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  • So... They finally named the form. Well I think its main distinction is its incredibly ability to anticipate and make the user prepared for anything. While I'm not entirely convinced its the strongest Saiyan form ever, it certainly is the most advantageous, if one can master it. It is certainly a powerful form as demonstrated by the fight with Jiren.

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    • Hulk10
      Hulk10 removed this reply because:
      not needed
      01:09, October 9, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Hulk10
      Hulk10 removed this reply because:
      not needed
      01:08, October 9, 2017
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    • You... sigh. You know there's an edit button, right?

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    • I'm wondering if we're gonna see this form again in future episodes or is it just a temporarly power up that was only available in that specific situation. 

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    • Hulk10
      Hulk10 removed this reply because:
      too antagonitic
      01:08, October 9, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • 0551E80Y wrote: I'm wondering if we're gonna see this form again in future episodes or is it just a temporarly power up that was only available in that specific situation. 

      Maybe who knows?

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    • As much as I like the look of it, I'm actually hoping that it doesn't reappear. Nearly every time Goku gains a power up, Vegetable has to try to match him. Goku already has a form more powerful than Vegeta's top form. I don't think I want to see two Ultra instinct saiyans. Plus, Gohan promised to match/exceed his father. In his ultimate form, he still isn't a match for Kaioken Blue. How will he reach UI?

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    • I would hate to see this form reappearing. It suits better that Goku learns how to use the Ultra Instict in his SSB form (similar to the base and Saiyan Beyond God thing) and then defeat Jiren. I'm tired of seeing the classic cliché of "Goku obtains a new form by either training or plot and then at the next arc Vegeta obtains the same power by just training". This Ultra Instinc should be a one-time form for this special.

      Also, in the more-than-likely case that Goku defeats Jiren, I highly hope they don't make Jiren look like trash.

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    • or use the ultra instinct in another form.

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    • Ha, I hope Jiren beats them all and wins the tournament, with the Zen'o's rescuing Goku, but destroying the rest of his universe, leaving Goku to cry in horror and depression since it's all his fault.

      Although I think Jiren will be disqualified when it's revealed that he's powered by his universes God of Destruction (which actually wouldn't make sense since the Zen'o allowed the other U7 fighters to give power to Goku's Spirit Bomb, which isn't that far off from Frost trying to attack Frieza)

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    • Zen-Oh forgets about his own rules, he is just a child, as long as it looks cool he will let it pass or if it suits plot. It was about time he remembered that with Frost. As for Ribrianne and Goku, it was just plot. Say Zeno erases U7 for helping Goku from the bench = Goku can't do the Spirit Bomb = Jiren rings him out = the show is over.

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    • Skar800 wrote: Zen-Oh forgets about his own rules, he is just a child, as long as it looks cool he will let it pass or if it suits plot. It was about time he remembered that with Frost. As for Ribrianne and Goku, it was just plot. Say Zeno erases U7 for helping Goku from the bench = Goku can't do the Spirit Bomb = Jiren rings him out = the show is over.

      True enough.

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    • Also another question. Do you believe this form will appear in the Manga?

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    • 0551E80Y wrote: Also another question. Do you believe this form will appear in the Manga?

      No idea

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    • yeah, or the benchwarmers could just not give up power. They were just lowely humans anyway. I assume it was allowed because Jiren said it was okay and that was good enough for Zen'o.

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    • Maybe.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      0551E80Y wrote: Also another question. Do you believe this form will appear in the Manga?

      No idea

      Not sure that's an applicable answer to the question he asked. But no, I don't think it will. They're doing that "full power" thing.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      0551E80Y wrote: Also another question. Do you believe this form will appear in the Manga?

      No idea

      Not sure that's an applicable answer to the question he asked. But no, I don't think it will. They're doing that "full power" thing.

      what "full power" thing?

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    • The wiki has it as the (incredibly creative) name "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (complete)"

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    • I thought SSGSS was dead. If the manga also uses "Super Saiyan Blue" why name the mastered variation "SSGSS"?

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    • Skar800 wrote: I thought SSGSS was dead. If the manga also uses "Super Saiyan Blue" why name the mastered variation "SSGSS"?

      SSB and SSGSS are the same

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    • I know that but if you already sticked with Blue then keep using that. As far as I'm aware "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" is always used out-of-universe.

      It's almost like if you had "Super Saiyan" and then name the mastered form as "Super Saiyan Full Power Super Saiyan".

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    • No, that would be the opposite of what you claim is happening.

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    • I don't know how to put it but you get the point. The in-universe name for that form is "Super Saiyan Blue" so you normally expect that any variation from it would keep the "Blue".

      Tell me why it's more proper to say "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (complete)" than "Mastered Super Saiyan Blue" or "Super Saiyan Blue Full Power".

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    • It isn't. My point was that they have a separate form from Ultra Instinct.

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    • Ultra instinct's abilities were impressive, far more so than its power.

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    • Only because the only power the form had was what was left from the spirit bomb after imploding.

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    • So you think the form could be stronger?

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    • Yes... or at least I think it could be maintained for longer. We already know it can get better, they mention how the form is constantly evolving.

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    • Aparantly Vegeta intends to use the Super Dragon Balls to revive U6 if its erased.

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    • Maybe so he can kick Hit's butt. Payback time.

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    • Skar800 wrote: Maybe so he can kick Hit's butt. Payback time.

      More so he can visit Sadla

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    • I think the reason why Goku appears 'completely' shirtless in the advertising of the Ultra Instinct form compared to the one we had in the special. Is that 'that' is what Goku will look like when he will fully master the form and be ready for his rematch with Jiren.

      I feel that the rematch is gonna emulate the iconic Ssj Goku vs 100% final form Frieza on Namek fight. Based on the fact that the fight we had in the special felt very similar to Base Goku's fight with Final form Frieza up to 50% before Krillin's death.

      -Kaioken times 20 failed. 

      -Spirit Bomb failed

      -Goku despite having a second wind in the incomplete form failed as well. 

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    • whis said that it's a shell of his potential, so we all know it's far higher, but, if it's his potential, doesn't that mean that he can make it permanent if old kai unlocks it, we know that goku can stretch his normal ki levels to the equivalent of super saiyan god, but, he has infinite power in this form, as he shook infinity, and he's comparable to jiren, who overpowered time, while suppressed, also, due to scales of dimensions, goku has 4th dimensional power.

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    • first of all Ultra Instinct is not a form. its a state of mind that so far only 3 people are varified to have acces to Whiz, beerus and Goku.

      its a technique that not even gods of destruction can easily master. meaning no matter what its a technique more powerful than any super saiyan form. we know this because when goku went ultra instinct he was in his base form, IE he wasn't a super Saiyan Ultra or some shart like that. he was simply Ultra Instinct Goku and said state of mind allowed him to fight toe to toe with Jiren. once goku gets his stamina back and reenters Ultra Instinct he should need to enter any Super Saiyan forms.  because the nature of the state of mind allows him to evolve every second he fights. meaning that eventually ultra instinct base goku will be able to beat jiren. if he stacks super saiyan on top of it he would instantly turn the tide, if goku enters Super Saiyan ultra blue than he would instantly obliterate jiren

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    • i was more saying it's like gohan's potential unlock ability, but not to the fullest extent, whis explained it as such, so it's kind of still a form, the form which gives him ultra instinct. do you think he evolves because he draws out more potential.

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    • In Dragon Ball Heroes new opening, Goku eventually achieve Ultra Instinct and will battle Jiren maybe in between early January and February as Universal Survival Arc are slate to run till March of 2018.

      November and December will be about Goku learning UI and other fighter trying survive. While I believe that after December, Goku with UI will faced Jiren in round two.

