character would love what Zamasu did and probably help him out, not stop him.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Accessing Super Saiyan unlocked new paths for growth. Look it's a flat statement by Vegeta and supported by Goku not turning Super Saiyan as a kid. If you don't want to believe facts given at face value then that's your call. You feel desperation/anger it's a state of mind, I really can't make any simpler for you.

      He either hates them or fears them, both negative emotions towards another person. Frieza clearly fears Beerus given he was shitting himself in RoF as soon as he noticed Beerus. Most characters fear Zeno, but Frieza hates them because of how annoying they are. Note Frieza added "colorful characters" making sure to describe their appearance and their personality, not their actions. Also "vexing" is not a word used to describe disgust, it literally means annoyance. He also said he found themvexing not their actions.

      Oh blah-blah-blah. Regardless of whether it causes pain, it's a fact that Goku Black is intentionally trying to cause pain and suffering to his victims, Zeno just erases for the sake of erasing pain or not.

      Look up the dictionary definition, your parents don't define the English language. Also it's just sad you're wasting your parents' time over an online forum about a cartoon. Pure disgust? He just said "it's all gone" then Goku had to urge Zeno to erase Zamasu and he's like "you're right". And FYI, huge problem with your argument. You're so keen on pushing Zeno is the worst character in all of existence. But you also he understood what was wrong and was carrying out justice. If you're carrying out justice on wrongdoers you're clearly not the worst. The real worst character would love what Zamasu did and probably help him out, not stop him.

      1. When you hit a dead end, there's literally no way to push past it (that's the entire POINT behind hitting a wall). At best, it only acts as a temporary roadblock.

      2. He was friends with Cell, and the latter was clearly stronger than him, so no, that if anything disproves the idea that he hates those stronger than him. And as far as "cute appearances", so why is it that he didn't seem to mind Earth at all when he first visited it, even saying "How quaint" or "It's a good planet"?

      3. Yeah, I'm sorry, but when he clearly is laughing his head off when erasing people, it's clear he also sought out pain on others and/or killing people. And for the record, being sadistic doesn't mean you just want pain, even just wanting to kill people, painless or not, is sadistic.

      4. My parents may not define the English language, but they at least know what they're talking about regarding "friends," and you really don't need a dictionary to define what friends are. It's called a life lesson. Besides, the dictionary isn't really a way to go about things in life. I mean, does the dictionary define Communism as "an ideology that tries to exterminate religion and reinstigate the French Revolution"? Of course not! Yet that's exactly what it is since even Karl Marx made that much clear. Heck, I grew UP reading a dictionary. And as far as your last bit, Future Zeno's article specifically said he held disgust for what Future Zamasu did, which means he HAD to have known Zamasu did wrong. And actually, if he knew FULL well what another person was doing was indeed wrong, and yet he himself does the EXACT same thing himself as well, then yes, he actually DOES qualify as the worst person in existence precisely BECAUSE he knew better yet STILL did it. Let me put it another way: You agree that the Zero Mortals Plan was wrong, but then you decide to erase universes simply because you didn't want to take care of them? That's at least AS bad as the Zero Mortals Plan. Actually, no, it's even worse, considering you're erasing them because you didn't want to take care of them. Many times, slaughtering people for the sheer sake of it even if you had no true hatred of them is worse than slaughtering people you hate. That's why Communism is a horrific ideology and many levels worse than Naziism. And for the record, inflicting justice on wrongdoers doesn't mean you're not the worst. Zeus actually inflicted justice on wrongdoers all the time, yet he's actually among the worst gods precisely because his "justice" was completely hypocritical. Besides, by that logic, Zamasu isn't the worst because he ALSO "inflicted justice."

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    • Then it's a temporary roadblock. But you need to hit it before Super Saiyan emerges. Seriously, it's like you didn't even watch the series.

      1) Filler which isn't even canon any more. 2) They were both dead so no risk of Cell killing Frieza. 3) They had a common goal so were working together. FFS, because Earth was a marketable planet! It didn't stop him from trying to kill all life on Earth and later destroying the entire Earth altogether.

      That makes no sense. Laughing your head off doesn't mean he added in pain at all. He just found it funny a weak universe is gone like a kid squashing ants (very literal metaphor in this case). Black made sure to stab Goku through the chest while telling him how he killed Goten and ChiChi. That's prolonging pain and suffering, which Zeno did not do.

      Again, friends come in all sorts and types. That's just one type of particularly close friend. So you're going to biasedly say your parents know better than everyone else including those who wrote the dictionary.

