Talk: Autonomous Ultra Instinct (ability)

Name

Where does the names comes from? I didn't see anything regarding to this new form in DB Heroes. ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 17:59, August 17, 2017 (UTC)

This article is almost entirely speculative, and it needs to be either reworked, renamed or deleted entirely.

-TUN 18:29, August 17, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't know anything about it, the appearance can also be a placeholder as it happened with the blue aura SSG in 2012. The name also comes from nowhere, and it does not appears in DBH. ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 18:56, August 17, 2017 (UTC)

I heard from a video that the form may be referred to as "Mastery of Self-Movement". {{SUBST:User:ZeoSpark/Sig|14:24,10/4/2017}}

It seems Ultra Instinct and Mastery of Self-Movement both refer to Migatte no Goku'i'. Should the pages be merged? Or is this form actually something particular on its own?HN s4mur41 (talk) 05:51, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

People, the official name of this form is Ultra Instinct "Omen", coming from the Dokkan Battle card http://xn--n9jvd7d3d0ad5cwnpcu694dohxad89g.com/archives/21176371.html . The "Omen" part is because it is an imperfect form of the Ultra Instict used by Wiss. The Ultra Instinct itself should be explained in another article. KishinZoro177 (talk) 13:45, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Picture

The picture of the form in the heading should be changed as we didn’t even see that in the anime. We only saw the Blue aura. Dbzfanatic27 (talk) 04:31, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Form and technique

Whis' Ultra Instinct is a technique, while Goku's usage is a transformation. However they are both the same ability, this is quite peculiar. We could have an "Ultra Instinct" page and an "Ultra Instinct Saiyan transformation" page. Though that would be pointless as they are both the same thing. It seems more efficient to simply mention that no transformation occurs when used by an angel, while a Saiyan needs to transform into this state.--Neffyarious (talk) 09:22, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

I recommend keeping this page only to refer to the Saiyan transformation process and the Mastery of Self-Movement one to the technique in general. Since in Dokkan it's treated as a transformation, and it's obviously that Whis is not transformed. ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 13:13, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Neffy you said it best, it is a technique for some and a transformation for another. That is what the article should say, and it does a pretty good job of it right now. What is the conflict then, which infobox to use? -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 14:33, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with keeping it as two separate pages (one for the transformation that allows access to the technique, one for the technique itself). — • Final Chidori • Talk 14:40, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

10X, the conflict is that some people think it should be two separate pages.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:24, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

I actually agree that the page should be split into Ultra Instinct and Ultra Instinct "Omen", the Omen form also gives the user a boost to power and speed, while there is no implication that the Ultra Instinct ability alone does this. Additionally, none of the gods recognized the Omen form, while they certainly knew about the UI ability.--Neffyarious (talk) 18:32, October 13, 2017 (UTC)

Goku's supposed mastery of this state

I think a case can be made that Goku has not mastered it simply because he can't access it on his own (yet). Similarly to SSG, it's a power boost that was granted to him by extraneous circumstances and fizzled out because he couldn't control it.

Orion (T-B-C) 12:33, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Deletion

The page is nothing but speculation with no facts to it whatsoever. It needs deleted or editted and LOCKED. Just because you're a bit excited does NOT mean you should destroy a factual page with dubious lies and speculation. Go to fanon instead because your insufferable stupidity is not needed here. ExyleCage (talk) 14:22, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

The transformation was named in Dokkan Battle and it's a separate thing from the regular Ultra Instinct. ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 14:23, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Again, that's speculation. There's no proof or even suggestion that the two are different, and Dokkan Battle is NOT an official source for names. The show clearly called it Ultra Instinct, meaning its name IS Ultra Instinct. ExyleCage (talk) 14:26, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

I agree, it should be renamed to Ultra Instinct. Dokkan Battle isn't reliable. (Shugesh (talk) 14:50, October 8, 2017 (UTC))

At the moment, it is the most reliable source of information. --KishinZoro177 (talk) 15:59, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Don't see anything that says "Ultra Instinct" and "Ultra Instinct Omen" are separate.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:22, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

As far as I know, Omen is a short-term transformation and Ultra Instinct is a technique/state that Whis is in permanently. The transformation seems to allow access to the use of the state. I think we should keep them separate for simplicity. Maybe we should just create an "Ultra Instinct (Goku)" page.— • Final Chidori • Talk 16:44, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, one is a technique/ability per se, and the other one is a transformation that allows the user to do that technique. ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 16:49, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Nothing says Omen is different as far as I can see. The anime does not mention the technique and transformation as being different. A discussion about whether the page should be split is already going on up ahead.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:58, October 8, 2017 (UTC)

Instead of an article for Goku’s version, why not just have this technique page, and a section in Goku’s techniques or transformations on his article? Two articles just seems inconvenient for something so new with so little info. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 01:54, October 10, 2017 (UTC)

This is literally just a fan/alternate name for Ultra Instinct. Having two pages saying essentially the exact same thing is entirely unnecessary. Kamikaze839 13:56, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

