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  • Now people are excited and equally as curious about what this new story arc will bring, but I just want to give my 2 cents on who I think Goku Black is.

    Now Goku Black isn't a clone or some sort of copy, he's not even Goku being under mind control. Actually I think Goku Black actually is Goku. Now let me explain what that means. The timeline that Future Trunks is from technically would be considered the "original" timeline since him time traveling actually changed the way things were suppose to be. Now in Trunk's time it's implied that Goku actually uses instant transmission and kills Frieza and King Cold than soon after before the Androids come dies of the heart virus. Now because Goku is the one to kill Frieza and King Cold and because he dies from the heart virus thus eliminating all the experiences the Goku we all know and love had that would have a significant effect on his growth and development as a person. Now after he dies since Goku is still considered a hero he of course keeps his body and spends the rest of his time for the next several decades training and getting stronger and stronger. Eventually since no one in other world challenges Goku he becomes jaded and he desperate seeks of someone or something to push him. Goku eventually encounters some kind of Evil Demonic God(like Demigra for example since both him and Black Goku have the green potara and they make it a point to really emphasize the earrings in the promotional poster). After this God defeats Goku, Goku being the person he is immediately intrigued and desperately wants to train with him to eventually attempt to surprise him so he agrees allow if Goku agrees to sell his soul or do something for him for him. Goku of course questions this but eventually Goku not having a reason to protect anyone now that he's dead and and being doomed to not being challenged as a fighter is easily persuaded to agree; or Goku fights him, loses but the Evil God sees Goku's incredible potential and that leads to him than manipulating Goku to be his underling, so anyway, they train and eventually Goku learns God Ki and perhaps further abilities since he's trained with him consistently for years by this point. Eventually, the Evil God and Goku after Goku has reached a certain level of power break out the other world reek havok everywhere including Earth which leads to him almost killing Future Trunks, which prompts Trunks to go back in time again where our story arc begins.

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    • i think he's one of dr gero's creations. after all the mad scientist has been studying goku for over a decade. who knows what else he's created in that time span.

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    • Not a bad theory. Though that goes against what they repeatedly established that Goku is "incorruptible". There isn't a tiny speck of evil in him, as the Devil Mite Beam has shown.

      Though that is one explanation on how Goku came back from the dead.

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    • I feel that since The future trunks time line is all about time travel,  That someone traveled back in time, to the time Goku would have hit his head, And thus prevented Goku from turning to the light to begin with. I believe the whole time line was changed at this point,  there was no Gohan or Chi Chi, Just a ruthless Goku killing the earth,  And Why is his power so great?  I believe at one point Goku encountered berus and Whiss and Gokus power impressed Berus.  And he was granted these abilities,  Keep in mind Berus is only a good guy because of his fondness toward Goku, Berus simply doesn't care about things like good or evil.  

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Not a bad theory. Though that goes against what they repeatedly established that Goku is "incorruptible". There isn't a tiny speck of evil in him, as the Devil Mite Beam has shown.

      Though that is one explanation on how Goku came back from the dead.

      Technically, Goku does have some evil in his heart when he transforms into any of his Super Saiyan forms (not any of the God forms).

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    • That was because of a physiological change, the same reason why Oozarus mindlessly destroy. It's not the "evil" more the savage warrior instincts built into Saiyan DNA. And let's not forget, even as a Super Saiyan he spared Frieza's life.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: That was because of a physiological change, the same reason why Oozarus mindlessly destroy. It's not the "evil" more the savage warrior instincts built into Saiyan DNA. And let's not forget, even as a Super Saiyan he spared Frieza's life.

      Still, he blasted Frieza. As for the physiological change, have you seen him try to make a spirit bomb as a Super Saiyan?

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    • Look, I agree he isn't pure as a Super Saiyan. But that's not Goku's fault, it's like his appetite which is uncontrollable due to biological reasons. Goku is still as pure as he can possibly get.

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    • Black's not even a saiyan......... I think he's just a shape-shifter that chose to look like Goku.

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    • I never said he was.

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    • Even after hundreds of manga chapters, we still know very, very little of what lays in the so-called Makai / Demon Realm. Dabura's from there, supposedly Buu,  Janemba, and Hildegarn also have a connection.

      Now, we do know that Black Goku is likely not a Potara fusion (because he only has one earring), so that leaves us with :

      - Another Android

      - A being from the Demon Realm (That's what I'd bet on)

      - A clone (Possible, but incredibly boring)

      - A result of an alternative timeline (it's honestly not likely, since it would require undoing Goku being hit in the head as a child)

      - Goku from Trunks' timeline resurrecting himself, but getting corrupted in the process.(Also not likely).

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    • or how about. what if black goku true identy is goten.

      hear me out since future trunks is a grown up by the time of his introduction to the franchise. if goten existed in his timeline he would be a grown up as well. now i know that goten doesn't exist there because goku died of a heart virus.

      but what if he was brought into that timeline by an outside external force that is able to control time and bring creatures that from other timelines into a different one where they shouldn't exist and brainwash them to be evil. 

      we know one creature that can do this. but unfortunetly his appearences so far have been in only video games. but the earring could be a clue to his appearence coming into the anime as well.

      as far as i'm aware. he is the only being that has activately tried to destroy all of existance at once by blowing up the time nest.

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    • How about this. Black is a shape-shifter and the original Omniversal God of destruction. His power is on par with the Omni-King. He went on a rampage in the past and the Omni-King had to seal him using the power of the 12 universes (maybe 18?). Trunks and Cell messes with time real bad, creatin a form of loophole in the seal. Black escapes using that loophole and ends up entering Future Trunks world. Black went on rampage (Again). At one point he learnt about Goku, his reputation and most importantly, his appearance. He then thought that if the greatest hero's face is the face of evil, terrifiying multipliers will increase. The majority of the battle will most probably take place in Future Univers 7. About the Green Kaioshin. He doesn't look all that evil and might just be a new Kaioshin (I don't think AT even remembers he ever said "Makaioshin") Supposedly, a new kaioshinis born when one dies. 2 kaioshins died so 2 began to develop. Since Trunks' future is far ahead of ours, the Green guy we see is probably a fully developed Kaioshin.

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    • I don't think Black is a Multiverse buster. What he's done so far is kind of weak for someone of that tier. I'd put him at Whis' level at best, and probably someone Goku and Vegeta have a small chance of beating.

      Since you brought that up. How come West and North Kaioshin never got replaced? East appears to be the only one on the Sacred Kai World, until Old Kai joined him.

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    • Kaioshins and Kais develop from fruits. It's possible that it takes a a long time for a kaioshin fruit to develop into a kaioshin.

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    • Even 5 million years? Doesn't seem right to leave a quadrant of the universe unprotected for so long.

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    • Well it was just a fan theory. Don't bother if it is wrong. We could've come to a solution if we knew on which side he was.

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    • clues 

      1. he can change shape 

      2. he called trunks saiyan , it gives that he is not a saiyan

      3. trunks said he can sense my ki now it means he had no ability to do it before  it means he is not goku 

      4. his outfit and earring  looks like a kaioshin style 

      5 . although black is so strong  he just wants to kill trunks  he could do it easily destroying earth but he prefers that way 

      I hate these theories that people first called him bardock now they call him goten seriously , they really thought that Akira would come with such cheap ideas 

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    • "Black is Goten" theory, officially debunked. Thank God/Toriyama for that.

      Yep, all that points to Black having mystical, godly origins. He chose to look like Goku, but outside of that the similarities end. Doesn't even have Goku's powers.

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    • Aside from Kamehameha!

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    • hmph don't count on him remembering him that. this is the same guy that said that android 18 had purple hair.  also i think that tweet is fake. i don't remember akira writing in perfect english.

      another thing is i've been looking on twitter for that account. i can't find it only one like it in a differen't language and it doesn't have that tweet. find a link to the tweet. not the facebook post that is on that photo.

      btw goku's black offical name now is just 'black' so goten equels black still plausable.

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    • Kidgoku1 wrote:
      clues 

      1. he can change shape 

      2. he called trunks saiyan , it gives that he is not a saiyan

      3. trunks said he can sense my ki now it means he had no ability to do it before  it means he is not goku 

      4. his outfit and earring  looks like a kaioshin style 

      5 . although black is so strong  he just wants to kill trunks  he could do it easily destroying earth but he prefers that way 

      I hate these theories that people first called him bardock now they call him goten seriously , they really thought that Akira would come with such cheap ideas


      Best clues so far. Definitely cannot be Goku, changes shape so to freak Future Trunks out, couldn he not have taken up form of Vegeta? He'd give the impression of following No.5 point in regards to wanting just to kill Trunks. And cannot be a saiyan, so is of a Godly existence shape shifting, much like Majin Buu (only resemblance can refer to from the DBZ anime - haven't played the games to understand this Demigra God guy & powers/abilities/history). When Goku and Vegeta were in Super Buu fused as Vegito, they became unfused and retained their Portara earings on respective ears, possibily a clue for the presence of this Black character? Once fused with somebody, now unfused. Or given/stolen the earing to fuse with somebody but hasn't gotten a chance to do it (again, to my ignorance/lack of knowledge of the game, could be in relation to a deal done with Demigra?) which makes him moreorless originally pure evil but once fused could be less evil like when Kid Buu absorbed Grand Supreme Kai/Daikaioh. Just putting my input here, but cannot wait for more clues, its killing me not knowing this character's reason and purpose for existence!!!

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    • 私たちは、将来的に知ることができます
      
      Watashitachiha, shōrai-teki ni shiru koto ga dekimasu
      

      We will know in the future!

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    • You know that's an interesting point. What if after fusing via Potara, they unfused, but the unfused results are not the same as the original? i.e. something went wrong. What if all the evil went into one of the fusees?

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    • Fusing with potatoes?! Unused Charachters?! Fix the spellin! LOL!

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    • I think that Black most likely IS Future Goku; the Goku that dies to the Heart Virus.

      How is this possible? Didn't Future Goku pass away from natural causes, and thus was unable to be ressurected with the Dragon Balls?

      Yes, he did, but here's my thoughts:

      Much like the Goku that we all know, Future Goku ended up dead at one point, and instead of quietly passing into Heaven, Future Goku no doubt kept his body in the Other World to go on more adventures and continue to train - that's just who Goku is.

      Although, unlike present timeline Goku, I think that something befell Future Goku in the Other World that present timeline Goku never encountered - remember, because each Goku died at two different times, they no doubt had different experiences in the Other World.

      Specifically, I think that Goku ran afowl of some type of evil entity (possibly a Makaioshin), and ended up having his spirit posessed/corrupted by said entity. Following this, the now Black Goku was able to be ressurected/revive himself in some way outside of the Dragon Balls, possibly with said entity/Makaioshin's demonic magic.

      This could explain why Black referred to Future Trunks as, "Saiyan", because even though it's Goku's body, it's not really Goku speaking to him. The "Potara" Earring that Black is wearing could be how the entity is controlling Goku, like Pain's Chakra Recievers from Naruto, if anyone knows that I mean. of course, Black COULD also be looking for someone to fuse with too; that's a possibility.

      Also, let me address this: the Goten theory is just ridiculous; Goten wasn't even concieved until the 10-day gap just before the Cell Games, and Future Goku died long before then. If it DOES turn out to be evil Goten (I hope it doesn't), then Toriyama would need to adress that issue; possibly change the time that Future Goten may have been concieved in. (Though Future Gohan never made any reference towards him ever, saying that Trunks was out ONLY hope - not one of out only hopes, just THE hope.) So sorry Goten theory, but I don't buy it.

      If my theory isn't right, then I would place my money on Black being an alternate counterpart of Goku from Universe 6; possibly relating to the Earth that Beerus wished back for Champa. Who knows, maybe Universe 6's Earth was actually destroyed by Black Goku, and it was also where Black himself may have been killed. If so, then wishing back that Earth may have brought Black Goku back as well.

      And remember back in the Buu Arc; Goten mananged to tear a hole in time and space with his power, so if Black is anything as strong as current Goku/Vegeta, or even on Beerus'/Whis' level or beyond, then it's clear how he could be a threat; not only would he be strong enough to rival/surpass the gods, but can travel between different universes at will, potentially destroying absolutely all of existance.

      I think something like that would certainly justify involving the Gods of Destruction and the Omni King, wouldn't you?

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    • RoaIgnusCiel wrote:

      Also, let me address this: the Goten theory is just ridiculous; Goten wasn't even concieved until the 10-day gap just before the Cell Games, and Future Goku died long before then. If it DOES turn out to be evil Goten (I hope it doesn't), then Toriyama would need to adress that issue; possibly change the time that Future Goten may have been concieved in. (Though Future Gohan never made any reference towards him ever, saying that Trunks was out ONLY hope - not one of out only hopes, just THE hope.) So sorry Goten theory, but I don't buy it.

      if goten existed in future trunks timeline he would be a grown up as well. now i know that goten doesn't exist there because goku died of a heart virus.

      but what if he was brought into that timeline by an outside external force that is able to control time and bring creatures that are from other timelines into a different one where they shouldn't exist and brainwash them to be evil. 

      we know one creature that can do this. but unfortunetly his appearences so far have been in only video games. but the earring could be a clue to his appearence coming into the anime as well.

      as far as i'm aware. he is the only being that has activately tried to destroy all of existance at once by blowing up the time nest.

      Doing something like that in the anime will definitely attract the attention of beerus and the omni king.

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    • Don't mix alternate Universes and timelines!

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    • Mielgrb10 wrote:
      Don't mix alternate Universes and timelines!

      In this franchise, they are one and the same. Even team four star pointed it out. 

      If time travel worked like in back to the future. then krillin killing this cell should have caused the one who made the cell games to vanish from existance. 

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    • No they're not. In Dragon Ball, universes are like bigger galaxies, while timelines are alternate realities. Future Trunks' timeline also has a Universe 7 and 6.

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    • Mielgrb10 wrote:

      Fusing with potatoes?! Unused Charachters?! Fix the spellin! LOL!

      Sorry autocorrect on my phone messed it up.