      If you show disgust at someone's vile actions, then THAT is a redeeming quality and therefore not the worst. Here's why your argument makes you such a hypocrite. You have repeatedly been using "Frieza shows disgust at Zeno" to prove Frieza is better, but then you use "Zeno is capable of showing disgust" to prove he's worse than Zamasu and Frieza.

      BTW, your Legendary Super Saiyan 4 page got deleted. Thought you'd be interested to know.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Then it's a temporary roadblock. But you need to hit it before Super Saiyan emerges. Seriously, it's like you didn't even watch the series.

      1) Filler which isn't even canon any more. 2) They were both dead so no risk of Cell killing Frieza. 3) They had a common goal so were working together. FFS, because Earth was a marketable planet! It didn't stop him from trying to kill all life on Earth and later destroying the entire Earth altogether.

      That makes no sense. Laughing your head off doesn't mean he added in pain at all. He just found it funny a weak universe is gone like a kid squashing ants (very literal metaphor in this case). Black made sure to stab Goku through the chest while telling him how he killed Goten and ChiChi. That's prolonging pain and suffering, which Zeno did not do.

      Again, friends come in all sorts and types. That's just one type of particularly close friend. So you're going to biasedly say your parents know better than everyone else including those who wrote the dictionary.

      If you show disgust at someone's vile actions, then THAT is a redeeming quality and therefore not the worst. Here's why your argument makes you such a hypocrite. You have repeatedly been using "Frieza shows disgust at Zeno" to prove Frieza is better, but then you use "Zeno is capable of showing disgust" to prove he's worse than Zamasu and Frieza.

      BTW, your Legendary Super Saiyan 4 page got deleted. Thought you'd be interested to know.

      Won't comment on the roadblock thing, since we've settled on that bit, so covering the others (and for the record, I HAVE watched the series. As a matter of fact, some of my drawings on DeviantART were taken directly from episodes of that series).

      1. Technically, there was still a risk going by the Kid Buu saga where they outright said being killed again meant erased from existence. And quite frankly, does it really matter if it's canon or not? As far as the Earth, had he hated cuteness, marketability wouldn't even enter his mind, he'd blow it up, no sale, leave nothing remaining. That's what I would do, simply to eliminate cuteness, not even CARE if I lose money.

      2. So? Joker also zapped people with his Satellite Gun and laughed about it, and it was at least a very quick death for those who were unfortunate enough to get hit by it. Doesn't change the fact that it was a heinous thing he did. Same goes for Kefka and his little Light of Judgment. So no, it IS indeed sadistic, even if it's not a prolonged death, it's STILL taking joy at the fact that you slaughtered people. Not to mention, technically Frieza gave the Saiyans a quick death by blowing up Planet Vegeta.

      3. Frieza never went to universal scale destruction, however, not even when he briefly ended up revived (and believe me, if he wanted to push for universal scale destruction, he most certainly could do that, like how Kefka does things where he blew things up, not even caring if that resulted in him ultimately losing out, simply because he found it too much fun. Another example is Broly, who reveled in destroying things to such an extent that he didn't even CARE if he himself may have shot himself in the foot.). Zeno, however, was well known to have done universal-scale destruction for extremely trivial reasons, many times simply for his own amusement, not even to consolidate power. Not to mention, blowing stuff up simply because it amused you is PRECISELY why his destruction of universes was even worse than what Frieza ever did, or ANY villain prior to his character during the Universe Survival Saga for that matter. Yes, Frieza has had sadism (and his sadistic nature was shown with his laughing at Planet Vegeta's destruction, which ALSO was quick instead of prolonged), but he never went out of his way to try to blow things up, while Zeno HAS done exactly that. That's the difference the two, and it's not hypocritical (for one thing, I never said, or implied, that Frieza was in any way redeemable, I just said that he expressed disgust regarding what Zeno did. Just because you have disgust towards a particular vile action doesn't mean you are in any way redeemable, especially when I cited a few times before some actual Complete Monsters who HAVE expressed distaste for various evil acts.). And quite frankly, I see both Frieza AND Zeno as being the worst people to live. Let me put it another way, what Zeno is like is this guy Kefka here (and that guy qualified as a Complete Monster big time, and like Zeno was exceedingly childish especially in the Japanese version. Heck, like Zeno, he wasn't even REMOTELY afraid of being dethroned and if anything, did all his destructive actions simply for his own amusement, even the Light of Judgment, the closest he's ever gotten to using destruction to put down rivals, he implies was simply his way of taking his mind off boredom.). Heck, Zeno pretty much did multiple Genocide of the Saiyan-style atrocities simply as a game (and THAT was in the beginning of that arc). Now, BEFORE the Universe Survival Saga, I'd agree with you that Frieza and Zamasu were worse than Zeno, but after how he acted with this saga, I'd say they're saints compared to him ultimately. And just so you know, there have in fact been complete monsters that HAVE in fact expressed disgust with horrific actions, like Emperor Mateus expressing disgust with Kefka's destructive acts in Dissidia Final Fantasy during a battle, or him being sickened by Kefka trying to control Terra. Heck, Zamasu/Goku Black expressed disgust with the likes of Turles' actions based on their interactions in Xenoverse 2, so there's ONE example of a Complete Monster having disgust for vile actions.