      I admit that I really like UI as its not a transformation but a technique that let you evolve without having a need to transform in order to combat your opponent. At least something refreshing for once. But I want to see the God and the Angel face when Goku went all out with Ultra Instinct.

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    • How fucking long is 48 minutes!?

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    • Well I did the math with Frieza.

      Namek's destruction in 5 minutes = 10 episodes

      Tournament of Power in 48 minutes = 96 episodes

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    • I think, on average, each episode of the ToP advances its time by 1 minute.

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    • would you guys like this fight to end in 48 minutes? probably not, that's boring, look at dragon ball's cinematic timing respectthreads GIF | Create, Discover and Share on Gfycat, would you also like to not even see the fight, at all? probably not. i admit i don't want it to be more than 10 or 15 left, but it wouldn't be that bad.

      who do you guys want to get kicked off? i go caulifa, kale, or ribrianne.

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    • Of course we wouldn't, it you can't claim all of the things we've seen so far managed to fit in that time frame either.

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    • I don't want to see the deaths of any more Saiyans

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    • Make chichi a saiyan

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    • That won't happen.

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    • Pretty sure super Shenron can do anything

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    • i meant the creators won't do something like that.

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    • Then there's me, currently waiting for Goku and Vegeta to leave their wives for Kale and Caulifla.

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    • And there is me who regards SS4 and SSB as having similar power.

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    • Only if it's the U6 people as SS4, since their lower transformations are as powerful as U7's higher ones.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Only if it's the U6 people as SS4, since their lower transformations are as powerful as U7's higher ones.

      I disagree but that's just me

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    • @hulk

      depends on the potential of the character, ss4 draws potential out, goku's potential is far greater than ssblue, as we've seen with ultra instinct, he's probably 50-100 times ssblue (jiren was very suppressed while beating up blue x20).

      probably the same for caulifa, but not kale.

      i've said this before, but when i said that, goku's potential was ssg level.

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    • I suppose one could see it that way

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    • Hulk10 wrote: I suppose one could see it that way

      I suppose that's possible too.

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    • Ultra instinct Omen is one of the most interesting forms ever created. Imagine combinging it with SS4. Now that would be a deadly combination.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: Ultra instinct Omen is one of the most interesting forms ever created. Imagine combinging it with SS4. Now that would be a deadly combination.

      That's an idea.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Ultra instinct Omen is one of the most interesting forms ever created. Imagine combinging it with SS4. Now that would be a deadly combination.

      That's an idea.

      Yeah it might be near unstoppable like SS4B

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    • See, if UI is the limit to his potential, how could it combine with anything?

      If it can, UISS4 would be vastly superior to SS4B

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    • NervousShipper wrote: See, if UI is the limit to his potential, how could it combine with anything?

      If it can, UISS4 would be vastly superior to SS4B

      Who says it can't?

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    • Beyond the shell of his potential would be what says it can't.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Beyond the shell of his potential would be what says it can't.

      I don't agree with you but that's me.

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    • you can add increased potential onto a form, gohan in the cell saga is proof of this, same with him in the buu saga, when he shot at majin buu's container, he was noted to have equal power to his cell games self, despite weakening between the two arcs. however, when gohan drew out his potential, he had no more to increase it, as such, ss1 and 2 wouldn't work, as they've shown numerous times to be based on potential as well (3 is as well).

      UL is an omen of his potential, not an unleashed potential form, thereby, he would be able to stack a form on top of it, but he can't right now, he hasn't trained enough, also, he is constantly gaining more and more of his potential, so he won't be able to after he does. 

      also, a blue ss4 would depend on the limit of godly ki potential, UL is normal ki, as tien, piccolo, and roshi have sensed it, so, ss4 blue might actually be superior to ULSS or ULSS4.

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    • The Super Saiyan forms are multipliers, nothing more. Gohan can use Super Saiyan on top of Potential Unleashed simply because PU only allows him to access his power, while SS multiplies that power.

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    • no, ss is a ki increase, not a potential increase, it's been stated numerous times to do so, as we have seen it multiplies power and power level, which is ki, equally, they even say about ss2 gohan finally has a form that allows him to use his fullest potential (not really true, but you get the point). when gohan gets his potential unleashed he can't transform into any ss form (except in the non canon GT universe, where they have many different rules, like gogeta's fusion running out faster due to ss4, which never happened to gotenks, even though ss3 drains more than 4)

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    • If you think SS4 Gogeta's fusion was cut short because of the SS4 transformation, you don't know what you're talking about.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote: If you think SS4 Gogeta's fusion was cut short because of the SS4 transformation, you don't know what you're talking about.

      How do you know that? Can you prove it definitively?

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    • Fankid wrote: you can add increased potential onto a form, gohan in the cell saga is proof of this, same with him in the buu saga, when he shot at majin buu's container, he was noted to have equal power to his cell games self, despite weakening between the two arcs. however, when gohan drew out his potential, he had no more to increase it, as such, ss1 and 2 wouldn't work, as they've shown numerous times to be based on potential as well (3 is as well).

      UL is an omen of his potential, not an unleashed potential form, thereby, he would be able to stack a form on top of it, but he can't right now, he hasn't trained enough, also, he is constantly gaining more and more of his potential, so he won't be able to after he does. 

      also, a blue ss4 would depend on the limit of godly ki potential, UL is normal ki, as tien, piccolo, and roshi have sensed it, so, ss4 blue might actually be superior to ULSS or ULSS4.

      We have no idea how powerful either SSB4 or ULSS4 would be.

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    • What is ULSS4? Do you mean UISS4?

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    • NervousShipper wrote: What is ULSS4? Do you mean UISS4?

      Yeah that's what I meant.

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    • I was banned for a little while there.

      @hulk 10, I was not directly saying ss4blue is superior to ultra instinct, more that it’s possible since UI uses normal ki, as the non godly character can sense it, but 4 blue would be the potential unleashed state of god ki. This might not be the case, as goku’s godly ki potential is unknown.

      @blaizken rjcf You do not know what you’re talking about. Goku stated in the episode that ss4 uses much more power than base, shortening the length of fusion. Watch the end of the fight https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHSgQ-lg_wo, it might have been a guess, but A goku knows the rules of fusion, B it’s a different time line with different rules, and C this is likely the actual explaination, the show runners wouldn’t want to deceive us.

      Also, I might have not made this clear, it’s a ki increase based on potential, I accidentally said it’s just a ki increase when it is actually both, this has been stated and shown numerous times, you can see this in examples provided.

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    • It sure would be interesting to find out.

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    • imagine if ss4b was like the god ritual version of super saiyan god (not stacked super saiyan god) stacked onto UI

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    • hmm I don't think it would be as powerful as SS4UI

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    • No, it would be much much much more powerful, since ss4 is pathetic when compaired to any saiyan level in super.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: No, it would be much much much more powerful, since ss4 is pathetic when compaired to any saiyan level in super.

      That is a matter of opinion since there are no official sources to tell us which is stronger.

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    • The always state your opinions as if they're fact.

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    • That's what you do.

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    • If you take all the stuff that ssj4 has done and compare them to all the stuff SSG and SSB has done, it's pretty clear that SSG & SSB are vastly superior.

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    • lol at first I legit underestimated SSG in an hypthotetical battle against SSJ4 because I just watched the movie, but then after it was retconned and saw the anime version, I realized it just takes SSG to finish SSJ4.

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    • Yeah, at this point in the anime, I would say SSB Goku could solo SSJ4 Gogeta if he went all out with Kaioken and everything, thought it would probably be a pretty difficult fight.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: If you take all the stuff that ssj4 has done and compare them to all the stuff SSG and SSB has done, it's pretty clear that SSG & SSB are vastly superior.

      I disagree. For one thing feats don't mean much. Also the fact that Jiren is stronger than Belmod proves that god ki doesn't guarantee superiority.