      More points against the Goten theory. Goten does not look like Goku when he grows up, as end of Z and GT has shown. And why would they name him "Goku Black" in promotional material if he was Goten? Also Goten has never had the raw power Black has shown, he was at his peak in Buu Saga, before slacking his training, and was never strong enough to hit SSJ2 on his own, while Future Trunks was almost at SSJ2 level.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      No they're not. In Dragon Ball, universes are like bigger galaxies, while timelines are alternate realities. Future Trunks' timeline also has a Universe 7 and 6.

      alternate reality is another name for  another universe. and there's been officaly declared 12 of them. those ones are parrelell. time traveling is also multiverse travel cos trunks going back in time should have and this is what he expected as well. causing the reality of his time to instantly changed to peaceful world with the z fighters still alive.

      going back did not do that.  team four star agrees too. and they continue say this even with the knowledge of the 12 universes been offical announced. they've seen bog, rof and do reviews on every super episode as they are broadcasted.

      so alternate timelines that can be accessed equels alternate universe. it's the same thing in this franchise. 


      because in his debut. he was called black. not goku black.  i never said that black is our goten. like i said there's another universe where exists a goten and that one got grabbed by something and taken out of that reality and into future trunk's world by something with temporal and spatial powers. and also brainwashed, accelerated growth (temporal powers can let you do this) and to think he's not a saiyan  demigra fits this and further indicataion of it being him is the earring on his ear.  i have never heared of an evil kai. it wouldn't make sense the opposite of the kais which are protecters of the universe are the gods of destruction.

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    • Shadowprophet77
      Shadowprophet77 removed this reply because:
      Im new here and making a mess, I tried to edit a post and this happened,
      14:47, June 14, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • And to be honet when it is revealed that it is Goku,  I will be back to give a Big I told you so,  

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    • Shadowprophet77 wrote:
      People get so cought up in the story that they forget important things, firstly He is called Goku Black.  This was mentioned over a month ago. Why would he be called Goku black if the man was not Goku? this very article is titled Black Goku, I mean come on guys... Toriyama announced him as Goku Black, just because they call him black in the series means very little..  Berus and Whiss have counterparts in universe six,.  It is simply silly to think that no other beings would have counter parts.  Goku Black is Goku.  And you want to debate weather he is saiyan or not,  Goku proper didn't know what a saiyan was until he met his brother Raditz.. 

      this is a counterpart to Goku.  I'm  willing to stake money on this. 


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    • @0551E80Y, Alternate timelines and Alternate universes are NOT THE SAME. Simply follow the following points:-

      1. Future Trunk's world is a variant of Universe 7.

      2. His timeline also has the other 11 universes.

      3. alternate Universe are LIKE twins but not completely.

      4. Time travel does not create another universe. It creates another version of the said universe and does not count among the 12 universes.

      TeamFourStar is not a valid source. Stop using them as a reference. I hope you understand by now. If you still don't believe us, just say you don't. We don't want to lengthen this discussion on Universes and timelines so don't wage a war.

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    • Alternate timelines and Alternate universes ARE THE SAME in this franchise.  you follow these points.

      1. Future Trunk's world is universe 7 but with .

      2. His universe 7 also has the other 11 universes not arguing with that. unless he has more or less depending on how the omni king acted in this reality.

      3. alternate Universe are LIKE twins but not completely these are parrellel .

      4. Time travel does create another universe. It creates another version of the said universe and while it does not count among the 12 universes by whis beerus and the omni king. it's still it's own universe. otherwise krillen killing cell in the lab. should have caused the one that came in the time capsule to dissapear from existance because he was obliterated in his own past. trunks believed that the androids rampaiging in his time would dissapear if they were destroyed in the past. but that didn't happened.

      5. so there is actually more then 12 universes. you just need one of these 12 to exist to accesses the potentially unlimited ones that are still out there.

      TeamFourStar modified the episodes so they are easier to understand. so i'll use them if want. in the offical episodes and manga when trunks was discussing why things are so differen't  then his timeline but his timeline is not affected. he used goku. you tell me if this doesn't scream multiverse travel .  it did to team four star and it does to me. 

      the proof of this is written all over this wiki. but still it's not unoticed that it is a contradicty that was made later by the 12 universe statements. like the million other ones that are in this franchise.

      I got nothing else to do on this wiki.  so reply back. if you're too busy fine by me.

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    • Shadowprophet77 wrote:
      Shadowprophet77 wrote:
      People get so cought up in the story that they forget important things, firstly He is called Goku Black.  This was mentioned over a month ago. Why would he be called Goku black if the man was not Goku? this very article is titled Black Goku, I mean come on guys... Toriyama announced him as Goku Black, just because they call him black in the series means very little..  Berus and Whiss have counterparts in universe six,.  It is simply silly to think that no other beings would have counter parts.  Goku Black is Goku.  And you want to debate weather he is saiyan or not,  Goku proper didn't know what a saiyan was until he met his brother Raditz.. 

      this is a counterpart to Goku.  I'm  willing to stake money on this. 


      Maybe because goku's appearence is very iconic for this franchise. when tree of might was being released in japan in the movies all those years ago. and they released pictures of turles. people would have thought before the release of the film. that turles would be an evil goku as well. this is no different.

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    • Alternate universes and timelines are the same under dictionary elaborations. But since the series pointed them out differently, so please use the exact term used in the series. It creates a lot of confusions.

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    • Future Trunks timeline us NOT another universe. It's an alternate reality. Each reality has it's own 12 universes, but isn't a universe itself.

      The explabation that timelines and universes are same could have worked before BoG, but after Beerus explained universes are jyst really big masses of space that sit next to each other, and can be physically destroyed by Zen'O.

      TeamFourStar was making fun of how Dragon Ball changed the Multiverse concept, and once again their explanation fits before Beerus arrived. Post-BoG "Universe" no longer applies to "alternate reality created by time travel"

      Yeah the proof is written all over this wiki, and you choose to ignore it like you always do. Go on any Future Trunks related page and show me anywhere they refer to timeline as universe.

      It's not contradictory because they never defined what a universe is before. And even if they did, just treat BoG as retconning the old explanation and "timelines are not Universes" is the newcanon.

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    • Mielgrb10 wrote:
      Alternate universes and timelines are the same under dictionary elaborations. But since the series pointed them out differently, so please use the exact term used in the series. It creates a lot of confusions.

      yeah it's a contradiction like all the others like i said. it's the same thing. 

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    • What part of Dragon Ball redefined the concept of "universe", don't you understand? Future Trunks' timeline is not a universe. Beerus/Whis can't travel to the apocalyptic world that Future Trunks came from, like they do with Universe 6.

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    • 'Future Trunks timeline us NOT another universe. It's an alternate reality. Each reality has it's own 12 universes, but isn't a universe itself.' 

      reality is another word for universe. not multiverse. there's 13 relalities 

      'The explabation that timelines and universes are same could have worked before BoG, but after Beerus explained universes are jyst really big masses of space that sit next to each other, and can be physically destroyed by Zen'O.'

      because those are the ones they are aware of. for now. but trunks's universe can still be destroyed by zeno if he wants. once he get's there.

      'TeamFourStar was making fun of how Dragon Ball changed the Multiverse concept, and once again their explanation fits before Beerus arrived. Post-BoG "Universe" no longer applies to "alternate reality created by time travel"'

      if you check the date of the episodes the first one i linked was april 6 2014 that was well over a year after bog was first released in the movies in japan and the plot of the movie was written on this wiki. it came out on dvd later in september 2013. so they would have gotten their hands on it. and they still said time travel equels multiuniverse travel. 

      'Yeah the proof is written all over this wiki, and you choose to ignore it like you always do. Go on any Future Trunks related page and show me anywhere they refer to timeline as universe.'

      i sent you a link to a manga page where it directly screams it. but the existance of three cells on this wiki is good enough proof. try not to deny it like everything else. just because they don't say the actual word 'universe' doesn't mean that isn't what they are talking about. team four star recongized this. so do i.

      'It's not contradictory because they never defined what a universe is before. And even if they did, just treat BoG as retconning the old explanation and "timelines are not Universes" is the newcanon.'

      the only thing i'm treating bog as retconning is it super counterpart retconning yo son goku and his friends return. no canon officaly exist stryzzar you know this i've told you time and time again. don't use your headcanon to define how things are going.

      they did so check the manga pages. they just didn't explain in a way it was suppose to mean without it in one word. Instead of saying 'oh me going back in time here is actually crossing another universe' they went 'for some reason things are playing out differently then in my time there's 3 androids instead of 2' team four star simplfied it and said 'multiverse theory a bitch' (their words)

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    • No, it's not. In Dragon Ball: timeline =/= universe. It's a word they chose to define in their work of fiction. You can say other works of fiction use the terms interchangeably as many times as you want, but that doesn't change how Dragon Ball chose to do it.

      Trunks timeline isn't a universe, it's a whole other alternate multiverse. Only Future Zen'O can destroy that. Future Trunks' timeline doesn't have one of those spherical universe orbs they use to represent universes.

      You completely missed my point. It doesn't matter which came first, important thing is TFS chose to ignore the BoG explanation and decided to make universe and timeline the same thing.

      It's proof that there are three timelines, does not prove that timeline are the same as universes. Cell's timeline and Trunks' timeline are not Universe 2 and 4 or whatever. Cell's timeline has it's own Universe 6 and 7. You say I'm denying it? You keep ignoring over and over the blatantly clear explanations that Super gave on what a universe is: basically very large galaxies that sit in a multiverse.

      I don't care about canonicity. Stop bringing that up. But BoG is the more reliable one because it's more recent, i.e. matching their current decisions.

      No. They didn't say it, because Toriyama didn't make it that way. Just blame Toriyama for not doing enough time travel research and finding out "Multiverse" was used that way. But he has redefined Multiverse as a collection of Universes (irrelevant to each other) that sit and coexist together. Once again, TFS is a fanmade parody that makes fun of the series, and they pointed out Toriyama's usage of the term "Multiverse" when compared to other shows. But TFS is not a reliable source. If you don't believe me, ask them yourself if timelines and universes are same in the real Dragon Ball series, not their series.

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    • 0551E80Y you sir are a clown. Realities and universes are two separte things in real life and DB. TFS does not make DB, they are just fans like us, and their material shouldnt be your go to for a debate. Future trunks reality(timeline) is an alternate ending so to speak of universe 7, and is not its own universe, but more of alternate reality of universe 7.

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    • 'No, it's not. In Dragon Ball: timeline =/= universe. It's a word they chose to define in their work of fiction. You can say other works of fiction use the terms interchangeably as many times as you want, but that doesn't change how Dragon Ball chose to do it.'

      In Dragon Ball: timeline = universe  it still is the same thing. them saying that and then  showing .16 with 17 and 18 in one timeline and without in another is them showing it as universe. this was acknolwedge by trunks in the manga in the link's i sent

      'Trunks timeline isn't a universe, it's a whole other alternate multiverse. Only Future Zen'O can destroy that. Future Trunks' timeline doesn't have one of those spherical universe orbs they use to represent universes.'

      trunks's timeline is another universe 7 with it's own set of universes and only the universe 7 of his time can only be accessed by another universe 7 but still it's multiverse travel.

      'You completely missed my point. It doesn't matter which came first, important thing is TFS chose to ignore the BoG explanation and decided to make universe and timeline the same thing.'

      because the characters who will tell you there's 12 more haven't appeared yet. and it's not important to the plot of the saga they are at now. it just shows theres more then one method of multiverse travel. whis's way and trunks way are both correct.

      'It's proof that there are three timelines, does not prove that timeline are the same as universes.'

      it's proof that there are more universes. and that timelines and universes are the same thing.

      'Cell's timeline and Trunks' timeline are not Universe 2 and 4 or whatever. Cell's timeline has it's own Universe 6 and 7' 

      thats what i'm saying too which means there's more then 12 universes. more then 18 actually.

       You say I'm denying it? You keep ignoring over and over the blatantly clear explanations that Super gave on what a universe is: basically very large galaxies that sit in a multiverse.;

      yes you're denying it. because you won't acknowledge that it has contradicted what is said in z about timelines equel universe travel read the manga again. just like having kibito kai defused in super contradicts him rescuing goku from baby's Revenge Death Ball on earth with that body. 

      'I don't care about canonicity. Stop bringing that up. But BoG is the more reliable one because it's more recent, i.e. matching their current decisions.'

      i will keep bringing it up until you stop using that word. and look for anything canon with that word in it.  that was said by either toei of akira. otherwise anything that i said canon is only a fan interpertation and declard a 'head canon'

      'No. They didn't say it, because Toriyama didn't make it that way. Just blame Toriyama for not doing enough time travel research and finding out "Multiverse" was used that way.'

      easy enough just another contradiction.

      'But he has redefined Multiverse as a collection of Universes (irrelevant to each other) that sit and coexist together.'

      with future trunks multiuniverse traveling again from universe 7 to universe 7 in super to escape black. so basically he writes timetravel equels multiverse travel then adds 12 more universe that can be accesed without a time machine and then shows trunks multiverse traveling again to universe 7. 

      'Once again, TFS is a fanmade parody that makes fun of the series, and they pointed out Toriyama's usage of the term "Multiverse" when compared to other shows.'

      and what they did is using the exact same plot as the original series used. what they meant is all the extra gags they've added in for comical entertainment. like mr popo and ghost nappa.

      But TFS is not a reliable source. If you don't believe me, ask them yourself.

      sure i'll ask them if timetravel equels multiverse travel in dragonball and they'll go 'yes it obviously does that is what akira was saying in his work'

      if timelines and universes are same in the real Dragon Ball series, not their series.'

      so you agree with me then timetravel equels multiverse travel. trunks is going to do it again in the next episode of dragon ball super anyway.

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    • I give up, there's no reasoning with this guy. He ignores facts put in front of his face and continues using his own BS logic.

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    • Kidgoku1 wrote: clues 

      1. he can change shape 

      2. he called trunks saiyan , it gives that he is not a saiyan

      3. trunks said he can sense my ki now it means he had no ability to do it before  it means he is not goku 

      4. his outfit and earring  looks like a kaioshin style 

      5 . although black is so strong  he just wants to kill trunks  he could do it easily destroying earth but he prefers that way 

      I hate these theories that people first called him bardock now they call him goten seriously , they really thought that Akira would come with such cheap ideas 

      13432358 10153515823791746 534826580360517358 n

      Wait...AT KNOWS PERFECT ENGLISH!?

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    • Maybe someone translated for him.

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    • Who's left in these stupid theories? Goku Jr.?

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    • Hmm, how about Beat from Dragon Ball Heroes? No one has tried him yet.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I give up, there's no reasoning with this guy. He ignores facts put in front of his face and continues using his own BS logic.

      funny i was going to same thing about you. at least i got team four star on my side.

      dating is just like the android saga

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    • Well I'm sure TeamFourStar will be so appreciative you're treating their fanmade parody as an official source. Seriously, let them know via twitter, they'll be so happy to hear it.

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    • @055E80Y, Don't care if TFS are with you. It's just fan-stuff. If you wanna get supported, get it from Toriyama.

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    • i thought you give up you just can't resist the urge can you.

      i don't need to. just watch their work and no i never said that what they did was differen't then  to what akira said. what they did was they said the exact thing as did but simplified so it's no differen't then the offical stuff. the offical's were saying time travel equels multiverse travel.

      well you should care what they do isn' differen't to akira apart from those comical gags that aren't meant to be taken seriously like popo. toei acknowledges tfs. good for me.