      Don't know why they would delete that. In any case, restored it.

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    • Eh, **** those other universes, Zen'o is cool

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      1. Technically, there was still a risk going by the Kid Buu saga where they outright said being killed again meant erased from existence. And quite frankly, does it really matter if it's canon or not? As far as the Earth, had he hated cuteness, marketability wouldn't even enter his mind, he'd blow it up, no sale, leave nothing remaining. That's what I would do, simply to eliminate cuteness, not even CARE if I lose money.

      2. So? Joker also zapped people with his Satellite Gun and laughed about it, and it was at least a very quick death for those who were unfortunate enough to get hit by it. Doesn't change the fact that it was a heinous thing he did. Same goes for Kefka and his little Light of Judgment. So no, it IS indeed sadistic, even if it's not a prolonged death, it's STILL taking joy at the fact that you slaughtered people. Not to mention, technically Frieza gave the Saiyans a quick death by blowing up Planet Vegeta.

      3. Frieza never went to universal scale destruction, however, not even when he briefly ended up revived (and believe me, if he wanted to push for universal scale destruction, he most certainly could do that, like how Kefka does things where he blew things up, not even caring if that resulted in him ultimately losing out, simply because he found it too much fun. Another example is Broly, who reveled in destroying things to such an extent that he didn't even CARE if he himself may have shot himself in the foot.). Zeno, however, was well known to have done universal-scale destruction for extremely trivial reasons, many times simply for his own amusement, not even to consolidate power. Not to mention, blowing stuff up simply because it amused you is PRECISELY why his destruction of universes was even worse than what Frieza ever did, or ANY villain prior to his character during the Universe Survival Saga for that matter. Yes, Frieza has had sadism (and his sadistic nature was shown with his laughing at Planet Vegeta's destruction, which ALSO was quick instead of prolonged), but he never went out of his way to try to blow things up, while Zeno HAS done exactly that. That's the difference the two, and it's not hypocritical (for one thing, I never said, or implied, that Frieza was in any way redeemable, I just said that he expressed disgust regarding what Zeno did. Just because you have disgust towards a particular vile action doesn't mean you are in any way redeemable, especially when I cited a few times before some actual Complete Monsters who HAVE expressed distaste for various evil acts.). And quite frankly, I see both Frieza AND Zeno as being the worst people to live. Let me put it another way, what Zeno is like is this guy Kefka here (and that guy qualified as a Complete Monster big time, and like Zeno was exceedingly childish especially in the Japanese version. Heck, like Zeno, he wasn't even REMOTELY afraid of being dethroned and if anything, did all his destructive actions simply for his own amusement, even the Light of Judgment, the closest he's ever gotten to using destruction to put down rivals, he implies was simply his way of taking his mind off boredom.). Heck, Zeno pretty much did multiple Genocide of the Saiyan-style atrocities simply as a game (and THAT was in the beginning of that arc). Now, BEFORE the Universe Survival Saga, I'd agree with you that Frieza and Zamasu were worse than Zeno, but after how he acted with this saga, I'd say they're saints compared to him ultimately. And just so you know, there have in fact been complete monsters that HAVE in fact expressed disgust with horrific actions, like Emperor Mateus expressing disgust with Kefka's destructive acts in Dissidia Final Fantasy during a battle, or him being sickened by Kefka trying to control Terra. Heck, Zamasu/Goku Black expressed disgust with the likes of Turles' actions based on their interactions in Xenoverse 2, so there's ONE example of a Complete Monster having disgust for vile actions.

      Don't know why they would delete that. In any case, restored it.

      Well if we're drawing on non-canon. In GT, Frieza and Cell specifically say that while they're in the afterlife their bodies are immortal and can't be permanently damaged. Vegeta left the afterlife so he was vulnerable. Are you for real? Earth =/= cute. I can't even begin to understand how you could come to that conclusion. Frieza hating cute things doesn't mean he hates everything in existence. He still has a ship that he lives on that he isn't disgusted by.

      Point is Zeno does not prolong the pain, Goku Black does. Frieza isn't any better he has tortured his victims many times before finishing them off like tearing off Nail's arm, drowning Goku, and even beating Tagoma within an inch of his life before allowing him to heal up so he can torture him again.