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    • I mean, SSG and SSB are shown to be pretty much universe busters, but your opinion is your opinion and I respect that. It’s not like we’ll ever actually see a fight between the two.

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    • I've also seen the anime fight and I didn't see anything that seemed out of SS4's league

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    • Sure SSG is probably faster, but I don't see any good reason to support the notion that SSG, SSB or UI is stronger.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: I mean, SSG and SSB are shown to be pretty much universe busters, but your opinion is your opinion and I respect that. It’s not like we’ll ever actually see a fight between the two.

      True but the thing is any statement on which is stronger SSG and SSB, UI and SS4 is an opinion.

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    • Beerus's power is clearly superior to any Saiyan form though.

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    • It seems to me that SS4 is a lot like Jiren, you don't see much of its power, but its clearly incredibly strong.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      Sure SSG is probably faster, but I don't see any good reason to support the notion that SSG, SSB or UI is stronger.

      Assuming Super didn't take its non-canon status too far and completely ignore pre-established power multipliers as it did with so many other things (most egregiously the Potara fusion having a time limit), SSB must have a higher multiplier than SS4. That said, one has to bear in mind that Super Saiyan transformations are just that: power multipliers. The form's power depends on the user.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: It seems to me that SS4 is a lot like Jiren, you don't see much of its power, but its clearly incredibly strong.

      The same could be said about all the GoDs and Angels.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote: The form's power depends on the user.

      True, but the only ones with those forms are Goku, Vegeta, and their Fusions.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote: The form's power depends on the user.

      True, but the only ones with those forms are Goku, Vegeta, and their Fusions.

      If that's how we're going to measure, then SS4 Gogeta (and by extension, SS4) completely shits on everything from Super. Dude lightly touched a sphere of negative energy, turned it into positive energy, and purified the Earth. SSB Vegito didn't even cause that much damage to Fused Zamasu.

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    • I would have to disagree there. SSG Goku vs Beerus almost destroyed the universe, and SSB > SSG, plus that was early DBS Goku, who is nowhere close to current DBS Goku. And Vegito is stronger than both Goku and Vegeta combined. So that would mean Vegito is most likely Universal+ level (not saying that Gogeta isn’t though.) Also, Zamasu can regenerate, so it may have appeared he wasn’t doing damage, when he actually was. (Not to mention there is no blood in Super so being battle damaged in Super looks nothing like being battle damaged in DB, Z, & GT)

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: It seems to me that SS4 is a lot like Jiren, you don't see much of its power, but its clearly incredibly strong.

      The same could be said about all the GoDs and Angels.

      Yeah exactly my point.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:
      Sure SSG is probably faster, but I don't see any good reason to support the notion that SSG, SSB or UI is stronger.

      Assuming Super didn't take its non-canon status too far and completely ignore pre-established power multipliers as it did with so many other things (most egregiously the Potara fusion having a time limit), SSB must have a higher multiplier than SS4. That said, one has to bear in mind that Super Saiyan transformations are just that: power multipliers. The form's power depends on the user.

      Well the fusion time limit does explain why Goku and Vegeta defused when they originally fused. I don't think SSG must have a higher multiplier, it might but I don't think it must.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:
      I would have to disagree there. SSG Goku vs Beerus almost destroyed the universe, and SSB > SSG, plus that was early DBS Goku, who is nowhere close to current DBS Goku. And Vegito is stronger than both Goku and Vegeta combined. So that would mean Vegito is most likely Universal+ level (not saying that Gogeta isn’t though.) Also, Zamasu can regenerate, so it may have appeared he wasn’t doing damage, when he actually was. (Not to mention there is no blood in Super so being battle damaged in Super looks nothing like being battle damaged in DB, Z, & GT)

      The battle was destroying the universe because Goku couldn't cancel out Beerus's power. Beerus was, in essence, the one destroying the universe, by not holding back enough.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:


      Hulk10 wrote:
      Sure SSG is probably faster, but I don't see any good reason to support the notion that SSG, SSB or UI is stronger.
      Assuming Super didn't take its non-canon status too far and completely ignore pre-established power multipliers as it did with so many other things (most egregiously the Potara fusion having a time limit), SSB must have a higher multiplier than SS4. That said, one has to bear in mind that Super Saiyan transformations are just that: power multipliers. The form's power depends on the user.
      Well the fusion time limit does explain why Goku and Vegeta defused when they originally fused. I don't think SSG must have a higher multiplier, it might but I don't think it must.

      I said SSB. Read my blog for my reasoning on why SSB must have a higher multiplier than SS4. As for the fusion, it was already established why they defused: Buu's insides. Super decided to crap all over that, because it's non-canon.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      NegativeSymptom wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote: The form's power depends on the user.

      True, but the only ones with those forms are Goku, Vegeta, and their Fusions.

      If that's how we're going to measure, then SS4 Gogeta (and by extension, SS4) completely shits on everything from Super. Dude lightly touched a sphere of negative energy, turned it into positive energy, and purified the Earth. SSB Vegito didn't even cause that much damage to Fused Zamasu.

      True

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote: The battle was destroying the universe because Goku couldn't cancel out Beerus's power. Beerus was, in essence, the one destroying the universe, by not holding back enough.

      Yes but Goku was the one clashing with Beerus, which means he was responsible for a big portion of it. He had to have been, otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to clash with Beerus. Plus the Kais said that those two would destroy the universe if they kept clashing, which would mean they both had a part in it.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote: The battle was destroying the universe because Goku couldn't cancel out Beerus's power. Beerus was, in essence, the one destroying the universe, by not holding back enough.

      Yes but Goku was the one clashing with Beerus, which means he was responsible for a big portion of it. He had to have been, otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to clash with Beerus. Plus the Kais said that those two would destroy the universe if they kept clashing, which would mean they both had a part in it.

      Yeah, wood also burns, but it's the fire that does the actual damage. So sure, Goku had a part in it, but he was just fuel to get Beerus to use more of his power.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote: I said SSB. Read my blog for my reasoning on why SSB must have a higher multiplier than SS4. As for the fusion, it was already established why they defused: Buu's insides. Super decided to crap all over that, because it's non-canon.

      But Toriyama, the original creator, is heavily involved with Super, he writes how he wants it to go. Plus Super has its own manga. How is it non canon?

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote: I said SSB. Read my blog for my reasoning on why SSB must have a higher multiplier than SS4. As for the fusion, it was already established why they defused: Buu's insides. Super decided to crap all over that, because it's non-canon.

      But Toriyama, the original creator, is heavily involved with Super, plus Super has its own manga. How is it non canon?

      Because, again, it completely ignores pre-established canon. Also, keep in mind that the comic is simply an adaptation of the cartoon, so the cartoon is what we should be looking at when it comes to judging Super.

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    • It changed like two things. Doesn’t mean it’s non canon. Plenty of shows and anime do that.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:
      It changed like two things. Doesn’t mean it’s non canon. Plenty of shows and anime do that.

      If by "two", you mean several "groups of two" (several pairs), then sure, just two.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote:
      Assuming Super didn't take its non-canon status too far

      Is that supposed to be a joke? because is not a funny one...

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Blaziken rjcf wrote:
      Assuming Super didn't take its non-canon status too far
      Is that supposed to be a joke? because is not a funny one...

      I feel the same way you do, but Toriyama apparently thinks the joke (Super) is hilarious, the way he keeps it going...

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote: If by "two", you mean several "groups of two" (several pairs), then sure, just two.

      I see way more inconsistencies in DBZ than in Super. Plus the fusion time limit thing you mentioned isn’t in there.

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    • JFC Blaise can you stop f*cking trolling?