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    • I gave up listing long points, because you don't even bother reading them, so I'm no longer wasting time typing up something that will be ignored.

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    • @055E80Y, Will you just stop?

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    • predictable

      no. not unless i want to and i don't want to. all of you wrote on here because you chose to. no one forced you to. especially me. and you can just as easily leave if you want to. the choice is yours. i don't feel any hardship from either descision made.

      i choose to defend my points. and when people try to counter my arguements i counter their arguements. 

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    • C'mon 0551, you honestly think it's Goten or do you just don't think it's a Evil Kai...?

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    • i don't think it's goten anymore. how could a kai be evil? it could be scary that black knows instant transmission or it's upgraded counterpart and killed a kai or all of them in the other world and he took an earing as a reward. 

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    • Just for the record, I didn't stop replying because I'm admitting defeat. I'm stopping because I don't feel like wasting my time beating a dead horse. Because you will always stubbornly hold onto whatever initial impression you had, no matter how much it defies common sense and contradicts all the evidence given.

      One more thing, ask Toriyama or TeamFourStar if Trunks' time machine can travel to Universe 6. If either of them say yes, then I'll apologize and admit you're right.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Just for the record, I didn't stop replying because I'm admitting defeat. I'm stopping because I don't feel like wasting my time beating a dead horse. Because you will always stubbornly hold onto whatever initial impression you had, no matter how much it defies common sense and contradicts all the evidence given.

      One more thing, ask Toriyama or TeamFourStar if Trunks' time machine can travel to Universe 6. If either of them say yes, then I'll apologize and admit you're right.

      i say the same thing about you. the thing with you stryzzar is whenever i write something in a comment or a fourm either here or another wiki the first user to reply to it is you. it seems to be impossible to not run into you. 

      you refuse to give up your claims and arguements and i refuse to give up mine which just leads to us headbutting each other with words eventually one of us will fall down.

      the majority of dragon ball defies common sense. hovercars and dinosaurs. houses that fit inside capsules. the earth is filled with furries and even rulled by one. death has no consequence. time travel is not time travel.

      trunks declared that nothing he will do in the past will change anything that happens in his future. which goes against the entire reason he time traveled in the first place he came to the concluison that he basically traveled to a different universe.

      one more thing

      'One more thing, ask Toriyama or TeamFourStar if Trunks' time machine can travel to Universe 6. If either of them say yes, then I'll apologize and admit you're right.'

      i already said trunks's timeline is another universe 7 with it's own set of universes and only the universe 7 of his time can only be accessed by another universe 7 with the time machine. but still it's multiverse travel.

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    • Only difference is my belief is what the majority accepts, but you keep challenging that over and over. I don't give up on what I firmly believe is right, it isn't about opinions it's about facts.

      So you're saying it's a universe in another universe. Okay, if that's what you want to believe. Though you ever considered they renamed Trunks' "universe", in order to make it less confusing with the Universe 6 and 7? Multiverse can't be used to refer to both "group of universe" and "group of timelines". It's either one or the other, not both.

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    • is the majority accepting the fact that beerus with god energy is the strongest  in universe 7 despite the same being said for vegito and when the two are met in hyperthoetical battles they always side with beerus 'because god ki is a new level strength not reached by ordernary mortels' and a vauge comment from goku that is never brought up again. the vauge answers is what satisifies the majority? is that what you are saying that sounds like herd mentailty and no one wants to dig in on that and bring in every factor from both sides except for me and there is a ton from vegito's 

      and the facts are that time travel does jack all to trunk's goal: getting rid of 17 and 18 from destroying his world by going back in time. i've said that what like 10 times now.

      time travel is suppose to work like in back to the future and doctor who. do something in the past= changing the future. 'that's time travel' what trunks did is not time travel. written by akria seen by tfs and me.

      a universe inside another universe. hmm. trunks universe can be confusing. i wrote i don't know what the true source of what caused these two unvierse 7 to be different.

      if you think about it from cell's pov. trunks already went back in time once to warn them about the androids and he found a weakness in them. he came back and deactiviated them then he was killed by cell then cell went back in time to a year before that message and another trunks believes that what caused the diversion. but from cell's pov time travel already happened once before he did it and from their pov him time traveling before trunk did is what caused the diversion. it doesn't make sense.

      group of universes then cos trunks. goku's world is reffered as the past. and trunk's is the future. 

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    • No, people say Beerus is stronger because it was supported in the show due to Goku saying "even fusion won't give me a chance". I know you're going to start bringing up he was talking about fusion time, and if he had half an hour he would win. So, I won't go into that. We've been there, and done that.

      Well you really need to read up on time travel theories. None of them are "proven", so all are equally credible. The alternate timeline theory states that every possible event occurs, and when you go back in time you create a new timeline with one of those possibilities. Dragon Ball's concept of universes isn't about time, it's about space. Universes are bigger galaxies, that can probably reached if you go to the edge of a universe. Timelines are different possibilities that occurred in each universe.

      It's just a name which Dragon Ball chose to define. Other shows use timelines and universe interchangeably, including TeamFourStar. But the real Dragon Ball went with a different approach and specifically refer to Universes as a collection of galaxies.

      I mean seriously. Don't you find it confusing when "Multiverse" refers to both "collection of universes" or "collection of timelines"? They decided to scrap one of the definitions to avoid the headache of always clarifying which type of multiverse they were referring to.
      If you were given the choice, wouldn't you give them 2 different names to avoid the confusion?

      if you think about it from cell's pov. trunks already went back in time once to warn them about the androids and he found a weakness in them. he came back and deactiviated them then he was killed by cell then cell went back in time to a year before that message and another trunks believes that what caused the diversion. but from cell's pov time travel already happened once before he did it and from their pov him time traveling before trunk did is what caused the diversion. it doesn't make sense.

      It's because he came from another timeline, where all the events already occurred. Other shows would refer to the other timeline as another universe, but not Dragon Ball. In Doctor Who there's only one "space-universe", so the term can be used to describe the timelines. Same goes for Marvel and DC, where the Universes are different realities/timelines. But for Universe 6 and 7, they're just extensions of space that are too big to be considered one universe.


      Yeah look, I'm sorry I can get aggressive in these debates. I'm trying to be more reasonable and calmly explaining.

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    • A different Timeline doesn't equate to the different Universe since time itself abhors a paradox. As such the universe is bound to reshape in order to fit it's current possibility. So, it's the SAME universe at a different time. 

      However, there's a reason why this doesn't happen and it's because of the Bulma's Time machine which actually creates parallel timelines. TIMELINES specifically. In one such timeline Cell killed Trunks. 

      This is a major motif in the video-game Dragon Ball : Xenoverse where it' explained that Bulma's machine has an internal malfunction which distorts a timeline a bit. It is solely thanks to the Bulma's machine that Future that Trunks went back to still exists. Under normal conditions of time-space continuum such a manifestation would be impossible to occur. Let me remind you that Future Trunks finds present-time Androids 17 and 18 far stronger than he remembers from the future time. 

      The Time Patrol tends to merge the timeliness or delete the ones which make no sense, however they left open the Future Trunks timeline since they perceived Bulma's actions as noble. 

      The episode 47 of Dragon Ball : Super portrayed a fatal paradox or, notably, two fatal paradoxes. 

      Future Trunks remembering the events from the past. Mai existing. This opens two very valid questions

      1. Did the makers actually think of the timeline-consequences and paradoxes prior to making this?

      2. Is the DB:S alternate future timeline the same like the one from DB:Z alternate future timeline?

      Possibly, both questions are true. It's evident that little to no detail had been given to the paradox events in the DB:Z and DB:S sagas due to either laziness or inability to grasp it's fatal flow. 

      And on the account of the 2nd question, it's still possible that both timelines from two different sagas, are in fact one the same which shouldn't be happening at all. Future Trunks should have never went to the future to begin with. He'd have to disappear and nobody should even remember him as anything more than a deja-vu of sorts or a dream. 

      This is why Bulma's machine is the key element and is super-important. Not only does it allow for multiple timelines to exist at the same time, but it also allows for the creation of infinite timelines given enough fuel! This is something that needs to be addressed with a lot of delicacy. 

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    • Demonic resurected Goku seems most likly.

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    • Here's a question for yall:

      What Happend to Babidi and Majin Buu in the future timeline?

      How is it that in the present timeline Majin Buu is released 10 years after future Trunks first comes to the present, but in the future timeline, when trunks goes back in time, is 18 years after cyborg Freaza is killed? 

      To put it simply, when future Trunks goes back in time, the comming of Buu is 8 years overdue.

      Futhermore what might this absence of Majin Buu have to do with the creation of dark Goku in the future timeline?

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    • Zlica wrote:

      A different Timeline doesn't equate to the different Universe since time itself abhors a paradox. As such the universe is bound to reshape in order to fit it's current possibility. So, it's the SAME universe at a different time. 

      However, there's a reason why this doesn't happen and it's because of the Bulma's Time machine which actually creates parallel timelines. TIMELINES specifically. In one such timeline Cell killed Trunks. 

      This is a major motif in the video-game Dragon Ball : Xenoverse where it' explained that Bulma's machine has an internal malfunction which distorts a timeline a bit. It is solely thanks to the Bulma's machine that Future that Trunks went back to still exists. Under normal conditions of time-space continuum such a manifestation would be impossible to occur. Let me remind you that Future Trunks finds present-time Androids 17 and 18 far stronger than he remembers from the future time. 

      The Time Patrol tends to merge the timeliness or delete the ones which make no sense, however they left open the Future Trunks timeline since they perceived Bulma's actions as noble. 

      The episode 47 of Dragon Ball : Super portrayed a fatal paradox or, notably, two fatal paradoxes. 

      Future Trunks remembering the events from the past. Mai existing. This opens two very valid questions

      1. Did the makers actually think of the timeline-consequences and paradoxes prior to making this?

      2. Is the DB:S alternate future timeline the same like the one from DB:Z alternate future timeline?

      Possibly, both questions are true. It's evident that little to no detail had been given to the paradox events in the DB:Z and DB:S sagas due to either laziness or inability to grasp it's fatal flow. 

      And on the account of the 2nd question, it's still possible that both timelines from two different sagas, are in fact one the same which shouldn't be happening at all. Future Trunks should have never went to the future to begin with. He'd have to disappear and nobody should even remember him as anything more than a deja-vu of sorts or a dream. 

      This is why Bulma's machine is the key element and is super-important. Not only does it allow for multiple timelines to exist at the same time, but it also allows for the creation of infinite timelines given enough fuel! This is something that needs to be addressed with a lot of delicacy. 

      Let me try to clarify that a little bit.

      The way time-travel works in dragon ball, whenever a time machine is used, it creates a paralel univervse which splits off from the original universe at the point in time into which the time machine enters. Hence, a time paradox is imposible. This is conveint for a scater-brained author like Toriyama.

      In DBZ, future trunks travels from one paralel universe in which the cyborgs have killed everyone, to the paralel universe in which Trunks kills cyborg Freaza. This creates the two timelines in DBZ that we see the most of: the future timeline from which trunks travels, and the present timeline in which he tells Goku and the others about the androids. However there are several more timelines which have to exist in order to conform with the logic of DBZ time-travel.

       Right after killing Freaza, (correct me if I am wrong about this) he travels to three years later to help the Z-warriors with the androids. This would create a paralel universe in which he comes to help, and one where he doesn't. The one where he doesn't probably ends up with all the Z warriors beating the androids with the help of the hyperbolic time chamber. While this timeline is never mentioned by any cannon source, keeping to the rules of DBZ timetravel would lead to the conclusion that this timeline does indead exist.

      Now here is where things get complicated, in the timeline where future Trunks comes to help, they defeat the androids and Trunks returns to the future. This creates a timeline where trunks comes back from the past, and one where Trunks doesn't (kind of a sad thought). In the timeline where Trunks doesn't come back, the androids are still alive, and so is Cell(have fun figureing out what happens there). In the timeline where Trunks DOES come back to the future, he defeats the androids, and is about to go back to the past to tell the others about his exploits when he is killed by Cell. This is the timeline from which Cell travels from.

      This creates only one unique timeline, the timeline in which the Cell saga orcurs. This is because timeline where Trunks and the rest kill the androids is not affected because it is now a parelel universe to the one in the Cell saga . Because the coming of Cell keeps Trunks from returning to the future after defeating the androids, when he does go back to the future he travels to the timeline in which he doesn't go back to the future after beating the androids (the sad one I mentioned above).

      This creates a universe paralel to the one where Trunks never comes back to the future at all. This timeline is the one where we see trunks kill the androids and Cell, and is the timeline we see in DBS.

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    • Gitargy wrote:

      What Happend to Babidi and Majin Buu in the future timeline?

      Buu probably never hatched from the ball, because I doubt that they gathered enough energy for the ball to hatch. This fact becomes stronger just because of the fact that Future Trunks probably didn't train since the Cell's kill in his timeline. If he really didn't, then Buu definitely would have killed F. Trunks and destroyed Earth. But since we are not really sure whether he trained or not, we'll have to wait and see what happens when F. Trunks meets Fat Buu. Well, at least I am hoping to see a scene like this.

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    • ThisUserLikesOreo wrote:

      Gitargy wrote:

      What Happend to Babidi and Majin Buu in the future timeline?

      Buu probably never hatched from the ball, because I doubt that they gathered enough energy for the ball to hatch. This fact becomes stronger just because of the fact that Future Trunks probably didn't train since the Cell's kill in his timeline. If he really didn't, then Buu definitely would have killed F. Trunks and destroyed Earth. But since we are not really sure whether he trained or not, we'll have to wait and see what happens when F. Trunks meets Fat Buu. Well, at least I am hoping to see a scene like this.

      I'm pretty sure he did train. The dude can stand up to Black, he's just weaker than Black.

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    • Or if Buu was released, he wouldn't be anywhere near as strong. No Goku and Majin Vegeta to screw around and let him charge up to full strength. I have faith Future Trunks could dispose of the weakened Fat Buu, especially if he had been training and gained SSJ2 or even SSJ3 like he did in Victory Road.

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    • Gitargy wrote: The way time-travel works in dragon ball, whenever a time machine is used, it creates a paralel univervse which splits off from the original universe at the point in time into which the time machine enters. Hence, a time paradox is imposible. This is conveint for a scater-brained author like Toriyama.

      It creates the parallel timeline of the same universe, not parallel universe. A timeline branch, if you will. If the time paradox is impossible, why was Trunks afraid that revealing himself to the people will influence the Future? Makes no sense to me what you're saying and what I've witnessed in the series, unless it's plot induced stupidity. Trunks states that he didn't need to reveal his identity if Goku had Instant Transmission.