      Because unlike Zeno, Frieza actually needs the universe to, you know, live. If he destroys the universe he destroys himself along with it. If Frieza could destroy a universe (which is not confirmed he even can), and survive its destruction, he would have tried it by now.

      Feeling disgust shows said person is above the one they feel disgust towards. It means that's a low they won't sink to and therefore someone who places lower than them. Just as I suspected, you are only judging Zeno solely by his kill count.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      1. Technically, there was still a risk going by the Kid Buu saga where they outright said being killed again meant erased from existence. And quite frankly, does it really matter if it's canon or not? As far as the Earth, had he hated cuteness, marketability wouldn't even enter his mind, he'd blow it up, no sale, leave nothing remaining. That's what I would do, simply to eliminate cuteness, not even CARE if I lose money.

      2. So? Joker also zapped people with his Satellite Gun and laughed about it, and it was at least a very quick death for those who were unfortunate enough to get hit by it. Doesn't change the fact that it was a heinous thing he did. Same goes for Kefka and his little Light of Judgment. So no, it IS indeed sadistic, even if it's not a prolonged death, it's STILL taking joy at the fact that you slaughtered people. Not to mention, technically Frieza gave the Saiyans a quick death by blowing up Planet Vegeta.

      3. Frieza never went to universal scale destruction, however, not even when he briefly ended up revived (and believe me, if he wanted to push for universal scale destruction, he most certainly could do that, like how Kefka does things where he blew things up, not even caring if that resulted in him ultimately losing out, simply because he found it too much fun. Another example is Broly, who reveled in destroying things to such an extent that he didn't even CARE if he himself may have shot himself in the foot.). Zeno, however, was well known to have done universal-scale destruction for extremely trivial reasons, many times simply for his own amusement, not even to consolidate power. Not to mention, blowing stuff up simply because it amused you is PRECISELY why his destruction of universes was even worse than what Frieza ever did, or ANY villain prior to his character during the Universe Survival Saga for that matter. Yes, Frieza has had sadism (and his sadistic nature was shown with his laughing at Planet Vegeta's destruction, which ALSO was quick instead of prolonged), but he never went out of his way to try to blow things up, while Zeno HAS done exactly that. That's the difference the two, and it's not hypocritical (for one thing, I never said, or implied, that Frieza was in any way redeemable, I just said that he expressed disgust regarding what Zeno did. Just because you have disgust towards a particular vile action doesn't mean you are in any way redeemable, especially when I cited a few times before some actual Complete Monsters who HAVE expressed distaste for various evil acts.). And quite frankly, I see both Frieza AND Zeno as being the worst people to live. Let me put it another way, what Zeno is like is this guy Kefka here (and that guy qualified as a Complete Monster big time, and like Zeno was exceedingly childish especially in the Japanese version. Heck, like Zeno, he wasn't even REMOTELY afraid of being dethroned and if anything, did all his destructive actions simply for his own amusement, even the Light of Judgment, the closest he's ever gotten to using destruction to put down rivals, he implies was simply his way of taking his mind off boredom.). Heck, Zeno pretty much did multiple Genocide of the Saiyan-style atrocities simply as a game (and THAT was in the beginning of that arc). Now, BEFORE the Universe Survival Saga, I'd agree with you that Frieza and Zamasu were worse than Zeno, but after how he acted with this saga, I'd say they're saints compared to him ultimately. And just so you know, there have in fact been complete monsters that HAVE in fact expressed disgust with horrific actions, like Emperor Mateus expressing disgust with Kefka's destructive acts in Dissidia Final Fantasy during a battle, or him being sickened by Kefka trying to control Terra. Heck, Zamasu/Goku Black expressed disgust with the likes of Turles' actions based on their interactions in Xenoverse 2, so there's ONE example of a Complete Monster having disgust for vile actions.

      Don't know why they would delete that. In any case, restored it.

      Well if we're drawing on non-canon. In GT, Frieza and Cell specifically say that while they're in the afterlife their bodies are immortal and can't be permanently damaged. Vegeta left the afterlife so he was vulnerable. Are you for real? Earth =/= cute. I can't even begin to understand how you could come to that conclusion. Frieza hating cute things doesn't mean he hates everything in existence. He still has a ship that he lives on that he isn't disgusted by.

      Point is Zeno does not prolong the pain, Goku Black does. Frieza isn't any better he has tortured his victims many times before finishing them off like tearing off Nail's arm, drowning Goku, and even beating Tagoma within an inch of his life before allowing him to heal up so he can torture him again.