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    • Super could be considered non canon, this is if you take only the original manga as canon, Gregory is in Super, but not the manga, either that, or they just added him in and Super is still in the Manga continuity, or it could be Kai canon due to using scenes from Kai. I have no opinion anymore on which is canon or not, i don't care, so just look into and critique what i said.

      @Blaizen

      That piece of information about the atmosphere inside Buu, was never cemented/had no real proof, so it's not really proof, it's just a retcon. Before you said i did the same, i provided substantial evidence, and it was never contradicted.

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    • Fankid wrote: Super could be considered non canon, this is if you take only the original manga as canon, Gregory is in Super, but not the manga, either that, or they just added him in and Super is still in the Manga continuity, or it could be Kai canon due to using scenes from Kai. I have no opinion anymore on which is canon or not, i don't care, so just look into and critique what i said.

      Using reasoning such as Super is non canon due to changing a rule, does not work, i did use that reasoning before, but that's because it was likely to be true, this was a non cemented piece of information, so it's a retcon.

      That is a good attitude to have

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    • @hulk 10

      Thank you, and the same could be said about your polite demeanor.

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    • Fankid wrote: @hulk 10

      Thank you, and the same could be said about your polite demeanor.

      Thanks. I try to be polite and respect others opinions even if I don't agree with them.

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    • That's respectible, i try to be either polite, or treat others how they treat me.

      Back to the topic at hand, if Vegeta used UI, how strong would he be, i'd say equal, as Vegeta commonly displays potential equal to Goku. Surpassing Goku during the RoF saga, having the same boost of power during the Universe 6 arc, and being equal in the Tournament of power.

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    • Fankid wrote: That's respectible, i try to be either polite, or treat others how they treat me.

      Back to the topic at hand, if Vegeta used UI, how strong would he be, i'd say equal, as Vegeta commonly displays potential equal to Goku. Surpassing Goku during the RoF saga, having the same boost of power during the Universe 6 arc, and being equal in the Tournament of power.

      I'd say Vegeta and Goku would be equal in power in UI

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      JFC Blaise can you stop f*cking trolling?

      Not trolling, just poking a bit of fun at people who're so blind they can't see Super violates established lore and make excuses for it. "Canon" as an absolute term doesn't exist.

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    • So you're a half-troll.

      Anyway, I think if Vegeta gets UI he'll have the reverse issue from Goku. That is, he'll have the "attack instinct", but lack the defence.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      So you're a half-troll.

      Anyway, I think if Vegeta gets UI he'll have the reverse issue from Goku. That is, he'll have the "attack instinct", but lack the defence.

      If you can't tell my statements are in jest, I don't know what to say.

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    • Hoo boy......

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    • Nah I got you fam. Anyway, I think it would be awesome for gohan's final form to be the canon version of ssiv like berserk is for legendary

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    • a dragon ball super version of SS4 might be cool. But I am reluctant to label Broly and his forms as noncanon. The movies he is in are noncanon to the main anime series. But that doesn't make Broly noncanon. At least in my book. Same applies to SS4.

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    • ... canon nearly universally means to the main timeline.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      a dragon ball super version of SS4 might be cool. But I am reluctant to label Broly and his forms as noncanon. The movies he is in are noncanon to the main anime series. But that doesn't make Broly noncanon. At least in my book. Same applies to SS4.

      ...yeah, it kind of does.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: ... canon nearly universally means to the main timeline.

      If they wanted it to be thought of that way, it should be referred to as the main timeline, rather than canon.......

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    • They are almost always synonymous.

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    • On this wikia yes. No doubt that is your point.

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    • In every series in every genre in every medium. With few if any exceptions. Yes.

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    • Canon is actually stronger than main timeline, because alternate timeless can sometimes be canon too, while events allegedly in the main timeline can also be non-canon.

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    • Canon can be used as “main series”, but it can also be used in different context, saying “that universe shares a canon” is an example, as canon is in the main universe of that story.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction) I know this is Wikipedia, but from what I found, most sources agree.

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    • It's essentially the "main continuity". The story line that the creator prioritizes. It may or may not involve timelines. DB actually has the liberty of having timelines which not every fiction has access to.

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    • Fankid wrote:
      That's respectible, i try to be either polite, or treat others how they treat me.

      Back to the topic at hand, if Vegeta used UI, how strong would he be, i'd say equal, as Vegeta commonly displays potential equal to Goku. Surpassing Goku during the RoF saga, having the same boost of power during the Universe 6 arc, and being equal in the Tournament of power.

      I think there are a couple of fair reasons as to why he should get UI in this arc. As for how much strong he would be, I can only assume he would be equal to UI Goku like it happened initially with SSB in RoF. They were both equal but then Goku managed to merge Kaio-Ken with SSB.

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    • So you are saying they would be equal, but goku might surpass him with a form.

      Happy Christmas everyone, well, at least everyone with a similar time zone, or one ahead of my time.

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    • Fankid wrote: So you are saying they would be equal, but goku might surpass him with a form.

      Happy Christmas everyone, well, at least everyone with a similar time zone, or one ahead of my time.

      Yeah actually I take that back about them being equal at this point only because of what Piccolo said about SSJ2 Kefla being stronger than UI Goku's earlier level. That, coupled with what Piccolo also said about UI keep getting stronger during the fight with Jiren tells me if Vegeta managed to UI (Hope so) he would still be slightly weaker.

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    • Happy holidays everyone

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    • Someone came at me saying how Goku isn’t universe level, I absolutely killed their argument.

      So does ultra instinct keep growing because goku is gaining more and more of his full potential.

      Goku’s ultra instinct form is finally confirmed to be 2 x stronger than the u7 spirit bomb, which generally means it must be at least 32 - 80 x stronger than ssb.

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    • When someone says they killed an argument I feel that its just an opinion.

      But it seems possible that Ultra Instinct keeps growing.

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    • It’s not really an opinion, because they used wrong facts, so I showed what actually happened, example, they said that beerus would be killed when the universe was destroyed, but I debunked this by showing that he absorbed it. He also said that an energy release from their aura is stronger than the character, which I debunked.

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    • Fankid wrote: It’s not really an opinion, because they used wrong facts, so I showed what actually happened, example, they said that beerus would be killed when the universe was destroyed, but I debunked this by showing that he absorbed it.

      Bad idea to use that argument during the Universe Survival Saga dude.

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    • What do you mean? Is it goku absorbing that spirit bomb, that was due to will, this was sheer power.

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    • Fankid wrote: What do you mean? Is it goku absorbing that spirit bomb, that was due to will, this was sheer power.

      true but Goku isn't a god of destruction. You said Beerus, not Goku

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    • Beerus absorbed it due to power, not goku, so what you said there might go for my point.

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    • if Goku and 17 fused, would 17's endless stamina allow Goku to remain in UI (or SSBKx20) form indefinitely?

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    • Well yeah, the fusion takes the best qualities of the character, Vegito was alive and not half or fully dead from Vegeta's side after all, and Kefla had the potential of Caulifa and the forms of Kale, Fusion Zamasu is an exception, but the show runner revealed that was due to them mentally and physically separating, so he'd have perfect immortality if not for that, not to mention all fusions have the techniques and physicality of each fusee. So logically infinite ki would be a dominant trate, especially since the robotic parts would still blend with the fusion.

      Another question, would the cybernetic parts be halved, or would Goku blend with them? I'd say yes, but i'd like you guys' opinion.

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    • You know there's no use trying to rationalize it with logic of these fusion rules. At the end of the day it's all going to be the writers going with whatever they think is 'coolest'.

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    • He'd probably have infinite energy then, which writer wouldn't want Goku to have infinite energy to beat Jiren or some other big bad, though the fusion would defuse in a moment, Ul 17 could beat him up in that moment. But that's interpretation, some writer might be like, "Goku needs limits for more interesting developments".