It's not a fan name. ~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 14:36, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Uhh I now realize I was commenting on the Ultra Instinct talk page and not the Ultra Instinct "Omen page". But that just proves my point that it can be confusing for users if that other page is in existence Kamikaze839 14:38, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Hair

i think his hair has some greyish shadow area ? a_tumiwa (talk) 06:07, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

That is almost certainly just highlights from his aura. His hair color does not change. Lightning Laxus (talk) 06:54, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Yah, looks like a white-ish aura with regular hair color. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:27, October 15, 2017 (UTC)

Similarities to Super Saiyan God

In the Battle of Gods movie, Goku received energy from five Saiyans: Gohan, Vegeta, Goten, Trunks, and an unborn Pan, as well as Videl, enabling him to become the Super Saiyan God. In the Tournament of Power, he received energy from all the members of Team Universe 7 (with the obvious exception of Vegeta) to form the Genkidama to use against Jiren. Albeit the technique's failure, being struck by the same Genkidama caused him to "break through the shell" of his potential and allowed him to utilize the Ultra Instinct skill (and by extension, a transformation) for a brief period. Even though this didn't last very long, the way Goku attained this skill was similar to how he achieved the Super Saiyan God transformation: by receiving the energies of his comrades. Since this is so, I have the theory that, should he receive energy from his team once more, he might possibly attain the Ultra Instinct transformation and skill again to battle Jiren at the end of the Tournament of Power. But seeing as there's just under a half hour left, I doubt this would happen. Then again, a lot has happened in mere minutes in this arc, such as the aforementioned Spirit Bomb and Goku using Ultra Instinct against Jiren for the first time. But this is just fan speculation, and we all probably know Goku will find some way to magically defeat an opponent like Jiren.

Kenji-Matsu (talk) 19:43, October 31, 2017 (UTC)

I do agree with you. But please head to the Ultra Instinct "Omen" talk page if you want Super Saiyan God to be added for similar techniques. If you are trying to start a discussion, please go to forums and type it there since this is for discussing changes for a page. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 20:10, October 31, 2017 (UTC)

I personally think it will end up like the movie where Vegeta does not want to contribute the energy at first, but do so during the finale to end up the fight. We know that this current arc has many references from the movies. Just my theory though. ConTraZ VII (talk) 03:15, November 1, 2017 (UTC)

Name (again)

Yeah, why are you changing it from the official name used in all English sources? Shugesh (talk) 22:56, January 2, 2018 (UTC)

More accurate translation. Plus, sounds cooler SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 22:59, January 2, 2018 (UTC)

It's also from a far more official source than Dokkan Battle, which is what made up that shitty name. ExyleCage (talk) 00:39, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

The name "Ultra Instinct -Sign-" has also been used in official merchandise from Bandai . "Omen" is nothing more than a fan translated term. SuperJuggie (talk) 9:25, January 4, 2018 (UTC)

Technique name

Where from this stupid shitty name comes from?! How the heck is "Migatte no Gokui" was translated in "Ultra Instinct"?--Date 14:33, January 6, 2018 (UTC)

Because "Key of egoism" sounds ridiculous in English. It might sound cool to a Japanese person who has all the necessary cultural understanding to be able to contextualize it, but for everyone else, it's just stupid.

Orion (T-B-C) 14:46, January 6, 2018 (UTC)

It's totally not. Moreover - "Ultra Instinct" sounds extremely stupid. "Secret/Key of Egoism" it's a name of the technique - what rights are you have to change it? And it's even not oficial. Moreover - it's freakin' Japanese cartoon! It's MEANT to be for Japanese in situations like names! It's a part of a culture.--Date 14:55, January 6, 2018 (UTC)

It totally is, and "Ultra Instinct" sounds a lot better than "Key of Egoism". What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Ultra Instinct describes the way the user's body is acting on instinct alone.

I have no rights to change it, that change was made by the English dub. If you prefer being a weeaboo and only pronouncing and writing Japanese words as they do in Japan, that's your choice. I'd rather have things that make sense, as opposed to having to learn an entire new language and culture just so "Key of Egoism" starts to make sense.

Orion (T-B-C) 14:59, January 6, 2018 (UTC)

1. Technique principe has nothing to do with instincts. 2. You are much more of a weeaboo - watching japanese cartoon with a localisation is much more relevant to "weeaboo" word meaning. 3. Where? Where is this English dub that gave that "Ultra Instinct" name to a technique?--Date 15:15, January 6, 2018 (UTC)

Just a quick reminder: yes this is a cartoon for Japanese people, but it’s also been subbed and dubbed and is a cartoon for English-speaking (and other) people. This website is obviously for the English-speaking audience. We have a sister-site Japanese-language DB Wiki. Not saying who is right or wrong here, just adding some context. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:57, January 7, 2018 (UTC)

Translating 極意/goku'i as "mastery" might be a stretch but I think it conveys the idea (of the deepest level of a skill) better than "secret" or "key". 身勝手/migatte typically means "selfish" but here seems to be a pun on the body (身) moving on its own (勝手). As I see it, the direct translation as "key of egoism" should be superseded by "mastery of self-movement", as it was before. Ultra Instinct is just fine as it's the official dub name. HN s4mur41 (talk) 03:56, January 20, 2018 (UTC)