      Because unlike Zeno, Frieza actually needs the universe to, you know, live. If he destroys the universe he destroys himself along with it. If Frieza could destroy a universe (which is not confirmed he even can), and survive its destruction, he would have tried it by now.

      Feeling disgust shows said person is above the one they feel disgust towards. It means that's a low they won't sink to and therefore someone who places lower than them. Just as I suspected, you are only judging Zeno solely by his kill count.

      1. Cute basically means looking very appealing, so yes, under that sense, Earth = Cute, since Frieza did in fact acknowledge the Earth was VERY appealing. And as far as Vegeta, you DO remember that Goku when he said this to Vegeta was battling Kid Buu in Other World, right?

      2. So? Technically, Kefka also doesn't prolong the pain he inflicts on others, yet he STILL gets his jollies from killing people and is considered a Complete Monster for that reason. And he has the same personality traits, especially childishness, as Zeno.

      3. Yeah, considering he already knows about Beerus, I wouldn't be surprised if he at least deduced there were other GoDs, and by extension, other Universes as well (heck, considering Champa was pretty much the reason why Frieza ultimately ended up revived, it's pretty clear that, if he didn't find out before his death, he certainly found out afterward). And as such, I wouldn't be surprised if, after defeating Goku, he'd destroy Universe 7 and move on to the next universe. Maybe if Super never happened, I'd buy keeping the Universe alive simply to ensure his own survival.

      4. Nope, not even close. Like I said before, while body count does play a role, it's not the only thing I'm judging him by, it's also the fact that he was clearly getting his jollies in erasing people based on his reaction to erasing Universe 9 and 10, maybe the other universes up to this point. And yes, if I erased people and acted like HE did, I'd be sadistic as well simply because I'm truly enjoying the fact that I'm ending lives. Doesn't matter if they're in pain or not, because they are still dying by my hands and I'm still enjoying the mere fact that I'm terminating lives. If he were truly above Goku Black or Zamasu's actions and nature, he wouldn't laugh at the destruction he's wrought on the universes. Far from it, he'd react like Terra did here when she learned she beat up Onion Knight (and she's described as a pure and innocent girl, and unlike Zeno with his actions, she more than lived up to that description), in other words, be rendered cataconic and completely horrified by his own actions, even beg Goku to kill him so he doesn't have to do that again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XkPbULKTeM

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    • Cute means cute. The word is not used for planets and landscapes. Is English even your first language?

      Frieza needs a universe to survive in. He can't just bust blow up the universe and not get caught in the explosion.

      You listed off a whole bunch of things to compare Zeno with Frieza and Zamasu, and the only thing that Zeno ranks worst at its kill count. All the other stuff the others are just as bad or worse.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Cute means cute. The word is not used for planets and landscapes. Is English even your first language?

      Frieza needs a universe to survive in. He can't just bust blow up the universe and not get caught in the explosion.

      You listed off a whole bunch of things to compare Zeno with Frieza and Zamasu, and the only thing that Zeno ranks worst at its kill count. All the other stuff the others are just as bad or worse.

      1. I was born and raised in America, to parents who have been born in America and were naturalized citizens, not to mention had no way of knowing any languages besides English. Is that even a question? And for the record, "cute" literally means something that is physically appealing in terms of appearance. A synonym for it is "beautiful", although in some cases, cute can refer to more basic stuff while beautiful implies a higher level of appeal than merely "cute." And yes, actually, it CAN be used for landscapes at least. I've even seen environments in TV stuff with lots of flowers and rainbows being called "cute." And do I really need to remind you that the landscape of Hell that Frieza was confined to in Super was literally described as "cute"?

      2. Didn't stop Broly from trying to blow up the universe, or Kid Buu, or heck, even Cell (and he planned to destroy the entire Universe based on his yelling "I am the universe's end!"). And besides, who SAYS that Frieza can't travel across multiple universes in Super? Especially considering Goku and the others have done so (or have you forgotten that they've gone to Universe 10 to investigate the origin of Goku Black).