      In DBZ, future trunks travels from one paralel universe in which the cyborgs have killed everyone, to the paralel universe in which Trunks kills cyborg Freaza. This creates the two timelines in DBZ that we see the most of: the future timeline from which trunks travels, and the present timeline in which he tells Goku and the others about the androids. However there are several more timelines which have to exist in order to conform with the logic of DBZ time-travel.

      I will re-watch the entire DBZ Future Trunks saga (Android/Cell) in order to see the facts. So far, the First Future Trunks who came to the Earth and who defeated Mecha Frieza and then disappeared into the thin air is not really stating where he got all his information from, aside from Dr. Brief's clock device. That aside, we don't really know what timeline he came from since we never saw his arrival to Earth in the DBZ. I found it curious that the Time Machine only has one seat, yet Bulma, Mai and Trunks all wanted to tag along in it. Curious.



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    • why was Trunks afraid that revealing himself to the people will influence the Future?

      Because at that point Trunks didn't know it was alternate timeline theory. Or maybe Toriyama hadn't decided it at that point. Alternate timelines didn't get revealed until the Cell Saga.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      why was Trunks afraid that revealing himself to the people will influence the Future?

      Because at that point Trunks didn't know it was alternate timeline theory. Or maybe Toriyama hadn't decided it at that point. Alternate timelines didn't get revealed until the Cell Saga.

      That's more or less what I also think, but I'm not completely sure. I know that Toriyama stated that he didn't really pay much attention to the details, but these seem kind of big to be left out in the open just like that. 

      Not that I'm complaining, but perhaps we're not seeing things as clearly as we think that we do. 

      I think it is safe to state how it all dwells upon the Character introduction and tries to inject some of that mysterious Importance. 

      I also think that you're concluding a bit too fast since Future Trunks said that in his timeline there're no dragonballs, but if he knows that his future wouldnt change, then there was no real time-paradox to be afraid of in the first place, no? 

      On another point, there's no point for him to even go in the past and try to change anything, if that part doesn't change as well, unless the mission itself is purely altruistic. 

      Or, let me present it this way - If going to the past to prevent Goku from dying can save the world (and Piccolo, thus Dragon Balls), why the same doesn't apply to what he thinks about saying who he really is? Out of courtesy towards his parents? That's likely, but I don't know... Really not sure about that. 

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    • Well it's quite possible Toriyama originally considered traditional time travel theory (change something in past, future changes). He didn't initially plan on Cell and had the Androids as the main villains, so he might have put in the alternate timelines in order to allow Cell to exist in the first place. Since if it was traditional time travel, defeating Cell in the present would mean he could never come back in the first place, and yadda-yadda timey-wimey time paradox.

      I actually think it's possible Trunks didn't know it was alternate timelines until he went back to the Future the first time. Only then he saw time didn't change, and he was merely trying to improve his future by helping the past, but not correcting it entirely.

      Although the manga seems to imply Future Trunks and Future Bulma always knew, as when the Z-fighters asked him why he came back, he explained it was to be given the chance of watching Goku fight the androids and discover a way to defeat them. He also stated that his mother said the androids had done so much damage, that there deserved to be a timeline where humanity survived. But that might have been after he had gone back and found out the future didn't change.

      Or, let me present it this way - If going to the past to prevent Goku from dying can save the world (and Piccolo, thus Dragon Balls), why the same doesn't apply to what he thinks about saying who he really is? Out of courtesy towards his parents? That's likely, but I don't know... Really not sure about that.

      Umm you've gotten me a little confused what you're asking, I'll try and answer with the best of my understanding. I think that's once again before Trunks found out the future won't change, as he did say he was worried that Bulma and Vegeta finding out would cause him to cease to exist.

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    • Discussion on time travel = Getting sucked into a Black Hole

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    • but in the anime black goku said that "its your last day saiyan" " why would he say that if he is a saiyan


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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Umm you've gotten me a little confused what you're asking, I'll try and answer with the best of my understanding. I think that's once again before Trunks found out the future won't change, as he did say he was worried that Bulma and Vegeta finding out would cause him to cease to exist.

      As in - the entire act of Trunks towards his parents was not to hurt or derange their already messed-up relationship (at the time).

      I'd like to think that future does get changed, but I've yet to see it happening the way it should.

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    • Well maybe that's one reason he did it. But I distinctly remember him telling Goku not to say anything as it might stop him from being born. Piccolo also specifically left out the part about Trunks in his explanation for that reason.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Well maybe that's one reason he did it. But I distinctly remember him telling Goku not to say anything as it might stop him from being born. Piccolo also specifically left out the part about Trunks in his explanation for that reason.

      Yes, exacly, that is what's bothering me. I watched DB a long, long time ago, so I have to rewatch just in case, especially now given the whole Future Trunks saga. Other than young Mai, I don't see anything else changed. 

      Certain things are amiss. 

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    • Nothing was supposed to change.

      Mai could have been young for different reasons. Future Bulma is younger than she's supposed to be as well. Or maybe GT Mai was just too old.

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    • 0551E80Y Blackenfist on youtube has a video on youtube discussing how timelines and universes are NOT the same thing, just thought you would want to hear some food for thought from somebody who doesnt make fun of the series like TFS.

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    • just to make it easier for you 0551E80Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zVVpyXXSag

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    • You just made the worst step of your DB life by trying to reason with 551E80Y, Chewbung. He won't believe a single word you said and post a long explanation on why timelines and universes are the same (Which doesn't really explain anything and makes you want to take a nap) and also try to proove why TFS parody is valid source (Which it obviously is not) by saying that Blackenfist is just another fan (TFS is also fan-work, but he doesn't think so and says Toei approves it.) Mark my words, he's gonna bite at me next.

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    • Link to more timeline explanations:

      Geekdom101:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtzQsrdsIM

      Qaaman's land:https://youtu.be/lh58fPJtfR4

      The former is a quick explanation and the latter is a 40 minute long explanation on timelines and how they work.

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    • he can bark all he wants. just saw the video blackenfist posted a few hours ago and just thought maybe he would understand that better since it logically debunks his argument. if he wants to use a fan parody over a serious logical fan more power to him. but also wanted everyone else to see the video (as it was posted a few hours ago) after the discussion the other day.

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    • i've already explain time travel is multiverse travel. reality is another word for universe. ok let me go with somthing. if in our 'timeline' there is a me who goes argues that that time travel is multiverse travel. then there is another 'timeline' where i don't. does that sound right to you. 

      2 parrellel timelines hmm i wonder what that is really called

      WITH MANGA LINKS. look again. does that look like tfs to you?

      and they said the exact same thing on their 'parody' episodes. with it all meaning multiverse travel. it's not a team four star source it's a akira toriyama source.

      why do people keep ignoring the fact that trunk's was expecting time travel to work like in back to the future? 

      they think i'm stubborn huh. well whatever they can think what they want. i don't care.  i posted the truth people refused to listen. it's happen before in history. how people talked to me is exactly how people talked Galileo Galilei , to Albert Einstein and to the scientists that are saying climate change is happening. this is how it always starts.

      so keep ignoring. i never really expected to agree with me anyway. always to fight. because i think differently then everyone else. 

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    • WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THE SAME THING. What we want to say to you is to stop treating the term "timeline" and "universe" as the same. By "timeline", we mean the four timelines in Universe 7 introduced in DBZ. And by "universe" we mean the 12 universes introduced in DBS. Accepted that time travel is also a form of multiverse travel. But for the sake of simplicity, we prefer not to treat them as the same. We never told you were wrong, we just told you to not treat the terms as the same as it creates a lot of confusion.

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    • i've always wanted to use this .

      THEN YOU GOT YOUR WISH. however if i get someone saying i'm wrong again. i'm coming back on. 

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    • Thank goodness.......

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      i've always wanted to use this .

      THEN YOU GOT YOUR WISH. however if i get someone saying i'm wrong again. i'm coming back on. 

      You're wrong. On two accounts.

      First, It's extremely easy to disregard what you're stating, though. No offense, but you're trying to invent the hot water on this topic of the relative theory and time-traveling possibilities. 

      Not only are you wrong on the topic of the way multiverses work in relation to time-travel, but you're also making a mistake by mixing the different universes, with their own timelines and progresses (ergo : concept of the universe that's not bound y the laws and/or physics of another potential universe) throuth the course of their conjoint existence. The way I see it - you have a problem with accepting that multiverse s a broad term which may apply to different things and this does not include the time-travel since it's an inbound Universe, one of it's own. This is why inmany media, and in the general theory of time-traveling, there's alway the "universe crumbles unto itself" possibility, which is actually quite plausible if you think about it. 

      Now, each universe in a multiverse would function and operate at different level of physics, meaning that each universe would have their own separate way of how time works,due to the differences in terms of gravity and whatnot. As such, you're wrong to assume that by traveling in the future or in the past you're actually traveling into another universe. You're just traveling into the same universe with a different time period in mind and it's exacly how it sounds meaning that you're changing YOUR perception of reality and time to fit the new surroundings and environment. Due to the way Time itself works, it's impossible to have each moment spreading into the infinite possibilities since all events are both predestined to work in a fatalistic and concrete ways. This is why you're never returning to the alternate universe, but in the alternate timeline of the same universe. It's as easy as that. 

      Alternate timeline is NOT alternate universe. 

      Let me put it this way - you have an infinite number of papers, each with a different scene or a moment frozen in time. However, when you slide them in fast motion, you're getting the life motion itself. However, such motion does not receive another set of papers that spread to another set of papers which spread to another set of papers. No, you can only slide the papers at one specific point, and this is why gravity also affects the perception of time itself. The Universe and nature itself can't slide all those "possible" moments altogether, like one paper shows you touch your right ear and then another paper splits from the previous one where you touch left ear - it doesn't work that way and it will always find the way to least resistance to come and make you to touch your right ear no matter what because you can only exist at a one moment in one time and one particular place. 

      What you're arguing are practically SEMANTICS because you want to call each paper "the universe" despite the fact that those are just the moments from the same universe itself. Another universe would slide the papers faster. Yet another universe would not even use the papers, they'd use the CDs, yet another universe would use the carpets etc but it would all be similar, but totally different at the same time. 

      What you're saying is "This anime uses the red potato and calls it blue, but in reality we call it red" What others are saying "We know that reality calls it red, we're not morons, however the anime states that it's blue". What I'm stating "Actually, the color itself can be seen in many ways"

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    • Sounds like you're talking about time travel and multiverses in general media not just dragon ball. going to ignore you.  

      playing semantics. funny. you know i said  i don't care what other people think. the evidence to me is there is trunks in a universe that has a earth that was ruined by the androids and now ruined by a goku shaped enity.

      he tried to escape it by time traveling back in time. which should have taken him back to a time where it would be years before the attack but still it would happen the same way. but if it was stopped altogether then. the killing of the z fighters would have never happened they would be alive. no destroyed buildings. there would be more people. in trunk's time.

      but that never happened instead it didn't do jack all. to his world and the world he jumped in will play out differently it doesn't scream alternate time line it screams multiverse travel. tfs saw this in akira's work you saying they are wrong too?.

      i was asked to stop arguing because i convinced people i was right and just wanted to end this discussion. and you went ahead and start it up again. you even used my last post rather then the one before it. which just says you're arguing for the sake of arguement not the facts like i have it may seem i was arguing for the sake of arguement but i'm not. if i built up a reputation  that makes me look like a monster that was to be desperately slain to bring peace back. then so be it.

      but know no matter what you say. you will NEVER convince me to change my stance. the truth is no one really cares what is said on forums. some people don't care what it is even said  on the internet in general (Believe me i asked people in the real world about this topic and their repsonse was "it's the interenet i don't care stuff like this happens) so why don't we all just leave this topic and don't come back to it. no back jabs.

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    • @Zlica, I really didn't understand a thing you said, but it's too complicated for a series like DB. 

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    • I leave...

      I come back, mofos done went from 0 to 100 real quick no joker holds.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      you will NEVER convince me to change my stance. 

      That wasn't my idea in the first place. I just wanted to share my two cents. You're welcome to sit down, grab a bit of coffee or tea and reread it again if you please. 

      My idea is constructive criticism, to a point. Of course, since you seem to be detesting the mere idea that you're not correct I will leave it to rest. Mind you, I'm a new user here and I'm not part of any previous discussions you and others endured in the past couple of days or to that effect.

      Cheers.

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    • yeah sure.  cheers

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    • Well aren't we all getting along~

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    • Peace and love, my dudes. Peace and love.

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    • My theory:

      -He's actually FGoten who not seeing his father and seeing his brother killed goes bananas

      -He's FGinyu who switched bodies with FGoku (who returned for a day)

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    • Mine. He's justin chatwin goku.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      Mine. He's justin chatwin goku.

      Hahahaha ROTFLCopter

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    • During the last sequence of the trailer for the episode 49, Goku as a narrator states "GOKU BLACK" and you may hear it as that. 

      There's a very big chance that this is not really Goku of sorts, but Goku interprets him as such.

      I'm sure that the real name of the "GOKU BLACK" will be revealed during the next three episodes, max.

      Episode 48 also showed GOKU BLACK to be a bit bulkier than before which contradicts what we've seen in the episode 47. GOKU BLACK is a muscular character and what's clear is that

      a) He really, really hates Saiyans b) He despises humans

      The theory of GOKU BLACK being Goten is sort of dead since he hates humans.

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    • I just watched Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans and thought about one thing: what if Black is a survivor Tuffle? I mean, he seems to hate Saiyans and there's a good reason why. But I don't really know why he would look like Goku though. Besides that, we have that OVA and even GT has a saga about Tuffles, so I doubt that this would be true.

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    • I think it's been established a while that Goku isn't Black.

      He doesn't seem to specifically hate Saiyans and want revenge on them, he just seems to hate life in general.

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    • yes it is right  he doesnt seem to especially hate saiyans but hate lower realism humans saiyans living ones , he is pure evil he has same attitude with piccolo , he just wants  people to feel fear , 

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    • He's basically an antichrist, the embodiment of evil who wants nothing but to end all life in existence.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: He's basically an antichrist, the embodiment of evil who wants nothing but to end all life in existence.

      Isn't it a BIT to early to tell...?

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    • Well thats the vibe I'm getting, with their heavy emphasis on him being "dark and evil".

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Well thats the vibe I'm getting, with their heavy emphasis on him being "dark and evil".

      WEll lets pray he isn't just evil for evil's sake and has reasons.

      Frieza was a b@stard

      Cell was a smug gentleman

      Buu was mental.

