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  • goku was conserving energy, maybe just enough to hold an advantage over ssj3, this is shown in his fight with krillin, gohan and the trio de dangers

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    • It's a toss-up between that and Toei just trivializing Super Saiyan Blue so they can reveal Goku's kewl new transformation. 


      You know, after excessively hyping it up as the kewl new transformation some time ago. 

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    • I wish Goku was holding back, but sadly I don't think he was. Because one Broly tearing up Kakarot in the films isn't enough, they had to bring that over to the main continuity as well.

      For the record SSB means nothing at this point. It's became mundane and lost any element that made it special. They're going to be hyping Goku's new whatever-the-hell-it's-called transformation which every character is going to be dumbfounded over for a good while until the next transformation shows up.

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    • Battle of the Gods saga : Super Saiyan God is MUCH, MUCH STRONGER than anything we've seen up to this point, but Beerus is even stronger!

      Resurrection F saga : Super Saiyan Blue is even stronger than Super Saiyan God! (But Beerus is still stronger!)

      Universe 6 Saga : There are people in those universes as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue! Goku needs moar boosts! (But we'll try to make it seem like Beerus is still stronger!)

      Goku Black / Future Trunks saga : Super Saiyan Blue is... kind of okay! But look, here is the evil Goku you always wanted being stronger than the real Goku for no real reason! And he has a different form so you can think up fan transformations! By the way, Vegito and Fusion Zamasu absolutely have to be stronger than Beerus, but we'll leave it sort of vague!

      Universe Survival Saga : EVERYONE IS AS STRONG AS SUPER SAIYAN BLUE! Except Beerus, he's stronger!

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    • I miss Super Saiyan God. Not only is the coloration less dumb than Super Saiyan Blue, it also kept the "special Ultimate transformation" feel to it. Part of me still wants to believe that it is and SSB is a weaker inferior form.

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    • venithil and stryzzar, whis said blue takes up stamina after multiple uses, this is proven when vegeta fights hit, they have managed to take it down to a lesser extent, but it still does take stamina up, this is why they would hold back, also gohan in ultimate is stronger than buu ssj3 saga goku despite being weaker in base, this means gohan is as strong as restricted ssjb that i mentioned and was stomped when goku went double, now we see goku use this alot, truth is he just uses it for an advantage, goku wants to go max agains Jiren

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    • btw stryzzar are you saying ssjg is more powerful?

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    • No, I said I wish it was. Because it looks less dumb and SSB has become far too overused so it's not special any more.

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    • ok i get it, now i think they should have used it like they did in the manga, a more balanced form that uses less power, so goku can use it more like he did in the manga against hit, i still think that vegeta should have purely used blue though, that was a great scene when vegeta beat up goku black

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    • Yes, overall the manga did a lot better at handling the forms. If it weren't for the Future Trunks Saga, the Super manga is clearly superior to the anime.

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    • yeah the specific points that ruined it was when fused zamasu mutated and the universe survival arc which ruined the power scale and added so much unnecessary parts, they didn't even have to add that, since the anime is now before the manga. 

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    • I honestly prefer the Zamasu clones in the manga to Zamasu turning into the universe with... whatever the hell that was. The only low points is Goku Black and Zamasu are such pussies in the manga, while they were much more intimidating in the anime.

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    • i agree

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    • oh yeah, i always wondered this, why does goku black call goku and vegeta mortals? he ages as well, also they can become deitys as ssjg so that conflicts with that

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    • He's originally a God, was raised as a God, has a God's soul. Mortals here doesnt refer to immortality or God-ki. Compared to true Gods, Goku and Vegeta are still mortals, even the Gods of other universes say the same.

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    • ok, but if they use super saiyan god they have deity/godly status, that's another reason why they should have used it a bit more in the manga, to stop black from being a dick

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    • They have the power of a God, but that doesnt make them true Gods. Only if Goku or Vegeta accepts the offer to be a GoD do they get true God status.

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    • Of course she isnt gokus the main charecter, even if he lose he will come back and win like he alwase does (unless gohan does it first)

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    • In the first tournament, none of them were as strong as SSB which was apparently in the manga and anime.

      In this new tournamnet, few are as strong as SSB. Only three people goku has used it against so far (5 if you include toppo and jiren).

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    • Kale is a novice with an unmastered SSBerserk form. Goku is an expert and his SSGSS form is almost mastered. If Goku himself had the SSBerserk form it would be much stronger. The SSBerserk transformation itself is stronger than SSGSS. Goku himself is stronger than Kale.

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    • yeah because he took kale hits and he didnt take a scrateh

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    • If Kale had the same training and experience of Goku, is pretty sure that Kale was more powerful than Goku.

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    • to be honest i think goku with full stamina super sayian god is strong enough to beat kelfa

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    • MonzyMonz wrote: to be honest i think goku with full stamina super sayian god is strong enough to beat kelfa

      Thats hilarious

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    • NegativeSymptom wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote: to be honest i think goku with full stamina super sayian god is strong enough to beat kelfa

      Thats hilarius
      • hilarious*
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    • it was stated in the orignal japanese dub that goku was just using a little more power than ss2, also later we see tired ssg goku stronger than true legnedary super saiyan kale, who was in turn stronger than berserk kale. also, super saiyan kefla is stated to be around the top spirit bomb(by whis) which was so powerful goku thought it could take jiren down, someting which ssb kk*20 couldn't accomplish, so ssg goku beating kefla is impossible, even at full stamina

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    • all in all, berserk kale<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<ssb goku

      ssg goku<kefla

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      • hilarious*

      You must feel really proud of that one huh?

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    • Ssg gogeta27 wrote: all in all, berserk kale<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<ssb goku

      ssg goku<kefla

      Yes exactly

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    • Honestly OP, that was obvious from the get-go. When Kale plowed through the Kamehameha, not only was Goku not doing any of his signature 'struggling' sounds, but when Kale began her rampage, he didn't have a scratch on him

      ^By all standard DB conventions, that equals him holding back, and given his personality means he was testing Kale's power like he does with many opponents. And it was proven later when Kale, stronger than she was that first time, could ultimately only battle SSJG with effort (when overall, it's full power is somewhat weaker than SSJB's full power). If only more people could remember that SSJB can literally be any power level due to perfect energy control, from 1 to whatever insane number the full amount is

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    • Kale herself in the anime was a weak saiyan, it took her Super Saiyan (B-type) to bring her to a league where she could own 75% of everyone in the tournament except for people who were SSG level and above in terms of power. If Kale was the same strength as Goku in their base forms.. her SS B-type form would have made her at the very least on the level of Super Saiyan God and her True Super Saiyan B-type form would have put her on Super Saiyan Blue level of power. Base Kale is just a weakling in the anime.

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    • if her true legendary super saiyan is ssb level, how come it was able to fight on par with a non serious, not powered up tired ssg goku, and had immense trouble repelling a simple energy blast? true lss and berserker ss are strong, sure, but ssg is leagues ahead.

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    • You don't know how to read properly do you?

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    • oh sorry, my bad. i was reading in a hurry. still, even if their bases were the same, i doubt true lss kale could put up a good fight against the god transformation, because of their ridiculously high multipliers, which surpasses even logical fusion(notice I said logical, so don't bring up kefla, beacause she is powered by plot and thus her power is not logical)

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    • She was able to fight against God Goku on an almost even level, though neither of them were capable of inflicting damage to each other. If she was the same strength as Goku while in their base forms, then her true LSSJ form would be stronger than Goku's SSGod form, maybe not quite on Blue levels of power but close enough.

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    • it's stated in this wiki he was not serious or powered up, he was tired from fighting jiren, and later a simple enrgy blast from that ssg could barely be repelled by her. she would put up a good fight, but ssg is still stronger

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    • God Goku stomps Kale no question, even while fatigued. But Kafla is a different story

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    • true

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    • @QuakingStar Weak by comparison, sure, but not period imo. If Kale's base form was anywhere close to Caulifla's, confidence issues and fighting ability notwithstanding for the moment, then already she's stronger than any power anyone reached in DBZ

      ^And even if not close, that probably still holds true given the overall power gap Super's attained. I just wish people judged characters based on more than their power levels, and how they compare to the main cast (even for this series, it's not everything, as has been shown repeatedly)

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    • Goku had to have been holding back during the first fight with Kale, otherwise it'd make no sense Goku could handle both Kale and Caulifla. But even so, Beserker SS Kale's power is still really hard to place.

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    • I would say that Berserker Kale is around Full Power SSJ Goku to Supressed SSJ2 Goku, while Mastered Berserk/"True LSSJ" is SSJ2 Goku to Suppressed SSJ3 Goku.

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    • i'd put true lss slightly below super saiyan 3, since she could briefly keep up with ssg goku(even if fatigued, not serious) but i agree for berserker kale

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    • agreed.

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    • True LSSJ Kale is above SS3 Goku but under SSG Goku.

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    • It was weird seeing Ssj Blue Goku unable to Stop Berserker Kale's assualt on him. But at the same time he showed NO damage from her attacks at all. That doesn't make sense.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      It was weird seeing Ssj Blue Goku unable to Stop Berserker Kale's assualt on him. But at the same time he showed NO damage from her attacks at all. That doesn't make sense.

      I mean, he was holding back. Only explanation out there. But yeah, still, Kale as a Legendary Super Saiyan shouldn't have easily defeated Super Saiyan 2 Goku like that. It has been stated that the form is weaker than Super Saiyan 2 by the Trunks anime comics and Kale was slapped by fodder Methiop yet she somehow is stronger than ssj 2 Goku? What?! And no, Kale as a Super Saiyan 2 should've not been a super multiplier where it surpasses Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Just no. Why? Toei's writing is so s*** even a fanfiction writer does better than them.

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    • No the real truth about Broly's version of the lssj from is that the longer he stayed in it the more powerful he was becoming. It's the reason why he kept venting his power in his first movie as his body was struggling to maintain. It goes on without end.