      Idk if anyone wanted to touch up on this, but, Goku has more potential than Gohan i guess, this just proves it.

      Did anyone else find Goku discussing to the Kais about unleashing his potential as a build up to this form?

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    • Well going by Z, Gohan was always the one with the potential. However there are areas that Gohan can't access due to being a half-Saiyan, which Goku is able to reach. God Saiyan forms and by extension Ultra Instinct is out of reach for Gohan, so ofc Goku is the one to get there.

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    • Do we know half saiyans can't be gods?

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    • We don't.

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    • Well no. It's possible they could get God-ki like Vegeta did, but I don't think they can access the original Super Saiyan God via ritual. They were already bending the ritual's rules by having half Saiyans partake in it let alone being the receiver of the God-ki.

      One could make the argument that Gohan and other half Saiyans never tried for those forms, but the ability to acquire new forms isn't the same as raw potential. Gohan's raw potential is supposed to be unrivaled.

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    • There is no reason why they shouldn't have that ability

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    • Just like they had no reason they shouldn't be able to turn Super Saiyan 4?

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Just like they had no reason they shouldn't be able to turn Super Saiyan 4?

      Exactly. If you are being serious about that question

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    • Dude, half Saiyans can't turn Super Saiyan 4. It's a rule.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Dude, half Saiyans can't turn Super Saiyan 4. It's a rule.

      I initially thought that, but after careful consideration I realized that the reason Vegeta didn't ascend to SS4 when infected with Baby was because he wasn't in control of his body. To ascend to SS4 the Saiyan must gain conscious control over the Golden Great Ape, something that is impossible if they are being mind controlled.

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    • It’s not a rule for every half saiyan, Gohan has a tail after all, he’s gone great ape before. The only thing Hohan would need is the physical talent.

      @Hulk 10 That seems like a reasonable explanation, but only half one, bulma explained that vegeta’s body wouldn’t be able to handle it at the time, but he trained and could handle the form.

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    • Plus, rules are only rules until they want to do something different. Case in point: Potara fusion.

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    • Fankid wrote: It’s not a rule for every half saiyan, Gohan has a tail after all, he’s gone great ape before. The only thing Hohan would need is the physical talent.

      @Hulk 10 That seems like a reasonable explanation, but only half one, bulma explained that vegeta’s body would be able to handle it.

      No she theorizes that Vegeta should have been able to do it do.

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    • I’ll look into it

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    • Fankid wrote: I’ll look into it

      Good idea. After bulma said she theorized Vegeta should be able to do it too and Vegeta theorized that it was possible he wasn't able to transform due to the presence of Baby in him. Which he theorizes might make him impure. But that seems very unlikely

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    • https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hdbkkR5KM4 She says he was too weak to withstand it at 2:58, vegeta also says he didn’t have pure blood at the time due to baby right before, which I also think is unlikely

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    • So She theorises he could do it after he train intensely to surpass goku.

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    • I guess so. But if they do what they, what's clear is they don't want Gohan to get Super Saiyan 4 or God-ki.

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    • Fankid wrote: So She theorises he could do it after he train intensely to surpass goku.

      Which dub did you get it from?

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    • haha, dub. the worst

      Anyway, if Vegeta can train into Godhood, Half saiyans should be fine training to 4... although why they would want to I don't know.

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    • @stryzzar Well in super he can’t use a form with his unleashed potential, that’d probably be why. Idk why for GT, in the GT time line he can stack forms on top of his potential unleashed state. GT hates Gohan conformed.

      @hulk10 The funimation dub, on gomovies.tech, there are subtitles from the Japanese dub.

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    • I watched that and she didn't say that.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: haha, dub. the worst

      Anyway, if Vegeta can train into Godhood, Half saiyans should be fine training to 4... although why they would want to I don't know.

      Because you regard SS4 as weak.

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    • @hulk10 What did bulma say.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: haha, dub. the worst

      Anyway, if Vegeta can train into Godhood, Half saiyans should be fine training to 4... although why they would want to I don't know.

      Because you regard SS4 as weak.

      Only compared to anything in Super.

      Edit: can we at least agree that Jiren can kick Gogeta 4's ass?

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    • @nervousahipper

      Ss4 unleashes the potential of the user, it’s not a specific multiplier, this means that it’s as strong as Gohan’s potential unleashed state, so it’s comparable to a blue power up. In GT it is a far lower multiplier, over 10000 by scaling, not 4000.

      Jiren would fodderise Gogeta, as would even base goku.

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    • She said that his body may not have been able to handle the power. Not that he was too weak.

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    • Interesting. Also, do you agree with my comment above.

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    • Yeah Jiren solos all of GT. He'd wreck SSB Vegito who would already beat SS4 Gogeta.

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    • True. Jiren shook infinite nothingness and overpowered time, which both require infinite power.

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    • That's the downside of this show, exaggeration of power to the point of ridiculousness... and then powering up further.

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    • Hulk10
      Hulk10 removed this reply because:
      not necessary
      03:27, December 26, 2017
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    • Jiren would likely be the victor. But I wouldn't be too sure of him being the winner all the time.

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    • Jiren could solo a potara fusion of Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta without powering up.

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    • @hulk 10 I finally found how much ss4 multiplied goku’s power, I won’t show the method, it takes too much scaling, but at least 10000 times exactly.

      This also makes shadow dragon saga ss4 goku 400 million times stronger than Buu saga ss3, who was superior to a being capable of destroying a galaxy, it doesn’t mean he’s multi galaxy level, but he’s strong, with gogeta being 24-96 x higher, or 9.6 billion - 38.4 billion x galaxy level.

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    • I just found out that the GT perfect files state that SS4 is a limit breaker rather than a multiplier, like Ultra Instinct Omen. Which leads me to say it has more in common with Ultra Instinct Omen than SSB.

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    • A limit breaker should still have a multiplier, unless you're saying each time you use the form it amplifies power by a different amount.

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    • AHAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, that's priceless. Honestly I think the guy who made it is just trolling. There's no way someone could be dumb enough to use eye color to determine a form is stronger.

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    • People used hair colour to do that with SSG

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    • But nothing as stupid as "gold > silver"

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    • You guys do know that gold is symbolic of power in japan right? So your opinion would probably not stand in japan.

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    • So what? By that logic the main Super Saiyan line should be stronger than Super Saiyan 4 because their hair is golden yellow.

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    • Good point but red is also considered a color of power.

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    • Stryz is right.

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    • I've heard that gold is a symbol of purity in japan.

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    • Yeah, and gold in db is a symbol for not being as powerful a hair colour as red or blue.

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    • maybe. Given that its a limit breaker form I believe that it has more in common with Ultra instinct Omen than SSB but I am hesitant to claim it has the same power to access Ultra Instinct.

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    • Golden hair means rebelion in Japan, so the Super Saiyan forms would make people think they are powerful delinquents. Idk much else, frankly, i'm not into Japanese culture.

      Toriama stated in an interview that SSG is red because it's meant to symbolise power, "visually speaking" in his words, and that SSB is meant to represent control and tranquility.

      SS4 does have that in common, there is also the fact that it gives black spiky hair, but a different variant, but SS4 makes it difficult to reason with other foes, SS4 is also magic based in the GT perfect files, which we both used.

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    • I don't recall it ever being stated that SS4 is magic. Also I interpreted Goku's stating that SS4 increases his aggression was just a taunting method.

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    • The Truth Behind Goku's Super Saiyan 4 Appearance - YouTube. He shows the page in this video.

      I agree that it is a taunting method, it makes sense.

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    • Hulk10
      Hulk10 removed this reply because:
      not needed
      00:15, December 27, 2017
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    • The golden Super Saiyan forms were meant to represent savage aggressiveness, losing control and letting all the anger out. Super Saiyan Blue with its ki-control is all about a calm mind and retaining control over one's own strength. Those two are essentially opposites, one was letting all the potential out while the other is taking control of the power that was released.