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    • Maybe he's like Amara/Darkness from Supernatural, who despises creation in general and just wants to end all of existence.

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    • I think Black Goku could actually be somebody else who is using Goku's form and shape. Whoever it is probably knows about Goku and the techniques he often uses. It could probably be an enemy who wants revenge but doesn't want to make himself known which is why he takes Goku's form and shape. You may correct me if i'm wrong.

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    • Plot Twist... It's Ginyu

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    • Doglover456 wrote:

      I think Black Goku could actually be somebody else who is using Goku's form and shape. Whoever it is probably knows about Goku and the techniques he often uses. It could probably be an enemy who wants revenge but doesn't want to make himself known which is why he takes Goku's form and shape. You may correct me if i'm wrong.

      That's what I think.

      It seems very unlikely it's merely Goku turned evil. Honestly Black is nothing like Goku aside from appearance and the dark Kamehameha. Otherwise he's a polar opposite mirror to Goku.

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    • Goku Black = No Saiyan, i.e. Not goku. some of his quotes:

      "Finally, today is the day you breathe your last breath, saiyan."

      "You don't stop resisting even though you know you can't win. You Saiyans are really interesting!"

      "Such a miserable end for a proud warrior race. This is the end, Trunks!"

      "So you are Son Goku."

      Extra quote:

      "Death is a blessing for foolish human beings."

      I just saw DBS ep49. It says that Black appeared a year before and calls himself Son Goku and that he will destroy mankind for justice. It was also said that he destroyed many other planets and races before. Plus he unintentionally travelled to where Trunks is, courtesy of his mysterious "Ring of Time."

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    • Mhm. His constant derogatory addressing of Trunks as a Saiyan and his lack of knowledge of the Saiyan race in general is pretty clear evidence he's not a Saiyan/Goku himself.

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    • I do have another theory. We know that Goku was originally sent to earth as an infant to destroy it when he came of age. However he had an accident which altered his memory.That was what caused him to become kind and pure hearted. But there could be a universe where it didn't happen. Goku doesn't get the accident. When he becomes an adult, he makes plans to destroy the earth. He begins to do so, killing millions of people in the process. My guess is that somehow Future Trunks defeats him and stops him from causing any more damage. After Future Trunks defeats him, Black Goku begins to train for many years hoping that he will become stronger and get revenge on Future Trunks for spoiling his plans to take over the earth. After that he eventually tracks down Future Trunks to the present timeline. So Black Goku could be Goku from a different timeline.  

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    • He calls himself "Son Goku," not "Kakkarot." Goku got that name all because he hit his head. And how can Future Trunks exist where Goku is evil? And alternate timelines are not created if there is no time travel interference( Unless some other creep time travels).

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    • The Black is Kakarot theory has been done before. It cannot be true.

      If Kakarot never hit his head, he wouldn't have gotten that strong (no training from Master Roshi, Korin, Kami, King Kai .etc) He would probably have been defeated and killed by Earth's martial artists before he even reached the age of 12.

      Not to mention if it wasn't for Goku (the pure hearted one), Vegeta would have never come to Earth, would not have joined the Z-fighters, would not have made love to Bulma, and Trunks wouldn't even be born.

      If Goku hadn't hit his head, the Dragon Ball timeline would be a very different place. Many heroes would still be villains (without Goku befriending them), and Earth would have been destroyed long ago.

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    • Ok ignore my bad grammar and spelling in this as I am tired and typing fast but, 

      1.Since goku is training under beerus and whis wants to train him to become the next god of destruction, atleast implies so jokingly, what if goku surpasses beerus became the next god of destruction and got twisted by the power or got a personality change or something and is trying to destroy earth and trunks for breaking the time travel law and because he has to destroy planets. Maybe its the next form like ssj blue but ssj black and the user loses his mind/ becomes god of destruction and has a personality wipe to carry out the task

      2. It's a remake of baby from db gt, just like pan comes back, maybe black is goku being controlled by a super remake of baby, considering that baby hated saiyans and could control bodies, maybe he's controlling goku. 

      Opinions/ Better theories?

      Ps. Haven't been on this site for like 3-4 years lolz 

       KOD  Leave Me A Message  Contribs      13:34, June 26, 2016 (UT

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    • Or maybe its a yin-yang effect, goku being pure, black being evil, that's what the earring could represent, a evil half.

      Maybe it's goku's half from a different universe, but a evil half. 

       KOD  Leave Me A Message  Contribs      13:53, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

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    • my current theory is there is a kai trying to fix time and is using a avatar of goku who was the reason the timeline started changing, Black wants to destroy trunks to changed the past originally, if he accomplished that goal, he would of gone back to the android saga and stop goku from existing... So goku Black is actually a hero from the universe but everyone thinks he is evil.

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    • No "hero" would reduce earth's population to the brink of extinction for whatever reason possible.

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    • However bad a particular future could be, it couldn't possibly be worse than what Black has done. Complete destruction of life on countless planets.

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    • 13523920 972221442891323 311472378 o
      I'm not familiar with this game but at about 0:57 black has an ability called God of destruction wrath, could this support my theory?
      https://youtu.be/u4pcSMQHKXs
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    • It's a Xenoverse mod. Someone just took Beerus' template, and put Goku Black's skin over it. Which is why he still has Beerus' abilities.


      As of the moment, there is no game that features Black as a character, aside from a Dragon Ball Heroes trailer.

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    • I still think Black is some sort of reaction to time change (ex. Buu getting destroyed before being resurrected, Goku being alive in another timeline, etc.), or simply a creature for Makai that happens to look like Goku (or an android creature from that demon dimension, kind of like Mira.) 

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    • So essentially a less stupid version of the Shadow Dragons. Consequence of using some desperate forbidden measure to change the world. That might explain why Black shows up around Trunks' time, since he is the biggest culprit of time travel.

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    • i didnt watch any Dragon Ball Super yet (im waiting on the dub) but after reading the question i think he could be an evil side of Goku in another Timeline.

      Now, we all kknow that Goku is the definition of a pure human being since his life has been devoted to helpig others and whatnot but what if Black Goku is just the same as Normal Goku but has done only evil actions during his life and with Trunks fuckin up the Timelines with his time travel Black Goku's timeline and Normal Goku's timeline got mixed up thus Black Goku appearing in the normal world of DB that we all know....

      Could it work this is my idea on the matter, please dont spoil and tell me if this seems logic 

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    • Please don't use profanity. The f-word is not allowed on this wiki.


      Anyway, there is strong evidence against him being a different version of Goku.

      Black has made it clear that he is not a Saiyan due to how he keeps derogatorily referring to the species, and how he seems to still be learning about it.

      And when he actually meets Goku he goes "so you are Son Goku." implying he and Goku are not the same person.

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    • What if Black Goku was Demigra, but separated from the Potara fusion, and the other bearer was Zamasu, the new Supreme Kai?

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    • You mean Demigra = Zamasu + Goku Black?

      That doesn't explain why he looks like Goku, or why Goku is evil.

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    • plot twist: im goku black

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    • And I'm Future Trunks. I will destroy you!

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    • The ring is for time travel, not for giving power. It's literally called a "Time Ring".

      He was, before he became the Saiyan Yamcha. If Toriyama turned him back into a kid then he would be the strongest character ever.

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    • Look Buddy's, You payed attention to the Ring of Black? It's the same as Supreme Kai, So, we could say we was an Kai and then got infected and became a Makaioshin...

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    • Even though, Zamasu has not yet been introduced, I have a theory that he is in fact the one who created Majin Buu. And because, Majin Buu was sealed and never actually freed in Future Trunks' timeline, Zamasu infuriated by this, creates a different emobidment of evil, and knowing that in another timeline Goku is the, so called, embodiment of Good, he creates Black Goku, in spite.

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    • @Taha, I mentioned the Ring because there was a guy who replied that he thought the Ring made Black evil. Though the reply seemed to disappear for some odd reason.

      @Angelicus. I don't know, maybe. Though allegedly Majin Buu has existed since the beginning of time, he wasn't created by anyone.

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    • One thing I'm wondering is since Makaioshin are the opposite of Kaioshins, does that mean Gods of Destruction/"Hakaishin" have demon equivalents too? Like "Mahakaishin" if you like?

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    • It's hard to tell because "Makaioshin" are apparently evil members of the regular Kaioshin race who get sent there as punishment. There'd be no classically 'evil' gods of destruction. and I think rather than punish them, their caretakers would decide it's best to get rid of any that would be so anathema to their job's purpose or the Universe itself that they'd warrant being sent there.


      That is, of course, assuming the Makaioshin term hasn't evolved in the meantime.

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    • Yeah that makes sense. No point in punishing "evil" Destroyer Gods when the "good" Destroyer Gods are already massive assholes. Though if Makaioshins became canon that would make the whole balance of the Gods somewhat confusing, since Destroyer Gods were already the opposite of Kaioshins.

      I'm also curious what race the Destroyer Gods are exactly. How exactly are those bipedal cats even born, since the Kaioshin originate from fruit? Maybe there's a Momma God Sphinx which Beerus and Champa came from.

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    • kinda it confirmed  black is not a god of destruction  goku  kicked him ,how funny people were saying black will kill goku,  ,  all we know he has a ring that kaioshin uses  and beerus mentioned on funny way   kaioshin doesnt look like goku  it is as i understand    black is not a kaoshin   

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    • Black made an interesting quote in the latest episode (Heard from Geekdon101, Translation from Herms),

      Black(To Goku): I feel honoured to fight you in this body.

      I don't think he is Ginyu. If he was, he shouldn't have known who Beerus is.

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    • It seems like he took Goku's form, that doesn't mean it's Goku's body though. It's just too different to be the real Goku with the shadow powers.

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    • yes  he said something like he is honored to fight in this body, goku ; what do you mean , black ;you dont need to know , after goku kicked on his chest  black said this pain will make him stronger ,  in the end   black said he learned fighting way of them and it will sharpen him to go further in strength  , he said now trunks cannot return to this era so  there isnt  any enemy left in this era 

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    • Delectable Bunny wrote:
      plot twist: im goku black

      Hahahaha funny, girl

      Nope, you're Pan/Videl/Mai black

      The new episode confirmed someone stole Goku's body (funny, that Masako Nozawa voiced him, maybe in the DBK Kai Ginyu-Goku would be voiced by mrs. Masako like in Sparking?)

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    • i think this goku black must have something to do with the 6 destroyed universe and zeno sama, else there would be no need to introduced them at all.  

      personally i think this goku black is one of the god of destruction or somekind of god escaped from 1 of thoes destroyed universes and is seeking revenge to zeno sama, but for some reason he had to taken on goku's form and wreck havoc in future trunk's timeline. 

       

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    • In light of the new evidence we've recieved, I now think that Black is some sort of "Time Reaper" of sorts, whose purpose is to inforce the law of the Gods. He most likely would have been created by or is working for/along with Zamasu, who is either a Kaioshin or a Makaioshin himself, as that's where Black recieved the Time Ring and Potara Earring from.

      Black's purpose would be to travel amongst the universe, possibly every universe, and find those who had violated the law of the Gods and dispense justice upon them. This is why Black stated that he was destroying the Earth, "For justice", as well as explain why Black was stated to have destroyed many other worlds in similar fashion before he did Earth.

      This would also explain why exactly he's so doged in his pursuit of Future Trunks specifically - because Trunks himself was the one who repeatedly broke the law of time multiple times, and thus caused an unnatural convergence in the timelines.

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    • I've seen u at the dokkan battle wiki ^

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    • RoaIgnusCiel wrote:

      In light of the new evidence we've recieved, I now think that Black is some sort of "Time Reaper" of sorts, whose purpose is to inforce the law of the Gods. He most likely would have been created by or is working for/along with Zamasu, who is either a Kaioshin or a Makaioshin himself, as that's where Black recieved the Time Ring and Potara Earring from.

      Black's purpose would be to travel amongst the universe, possibly every universe, and find those who had violated the law of the Gods and dispense justice upon them. This is why Black stated that he was destroying the Earth, "For justice", as well as explain why Black was stated to have destroyed many other worlds in similar fashion before he did Earth.

      This would also explain why exactly he's so doged in his pursuit of Future Trunks specifically - because Trunks himself was the one who repeatedly broke the law of time multiple times, and thus caused an unnatural convergence in the timelines.

      By far the best Goku Black theory I've seen.

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    • I believe black goku is Broly, well at least a reincarnation of Broly. This would explain why "black goku" can keep powering up like there's no limit, like Broly. During the battle between goku and black goku, black goku's blasts are just like broly's. Well that's just a little theory I thought up😃.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      RoaIgnusCiel wrote:

      In light of the new evidence we've recieved, I now think that Black is some sort of "Time Reaper" of sorts, whose purpose is to inforce the law of the Gods. He most likely would have been created by or is working for/along with Zamasu, who is either a Kaioshin or a Makaioshin himself, as that's where Black recieved the Time Ring and Potara Earring from.

      Black's purpose would be to travel amongst the universe, possibly every universe, and find those who had violated the law of the Gods and dispense justice upon them. This is why Black stated that he was destroying the Earth, "For justice", as well as explain why Black was stated to have destroyed many other worlds in similar fashion before he did Earth.

      This would also explain why exactly he's so doged in his pursuit of Future Trunks specifically - because Trunks himself was the one who repeatedly broke the law of time multiple times, and thus caused an unnatural convergence in the timelines.

      By far the best Goku Black theory I've seen.

      Thanks, though I'll cheerfully admit that I thought differently when Black was first introduced. Some other things that I didn't mention, is that it might also explain how he knew who Beerus was - if he really was alliliated with the Kaioshin or the Makaioshin, then it would only make sense that he had an understanding of the Gods heirarchy.

      As far as WHY he looks like Goku... well, that's another matter. It could be that Zamasu used Goku's dead body to use, or it could even be Future Goku himself, who could have met Zamasu in the Other World after he died. We don't know enough at this point to really say definitively, though I'd like to think my theory checks a good number of the boxes.

      (Certainly more believeable then Goten, anyways.)

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    • Davidlowkz wrote:
      I believe black goku is Broly, well at least a reincarnation of Broly. This would explain why "black goku" can keep powering up like there's no limit, like Broly. During the battle between goku and black goku, black goku's blasts are just like broly's. Well that's just a little theory I thought up😃.

      Wow, the first Broly Fan Boy I have seen in the last 6 months. Congrats.

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    • ...Why, and how in the world, would Goku Black be Broly? 😂😂

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    • Goku Black = future Janemba after taking on a different form.

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    • RoaIgnusCiel wrote:

      Thanks, though I'll cheerfully admit that I thought differently when Black was first introduced. Some other things that I didn't mention, is that it might also explain how he knew who Beerus was - if he really was alliliated with the Kaioshin or the Makaioshin, then it would only make sense that he had an understanding of the Gods heirarchy.

      As far as WHY he looks like Goku... well, that's another matter. It could be that Zamasu used Goku's dead body to use, or it could even be Future Goku himself, who could have met Zamasu in the Other World after he died. We don't know enough at this point to really say definitively, though I'd like to think my theory checks a good number of the boxes.

      (Certainly more believeable then Goten, anyways.)

      No problem.

      Likewise, I have had a lot of Goku Black theories circulate through my head. But I have suspected he was linked to the Gods somehow for quite a time, probably Kaioshin or Makaioshin. His shadow powers cannot be explained without some mystical origin.

      I think Black's comment of being in Goku's body indicates he isn't Goku himself, rather just took Goku's form. Or if it really is Goku's body, Zamasu's conscience might be inside Goku. Since Goku and all the Saiyans had long since overpassed the Kaioshins when Majin Buu showed up.

      Even Toriyama got a laugh out of the Goten theory. I think we've had every single Goku doppelganger be considered and rejected.


      Broly limitless? Lol, Goku kicks his sorry ass every time. He's only a Level 1 Super Saiyan.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      RoaIgnusCiel wrote:

      Thanks, though I'll cheerfully admit that I thought differently when Black was first introduced. Some other things that I didn't mention, is that it might also explain how he knew who Beerus was - if he really was alliliated with the Kaioshin or the Makaioshin, then it would only make sense that he had an understanding of the Gods heirarchy.

      As far as WHY he looks like Goku... well, that's another matter. It could be that Zamasu used Goku's dead body to use, or it could even be Future Goku himself, who could have met Zamasu in the Other World after he died. We don't know enough at this point to really say definitively, though I'd like to think my theory checks a good number of the boxes.

      (Certainly more believeable then Goten, anyways.)

      No problem.

      Likewise, I have had a lot of Goku Black theories circulate through my head. But I have suspected he was linked to the Gods somehow for quite a time, probably Kaioshin or Makaioshin. His shadow powers cannot be explained without some mystical origin.

      I think Black's comment of being in Goku's body indicates he isn't Goku himself, rather just took Goku's form. Or if it really is Goku's body, Zamasu's conscience might be inside Goku. Since Goku and all the Saiyans had long since overpassed the Kaioshins when Majin Buu showed up.

      Even Toriyama got a laugh out of the Goten theory. I think we've had every single Goku doppelganger be considered and rejected.


      Broly limitless? Lol, Goku kicks his sorry ass every time. He's only a Level 1 Super Saiyan.


      Agreed for the most part - I went through quite a few divfferent ideas before I landed where I am now. With new confirmation that the earring he's wearing is in fact a Potara, some link to the Gods is almost undeniable at this point.

      I'm personally in the mind that Black Goku and Zamasu are two different people/entities, although I think that they're associated with each other, for sure. Remember, Black also recognized Vegeta, which is the only thing we can't explain if Black was Zamasu. Rather, I think Zamasu either embued Goku's dead body or his spirit with some kind of evil that lets Black exist - a created henchman/coworker, of sorts.

      And yeah, Toriyama put of a comment about how ridiculous the Goten theory was, which I agree with - I think people just jumped on it because both Black and Goten have long sleeves, and it would be an interesting duality with an adult Goten and Trunks as enemies, opposed to kid Trunks and Goten as best friends.

      And Broly... well, in Second Coming, I powerscaled him to be just below Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc) a few years back, so he's on SSJ2 level, though still below Goku or Vegeta. (Trollers gonna troll when it comes to Brolytards - just ignore them.)

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    • i believe goku black is goku corpse in future trunks time line. during episode 50 when goku challenge black to a duel. black did say that it was an honor to fight goku in this body. and remember goku gets excited when he fights someone who is stronger. black felt the same, saying that this is what a super saiyan goku feels like while looking at himself and then power up once again with his power even greater then before. black did hint to goku about thebody and goku was confuse and black repeated that "theres no need for u to understand that".

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    • Episode 53 detailed Reveal True Identity of Black: Now off to the Kaioshin Realm of Universe 10 

      it confirms  Zamasu is from universe 10 and so black 

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    • And it is now revealed that Black and Zamasu have the same ki.

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    • Is Universe 10 Goku evil? 

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    • Universe 10 should not have Goku, or any Saiyan for that matter.

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    • Might be a Morality Mirror universe.

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    • episode 53  beerus and whiss realize that black has same ki with zamasu from universe 10 , beerus , whiss and goku head to universe 10,  goku challenges zamasu who distrusts humans , in a battle  but ... probably zamasu wont accept it 

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    • One episode behind and I get flooded with spoilers :/

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    • Stryzzar wrote: One episode behind and I get flooded with spoilers :/

      Join the club and I'm 2 behind

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    • haha Is it something wrong with getting spoilers ,  most are looking for spoilers , they just cant suppress their  curiosity ,   unfortunately there is still not a  major spoiler about identity of black just  he has same ki as zamasu 

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    • I know what Goku Black is. A horribly unoriginal and rehashed idea made by lazy writers who cash in on a franchise that should be left well enough alone by now.

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    • In a nutshell basically

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    • DraculaCronqvist wrote: I know what Goku Black is. A horribly unoriginal and rehashed idea made by lazy writers who cash in on a franchise that should be left well enough alone by now.

      Uhhhh..."lazy writers"? AT came up with the idea tho...

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    • Lets wait until we actually see Blaku for more than 5 minutes before saying unoriginal.

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    • Shadowprophet77 wrote: I feel that since The future trunks time line is all about time travel,  That someone traveled back in time, to the time Goku would have hit his head, And thus prevented Goku from turning to the light to begin with. I believe the whole time line was changed at this point,  there was no Gohan or Chi Chi, Just a ruthless Goku killing the earth,  And Why is his power so great?  I believe at one point Goku encountered berus and Whiss and Gokus power impressed Berus.  And he was granted these abilities,  Keep in mind Berus is only a good guy because of his fondness toward Goku, Berus simply doesn't care about things like good or evil.  

      This Wouldn't Make Sense Because That Time Travel Would Create A New Timeline Entirely, And Wouldn't Explain Him Being In Future Trunks' Timeline.

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    • My Current Theory Is That Zamasu And Black Are Twins Which Would Explain Why They Have The Same Ki, And Black Is A Shapeshifting Or Body Stealing Makaioshin, And Zamasu Is A Good Kaioshin.

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    • They have the same Ki because they're probably the same person. Zamasu could have his soul inside Black and is puppetting him.

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    • Tailsman67 wrote:

      DraculaCronqvist wrote: I know what Goku Black is. A horribly unoriginal and rehashed idea made by lazy writers who cash in on a franchise that should be left well enough alone by now.

      Uhhhh..."lazy writers"? AT came up with the idea tho...


      AT's best ideas are long, long past him. Pilfering a fan-manga for ideas is not my idea of creativity.

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    • Does anyone Which kai is great. I know there are a lot of Kai's and God's. But who works under who. Everyone fears Beerus, He works under Zeno. And there are kai's who works under grand kai. And then Supreme kai's and now God King. Too much confusion for me. Can anyone explain?

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    • ^ Where'd U Get God King From? lol If It Was From Zeno, Then Its Incorrect, He's Not A God King, He's The King Of All

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    • i just watched live   beerus just said he felt that ki before but where  next episode preview zamasu shows up , beerus whiss and goku  going to universe 10    they didnt show  mai but it was a flash back , 

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    • The Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction don't take orders from each other, they operate separately. Sort of like a Police Officer doesn't listen to a Hospital Warden. But they're both underneath the government. Zen'O is the big cheese who everyone listens to.

      Basically Supereme Kais and Gods of Destruction operate in one universe, while Zen'O's authority encompasses all 12 universes.

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    • hah black just sees humans as failure and humans must be exterminated to make a perfect world , just because humans have feelings and admit their mistakes ?  what an egoistic thought

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    • Zamasu looks so much better than any of the Kaioshins before him.

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    • Maybe he's an AI? 

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    • I Think Black Is Just A Disgruntled Kai Who Is Just A Dick. lol.

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    • That ridiculous Black is a grownup Goten theory has now spread all over the internet.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: That ridiculous Black is a grownup Goten theory has now spread all over the internet.

      You'd swear ppl lacked common sense. I should bring up Geekdom so he can go on and on about how it can't be Goten.

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    • I think some people are just going along with it for shits and giggles, because of how stupid it is. That theory has pretty much become memetic, just like "Goku is faster than time!" due to SSB Kaio Ken overriding the Time-Skip.

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    • Tailsman67 wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote: That ridiculous Black is a grownup Goten theory has now spread all over the internet.

      You'd swear ppl lacked common sense. I should bring up Geekdom so he can go on and on about how it can't be Goten.

      Say it's this goku instead. i'm hoping that spreads.

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    • I'm not entirely sure if it started with you or multiple people.

      I still don't think he's Goku at all. Beerus said Black felt different from Goku.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I'm not entirely sure if it started with you or multiple people.

      I still don't think he's Goku at all. Beerus said Black felt different from Goku.

      i didn't start the goten theory when i chose that theory before my current one. then someone posted a 'fake tweet' here which you believed was real but i manged to trace it back to where it was originaly created from: a fan facebook page that 'created that tweet' but the comments were barking on that they heard that goten theory for days.

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    • I never cared if the tweet was fake or not, I just didn't believe the theory.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      "Black is Goten" theory, officially debunked. Thank God/Toriyama for that.

      Yep, all that points to Black having mystical, godly origins. He chose to look like Goku, but outside of that the similarities end. Doesn't even have Goku's powers.

      this begs to differ.

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    • If you looked further earlier than that, I was always opposed to that theory, long before someone showed that tweet. For me it didn't matter if the tweet was real. If it was real then it supported the theory being invalid, if it was fake it made no difference.

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    • fair enough you win this round i won't be back on this forum anymore. cos there's always new info around the corner.

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    • Goten Couldn't Possibly Exist Because He Was Born Between Sagas. And Goku Died Before The Android Saga Even Came To A Conclusion. And So Did Chichi.

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    • Bob1200 wrote: Goten Couldn't Possibly Exist Because He Was Born Between Sagas. And Goku Died Before The Android Saga Even Came To A Conclusion. And So Did Chichi.

      Chi-Chi did not die during that time period. She was still alive during The History of Trunks TV special.

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    • She Was? lol I Never Saw That.

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    • Well what people said about that theory was Goten was from a timeline different to Trunks'. Don't ask me how that works, it doesn'tmake sense to me either.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Well what people said about that theory was Goten was from a timeline different to Trunks'. Don't ask me how that works, it doesn'tmake sense to me 

      a youtuber spreads a theory and  everyone runs after that  haha goten bardock turles,  i was using that tweet just to tease them  not matter if it was real or fake even i got that tweet from someone's post ,  there are many senseless theories around ,  something was for sure Akira wouldnt come with such cheap theories 

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    • I didn't mean how the theory spread, I mean how Goten existed in that timeline.

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    • I never bought into the whole "Black is Future Goten" theory, I always thought it was bull.

      But to be fair, Goten could technically exist in the Future Timeline. (Don't ask me how we wouldn't have seen him throughout all of DBZ if he actually existed, though) Goten could've been conceived toward the very end of the wait until the Androids' arrival.

      Still doesn't explain why this supposed "Future Goten" wasn't seen throughout all of DBZ, and is pretty much completely debunked at this point, since Black said that his body was Goku's body, implying he somehow stole it or possessed it somehow.

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    • Nah, it wouldn't work. If he was conceived at a different time, he wouldn't be the same Goten. The time of conception is very important in determining who we are. Otherwise Gohan would have a different brother/sister. But then again it's anime logic, so who knows?

      I think the fact he was called Goku Black already strongly opposed the theory, since we already know that Goten doesn't look like Goku when he's older, as End of Z and GT have shown. Not to mention Goten is not that strong and there are far better candidates for body jacking. Future Trunks would have been a superior choice for Black to impersonate.

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    • We don't know when Goten was concieved, because the series never touched on it. We've always assumed "it" happened during the wait until the Cell Games, but that's never been confirmed. For all we know, it could've been at the very end of the wait until the Androids.

      But yeah, based on his age and how Goten should look at that age, (although it seems Super has been ignoring End of Z and especially GT) not to mention the things Black has said, it's more obvious than ever he's not Goten.

      As for who I think he is... I've liked the idea that he's actually the Universe 3 version of Universe 10's Zamasu. (Seeing as to how those two universes are twin universes) That's the boat I'm on until next episode reveals some more information.

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    • The manga actually implied it was during the wait for the Cell Games. During Goten's introduction it was said he was the son who Goku left with Chi Chi before going to fight Cell.

      Perhaps. But I'm still not onboard with the "twin" universes being "parallel" universes. I don't think you'll find an alternate Goku and Vegeta somewhere in Universe 6. For now all we know is Black is linked to Zamasu. At this stage we don't even know if Zamasu is a hero or a villain. And do his appearances in the sneak peak mean he will meet the main cast, or are they flashbacks from Beerus or something?

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    • Hmm.. I guess that line could be interpreted that way. I never thought of it like that. Still, I'm not sold on that just yet. Still, it doesn't matter, we pretty much know for sure there is no Future Goten, lol.

      Yeah, like I said, next episode will probably change my theory on how Black and Zamasu are related.

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    • Now others have probably come up with this before, but as of the latest episode, I think Black is Future Zamasu.

      Present Zamasu might not know about Goku and might not even have the extreme "humans are a mistake" ideology, but Future Zamasu may have developed this thought pattern at some point, and then acquired Goku's form to do the job.

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    • Maybe. There's definitely some connection between the two. We don't know if alternate timelines apply to other universes tho.

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    • Well i have one new theory, renember when Kakarotto was sent to Earth to kill every HUMAN on it, but lost his memory and became Goku? I think Black IS the evil half of Goku - Kakarotto

      "we pretty much know for sure there is no Future Goten, lol" - well the Daizenshuu 7 states that Goten was born at the Cell games, so maybe in the future Gohan-chan had a younger brother, but Toriyama didn't thought of Videl/Goten/Mark yet

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    • BH Ouji wrote: Well i have one new theory, renember when Kakarotto was sent to Earth to kill every HUMAN on it, but lost his memory and became Goku? I think Black IS the evil half of Goku - Kakarotto

      Highly unlikely considering Black basically said the form he looks like now, Goku's, isn't his original form.

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    • 1) Black's power keep increasing when fighting Goku (remember when Ginew took Goku's body???)

      2) When fighting with Goku, Black watches is hands, like someone in a new body

      3) Black came from Future Trunk's World

      4) Black have the same body as Goku

      5) Black have the same ki of Zamasu

      6) Black have Potaro earrings

      7) When speaking with Future Trunks, Black states: "You're a saiyan"

      So, in Future Trunks' World, someone (Zamasu or another guy), used the Potara on a dying Goku soon before or soon after is death, to control his powerful body...

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    • BH Ouji wrote: Well i have one new theory, renember when Kakarotto was sent to Earth to kill every HUMAN on it, but lost his memory and became Goku? I think Black IS the evil half of Goku - Kakarotto

      "we pretty much know for sure there is no Future Goten, lol" - well the Daizenshuu 7 states that Goten was born at the Cell games, so maybe in the future Gohan-chan had a younger brother, but Toriyama didn't thought of Videl/Goten/Mark yet

      Black has pretty much openly said he's not a Saiyan. So he can't be Kakarot, who is pretty much Goku's true Saiyan side.

      The fact he mentions fighting Goku "in this body" infers that's not his true form either.


      Also Goten wasn't born during the Cell Games, he was conceived during the Cell Games. As in Goku and Chi-Chi had a little fun at night before Goku went to fight Cell.

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    • Why do people still think he's some literal evil Goku?

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    • No idea. I had doubts about that even before Black appeared in the anime. But now it's pretty much impossible.

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    • Here's a lil advice for you guys, whatever is the first theory that pops into ya hype raging fan head....trash it and pick the 6th one.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Yep, all that points to Black having mystical origins

      Wow no wonder Vegeta kun was pissed

      "Also Goten wasn't born during the Cell Games" - i know (?), that was a Daizenshuu 7 mistake

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    • Instead of just shooting wild random guesses, it would help for everyone to collectively focus their efforts on employing some kind of deductive reasoning based on actual facts observed from the couple of recent episodes.  Nick13tl did a good job, and I will add to his list:

      1) Black's power keeps increasing when he fights Goku

      2) Black's fighting skills improve and he learns as he fights Goku

      3) Black immediately recognizes Beerus as the "God of Destruction" when he sees him - this implies that he knows who Beerus is

      4) When fighting Future Trunks, Black makes several comments about Future Trunks being a Saiyan, and even says something along the lines of "what a pitiful end to the proud saiyan warrior race."  This implies that Black probably existed when the Saiyans existed in greater numbers, and when they used to pillage, conquer, and sell other weaker planets throughout the galaxy.  This also implies that Black is probably not strictly from Earth, but existed in a more universal setting, as he was aware of the Saiyans.  Black's comments also seem strikingly similar to Frieza's disparaging and condescending comments about saiyans towards Goku and Vegeta when he Frieza was alive and fighting them.  This may imply that Black has personal feelings against Saiyans, and/or that Frieza has something to do with Black's existence.

      5) Black is from Future Trunk's world - he does not exist in the current present world, or he is not yet in his full form

      6) Black appears to have the same physical form as Goku, but upon closer look, his body and face actually look slightly different from Goku 's - this may mean something

      7) Black has the same ki or same kind of ki as Zamasu - this VERY strongly suggests that Zamasu has something to do with Black.  Either Zamasu is part of Black, or Zamasu's descendants or someone else from his kin/race has contributed to Black's existence.  Note, Zamasu is a kaioshin who is also an elite master warrior

      8) Black has ONE potara earring - whatever this may mean

      9) Beerus says that he has felt Black's ki BEFORE - meaning whatever Black is, it probably existed even before the present time as Beerus has felt its ki before

      10) Beerus says something like "his ki feels like Goku's but it's not like Goku" - this is a really interesting comment

      11)  Zamasu is from a different universe - I don't remember exactly which one - but if it's one of the alternate universes, he may come from a universe in which saiyans also existed - in this case, Zamasu may be familiar with the Saiyans from that other alternate universe, not necessarily the one in which earth is.  Alternatively, since during the battle in the galaxy with the kid saiyan from the alternate universe, the kid saiyan mentioned that saiyans in his world are a peaceful race - in which case, Zamasu may indeed be familiar with the "original" saiyans from the current universe where earth is, since Zamasu refers to the saiyans as a proud warrior race.

      Feel free to add any more observations or deductions

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    • I'd like to add one more thing. We don't know for sure Black's earring is a Potara. Sure it looks like a Potara, but the Kaioshins probably have all sorts of mystical earrings.

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    • We do know it's a Potara. It's been revealed for some weeks now: http://i.imgur.com/iQN5mv0.jpg

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    • I'm sorry, I can't read Japanese. What exactly is that saying?

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    • In the left, "Potara closeup" (near the big ear).

      In the right, it says Potara too, while pointing to the earring.

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    • Okay thanks.

      Well it being Potara still has a lot of possibilities on Black's origins.

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    • Possibly we will see Black Goku gaining more power with along the time, Kinda Like FSSJ AND Kaioken.

      I Dont Know, it's possible, ALSO ONE BIG THING!

      He has a problem on his heart, Meaning that he alteardy fused infintly with Goku, But, he tryed retiring the Earring because of a Heart Problem, He dint made it so he accuatly had to stay with it, and he lost one Earring!

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    • My theory:

      Goku Black is actually someone linked with Zamasu (lol we all know). So Zamasu absolutely hates the mortals and humans because they constantly get into war. After Zamasu has a battle with Goku and is completely outclassed, his hatred for them grows as he believes that their power is going unchecked, so he is basically kind of like an elitist. After his fight with Goku, he and his master Gowasu warp thousand years into the future to check the state of the mortals, and discovers that a war has brought them down to a horrible situation and people are literally begging for death. Zamasu starts believing that mortals are the faults of the Gods and the thing they really do deserve is death before they cause an event of mass casualties.

      So he kills Gowasu, steals his Time Ring and a special Potara Ring belonging to Gowasu that will allow him to fuse the power of any other people or enter a host's body. So he knows that Goku is the direct threat to his plans of the extinction of all humankind and knows that he won't be able to defeat him right now as Beerus and Whis are related to him. He also loaths Goku's perfect power and uses the Time Ring to hunt down the different Goku from the different timelines of the multiverse and all pocket realities and use one single body, which is the avatar of Goku Black, and steals the power of several Goku's of several timelines. He eventually begins a liking for his bloodthirsty rampage and gets fully corrupted and he starts absorbing the powers of everyone from different timelines.

      He lands in Trunks' future where there is no Goku and begins rampaging in order to draw out his other self, but eventually finds Future Trunks who is able to escape his might. Since Zamasu is an elitist, Zamasu is humiliated that he can't kill Future Trunks and goes after him. But Future Trunks escapes from his timeline and the events of Episodes 50 and so on continues.

      So Bulma then fixes Trunks' Time Machine and the Z-Fighters travel to that timeline and then something happens after that, maybe.

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    • Not sure about the hunt down Goku from different timelines part, but otherwise that's pretty much exactly what I thought.

      Though I admit having a Dragon Ball version of Gog or Morlun (hunters of alternate Supermen and Spider-Men) would be pretty cool.

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    • You are r8.

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    • sorry?

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    • I meant you stand corrected :D

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    • ah right :)

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    • by unconfirmed  episode titles  55- zeno wants to see goku ,   56 goku vs black  rematch  SSJ rose appears  personally i didnt like pink over black  , 57 - SSJ blue goku  ,  goku shows he was holding back   will he able to beat black once for all

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    • "SSJ rose"

      So Black becomes Bishie or some sh!t?

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    • I do truly enjoy the fact Black is more or less confirmed to not 'just be Evil Goku'. If it was an Evil Goku I'd think it's the worst plotline in DB history.

      Right now, it feels like Black is either someone shapechanged, or someone possessing Goku's dead/sick body. Zamasu is possible because something could've happened in Trunks' timeline to him, It would explain the mild suggestion after his fight with Goku that he has a heart problem.


      I do think it's inevitable he will get a transformation at some point to force our heroes to treat him seriously, but I do hope Trunks defeats him in the 'red' Super Saiyan God form (performing the ritual just before they send him off into the future). 

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    • Likewise. Evil Goku would have been a terrible plot. I'm impressed they managed to keep up the mystery for so long, and even now we still don't know for sure what Black is.

      My money is on Zamasu took on Black's form. Maybe he transferred his soul into Goku's corpse?

      I wondered why Black didn't have a super-mode during any of his fights. His base was really that strong? If he does get a transformation he should be able to compete at God level.

      You mean Trunks getting SSG? That would be epic. He's the most deserving candidate for God-hood.

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    • Lol

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    • @Stryzzar, I've got a theory as new evidence has been revealed by toriyama and episode 53-54 of dragon ball super.

      My theory is that Goku Black is actually future Zamasu as hinted that during the battle between ssj2 goku and Zamasu. Zamasu says that he has never encountered a human (technically saiyan) having imense power. He still holds a deadly grudge against humaninty like Goku Black. But, in episode 54 Zamasu and his master travel ro a different planet in their universe and encounter a species of humanoid-rhino like aliens living ruthlessly. Zamasu wonders if they should be exterminated from existense but is given the option of seeing their future.

      Now hear me out, when Gowasu (Zamasu's master/teacher) offers the chance to see the future. He says that Zamasu must briefly become a supreme kai by taking of his normal potara earings and put a supreme kai's one on while also wearing the same time ring which is exactly identical to the ones Goku Black wears. So my next guess is that Zamasu was allowed to stay a supreme kai for a while and gathered incredible power that be soon overpowered Gowasu and killed him in battle. Soon Zamasu wanted to exact revenge on the human race and thought that if he were to take the body of Goku he would no longer be known as a hero but a murderer.

      So over time Zamasu, now Goku Black decided to wipe out universe 7's humanity by going to different timelines (thus the time rimg would have granted him that). He then meets Future Trunks and then would started the story arc that we watched at episode 53.

      I was also thinking about the new Super Saiyan Rose which apparently is Goku Black's version of SSGSS. Which makes me think that the body Zamasu/Goku Black's puppet body is actually a copied replica of the one Zamasu battled.

      What do you think?

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    • I thought Black was future Zamasu as well, actually said that above if you scroll up a bit. However question still remains on how Zamasu managed to look like Goku, that's what everyone is debating.

      I didn't go as far as to think about Zamasu betraying Gowasu, but since you brought it up that is very possible.

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    • I know right, but think about it. He distrists humainty and argues with him and the more intenese it gets Zamasu gets furiuos at him for no understanding

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    • Gowasu*

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    • I think Zamasu got the body of goku from a furure battle with Goku Black/Future Zamasu. The present Zamasu then encounters Goku and Black battling and watches above. Goku dies due to the imense power of Super Saiyan Rose. However vegeta and Future Trunks kill black. Zamasu then quickly steals Goku's body and vows to get stronger while adopting a sadistic personality thus creating Goku Black.

      What do you think?

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    • Small problem with that theory is Dragon Ball uses alternate timelines (a.k.a. multiverse theory), so changes in the past won't effect the future. Meaning it doesn't answer how Goku Black/Future Zamasu got Goku's body to begin with, since Present Zamasu getting Goku's body will not effect Future Zamasu.

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    • I know this is absolutely unlikely and Potefeu Saga was just a filler, but do you think the Commeson was used by Zamasu to somehow copy or drain Goku's powers?

      I guess not.

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    • http://www.fujitv.co.jp/b_hp/dragonball_super/index.html  longer preview of episode 55 

      zamasu looks like a bit ashamed of himself  but is it for real  ?  he is like he will never change his judgement about humans 

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    • DuttPanda wrote:

      I know this is absolutely unlikely and Potefeu Saga was just a filler, but do you think the Commeson was used by Zamasu to somehow copy or drain Goku's powers?

      I guess not.

      Doubt it. The Commeson was from Universe 7 while Zamasu is from Universe 10, the core was destroyed, Supreme Kais probably wouldn't stoop as low as to use mortal technology, and it was very unpopular so the writers would be playing with fire to use that again.

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    • I made an account just so I can post my theory, lol.

      Okay, here's what I think Zamasu did.

      Zamasu steals the time ring and Gowasu's second earring. (Gowasu already gave him one of them). He travels to Universe 7's planet Namek, and hunts down the dragon balls there. He makes three wishes.

      1. Bring Goku's body to him.

      2. If it isn't fixed up, fix it up to mint condition.

      Inbetween wishes, he puts Gowasu's second earring on Goku.

      3. Revive Goku.

      After that, they fuse. But, instead of being a mix, Zamasu's evil spirit overpowers the combined spirits and takes complete control. Though, there is a hole in this (The fusion might come out Green), this solves 3 things.

      1. Solves why Black's ki is similar to Zamasu's, but not exactly.

      2. How Black has Gowasu's earring and a Time Ring.

      3. Why Black Goku was seen unable to beat SSJ2 Goku.


      If you see any other holes, message me.

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    • if you watched preview you can see  zamasu gives potara  back to gowasu with a ashamed face and dragon ball heros trailer black and zamasu show up  separately,  each one has green potara ,   and it is hard to believe that black will be born in one episode  because  episode 56 goku trunks and vegeta go together to future but it seems goku will fight black in first place  

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    • he is like he will never change his judgement about humans 

      Cool story bro

      This is what should have been done to those Jesus killers

      http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-600.html

      http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-599.html

      No really, i know there are GOOD humans, but most of them make saiyans look like a gentle lambs

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    • Kidgoku1 wrote: if you watched preview you can see  zamasu gives potara  back to gowasu with a ashamed face and dragon ball heros trailer black and zamasu show up  separately,  each one has green potara ,   and it is hard to believe that black will be born in one episode  because  episode 56 goku trunks and vegeta go together to future but it seems goku will fight black in first place  

      Yeah. Perhaps Black encounters present Zamasu or uses the time ring to communicate with him.

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    • I haven't seen all the eps released yet so bear with me

      I had a crazy thought what if Black Goku is a Goku from another universe possessed by Baby in parasite form (Yes I know GT isn't very good just a crazy theory that popped into my head)

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    • I think that has been done. There's very strong evidence that Black is not the original Goku in any way, but someone who stole Goku's appearance and power.

      When you say "another universe" do you mean an alternate timeline or one of the numbered universes?

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    • I think alternate timeline but not sure (whatever GT could be counted as in this series)

      the only reasons I thought of it is from what I remember from GT Baby wanted to take over the strongest sayan (which in regular gt was vegeta since goku was off planet)

      plus also Baby loathes the sayans and combine that with what Goku Black says or thinks about sayans you can see where I got the theory from along with Baby being a parasite.

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    • If they do decide to keep GT canon (I'm going to get flack for saying that shortly after), then they might set up a time travel plot to allow GT to diverge from the Super timeline.