      So theoriaticlly if he was able to stay in the form he would have eventually overtaken ssj3 at some point. If his body was able to handle the overwealming power. You have to wonder why it made him grow up to 10 feet in height. This ability of lssj form is the basis for why Broly had been given other forms over the years in the games to keep up with the current transformations. Like 4 and his own version of Ssj god.

      If Kale's followed the same formula she would have been able to eventually overpower Jiren. Unfortuantely that would have taken a lot longer then 48 minutes and if he allowed it.

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    • Kale isn't more powerful than Blue, she might be able to keep up with God, for a bit. but she would still lose. Now, when Kale manages to get to a higher level of True Legendary Super Saiyan, than she'll take Goku, until he gets back into Ultra Instinct.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      No the real truth about Broly's version of the lssj from is that the longer he stayed in it the more powerful he was becoming. It's the reason why he kept venting his power in his first movie as his body was struggling to maintain. It goes on without end.

      So theoriaticlly if he was able to stay in the form he would have eventually overtaken ssj3 at some point. If his body was able to handle the overwealming power. You have to wonder why it made him grow up to 10 feet in height. This ability of lssj form is the basis for why Broly had been given other forms over the years in the games to keep up with the current transformations. Like 4 and his own version of Ssj god.

      If Kale's followed the same formula she would have been able to eventually overpower Jiren. Unfortuantely that would have taken a lot longer then 48 minutes and if he allowed it.

      Yeah but his body could only handle a certain amount of power. More power he would either overload himself which would kill him at most or make himself completely exausted enough to fall unconcious at least. Which is why he had to release the energy in the first place. Yeah it made him 4 feet higher because of the overwhelming muscle and a body like that can only be really powerful for a short amount of time but can't really be just as powerful in the long run. The other advancement forms don't have any relevance to your argument, because while we don't know how he got his Super Saiyan 2, his Super Saiyan 3 was from his Saiyan Power, Super Saiyan 4 was from being transformed into a Golden Great Ape, and God is also unexplained. It just proves that Lssj is limited due to the user's body and needs advancements to gain more control and power from it.

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    • All his "Advancements" forms have the lssj form as the basis for their appearances suggesting it's ability is mixed in with these forms.

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    • The Trunks Anime comics do not Supercede or overpower the facts given from Daizenshuu. Therefor LSSJ form is not weaker than SS2 form, and it does indeed make the user stronger and stronger as long as they are transformed. ALso in Movie 10 Broly overcame the venting Problem, not to mention it is confirmed that SS Broly is stronger than FPSS Goku in Movie 10 yet Base Gohan(He is now an entire dimension above what he was at the Cell Games, and he ven mentions how much stronger he is in the movie itself) was almost tying SS Broly. Showing that Base M10 Gohan = FPSS Goku and is barely weaker than SS Broly. Gohan procedes to go Super Saiyan 2 which makes him 100x his base form, Broly realizes his SS Form is no match whatsoever so he goes LSSJ and although Gohan is barely faster, and manages to break loose from Broly and kick him in the face, Broly is beating the tar out of him. The LSSJ form is by FAR stronger than the SS2 form, Gohan in Base is about equal to Goku as a FPSS and stronger than Base Broly. Broly was clearly stated to be "strongest being in the universe" in M10 so that puts him above the Fat Buu who was fighting against SS3 Goku and enjoying it, and beating the shit out of Gotenks. LSSJ gives an equal or higher multiplier as SS3 and it looks like it gives a higher multiplier. Kale is using the same form.. so it makes sense that it puts her above SS2 and SS3 Goku, True LSSJ kale is above SS3 Goku for sure.

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    • There is no confirmation that Kale's Berserker works the same way as Broly's LSSJ. And even if it did, Goku's base is way way higher than Kale. So even if the individual LSSJ multiplier is higher than SSJ3 (still debatable), that doesn't mean Berserker Kale herself exceeds Universal Survival Saga SSJ3 Goku.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      There is no confirmation that Kale's Berserker works the same way as Broly's LSSJ. And even if it did, Goku's base is way way higher than Kale. So even if the individual LSSJ multiplier is higher than SSJ3 (still debatable), that doesn't mean Berserker Kale herself exceeds Universal Survival Saga SSJ3 Goku.

      Lssj and Berserker are different.

      A LSSJ appears every 100 years in universe 7 so there is no way that Berserker is the same as LSSJ plus you can take control of Berserker while it is impossible to control LSSJ.

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    • where the f did you get the 100yrs bs?

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Lssj and Berserker are different.

      A LSSJ appears every 100 years in universe 7 so there is no way that Berserker is the same as LSSJ plus you can take control of Berserker while it is impossible to control LSSJ.

      You got mixed up with Vegeta explaining the Super Saiyan legend where one hadn't appeared for 1000 years.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      where the f did you get the 100yrs bs?

      I got mixed up.

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    • That much is obvious.  Goku was definitely holding back against her otherwise he wouldn't be able to smacak her later with SSG.

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    • A FANDOM user
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