      3. Nope, I also cited the fact that Zeno laughed his head off regarding killing people. Not just his body count, but also the actual reaction to it. To put it another way that you might comprehend, Android 21 in FighterZ had a comparable bodycount to Cell, maybe even surpassing him in that regard, yet unlike Cell, who actually reveled in his killing others, Android 21 was genuinely horrified by her actions and her constantly trying to kill others, and even went as far as to split her evil half from her, and eventually sacrifice herself not just to ensure that her evil half doesn't kill any more people, but also to make sure she herself cannot harm anyone else (as even her "good half" was still too much of a danger to everyone due to her constant hunger). I could also cite pre-SSJ2 Gohan who wasn't even willing to fight Cell due to fearing that he'll harm him as another example. Had Zeno acted like either of those examples (ESPECIALLY Android 21) with his erase abilities, being too afraid of his powers and how much harm he'd inflict on them, then yes, Zamasu and Frieza most certainly would have been worse even WITH Zeno's extremely high body count (the highest in the series). But as it is, he's actually just AS bad as them in overall personality if not even worse, especially when unlike Zamasu and Frieza who at least had trying to maintain power or stopping threats as an excuse for committing to the Zero Mortals Plan and the Genocide of the Saiyans, Zeno did it purely for fun and his own amusement, like Kefka did in Final Fantasy VI with his destructive actions like his poisoning Doma or his causing the apocalypse (and Kefka wasn't concerned about any threats to him, in fact, since he was such a huge nihilist, he probably wouldn't even CARE if someone posed a threat to him, thinking that he'd win anyway even if he was killed by said threat. If you watched that video I linked you to, you'd realize that. Actually, Kefka's genocidal actions against Doma in particular if anything is more comparable to Zeno and his actions than to, say, Frieza or Zamasu with their heinous actions, since it wasn't even rooted in either fear or hatred, it was just because he found it fun to do and thinking it was a good time to do it.). Or heck, Henry Evans (and he got off at killing people, not simply harming them. He could kill them painlessly and he'd STILL take joy at it, and he's listed as a Complete Monster for that reason like with Kefka.).

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    • cute

      kyo͞ot

      adjective

      1. 1. 

      attractive in a pretty or endearing way.

      So yeah, planets can be cute, especially to beings who can travel quickly to more than one.

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    • Key word endearing, making the person feel special and needing to be protective. The planet itself usually won't do that, it's something else about the planet that creates the feeling. Frieza simply landing and making general commentary does not mean cuteness. Frieza enjoying an explosion does not make the explosion cute, Frieza liking the taste of wine does not make the wind cute.

      Broly and Buu had no restraint over their power, frieza repeatedly does. He was too afraid to go all out in destroying Namek so he obviously won't do it to the universe he's currently in. Because there's no evidence to say he could. Kais and Angela have special ways to move that Frieza had never been shown doing.

      So? All of them laughed their head off, with Black and Frieza even gloating and tormenting their victims brief killing them. Zamasu was using the excuse to stop mortals, but ultimately it was just narcissistic because he wanted to ride the universe of anything that wasn't himself, while Frieza never had noble goals period.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Key word endearing, making the person feel special and needing to be protective. The planet itself usually won't do that, it's something else about the planet that creates the feeling. Frieza simply landing and making general commentary does not mean cuteness. Frieza enjoying an explosion does not make the explosion cute, Frieza liking the taste of wine does not make the wind cute.

      Broly and Buu had no restraint over their power, frieza repeatedly does. He was too afraid to go all out in destroying Namek so he obviously won't do it to the universe he's currently in. Because there's no evidence to say he could. Kais and Angela have special ways to move that Frieza had never been shown doing.

      So? All of them laughed their head off, with Black and Frieza even gloating and tormenting their victims brief killing them. Zamasu was using the excuse to stop mortals, but ultimately it was just narcissistic because he wanted to ride the universe of anything that wasn't himself, while Frieza never had noble goals period.

      1. Considering he thought Earth was a "good planet"/"quaint", it's obvious it had SOME endearing qualities to it for him to even describe it as such, even if it's just something to make money off of in terms of a real estate scam. Besides, by that logic, the Earth Hell was not "cute" precisely BECAUSE it was not endearing at all to Frieza, didn't make him feel special at all or feel the need to protect it.

      2. You could make the case with Kid Buu lacking self-control, but Broly evidently had self-control in at least Movie 8 considering he deliberately held off blowing up New Planet Vegeta specifically so he could have a fight. Someone who truly lacked self-control would probably just blow up the planet regardless of whether they wanted a fight. To put it another way: Gohan when trying out his Super Saiyan form ended up roasting Goku when he was simply intending to cook his meat for him. And don't get me started on Cell, who literally waited ten days for his Cell Games before he could consider blowing up the planet. As far as Frieza, bear in mind that he managed to unlock that Golden Frieza form, which was able to fight on part with Super Saiyan Blue, a form that literally required God Ki to utilize, which likewise implied that Frieza himself could access it as well (how else could he even compete with something with God-type Ki?). If he could pull that off, he most certainly could find a way to go to other universes with or without Beerus/Whis' help.