      I guess they are similar in their hatred of Saiyans. Although Black doesn't hate Saiyans specifically, he hates all mortal life that resemble humans.

      I don't think Black said anything about wanting to take over the strongest Saiyan. If it was Baby wouldn't he take over the population of the Earth rather than destroy everything? Also he appears to respect Goku, while Baby hates him bitterly.

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    • I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.

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    • Tailsman67 wrote:
      I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.

      And excluding when mr. Piccolo "killed" him, when EXACLY does FGoku's body left on Earth? NEVER! So FGoku has his body and soul in the afterlife

      "plus also Baby loathes the sayans" - oh god, hating a bunch of hitlers, isn't that evil?

      Really the Baby saga, was good vs evil, where (DUN DUN DUN) Baby was good and Goku was evil (so yeah the saiyans were celebrating in hell, when Goku killed Baby)

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    • BH Ouji wrote:

      Tailsman67 wrote:
      I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.

      And excluding when mr. Piccolo "killed" him, when EXACLY does FGoku's body left on Earth? NEVER! So FGoku has his body and soul in the afterlife

      There is that also.

      BH Ouji wrote:

      "plus also Baby loathes the sayans" - oh god, hating a bunch of hitlers, isn't that evil?

      Really the Baby saga, was good vs evil, where (DUN DUN DUN) Baby was good and Goku was evil (so yeah the saiyans were celebrating in hell, when Goku killed Baby)


      Yeah, but what right did Babi have to take his anger out on two saiyans that had nothing to do with his race's extinction, not only that, but mind controlling their family, blowing up a planet not involved. I'd say his ass woopin' was just deserved. Cause in case you haven't noticed, The Saiyan race has paid for their crimes more than once.

      Their planet's guardian.

      Super Saiyan God.

      Frieza.

      And the last one f*cking killed them.

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    • Tailsman67 wrote:

      BH Ouji wrote:


      Tailsman67 wrote:
      I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.
      And excluding when mr. Piccolo "killed" him, when EXACLY does FGoku's body left on Earth? NEVER! So FGoku has his body and soul in the afterlife
      There is that also.


      BH Ouji wrote:

      "plus also Baby loathes the sayans" - oh god, hating a bunch of hitlers, isn't that evil?

      Really the Baby saga, was good vs evil, where (DUN DUN DUN) Baby was good and Goku was evil (so yeah the saiyans were celebrating in hell, when Goku killed Baby)

      Yeah, but what right did Babi have to take his anger out on two saiyans that had nothing to do with his race's extinction, not only that, but mind controlling their family, blowing up a planet not involved. I'd say his ass woopin' was just deserved. Cause in case you haven't noticed, The Saiyan race has paid for their crimes more than once.

      Their planet's guardian.

      Frieza.

      1.Funny, they ARE the same person

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UBVFioEbp8

      2.LOL, Baby is a mad person, they should put him here instead http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/34017/szpital_psychiatryczny_fotolia_600.jpeg

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    • Wut? Goku wasn't evil. The Saiyans were, but Goku didnt do anything wrong. I never understood why Baby took over every Saiyan, but left Goku untouched to take revenge on. It would make more sense to possess Goku and kill Vegeta.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Wut? Goku wasn't evil. The Saiyans were, but Goku didnt do anything wrong. I never understood why Baby took over every Saiyan, but left Goku untouched to take revenge on. It would make more sense to possess Goku and kill Vegeta.

      I think it's possible that vegeta's influenced baby in his descions because he possessed his body and vegeta has an immense desire to be better then goku. which transmitted onto baby and merged with his desire for revenge for his people which enhanced when he met goku.

      I should also mention that after absorbing vegeta. baby became affectionate towards bulma. even sweeter then vegeta ever did. obviously because he was in vegeta's system even his brain. 

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    • I reasearched and it said that Black Goku may not be human and that he may be a God of Destruction in Future Trunk's timeline.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      I think it's possible that vegeta's influenced baby in his descions because he possessed his body and vegeta has an immense desire to be better then goku. which transmitted onto baby and merged with his desire for revenge for his people which enhanced when he met goku.

      I should also mention that after absorbing vegeta. baby became affectionate towards bulma. even sweeter then vegeta ever did. obviously because he was in vegeta's system even his brain. 

      I think you might be right. What the series has shown over and over, nothing is bigger than Vegeta's pride, and has repeatedly overwhelmed mind control thanks to it. Some of that may have very likely seeped into Baby.

      Doglover456 wrote:

      I reasearched and it said that Black Goku may not be human and that he may be a God of Destruction in Future Trunk's timeline.

      It was known from the start that Black wasn't human. What's safe to say is he's some kind of God, but at this point it's more likely he's a Supreme Kai.

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    • Tailsman67 wrote: I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.

      Not sure if this was aimed towards me, but the second wish was to fix up Goku's body so that it was as if he had just died.

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    • CookiesJR wrote:

      Tailsman67 wrote: I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.

      Not sure if this was aimed towards me, but the second wish was to fix up Goku's body so that it was as if he had just died.

      The theory that Geekdom I think had was that Zamasu from the Future Trunks timeline took Goku's body right after he passed than used the time ring to skip forward a few more decades.

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    • Now why Zamasu took an interest in Universe 7, Earth, and Goku in particular from the Future Trunks timeline that's the part of the mystery that we still haven't found a good theory for yet.

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    • @Shmeronstar, probably because goku is from universe 7 and his home planet and friends are humans/namekians/majins. That's why.

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    • Shameronstar wrote:
      CookiesJR wrote:

      Tailsman67 wrote: I find that theory silly because I'm sure Goku's body would have been a rotten corpse by now.

      Not sure if this was aimed towards me, but the second wish was to fix up Goku's body so that it was as if he had just died.
      The theory that Geekdom I think had was that Zamasu from the Future Trunks timeline took Goku's body right after he passed than used the time ring to skip forward a few more decades.

      That would make sense, but what would be the point? The androids had already destroyed a lot of stuff, so he could have just destroyed all the humans while the androids were already destroying everyone.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Wut? Goku wasn't evil.

      Hahahaha yes he IS, he just has amnesia

      But my point is, that Goku was the EVIL in this saga, and Baby the GOOD (as he blindly wanted to avenge his race)

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    • He was brainwashed by the Saiyan pod to be a killer, and the amnesia removed that and restored the innocence any normal child would have.

      At best Baby is an antihero/antivillain who seeks revenge on being wronged, but that still doesn't make him good. He went and enslaved the human race, even though they had no part in destroying his planet. Goku wasn't really the evil either, he was just there stopping another threat to the Earth.

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    • not to mention that baby had no plan in stopping after suceeding in his revenge. he was planning in going out and conquering the universe.

      Plus Goku Claimed that the saiyans had already paid for their crimes to both him and frieza with their deaths.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      Plus Goku Claimed that the saiyans had already paid for their crimes to both him and frieza with their deaths.

      That's what he said (in hell Bardock was probably had a facepalm)

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    • I can't believe we are honestly debating this. Goku wasn't wrong, Babi wasn't wrong for the first part. He got his revenge, then he went too far.

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    • Well, after reading a lot of the thoughts and ideas... one thing stands out to me... the sense of poetic yet simple "this is the backstory" of characters in Dragon Ball.. since well... Dragon Ball. The whole complicated view of absorbing others across a multiverse is just not a poetic/simple story telling... there's no real emotional content there. However,... if Black Goku (imo Zamasu or the embodiment of his ideals) origin hits close to home and within the story telling mechanic of DB then I would lean toward believing that more. None of the example I read really hit me at all, and Zamasu I think as a potential villain may have some kind of tiny redeeming quality... not like Freeza's spoiled ass mentality or Buu's insatiable desire and programing to destroy or Cell's ego and design to conquer. I think it's very probable that Black Goku origin will follow the same cliché of a insatiable desire to conquer / destroy but I think this time this villian will have a more relate-able perspective than previous DBZ villians. Something maybe even between the lines of Vegeta and the self-righteous Zamasu.


      Side note since mentioning Zamasu, we are made to interpret that MAYBE Zamasu poisoned his master's tea HOWEVER... the Tea (of the gods) reflects the person who makes it... after Zamasu's spar with Goku... Zamasu's self-righteousness and resolved boiled up more than before... this would definitely change the taste of the tea for his master.  THAT would be poetic... and if at the same time he tried to covertly poison him... well that's one of those double whammy's in storytelling.

      #####

      So Goku Black is wearing the earing, the time ring, interesting Auras we haven't seen previously in combo together before (that I remember).. and fighting ki "similar" to Zamasu. Is it so hard to believe that Zamasu became Gowasu's replacement (probable merging) to become a Kaioshin and later perhaps inadvertently (wouldn't it be funny because how much Zamasu hates mortal "humanoid" beings) merged with a reincarnated Goku? This would give Black Goku a possible buried redeem-able quality. And about merging with Gowasu... IF ... and a big IF... it's possible that Zamasu could overcome Gowasu by sheer will much like Piccolo's early struggles as one bad ass evil mofo. Now... in DB.. themes get recycled often... it could eventually be that Black Goku seperates from the evil within him (what a poetic resolution.. read into it) and becomes friends with Goku and the rest from the main arc timeline. oy vay..... lol.

      #####

      I'm not saying my ideas are better... they're not.. what I'm saying is to encourage others to think from a storyteller/artist point of view instead of a fan point of view... and remember that we have a theme that is almost always followed in DB that as fans we may just take for granted but is what keeps us coming back chomping at the bit for more content... CANON content. (people please stop referecing GT characters and timelines... PLEASE) Canon being the Manga and DB, DBZ, and DB Super (right? I'm still iffy on production details of DB Super). The theme being.... learn from life lessons and overcome to become a BETTER person.. a BETTER you.

      I think Goku Black may just serve that function, in some form, in the storytelling of this Arc.

      Think it through more guys... not in terms of our nerdiness... but in terms of simple but poetic (many times beautiful and funny) DB story telling mechanics that we've seen over the decades from CANON content. #truth

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    • I don't agree that Goku isn't pure of heart as a Super Saiyan. I also think that its possible that Goku Black is simply a shell created possibly by Zamasu.

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    • I just don't buy the idea that Goku isn't pure of heart as a Super Saiyan. I think that he doesn't use the Spirit Bomb technique because he doesn't need to as a Super Saiyan

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    • He wasn't pure when he first transformed against Frieza. His heart was clouded with rage and he wanted to mess with Frieza first before taking him out. King Kai even commented how he wasn't Goku anymore, and was the Super Saiyan.

      They may have regained his pureheart after HTC where he and Gohan controlled the form.

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    • I think that Goku regained his purity of heart after he calmed down enough to decide that in the end Frieza's humiliation was good enough for him.

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    • I don't think it's that simple, Goku had to deal with a physical change, where the physiology gave him a raw instinct to be aggressive and violent. It looked more like to me he just got bored of the fight. Though I always wondered why he was willing to give Frieza some of his energy.

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    • I do. For one thing Vegeta described the Super Saiyan's aggression as being a Saiyans battle instincts as being that their peak. Basically the raw instinct was always there, but the Super Saiyan transformation brought it out in full force to the point where Goku couldn't resist the urge to fight. And Master Roshi astutely observed that Goku was in a great mental struggle, trying to hold on to who he was when he ascended, so my conclusion is that if he lost his purity of heart as a Super Saiyan, he regained it when he chose to spare Frieza, and that was shown when Goku gave Frieza some of his surplus energy.

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    • Fighting against instincts doesn't change the physiology. Basically if Saiyans all have natural urges to fight and kill, which Goku is a lot better at controlling, the Super Saiyan form magnified that.

      Goku was most likely fighting the urges, but he still wanted to leave Frieza to share the fate of the planet. It's Frieza's pleading for his life that gave Goku second thoughts, but he didn't hesitate in blasting Frieza after he cowardly attacked Goku.

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    • True, but remember that Goku has shown a willingness to kill even in Dragon Ball. And the Dragon Ball franchise makes it pretty clear that you don't need to refuse to kill to be pure of heart. Also Goku told Frieza to leave Namek after giving him surplus energy. But I can see this debate is going nowhere.

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    • Yes, but back as a kid he never killed for the fun of it, and he didn't make his enemies suffer. He only did what was necessary to keep the innocent safe. But it wasn't really until DBZ that he adopted that unofficial no kill policy.

      Maybe one could argue he was more immature and simple minded back then, and didn't take up the habit of giving his enemies a chance.

      He did tell Frieza that, but I feel like he was doing that against his better judgement, and some of his compassion in his base form seeped through. But he was still much more angrier than usual when he was on Frieza's ship.

      He might have become pure when he returned to Earth and had controlled the Super Saiyan form, but I doubt he was pure right after the fight with Frieza.

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    • The lack of purity during the majority of the fight with Frieza I can sorta see.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      King Kai even commented how he wasn't Goku anymore, and was the Super Saiyan.

      And that's why SSJ1 Goku (Freeza saga) is the true SSJ spoken of legends, he's angry, bloodthirsty and a badass

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    • Lol

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    • BH Ouji wrote:

      And that's why SSJ1 Goku (Freeza saga) is the true SSJ spoken of legends, he's angry, bloodthirsty and a badass

      Pretty much.

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    • So Zeno wanted to be friends. How amusing.

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    • Why wouldn't he? Zeno likes that Goku treats him like a normal person.

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    • Yeah. I agree.

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    • I think he's Frieza!

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    • PPrates wrote: I think he's Frieza!

      Sigh...I really hope your joking. Frieza already came back and was killed. Plus we saw that Zamasu's ki is the same as GB's. So it's obvious that Goku Black is none other than the farmer with a shotgun.

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    • Nah, it's obviously Puar.

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    • Puar?......... Hehehehe very funny.

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    • Personally, I think that in another universe, Zamasu fights Goku as per usual, and after the fight with Goku he became so jealous of his powers and thought abou the possibilities, etc and stole the time ring, and somehow tricked goku into fusing with him. He then went into the future to destroy all humans, and all of what happened blah blah now we're here, Black has potra earrings and a time ring, looks exactly like goku and knows about goku.

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    • I think Black is a creation of Zamasu's.

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote: Not a bad theory. Though that goes against what they repeatedly established that Goku is "incorruptible". There isn't a tiny speck of evil in him, as the Devil Mite Beam has shown.

      Though that is one explanation on how Goku came back from the dead.

      Technically, Goku does have some evil in his heart when he transforms into any of his Super Saiyan forms (not any of the God forms).

      Not to mention Goku as a boy he killed a few people before training with Kami. He was also slightly more brutal in the Radditz fight then he was against other DBZ villians. This brutal version of Goku dissappered the same time Akira Toriyama forgot about Launch. But I think the change in Goku was intentional, part of his charecter development. 

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