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    • so sex as an angry teen vs sex in a comitted relationship after 10 years.

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    • True, SS4 is all about combining the power of the Super Saiyan, the relentless ferocity of the Giant Oozaru and the traits of the baseline Saiyan, one could say

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    • What would you do if you could only go Super Saiyan? If you do not know, it's a 50x multiplier / You could punch with and withstand 10,000 joules, lift 2500 kg, and run at 1000 km/h

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    • Fankid wrote: What would you do if you could only go Super Saiyan? If you do not know, it's a 50x multiplier / You could punch with and withstand 10,000 joules, lift 2500 kg, and run at 1000 km/h

      Hmmm well I'd crush the terrorists, and the gangs that lurk throughout the world.

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    • i forgot to mention, you could leap 75 feet up / 20 meters / a 7.5 story building.

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    • Yeah.

      Since SS4 is a limit breaker like Ultra Instinct Omen the two forms are similar.

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    • Hulk10
      Hulk10 removed this reply because:
      reasons
      00:03, January 3, 2018
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    • Hulk10 wrote: Yeah.

      Since SS4 is a limit breaker like Ultra Instinct Omen the two forms are similar.

      But wildly different in power. Ss4 is to UI what videl is to ssj kefla

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    • Hulk10 wrote: Yeah.

      Since SS4 is a limit breaker like Ultra Instinct Omen the two forms are similar.

      Nah, I would say that Goku's change is similar to UI"O"

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    • Is that a form, or is it the spirit bomb itself protecting him?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Is that a form, or is it the spirit bomb itself protecting him?

      It's up to interpretation. But to me, he did gain a new form, especially when Goku gained a similar form *cough* UI -S- *cough* and since Goku started travelling to Hell and dissapearing mysteriously with no halo. And I don't think Spirit Bombs protect you last time I checked.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Yeah.

      Since SS4 is a limit breaker like Ultra Instinct Omen the two forms are similar.

      But wildly different in power. Ss4 is to UI what videl is to ssj kefla

      The difference in power between SS4 and UIO is up to interpretation.

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    • YEAH, in the same way that the Big Bang is up to interpretation, some people disagree with it, but they're wrong.

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    • No totally different. We are talking about fiction here. The Big Bang is fact, or a scientific theory.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Yeah.

      Since SS4 is a limit breaker like Ultra Instinct Omen the two forms are similar.

      Nah, I would say that Goku's change is similar to UI"O"

      Well that's up to interpretation

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    • Hulk10 wrote: No totally different. We are talking about fiction here. The Big Bang is fact, or a scientific theory.

      You're right.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: No totally different. We are talking about fiction here. The Big Bang is fact, or a scientific theory.

      You're right.

      Yeah. I know science

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    • Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 seems to be more like a limit breaker.

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    • Seems like =/= is

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Seems like =/= is

      What is?

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    • Curious why you don't think its the strong saiyan form? Which do you think is stronger/why?

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    • I think that Ultra Full Power SS4 and Ultra Instinct are about in the same league, as they are both limit breaker forms.

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    • Ultra super mega really cool badass SS4 form would still be somewhere between God and Blue

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    • We will never agree on that.

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    • Ultra Instinct is something else entirely, not part of the Super Saiyan line. It's about achieving a special state which isn't about raw power like SSJ4.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Ultra Instinct is something else entirely, not part of the Super Saiyan line. It's about achieving a special state which isn't about raw power like SSJ4.

      Which is why Goku's change is more comparable to Ultra Instinct -Sign- than any other form.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:
      Ultra Instinct is something else entirely, not part of the Super Saiyan line. It's about achieving a special state which isn't about raw power like SSJ4.

      Which is why Goku's change is more comparable to Ultra Instinct -Sign- than any other form.

      Not too sure if that's an actual legit thing. The page wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for that Q&A.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Not too sure if that's an actual legit thing. The page wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for that Q&A.

      Well, how could Goku even survive Omega Shenron's attacks in the first place? How could he even traverse Hell without dying? Why does he suddenly dissapear whenever he's done talking to Krillin, Goku Jr., and Piccolo? Why did his clothes suddenly come off of him? Face it, they are both enhanced base forms that were born through Goku pushing through the limit in an embodiment of light/dark energy and they can't get attacked in any way.

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    • Well idk, but given that it was some random deux est machina power that's never explained, named, or even acknowledged in-universe, then it's unlikely to be on the same level as Ultra Instinct which is heavily hyped and given thorough explanation before and after debuting.

      That whole Goku meeting his friends thing is more like he ascended to a higher plane of existence rather than some transformation/state.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Well idk, but given that it was some random deux est machina power that's never explained, named, or even acknowledged in-universe, then it's unlikely to be on the same level as Ultra Instinct which is heavily hyped and given thorough explanation before and after debuting.

      That whole Goku meeting his friends thing is more like he ascended to a higher plane of existence rather than some transformation/state.

      That is what the transformation gives him the ability to do. Just like how Ultra Instinct -Sign- gave him Ultra Instinct and the ability to gain more power constantly. And that is biased. Just because it isn't acknowledged doesn't mean it is not on the same level. They are very similar but I gotta say, that change is WAYY stronger than the -Sign- form, he could even be more powerful than Zen-Oh himself, especially after the 100 years.

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    • No, it's exactly because it's unacknowledged that makes it less important or on the same level and it's more than a little ironic that you would call someone else out on their bias.

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    • More powerful than Zeno? Nah sorry, no way. They seemed to make it look like he went to the same place Shenron goes to when not in wish granting mode, so at best he's in the same league as Shenron or Omega.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: More powerful than Zeno? Nah sorry, no way. They seemed to make it look like he went to the same place Shenron goes to when not in wish granting mode, so at best he's in the same league as Shenron or Omega.

      By that token if a Saiyan had the power of a SS4 in their baseline form and they achieved SS4 then they might be able to overpower Omega Shenron.

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    • I guess? Fusion Dance isn't that powerful anymore and there have already been several ways to surpass it.

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    • Yeah. I still believe that if not regular Super Saiyan 4 than Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 would be able to match SSB and or Ultra Instinct Sign and Beyond Super Saiyan Blue. And no one will be able to convince me otherwise.

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    • Hate to break it to you, but Pluto is a dwarf planet.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Hate to break it to you, but Pluto is a dwarf planet.

      How is that fact even remotely relevant? Please use something relevant to make whatever point you think you think you have.

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    • Using irrelevant facts invalidates arguments.

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    • I would think my point was obvious. Things change, ssj4 isn't nearly as great as it once was.

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    • According to you its not as great as it was.

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    • Hulk you do have a point. Just because you don't prefer it doesn't mean it's bad, or non-canon, a lot of DB fans really make the assumption that it is bad because they don't prefer it. But to be as unbiased as possible, Nervous is right somewhat. Super Saiyan 4 is obsolete and Super Saiyan Blue is the new form fans marvel at now. Same can be said with Goku's change and Ultra Instinct -Sign- as well as Ultra-full-power Super Saiyan 4 and the form beyond Super Saiyan Blue.

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    • I do agree that Super Saiyan Blue is the form a lot of people marvel at. But it doesn't mean that SS4 or Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 is obsolete.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      I do agree that Super Saiyan Blue is the form a lot of people marvel at. But it doesn't mean that SS4 or Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 is obsolete.

      Ratings say otherwise. Critics even notify it is a downgrade of Z.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:
      I do agree that Super Saiyan Blue is the form a lot of people marvel at. But it doesn't mean that SS4 or Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 is obsolete.

      Ratings say otherwise. Critics even notify it is a downgrade of Z.

      That's GT your talking about not SS4 and Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      More powerful than Zeno? Nah sorry, no way. They seemed to make it look like he went to the same place Shenron goes to when not in wish granting mode, so at best he's in the same league as Shenron or Omega.

      Are you kidding me? Shenron is weak as s***. So now, you are telling me King Piccolo is the strongest in the universe because he killed Shenron? And I said he COULD BE, not that he is. But remember, Goku TRAINED during those 100 years and based on his feats in GT, like how he was constantly getting stronger than what he was before the previous saga - which by the way, all of those conflicts only took place in a year - 100 years is a lot of time, meaning that he would get really strong. Like his strength would be off the charts not to mention how strong he became after just changing was strong enough to take Omega Shenron's Negative Karma Ball and more. He might not be as strong as -Sign- Goku, but after 100 years, defnitely. He is stronger than any character besides Zeno and Akira Toriyama so far.

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    • Why are you using GT as an example when people will try to tear it apart due to it being noncanon?

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    • He's not physically strong, but he's divine. If powerhouses like Goku got that divinity than it would be exponential power. Black Star Shenron still turned Goku into a kid didn't he? Does that mean Goku is weaker than Nameless Namekian? No it doesn't.

      The Zeno comparison still comes completely out of left field. It might be more reasonable to put him at Infinite Zamasu or Jiren, but putting him at Zeno makes zero sense.

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    • SS4B or UISS4 which would be a match for Jiren I wonder. I think both.

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    • LimitBreaker

      lol

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    • so the mastered version of Ultra Instinct has been revealed. and its the strongest form in the main storyline.

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    • Seems like strongest form of all time actually

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      so the mastered version of Ultra Instinct has been revealed. and its the strongest form in the main storyline.

      Its not a power up Ultra Instinct is a technique its not the strongest.

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    • Actually Mastered Ultra Instinct is definitely a transformation. There's a very obvious change in physiology when accessing it.

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    • I'd still say its debatable whether its the strongest of all time, because SS4 does not exist in the same canon.

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    • While being non-canon GT and Heroes are still a part of DB franchise, a part of DB history.  "In this form, Goku is the strongest he has ever been in history." Yes that also mean stronger than SSJ4. Like I said before SSJ4 is a part of DB history.

      And if this explanation is not enough for you then... In new DB Heroes promo video we can see Goku SSB and Goku SSJ4 fighting against each others. They seem to be equal.  Considering how much more powerful UI is compared to SSBKaiokenx20 (not to mention Perfected UI) it's really easy to guess that it's his strongest transformation in DB franchise so far.

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    • Meshifuari Arimota wrote: While being non-canon GT and Heroes are still a part of DB franchise, a part of DB history.  "In this form, Goku is the strongest he has ever been in history." Yes that also mean stronger than SSJ4. Like I said before SSJ4 is a part of DB history.

      And if this explanation is not enough for you then... In new DB Heroes promo video we can see Goku SSB and Goku SSJ4 fighting against each others. They seem to be equal.  Considering how much more powerful UI is compared to SSBKaiokenx20 (not to mention Perfected UI) it's really easy to guess that it's his strongest transformation in DB franchise so far.

      By that logic than Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 might be equal to Instinct Complete. But like I said its debatable.

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    • It's really not. Trying to elevate SSj4 like that just makes GT more laughable.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: It's really not. Trying to elevate SSj4 like that just makes GT more laughable.

      That sounds like an opinion. But your welcome to it.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      By that logic than Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 might be equal to Instinct Complete. But like I said its debatable.

      B y that logic Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 would be comparable to SSB Kaioken x20.  Nothing more, nothing less.

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    • Meshifuari Arimota wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      By that logic than Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 might be equal to Instinct Complete. But like I said its debatable.

      B y that logic Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 would be comparable to SSB Kaioken x20.  Nothing more, nothing less.

      I don't agree with that but then again we don't have to agree.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      I don't agree with that but then again we don't have to agree.

      Agree on that

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    • I will say this, complete Ultra Instinct is definitely the most powerful form in the primary canon. I feel however that we can't use this wiki to determine which form is the strongest.

      (on the other hand, if you can take Super Saiyan Blue to Beyond Super Saiyan Blue, why can't you do the same to Super Saiyan 4?)

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    • If Regular UI, which is an incomplete form, was already stronger than anything we’ve seen so far, then Mastered UI would most definitely be the absolute strongest form in the franchise no question. So I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say Mastered UI is the strongest form, even though it’s already very clear that it is.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: If Regular UI, which is an incomplete form, was already stronger than anything we’ve seen so far, then Mastered UI would most definitely be the absolute strongest form in the franchise no question. So I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say Mastered UI is the strongest form, even though it’s already very clear that it is.

      I would say its not clear that it is.

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    • Don’t see why you would think that when it has already been said to be Goku’s absolute strongest form but ok. You do you buddy

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    • Hulk10 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: It's really not. Trying to elevate SSj4 like that just makes GT more laughable.

      That sounds like an opinion. But your welcome to it.

      It sounds like an opinion, but it's actually an objective fact. Also, *you're.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: Don’t see why you would think that when it has already been said to be Goku’s absolute strongest form but ok. You do you buddy

      My point is that the overview says that its the strongest form in history. That is open to different interpretations.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: It's really not. Trying to elevate SSj4 like that just makes GT more laughable.

      That sounds like an opinion. But your welcome to it.

      It sounds like an opinion, but it's actually an objective fact. Also, *you're.

      I disagree, its not an objective fact.

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    • The only other forms outside of the main canon is Golden Great Ape and SSJ4. Do not sit here and try to tell me that SSJ4 comes anywhere near UI.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: The only other form outside of the canon is Golden Great Ape and SSJ4. Do not sit here and try to tell me that SSJ4 comes anywhere near UI.

      I fail to see how it or one its variations can't.

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    • The fact that SSJ4 shows nothing to suggest it is anywhere near any form from Super.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: The fact that SSJ4 shows nothing to suggest it is anywhere near any form from Super.

      Just because we haven't seen any of forms from GT go up against the foes and forms from Super doesn't mean that you can infer that Super is way above GT. You can if you want. But its not the only way to look at things.

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    • Its simple, you compare everything SSJ4 has done to the things that the forms from Super has done and you can see that SSJ4 doesn't come anywhere close to any of them.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: Its simple, you compare everything SSJ4 has done to the things that the forms from Super has done and you can see that SSJ4 doesn't come anywhere close to any of them.

      Well I have a simple response, the only reason that seems to be the case is that Super is younger than GT.

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    • Super being a more recent series than GT has nothing to do with how strong one form is compared to another

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    • NegativeSymptom
      NegativeSymptom removed this reply because:
      .
      19:01, February 18, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Just because we've never seen ss4 fight ultra instinct complete doesn't mean we can infer that one is superior to the other. I would like more data to be certain.

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    • Gods of Destruction have not mastered UI. Goku has. This places Goku above the Gods of Destruction and possibly even into the realm of Angels. Now are you going to tell me that SSJ4 > Gods of Destruction and is = to UI/Angels?

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: Gods of Destruction have not mastered UI. Goku has. This places Goku above the Gods of Destruction and possibly even into the realm of Angels. Now are you going to tell me that SSJ4 > Gods of Destruction and is = to UI?

      Maybe not the baseline SS4 but there is no reason to think a variation of it couldn't like say Gogeta SS4.

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    • That really has nothing to do with the argument. This is form vs form. Not SSJ4 Gogeta vs UI Goku. But if you want to make it that way, Goku would still win. Again, he's beyond the Gods of Destruction and now rivals the Angels.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: That really has nothing to do with the argument. This is form vs form. Not SSJ4 Gogeta vs UI Goku. But if you want to make it that way, Goku would still win. Again, he's beyond the Gods of Destruction and now rivals the Angels.

      We don't know if he has surpassed all the gods of destruction yet. He might, but we don't know that yet. And by the way variations of SS4 still count as forms. But placing arguments is pointless if neither contender accepts the other's arguments.

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    • I also base my assumption on the fact that SS4 brings out the individual's true potential. So the form increases in power the more potential you have. But I know this argument won't be accepted.

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    • But we saw SSJ4 fighting SSBlue, they were equal. So... 

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    • Did we see it in a game that has it's own rules? Where Super saiyans can beat gods of destruction?

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    • We saw it in the video promoting the game DB Heroes. While it does have it's own plot and timeline, it also sticks to the basic rules and established order, (while working around it) . While it might be a quite unsatisfactory answer, DB Heroes is still a official part of DB universe, just like GT. So it can be used for comparison the forms.  

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    • It really can't. And even if it could, those are 2 completely different Goku's than Super and GT.

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    • Meshifuari Arimota wrote: But we saw SSJ4 fighting SSBlue, they were equal. So... 

      So what?

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: It really can't. And even if it could, those are 2 completely different Goku's than Super and GT.

      You might feel that way but its the only comparison we have so we have to use it. Whether or not people like it.

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    • A comparison of 2 Goku’s that we are completely unfamiliar with. For all we know both of them could be weaker than base DBS Goku, we have no idea. So we can’t use it as a “comparison”

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    • Going by feats, ssj4 Gogeta would lose to ssg Goku

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    • Exactly.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: A comparison of 2 Goku’s that we are completely unfamiliar with. For all we know both of them could be weaker than base DBS Goku, we have no idea. So we can’t use it as a “comparison”

      Actually the other Goku aside from Xeno Goku was the DBS Goku as I recall.

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    • No it wasn't DBS Goku, his outfit was different and it had a weird symbol on it. 

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote: No it wasn't DBS Goku, his outfit was different and it had a weird symbol on it. 

      I found an image of it and it looked the same to me.

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    • Skar800 wrote: Well I did the math with Frieza.

      Namek's destruction in 5 minutes = 10 episodes

      Tournament of Power in 48 minutes = 96 episodes

      I Feel Like Ur Forgetting That The Original Anime Had Fillers During That Time Period.

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    • Meshifuari Arimota wrote: We saw it in the video promoting the game DB Heroes. While it does have it's own plot and timeline, it also sticks to the basic rules and established order, (while working around it) . While it might be a quite unsatisfactory answer, DB Heroes is still a official part of DB universe, just like GT. So it can be used for comparison the forms.  

      lol GT Was Never An Official Part Of The DB Universe.

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    • Bob1200 wrote:

      Skar800 wrote: Well I did the math with Frieza.

      Namek's destruction in 5 minutes = 10 episodes

      Tournament of Power in 48 minutes = 96 episodes

      I Feel Like Ur Forgetting That The Original Anime Had Fillers During That Time Period.

      Yeah my bad I forgot to state the obvious about exaggerating on that post.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Going by feats, ssj4 Gogeta would lose to ssg Goku

      I wouldn't go that far, but certainly anything after U6 Saga stomps all of GT.

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    • I personally don't usually use feats to gauge power. I can see why people would say everything after U6 saga stomps all of GT but I don't agree, after all GT Goku is stronger than DBS Goku in base form.

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    • GT Goku was only stronger in the original continuity that continued on from Z, but Super is in a new continuity. If we progress from Tournament of Power onwards, we wouldn't get the same GT as it simply wouldn't work.

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    • Um aren't you forgetting that Goku was stated to be as strong as a Super Saiyan in his base form in DBS? And GT Goku base Goku was as strong as a Super Saiyan 3.

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    • "Super Saiyan" and "Super Saiyan 3" are multipliers, not fixed levels of strength. The stronger their base, the stronger their Super Saiyan forms. Goku is supposed to be as strong as his Super Saiyan 3 from a certain point in time (Buu Saga).

      And even if we assume GT Goku's base is stronger (still debatable), UI and God forms are far far bigger jumps in power than Super Saiyan 4.

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    • It was never said that base DBS Goku is as strong as a Super Saiyan nor was it said that base GT Goku was as strong as a SSJ3 so no we aren't forgetting anything.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      after all GT Goku is stronger than DBS Goku in base form.

      I strongly disagree. Due to Saiyan beyond God, I belive that base Goku is far stronger than the one from GT.  While it's been stated that Goku from GT was stronger than Kid Buu, you have to remember that SSJ3 Goku in Buu saga was capable of fighting and surviving against this small evil creature for a while.  Now take into the consideration the fact that a bit stronger SSJ3 Goku (due to training time) did absolutely nothing to the Beerus and wasnt even capable of touching him, he was defeated with simple touch.  After absorbing godly ki and improving his base form at the same time (due to Saiyan Beyond God), Goku was able to give Beerus way more intense fight and was capable of actually hurting him a bit (showed when Beerus was dressed as the Monaka).

      Which proves that DB Super Goku after absorbing Godly Ki, became way way more powerful than what he was in his SSJ3 state, before absorbing Godly Ki.

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    • Goku said that he wasn't sure he needed to transform to fight Frieza in the Frieza saga in DBS.

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    • Hulk10 wrote:
      Goku said that he wasn't sure he needed to transform to fight Frieza in the Frieza saga in DBS.

      And? He knew that Frieza trained and grew stronger after Ressurection. He simply was shocked that Frieza got THAT strong, which was brought in the movie/series anyway. So your point is?

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    • @Meshifuari Arimota. To be fair. Saiyan Beyond God isn't the same as base. True base is when you turn off the God-ki. It's only SBG when they have a milky white aura.

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    • My point is that that implied that Goku's base form was about as strong as an untrained Super Saiyan.

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    • No it did not it implied that Goku was perfectly capable of kicking Frieza's ass without SSJ, which he did.

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    • That is another interpretation. But if he wasn't as strong as an untrained Super Saiyan, then he wouldn't have done so well against Frieza.

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    • A way more powerful Frieza than the one on Namek. You're ignoring this fact, @Hulk10

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    • You do realize that both Goku and Frieza got stronger after Namek right?

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    • Yes NegativeSymtom I realize that all too well..........

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    • Meshifuari Arimota wrote: A way more powerful Frieza than the one on Namek. You're ignoring this fact, @Hulk10

      More powerful yes, mainly in that he could utilize his full power without bulking up and he had a new form.

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    • Hulk10 wrote: Yes NegativeSymtom I realize that all too well..........

      I don't think you do. Goku was an untrained SSJ on Namek, he's mastered SSJ. Frieza has gotten much stronger since then, so if Base DBS Goku was as strong as an untrained SSJ then Base Form Frieza would have one shot killed him.

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    • His first form in FnF was way beyond the power of his 100% buffed form used during Namek saga. He showed it when he effortlessly destroyed Gohan .



      More powerful in everything:

      RAW strenght, ki, speed and overall abilities. His power shocked Piccolo who could destroy Namek 100% Frieza with one fart.

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      Hulk10 wrote: Yes NegativeSymtom I realize that all too well..........

      I don't think you do. Goku was an untrained SSJ on Namek, he's mastered SSJ. Frieza has gotten much stronger since then, so if Base DBS Goku was as strong as an untrained SSJ then Base Form Frieza would have one shot killed him.

      Well maybe I misspoke when I said untrained Super Saiyan, but I do know that they both got stronger, its obvious.

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    • Then why did you make that whole "Goku said that he wasn't sure he needed to transform to fight Frieza" point?

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    • Unless I say full power Super Saiyan.

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    • No

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    • Yeah no

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    • Well the fact remains he said that.

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    • And?

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    • Nothing.

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    • Neat

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    • Interesting

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    • Quite

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    • Meh

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