      3. Yes, except Zeno had NO excuse for his behavior AT ALL, even LESS of an excuse than Frieza, and had even LESS noble reasons for doing the Tournament of Power. His power wasn't threatened, he didn't have any hatred of mortals, he just got OFF on erasing people, as you could see by his erasing Universe 9 and 10, and more importantly, he had ZERO noble elements to his rationale to blowing up those universes (quite the opposite, he hated the idea of taking care of universes and wanted to blow them up so he doesn't take care of them, and make no mistake, he won't stop after this one, heck, he'd probably blow up the single remaining universe with NO remorse whatsoever and when they complain, he'll probably say "Hee-hee-hee! But what's the fun of erasure if there are no "precious" lives lost" ala Kefka). Had he truly been different from Zamasu or Frieza, he would have acted regarding his erasure powers, like how Android 21's good personality acted regarding her constant hunger (in other words, be genuinely terrified of even using it). Zeno is like Kefka, and I can assure you, Zamasu's a SAINT compared to Kefka, if you saw those videos of him.

      And for the record, Rexzor had the same ideas as you on GameFAQs, and even tried to defend Zeno regarding his atrocious behavior, or at least claim he wasn't any worse than Zamasu, but then I showed him how he took sadistic joy in erasing Universe 9, even pointed out Roh and the others' fearful reactions when he did so, and when he remembered that the very start of this horrid saga had Zeno literally playing a game that entailed destroying planets, he changed his tune and admitted that, yes, Zeno was definitely far worse than Zamasu ever was. I'll even post the links to you:

      https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000113-dragon-ball-general/76082292?page=2

      https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000113-dragon-ball-general/76082292?page=3

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    • I personally prefer to look at Zeno as a stupid clown character. Anyone in the universes would make a better ruler than him.

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    • Ricardolindo wrote: I personally prefer to look at Zeno as a stupid clown character. Anyone in the universes would make a better ruler than him.

      Funny you should use that description of Zeno, because Kefka, who I can't help but comparing Zeno to in terms of overall behavior, literally IS a clown.

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    • You can like something without even coming close to the definition of cute. If you like a horror movie does that mean you find it cute? And Frieza didn't even come close to being endeared by it, he just thought it was not bad planet. Exactly, it's not cute to Frieza. What others find to be cute disgusts Frieza and reviled him.

      Broly did not have self control when he blew up South Galaxy. His power had been contained for years building up, and when his limiter was loosened all of it was released. Well obviously Cell has control, all of his genetic material is very skilled at controlling ki so odd oxide he can keep himself contained.

      I am not saying Zeno is a saint or even necessarily good, in fact he's terrible at his job and probably shouldn't even be the top god. But if you're going to say he's the worst thing in existence simply because of the number of people he killed them I will always argue against that. You only see Zeno through blood-stained glasses and everything about him is apparently the worst, despite repeated times have shown Zeno isn't alone in any of this, with all of his crimes being committed by plenty of other villains. The only difference is Zeno is stronger and capable of that level of killing. If Frieza, Cell, Buu, Zamasu were that strong then the level of horror they'd unleash would make Zeno look like a trip to the amusement park in comparison.

      I don't give a crap about Kefka or that comparison you're so fond of making. There's no one else who would compare Zeno to Kefka or Joker like you have, because they're not even remotely similar characters.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: You can like something without even coming close to the definition of cute. If you like a horror movie does that mean you find it cute? And Frieza didn't even come close to being endeared by it, he just thought it was not bad planet. Exactly, it's not cute to Frieza. What others find to be cute disgusts Frieza and reviled him.

      Broly did not have self control when he blew up South Galaxy. His power had been contained for years building up, and when his limiter was loosened all of it was released. Well obviously Cell has control, all of his genetic material is very skilled at controlling ki so odd oxide he can keep himself contained.

      I am not saying Zeno is a saint or even necessarily good, in fact he's terrible at his job and probably shouldn't even be the top god. But if you're going to say he's the worst thing in existence simply because of the number of people he killed them I will always argue against that. You only see Zeno through blood-stained glasses and everything about him is apparently the worst, despite repeated times have shown Zeno isn't alone in any of this, with all of his crimes being committed by plenty of other villains. The only difference is Zeno is stronger and capable of that level of killing. If Frieza, Cell, Buu, Zamasu were that strong then the level of horror they'd unleash would make Zeno look like a trip to the amusement park in comparison.

      I don't give a crap about Kefka or that comparison you're so fond of making. There's no one else who would compare Zeno to Kefka or Joker like you have, because they're not even remotely similar characters.

      1. A horror movie isn't even supposed to be "cute", however. If it's "cute", it defeats the entire purpose of a horror film, which is to terrify people (and you can't terrify people with "cuteness" by any stretch). That's completely different from the situation with Zeno or Earth. If you want to use a claim of how you can like something without it being cute, try using a different example than that.

      2. Ah, yeah, actually, he DID have self control, at least to the extent that he deliberately avoided trying to destroy New Planet Vegeta long enough to try and fight Goku and his friends (as a matter of fact, the Japanese version literally had him say that they should fight him at their best, otherwise he'll destroy the planet). Had he truly lacked self control, the movie would have had a bad ending literally a second after his transformation due to him proceeding to blow up the planet without even fighting Goku or anyone. Heck, he didn't even try to kill Paragus until AFTER nearly everyone else was beaten to a pulp by him, which, if he lacked self-control, he wouldn't even WAIT until then to kill Paragus, probably make sure he's his first victim thanks largely to him placing Broly under control earlier. And as far as the South Galaxy, going by how King Kai reacted to the destruction at the beginning of the film, I find it more likely that Paragus just used Broly to destroy the entirety of the South Galaxy after putting the crown on him as part of his plan to lure Vegeta over for revenge (especially when his appearance in the flashback indicated that Broly was a bit closer to his age in the present than, say, when he was a child when he did that). Use common sense: All-knowing or not, do you REALLY think King Kai would just ignore Broly blowing up the galaxy wholesale for 30 years?

      3. You're still not even coming close to understanding the situation, though at least you're now acknowledging he shouldn't be top god, which is a step in the right direction. Okay, let me try again: Frieza blew up the Saiyans, not just out of joy at causing death and destruction, but specifically to prevent either a rebellion from them (implying that he'd probably be taken out if they ganged up on him), or otherwise to ensure a Super Saiyan never emerged. While it is by no means a noble goal at all especially considering what he's like, it's still something that can be comprehended.

      And Zamasu's Zero Mortals Plan dealt with exterminating mortals, and let's face it, considering how most of the gods were weak enough to actually be able to be harmed or even killed by mortals in the series, mortals are actually a pretty big threat to the gods, and besides, Zamasu DID get injured by one of those mortals when Gowasu was teaching him the ways of the universe, so he at least was somewhat justified in not liking mortals. To put it another way, imagine if it was Frieza that Zamasu encountered and not Goku, and unlike Goku, Frieza doesn't hold back in killing him. After that mortal killed him, the rest of the universe would be threatened, be a dystopia. So even Zamasu ultimately has reasons that actually make some sense for his actions. Heck, I ultimately AGREE with Zamasu to a point, largely regarding his rationale (if gods can be killed by mortals, they just aren't worth being called gods), but I do NOT condone his actions.

      Zeno, however is a completely different story: Zeno literally doesn't need to worry about whether anyone CAN overthrow him, or whether such characters can even do damage to the universe if they can overthrow him. Yet he STILL erases those universes simply because he finds it fun and likewise doesn't like having to care for them. Sorry, but most people would find THAT to be far worse than simply maintaining power or taking out threats (in fact, when I showed my parents his erasure of Universe 10, they actually compared him to the Kim Dynasty and various other dictators, with the closest they had to an actual positive example being that kid with omnipotent powers from The Twilight Zone, you know, the one who sends people he doesn't like to the corn rows. In fact, I'd argue he's even WORSE than that kid, since at least that kid is capable of feeling regret if he used his powers badly and tries to make amends at times, while Zeno has NO remorse whatsoever for what he's done.). Not even his MOTIVES were even remotely justifiable or redeemable, let alone his actual actions and the results of said actions, or especially how he acted. THAT'S how he's worse, not JUST by how many people he killed, but how he reacted overall and literally having no real need for such things to be even REMOTELY necessary.

      4. Quite frankly, while I may not have seen people specifically make comparisons to Kefka or Joker regarding Zeno, I HAVE seen loads of people on GameFAQs and, heck, even here, state that Zeno IS worse than Zamasu at this point. In fact, the GameFAQs title I pointed you to is literally "Zeno is WAYYY worse than Zamasu". And actually, yes, Zeno and Kefka at least ARE similar, and not just in a remote sense. Or have you completely ignored the videos I posted, or the fact that I linked you to his actions with the End of the World or the Siege of Doma on Final Fantasy Wiki. In fact, under Genocide Backfire's entry, it specifically says that, unlike most examples where people do Genocide Backfire (specifically, trying to get rid of a threat to them), he neither did it out of self-preservation, or even any fear or hatred of the people of Doma (or at least, no SPECIFIC fear or hatred of them), he did it "for the hell of it." That's how Zeno is similar, since like Kefka, he has absolutely no need to do a lot of erasures on universes, yet does it largely because he enjoys doing so simply because he CAN.

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