"gokui" is not only deepest level of a skill, but also a secret, hidden knowledge. Your pun assumption is very fetched. And there is no English dub of this episodes - how the hell "Ultra Instinct" is official? Show me the official if you think that it exist.--Date 10:58, January 20, 2018 (UTC)

For those that do understand Japanese, migatte's obviously a pun. By the way, that's what I've just added with more details in the main article. This is one of those ridiculous pun that Dragon Ball is littered with since the beginning. Remember that Gohan literally means "To eat" and Trunks as in the undergarment... Toriyama never meant for Dragon Ball to be serious or cool but to be comical and enjoyable. Xinyingho (talk) 17:25, February 25, 2018 (UTC)

Totally fetched nonsense. And what's on that "cool" mentioning?--Date 17:31, February 25, 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing nonsensical about what Xinyingho stated. The pun is obvious and the translation as being more easily understood as "mastery of self-movement" is likewise correct. I don't see why you have a problem with this. -KidVegeta (talk) 17:51, February 25, 2018 (UTC)

As the official translation is already "Ultra Instinct", I think that the more correct translation of Migatte no Gokui that should appear in the articles should be "the secret of the body [moving] on its own" instead of "Key of Egoism", which is a bad literal translation. The Japanese wording is impossible to render into English in a cool way, so let's just stick to an academic translation instead of trying to do a good sounding but misleading translation.

By the way, I added a last point to the trivia section that explains why it's so hard to translate Migatte no Gokui into English. That's what I was referring to earlier when I wrote about the main article. Xinyingho (talk) 19:57, February 25, 2018 (UTC)

Date, it's an official translation. You can watch it from Crunchyroll. It's official. We use official titles. ConTraZ VII (talk) 08:56, February 26, 2018 (UTC)

I developped the translation point in the trivia section into itw own section, partly to prove my point about why "Key of Egoism" is a bad translation as nobody that encounters it in the wild for the first time will even understand what it's related to. I don't know why people in this wikia settled for this bad literal translation but I won't try to edit the opening of this article as somebody came to undo it last time I tried. "Mastery of self-movement" isn't so bad but doesn't feel natural to an English speaker as well IMHO. Xinyingho (talk) 10:53, February 27, 2018 (UTC)

The lede is supposed to have a literal translation, as opposed to a perfect one, and literal translations always miss the nuances of language. That's why your edit was reverted. You had no reason to create an entire section dedicated to "proving your point", unless your goal was to seem smart (and fail miserably, since you don't seem to understand what a literal translation entails).

Orion (T-B-C) 11:43, February 27, 2018 (UTC)

Also, you don't even know what transliteration means. I'll give you a hint: it's not a literal translation.

Orion (T-B-C) 11:44, February 27, 2018 (UTC)

Ok, it's true I misused the term transliteration. I just didn't spend time to see how to properly label each step towards a proper translation. I didn't want to sound smart or what not, I just want to show the details to those that don't understand why this Japanese term is indeed difficult to translate and how we ended up with "Ultra Instinct".

And you really don't have to use this condescending tone with me. I'm just here to discuss with people. I still think that "Key of Egoism" is a bad translation, literal or not. If you think otherwise, you can simply explain to me why it's the better one over every other proposition. Xinyingho (talk) 12:51, February 27, 2018 (UTC)

I think we should keep the name of Ultra Instinct the same.Rogeta234 (talk) 01:17, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

It’s the English name so it should be changed to what it is called in the English version. So we can leave ultra instinct as an alternate name. The rules state that English names of certain characters, places, abilities or techniques should be kept first if available. So I’m going according to the rules. (Sosuagwu17 (talk) 16:11, May 13, 2019 (UTC))

Yet another name

Autonomous Ultra Instinct is a new name, but are there any other sources for it replacing Ultra Instinct? I suspect this is a lazy attempt to fix the lip flaps for "Migatte no Gokui", and that the ability name is the same as it always was. Since this is the only source we have (especially since the episode name does not have Autonomous), are we sure it's safe to assume this isn't a one-time thing? We'll probably find out next week, and see if Freiza calls it the same thing. If that happens, do we simply say that Autonomous Ultra Instinct is the true full name, or that it's simply an alternative name? Professor-Heavy (talk) 20:27, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

That should be it's alternate name. Who knows, they might just use the regular name in future episodes.Rogeta234 (talk) 21:16, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

From the looks of things, Autonomous Ultra Instinct is the true dub name, whilst Ultra Instinct can simply be used as an alternative name. Tad upsetting, but from the looks of things, that's what it is. Professor-Heavy (talk) 16:25, May 19, 2019 (UTC)

Rename

This ability of the Ultra Instinct Sign and Perfected Ultra Instinct states is simply referred to as "Dodge", I suggest this ability be renamed something along the lines of "Dodge (Ultra Instinct)", since Autonomous Ultra Instinct refers to all aspects of it - it's reflexes, power, ki manipulation, hardening of the body etc. Neffyarious (talk) 01:34, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I thought that name was only used in Xenoverse 2. DragonEmeperor (talk) 02:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

• That is correct. Neffyarious (talk) 11:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC)