This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Turles article.
Turles in Dragon Ball Online
Note: This is mostly directed at a certain anonymous user. However, anyone's free to reply.
I have yet to see any proof that Turles is going to be in the game. I want some solid proof. And I don't mean "but he's on the article's page!" I'm getting tired of people putting false information in this Wiki without verifying it. My biggest concern is that Akira Toriyama is overseeing the project himself which more than likely means filler characters or movie characters won't be appearing. For this reason, saying Turles is going to be in it isn't like saying Piccolo or Goku is in the game. That aside, we DO have proof of not only Piccolo, Goku, and Trunks will be in the game, but we also have Vegeta, as WELL as Raditz. Yet, there has been NO proof of Turles being anywhere NEAR Dragon Ball Online. I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE, giving the fickleness of time travel. Just not very likely.
Now I ask you, albeit slightly agitated... You show me Turles or you kindly stop saying "he'll be there".17:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
relation to Kakarot
Depending on the dub, Turles is stated to be goku's brother,should we in some way state this? --Silver Sinspawn 05:55, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
- Any lore is worth noting if it can be cited, but this character is more about artistry. He represents alternative history, the might-have-been saiyan warrior Goku, and that's really all there is to say about it. And of course that's why he's popular and cool. 18.104.22.168 20:41, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
- I have a theory on why Turles looks like Goku. as Bardock was sent through time and faced Chilled Freiza's Grandfather he had another son. thich is turles. i know this is most likely unconnon but so is the movie the tree of might (i think as i cant place it anywhere in the DBZ Series). what do poeple think? - Vigilante_SA
One game uses this name for a technique Vegeta uses. Another uses it for a different technique which Turles uses. Since they are from equally valid sources, please do not remove the technqiue from this page, lest we give favor to one game over another. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 12:30, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
- No,The Meteor burst is just a name in the game. The actual Technique is the Pulse Drive. The Meteor Burst is a technique used by Vegeta. The Link leads to a page with NO information about turles. The proper page has the correct info --Silver Sinspawn 18:46, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
Legitimate references are more highly regarded on encyclopedic sources like this one than other non-referencing pages, like some on this site. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:49, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
where is it
where is the trivia my favorite char has no trivia
why does it matter? Turles is too awesome to have trivia.... --Silver Sinspawn 05:04, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
good point lol
I wonder if Turles and Vegeta know each other, and if so who do you guys think will win if they fought? 22.214.171.124 05:34, June 12, 2010 (UTC)
Is there a reason they call Him Raditz in the swedish dub? Also, what do they call Raditz in the swedish dub?
New infobox imageI think this picture looks really cool, plus its a full body shot, which is always prefered here. Finally the pose fits Turles' personallity perfectly, with the cockyness and such. Kikoho-sama 21:24, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
Turles Development Citation?
"Toei Animation stated that Turles's physical similarities to Goku are not coincidental, and that Turles was intended as an alternate version of him."
Can anyone varify where this comes from? Both out of curiosity and I feel that things like this should be cited.
126.96.36.199 07:38, August 31, 2012 (UTC)Zet
One of the very few things that help to tell Goku and Turles apart is their slight difference in hairstyle, which Turles is given at least two 'devil horns'. The thing is, don't you think it should be mentioned somewhere that for some reason, his horns were excluded for his appearance in 'Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans'. In every other appearance, Turles still has them.188.8.131.52 11:39, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering if anyone was going to add Turles' personality to this page.(184.108.40.206 22:21, December 23, 2012 (UTC))
Has anyone ever actually explained how Turles came across the seed of the Tree of Might?
If so, then it should probably be added to his biography.
Ok Bardock ssj2 says that Turles's armor sometimes shows up purple. I asked him where when I undone his edit and notified him to use the talk page he left a message on my talk page instead of her. My question was where does it show up purple. He also clearly does not follow the rules since he edited the page again after leaving a message on my talk page.
- I think it is gray, and only looks purple in certain lighting. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:23, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
- Turles armor is seen purple in lightining areas, but sometimes also in dark areas (For example the first picture on the Turles page. Bardock ssj2 (talk) 08:05, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
- His armor is always grey it shows up purple in certain lighting. His armor never appears purple.
May we have a link on all information about him in "Concept..." topic? Especially on information about alternate version of Goku.--Date 08:14, November 22, 2015 (UTC)
About the 'brother' thing
If we're going to include that, then we should at least include Raditz as a sibling.
Yes he does need to be added, also.. it was stated Raditz was Gines oldest and Kakarot her youngest they being her only children, meaning that Tullece was from a different mother and older than Raditz. FlatZone (talk) 10:40, July 28, 2018 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Raditz was several years older than Goku, that means Turles could be a middle child. We dont have any order to go on with Turles in the birth order.
Considering a Saiyan is in the Tube up until their 3rd birthday according to Dragon Ball Minus, Raditz was shown to be about Vegeta's age(5), so 4-6yrs older than Goku. So maybe Turles is a full sibling.. but then again its unlikely considering Gine only speaks of Raditz and Kakarot, and in the Bardock anime movie, Bardock tells Fasha his kid was born a long time ago and only kid he would not remember that long ago would be Turles as he is said to have already been a first rate warrior by the time Goku was born.
" The Supplemental Daizenshuu adds that when Goku was born, Turles should have already been a first-rate warrior. Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 states he used to work for the Saiyan Army under Frieza before leaving him to found his own group and it is implied by Nappa and Raditz that he was apparently sent away on some secret mission, presumably before he chose to abandon the Saiyan Army and set out on his own. Vegeta also states that he was a troublemaker who never learned to obey his superiors, thus implying that he was insubordinate soldier during his time in the Saiyan Army.  Turles had presumably already left Planet Vegeta on his own accord long before it was destroyed by Frieza though Raditz and Nappa attribute his survival due to being on his secret mission at the time, thus presumably the secrecy of his mission was well as the Genocide of the Saiyans may allowed him to go off on his own, though its also possible that they simply assumed he was still in the process of completing it when Planet Vegeta was destroyed, unaware that he used the mission's secrecy to desert the Saiyan Army. "
Tullece is most likely Bardocks oldest child. Gines oldest child is Raditz.. but until we have more on that we can say that Tullece was born about a year after Raditz at the most. FlatZone (talk) 12:36, July 28, 2018 (UTC)
Lets not forget the family tree thing that listed Turles as not related to either Raditz or Goku. Also you guys should check this out http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/07/26/akira-comment-toriyama-translation-rumor-guide-update-november-1991-v-jump/--Hulk10 And the idea that Bardock would sire a child with someone either than Gine is ludicrous, as we know that he and Gine had an unusual bond. (talk) 18:08, July 28, 2018 (UTC)
Pages like Son family now have Turles on them but note that other sources don't refer to him as a family member. I'm aware Kanzenshuu considers the Turles being Goku's brother as an error by V-Jump, but that's just there opinion. --Neffyarious (talk) 18:17, July 28, 2018 (UTC)
The exact same source then says that Goku and Turles aren't brothers and they're resemblance is a coincidence due to being low class Saiyans. (" Furthermore, Saiyans are forcibly raised differently based on their rank, so those of the same rank come to have the same face. Tullece, one of the surviving Saiyans, was also originally a low-ranking warrior. That’s why his face is the spitting image of Goku, who was also a low-ranking warrior. ") This isn't up for interpretation. It's wrong and not worth citing unless it's speficially to point out an error. —This unsigned comment was made by Jjgp1112 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
No, it was Kanzenshuu themselves saying it was an error, not the article.. and Toriyama retconned the lower class saiyans look alike thing in Dragon Ball Minus, with Bardock being the first with his unique look. Meaning any who have it after him are his children and their children etc. Tullece may very well be his child, but leaving that in the trivia section is better anyay. FlatZone (talk) 14:33, July 31, 2018 (UTC)
DBZ Movie 7's film comic, which chame out AFTER the V-Jump issue, puts Turles seperate from the Son Family Tree. Put this overly complicate dnonsense to rest (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/rumors/saiyajin_family_trees-small.jpg?x32666)Jjgp1112 (talk) 01:01, August 8, 2018 (UTC)
I honestly think it's BS that we're forcing Turles to be Goku's brother over some incorrect source, when it has time and time again been stated by official sources that they have no relation. I don't understand why we're clinging onto one faulty source, when no other source states the same thing. To give an example, official Pokémon guides have accidentally listed regular Pokémon as Legendaries. According to you guys, those would forever be considered Legendary, whether or not it was stated otherwise in every other source. Mistakes happen, even in official sources. It doesn't mean we need to base a whole article over one. Just a little common sense could see the source was wrong. BlackDragon 00:04, August 13, 2018 (UTC)
I'm not really sure. It's sourced so it could be true, yet they're other sources that say he isn't. Since many viewers think it's a wrong source, how about we just take it out of the infobox. We can put somewhere else in the article, and say that according to one source he is Goku's brother. How does that idea sound? Thanks EH28 (talk) 00:23, August 13, 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be opposed to putting something like this in the trivia section, saying according to one source, Turles is listed as Goku's brother, while in every other source he is listed an having no relation. Putting it in the infobox makes it look like an unchallenged fact, and spreads misinformation. Not to mention everyone is speculated whether it's Bardock's kid or not, and it's getting way to head-canon for my taste. BlackDragon 16:58, August 13, 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, since it's truthfulness is so debated over I think the trivia is the best place for it to be. It could also be in the history section to, and say according to a source he's Goku's brother. The trivia section is probably still the best place for it though. You could contact an admin about the idea. Thanks EH28 (talk) 01:13, August 14, 2018 (UTC)
Or how about we keep it in the infobox and add a Trivia point that the information is disputed by other sources? I don't see how removing it from the infobox, given that it's sourced information, can do anything except appease those who think they dictate canon.
I'd like to point out that in Dragon Ball Super: Broly several of the female Saiyan researchers in the background of the scene where King Vegeta finds out about Broly's abnormal power readings that suggest he's stronger than Prince Vegeta are identical to Nion the female scientist who suggests Broly might be the Legendary Super Saiyan which given that non-combatants such as scientists are low class warriors would fit with the suggestion there isn't much variation in appearance between members of the lower class. However I do have to acknowledge that it may simply have been the animators reusing her character model for the background characters (however the explanation could still be considered canon as it would give the animators and manga artists like Toyotarō a convenient in-universe explaination for such cost saving measures in addition to it explaining why Turles' resemblance to Goku yet still be unrelated members of the same race).RaphBlade7 (talk) 18:54, February 10, 2020 (UTC)
- No. Sometimes the infobox breaks from certain edits for some reason. DragonEmeperor (talk) 04:42, January 26, 2019 (UTC)
So little confused here, we listed him as part of the Son family because a single line in an only interview in a questionable book said so, although tons of other OFFICIAL states say otherwise. It needs to be remvoed and added to trivia. If we are told, "yea they are family once", but "no they are not" dozens of times, why did we decide to go with the oddity over the, apparently, official answer?
On top of that, right in the Apperance section it mentions them only looking alike because all low class sayians do. So why keep the confusing information listed in the info box (again, even after being official told its wrong for years) but not awknowledge it at all in the text of the article? Heartlesslove93 (talk) 04:41, February 14, 2019 (UTC)
Remove Goku’s Family Tree
They are not related by blood, it was an error. How do you edit the reference list?
One incorrect source should most definitely not be listed when there are many other sources stating otherwise, and official sources stating it was an error.Chrome0X (talk) 22:40, February 16, 2019 (UTC)
Kanzenshuu themselves are saying they think it is an error. After this it has been retconned, so the source is valid. It needs to be moved to trivia instead of the infobox though. FlatZone (talk) 23:10, February 16, 2019 (UTC)
I don't think quoting Kanzenshuu as a source helps your case, considering how there is a constant insecurity here with regards to the site, Herms and TDC. Of course they won't budge when you tell people who are constantly derided by most DBZ news outlets that those who deride them are in the right. So instead, I'd just argue using common knowledge. ONE of the two sources stating that Turles is Goku's brother is the DBZ French dub, known for its errors in translation, which most other European dubs, including the Big Green Dub, based themselves on. What credibility does this wikia have when you give credit to what is said IN THE FRENCH DUB?! David Kibasennin (talk) 23:56, February 16, 2019 (UTC)
This wiki simply compiles what is said by official sources, without passing judgement, as a true encyclopedia should. The statement is sourced, whether you like it or not.
If you have an admission of error from the same official source that said Turles was Goku's brother, then feel free to present it, and the statement will be moved to the trivia section. Otherwise, the sourced statement will remain.
Compiling incorrect information should not be what this wiki is okay with if it is to be a credible source for DB info it should be absolutely correct with no exceptions. If the source is listed to be incorrect by an equally credible source and directly contested by several other confirmed sources including the movie itself, it should be removed and placed into the trivia section. Chrome0X (talk) 00:35, February 17, 2019 (UTC)
An incorrect statement contradicted by official statements later on should be moved to the Trivia, not left on the info box like fact. Why does the fact he was said to be family, from a very shaky source, over ride numerous later statements saying otherwise? Thats the real issue here. The fact you want to use that source, but ignore later just as official sources saying otherwise just shows that this wiki is going down hill and cares little for showing correct information. Heartlesslove93 (talk) 00:55, February 17, 2019 (UTC)
Check Wikipedia's "Verifiability, not truth" article. This wiki operates on the same principle, just as a true encyclopedia should. The statement is sourced, so it has a reference attached. It's the same as saying "According to this source, (...)".
This isn’t Wikipedia, so don’t use their rules on this site. This site follows its own rules which state: “In in-universe sections, there are several sources of information that can be used. They are arranged in order of authoritativeness. If a more authoritative source directly conflicts with a less authoritative source, the more authoritative source is used, and a separate side note should be made about the conflict.” This is directly from the MoS here, Turles is not Goku’s brother and should only be listed as such in the trivia section as a side note. Chrome0X (talk) 17:00, February 18, 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Chrome. "several sources of information that can be used." is important. Certain people think that cross information coming from several sources is wrong, and obviously they haven't been payin attention to the MoS. That applies to LSS, SSGSS and SS4 pages too, along with Turles no longer being related to Goku. FlatZone (talk) 20:50, February 18, 2019 (UTC)
I’m having a hard time understanding why this was even a debate, we have far more credible and confirmed sources, directly proving this wrong, and Kanzenshuu itself tells you this is an error on V-Jumps part. Why was this even allowed to stay part of the page without someone flagging it?
- Do you guys really think one fan (Herms) disagreeing with published media counts for anything? Opnions don’t count. Only published media, since this is an encyclopedia. Like Orion Invictus said, encyclopedias compile source information without roping in fan opinions. I bet if Herms said Goku can’t fly, you’d want that changed here too. That’s an extreme example, but I wanted to illustrate the bad argument you’re making. We must not include fan opinions over published source media. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 15:41, February 20, 2019 (UTC)
This isn’t an encyclopedia, this is Dragonball.fandom.com and it has its own rules, so stop assuming it’s the same as Wikipedia. It wasn’t only Herms(whom is a Kanzenshuu admin) it was the fact that the movie is ranked above the V-Jump in canonicity weight and clearly says they ARE NOT related. This site is one that chronicles correct information, not any and everything. Chrome0X (talk) 00:11, February 21, 2019 (UTC)
It's from an official source so it stays on the appropriate part of the page. There is no official proof that this was an error, contradictions from other guides does not mean it is, DB media is always contradicting itself. This has been explained before. We don't mention that other sources don't blood relate them because that kinda info does not go in infobox. --Neffyarious (talk) 20:51, February 24, 2019 (UTC)
The MoS says that if a more authoritative source conflicts with an less authoritative source we take what the more credible source said. Why is this any different? Chrome0X (talk) 22:15, March 8, 2019 (UTC)
The sources aren’t of equal weight though.
•Tree of Might: Turles says they only look alike because they are disposable lowclass warriors.
Bardock asks about Goku then Raditz but none others because there are none.
Nappa asks Raditz about his brother and Raditz responds about Kakarot being sent off world, no mention of any other brother.
Sources contradict each other all the time in that sense though, Turles clearly does not exist in Broly, in the sense way that Cooler does not exist, otherwise we'd have to remove Cooler as being Frieza's brother. In the case of Tree of Might it could be Turles assuming that was why they were alike (later sources say Bardock/Goku look distinct from other low-classes), like how Shin assumed Bibidi created Buu (when he actually did not). --Neffyarious (talk) 11:28, March 9, 2019 (UTC)
Can you just remove the brother thing? its quite clearly an error and makes no sense to put him in goku family tree. if pretty much every source says their not related. seriously only one source says their brothers(turles himself never said goku and him where siblings) why is this still a debate. Not to mention a double standard. Shin the science guy (talk) 16:30, March 9, 2019 (UTC)Shin the science guy
I understand not applying personal opinions to the page but we have several sources directly contradicting this one source that outweigh it in canonicity. Will the page still remain the same even with this? Chrome0X (talk) 19:13, March 10, 2019 (UTC)
I'm looking at it from this perspective. It's common knowledge that Turles isn't Goku's brother. Neffyarious you said it yourself.
When a newcomer comes to this wiki, first DB wiki that Google offers up, what are they gonna see? Turles is Goku's brother. Most of them won't notice the little (source) symbol next to it, most of them won't scroll down to understand that he technically isn't, and it was a piece of information that was retconned, which to us, again, is common knowledge. NOBODY notices that little (source) symbol next to Turles' name on the pages of Goku's family, casual wiki users don't click to read the sources, they just read up the info and move on. And sure, you're referencing it down below, but that's basically putting an asterisk* next to it, and hoping somebody is interested enough to follow through.
What they'll see is Goku's entire family tree, and assume that he's indeed Goku's brother, when he clearly isn't.
I know that's what they'll see because I got involved in this topic when I casually was looking at Turles' page, scrolled down, noticed the 'Relatives' section, noticed Goku, and literally went like this: "Goku's his brother. Cool. Hm. Hm. Wait. WHAT?! *scrolling back up* His brother?! They counted the French Dub as canon?!"
Now I scrolled up because I only later realized that what I had just read was inaccurate. But there was two seconds where I read it and moved on. And I already knew that Turles and Goku aren't brothers! Imagine a non-die-hard fan. That scrolling back up doesn't happen to the casual wiki newcomer who literally just comes here for info. This is 'Trivia' level info: "hey, fun fact, according to one source and the French dub, he's actually Goku's brother. Cool, right?" THAT'S IT. We as fans always knew this bit of info as a tidbit and nothing else. Putting them as brothers in the relatives section basically cements what was no more than a retconned piece of trivia, for most. Technically, no, it's sourced, it's good. But VISUALLY, it totally is.
Say what you will about Herms, Kanzenshuu, etc, that their info is more accurate yada yada, their site doesn't immediately pop up when you type "Dragon Ball" in Google. This wiki on the other hand is guaranteed its place on the first results page. With great power comes great emeffing responsibility, and you have a responsibility to make sure newcomers and casual fans get the right goddamn information, not just documenting it. And right now they aren't getting the right information, not by your design, but by not making it clear enough.
And sure, you've covered your butts by saying that "hey, we technically have one-one and a half sources confirming it, and we did reference it, so we're morally clear" but that's not right and you know it. If you're not gonna remove the damn family tree, at least put a large "ACCORDING TO ONE RETCONNED SOURCE" sign on top of it, or instead of writing just (Brother) write (Brother, see Trivia) or (Brother, According to 1 source). That will indeed kinda defeat the point of sourcing it, but at least the danger of somebody getting the wrong info out of it is removed.
Well since it is an offical source, I don't think it should be removed. But if it's a single source that is stating this and seeing how much hostilitiy there is at this from the community. I think its important to note the name of the source as well in the article, that states this. So that fans can decide for themselves if they want to accept it or not, but not remove it at the same time. 0551E80Y (talk) 06:38, March 24, 2019 (UTC)
If it's not gonna be removed, at least make the fact that it's literally the ONLY source in 30 years that states it's the case more visible than just a source symbol that most of the page's visitors won't scroll down to.
Holy crap people this isn't hard. The old outdated info claiming he is part of the family that has been contradicted by every peice of info since should just be put in the trivia and removed from the info boxes. That way we display correct info, like an encycopedia should, with interesting trivia at the bottom. It is interesting that original a source said they were family. The fact is been contradicted 100% of the time afterwards by far more credible sources should tell you something. Heartlesslove93 (talk) 04:06, May 22, 2019 (UTC)
Screw it, dude, they made a glaringly obvious bad call, and won't go back on it because doing so would be admitting it's a ridiculous idea, and they don't wanna look stupid. David Kibasennin (talk) 20:57, June 3, 2019 (UTC)
Turles is not Goku's brother
People saw this context from a V-Jump Magazine and believed Turles is Goku's brother.
It is actually an error when multiple Toei magazines indicates that Turles is, in fact, from a different family (https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/characters/#tullece). —This unsigned comment was made by DarthSaiyan8697 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
This has been discussed thoroughly. There is no source that indicates that this is an error, there are conflicting sources which are acknowledged (as they always are, many sources in DB contradict other sources). --Neffyarious (talk) 19:26, November 29, 2019 (UTC)
- Whether or not later sources contradict this source, the fact that this is an official source that stated that Turles is indeed Goku's brother, we add it and take it into consideration regardless if most people agree that Turles is not Goku's brother. Any information that is official is accepted here regardless if later or other sources contradict the said source because the Dragon Ball Wiki accepts any information related to Dragon Ball as long as it is an official source or comes from an official source. The fact that this official source stated that Goku and Turles are brothers should not be denied or removed. And like Neffyarious said there is no source that stated that this source was an error. (Sosuagwu17 (talk) 19:36, November 29, 2019 (UTC))
Like I said before, before he fell for Gine Bardock gave zero shits if he had any kids or family members and Toriyama and Gine herself confirmed this about Saiyans so Bardock could have had sex and cared less about the other Saiyan woman getting pregnant and then left for more missions. Turles was supposed to have been a full fledged Saiyan Warrior out on a secret mission by himself by the time Goku was born. Meaning he could easily be Bardocks son, but Bardock doesn't know and probably didn't care. There is also Gines comment of how Bardocks hair and facial features are unique(canon info from Toriyama himself). So in reality only Turles, Kakarot and Goten share the looks and hair style from Bardock although Turles has an addition of "Devil Horns" and his skin is more pale.. what is the link here?? They are all descended from Bardock. FlatZone (talk) 17:46, November 30, 2019 (UTC)
Oh I see, so I think we should fix a little information as:
Turles - relatives:
Goku (Half-younger brother)
More on the "brother" controversy
The argument constantly used to keep Goku's family tree on this page is that an official source, even if outdated, is still an official source. The one thing I don't understand about this is that later sources have claimed that there is no blood relation between Turles and Goku, so shouldn't these sources be seen with the same credibility? For example, take the Vegito retcon. Originally, the potara earrings were meant to fuse their users for eternity. This was the official statement, and was viewed as canon. In Dragon Ball Super, however, this detail was changed, and now the fusion only lasts for around an hour. While both of these are from official sources, new information overwrites old information, so only the new rules should be seen as canon. With Turles, there was one blurp in V-Jump's November 1991 issue which stated he was Goku's older brother. Another official source, a film comic released a few months later, in 1992, shows Vegeta's and Goku's family trees, placing Turles completely separate from both of them, showing that he has no relation to Goku, Bardock, or Raditz. This information was released later, and as such its information should be seen as canon.
Yes, a source states that Turles is Goku's brother. A later source states that he is not. This is known as a retcon.
The logic used to argue that this relationship should stay in the bio follows the idea that if something is claimed to be canon, it will always be canon. While Shueisha never went out and said "Hey, this information we published was wrong," later sources stated opposing information. If both sources exist, and Turles is claimed to both be Goku's brother and not his brother, shouldn't the most recent (and abundant) sources be the ones determining what we write on this wiki? The relationship should simply be in Trivia with information about conflicting sources, and removed from the biography. -Westyb (talk) 23:22, May 17, 2020 (UTC)
As has been noted above both sources are valid, so we consider Turles Goku's brother, but we also consider him to not be Goku's brother. However in the family section we don't put "Turles (brother/not brother)" because not brother is not a familial relation - instead the source mentions that other sources say he's not Goku's brother, and his background also notes this, as well as the family page itself.
It's not the same as the Potara thing, since that's directly addressed and explained in story. Here we have two conflicting sources - pretty common with Dragon Ball - and we can't bias one over the other. --Neffyarious (talk) 23:48, May 17, 2020 (UTC)
Whether it's explained in the story or not, a retcon is still a retcon, and new information should be seen as true. Having a source that says "more recent sources disprove this" is rhetorical, as disproven information should just not be present at all, except for in Trivia. More importantly, official Dragon Ball media, being Xenoverse 2 and Dragon Ball Fusions, show that there is no familial relation. The amount of information in Trivia stating that the relationship simply doesn't exist should show that the section should not be in his bio.
The claim that you can't bias one over another, is true as per this wiki's rules. However, there is a clear bias towards a source which has been disproven. A wiki is meant to present users with the current, updated information on a topic, and Turles being shown as Goku's brother is not the current information. I might understand more if the publishers of each source were different, but Shueisha, the company which printed the image stating Turles is Goku's brother, is also the company which later printed the Saiyan family tree showing that he is not related. The source itself has gone back on their statement, so it shouldn't be treated as relevant information. -Westyb (talk) 00:05, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Westyb. We have a one scan from nearly 30 years ago claiming Goku is Turles' brother. We have more recent sources that indicate he's not. Yet this article still has Goku, Raditz, Bardock, Chi-Chi, Gohan, Goten, Pan, and Goku Jr. in the "relatives" section of his infobox. That's really misleading to casual readers. I don't think most people would check the reference and see the "Most other sources refer to them as being unrelated" footnote at the bottom. I'm not saying we should outright remove it from the article (our job is to archive every source, after all), but a highly contested fact like this doesn't belong in the infobox. This is like putting "Brilliant Scientist" under Bardock's occupation because of what Vegeta said in the Ocean dub. — 02:27, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
It's not the same as brilliant scientist Bardock since we ignore dubbing errors. This is a Japanese source equally valid to others of it's kind, and the information in question relates to familial relations, hence it would go in the appropriate section on family rather than Trivia would it not? Should we move Bardock Father of Goku to Trivia since Minus is more recent and contradicts it? Or should it stay in Film appearances since that's what it is? --Neffyarious (talk) 10:58, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
Bardock: Father of Goku would obviously stay in Film Appearances because it's a film. There hasn't been any info stating that it is not a film, so it will stay there. For Turles, on the other hand, there is information stating that he is not related to Goku, albeit from the same source who originally stated he was. Leaving outdated information in the infobox is misleading to people reading the wiki, and removes credibility from all pages with Goku's family listed. -Westyb | (talk) 11:23, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
I wasn't saying it's not a film, I was saying that since it's a film the appropriate section for it is film appearances rather than trivia - even though it's contradicted by a newer source. Turles being related is family info, so goes in the appropriate section rather than Trivia.
Chidori's point about sources not being looked at by casuals is fair, we could change it from "(brother)" to "(brother, or unrelated)" with both sources attached to make it clearer.--Neffyarious (talk) 11:45, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
While changing it to that would be better than nothing, it is still misleading. That picture is the only official source claiming Turles and Goku has brothers, as mistranslations in dubs don't reflect the source material. There is no point in including what one, extremely outdated and disproven source says in the infobox. I understand wanting to present readers with all of the details, but that's why there's a trivia section. --Westyb | (talk) 12:00, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
It's official so it's not misleading. It's never been directly addressed as wrong so it's not disproven.
It just conflicts with other sources, very common for Dragon Ball, take Super Saiyan for example: it's 10x stronger than the Saiyan's base form, but it's also 50x stronger, and it's also 2.5x stronger - depending on the source - they all get addressed in the appropriate section, rather than two of them being thrown in Trivia. --Neffyarious (talk) 16:03, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
If this is the verdict for the time being, then I'll go ahead and change his lineage to have "potential" in each title, similar to your earlier suggestion, so readers aren't confused. --Westyb | (talk) 22:06, May 18, 2020 (UTC)
- I still think it should be completely removed from the infobox. As far as I know there's only that single official source claiming Turles is Goku's brother, and it's almost certainly an error made by Shueisha considering nothing is said about that during the film and it contradicts a more recent official source (also by Shueisha). Does anyone here think honestly think the statement *wasn't* made erroneously? Of course, error or not it still should be documented in the article as it's a valid source, but it's certainly not infobox material. Infoboxes are meant to show accurate and concise facts, this is misleading clutter. — 01:45, May 19, 2020 (UTC)
I agree that it should be removed from the infobox. It's not like the info isn't being acknowledged, it's in the trivia. But given that 99% of sources state they aren't related, whereas this one source states they are, this is actually biasing this one source and giving it priority. It will cause a lot of confusion to readers who will take this as the main information. Stryzzar 01:58, May 19, 2020 (UTC)
- It's official information so I can understand why it is there but I've never been a fan of it being there, it's obviously caused a lot of confusion just from what we can see above nevermind any casual readers who may stumble upon it.
- If we don't remove it entirely and add the information to trivia we should still change something with it. Whether we leave it as is on this page but remove the connection on other characters pages like Gohan's and Bardock's, maybe adding trivia in its place or like Neff suggested and put (Unrelated/Brother) with two different sources but again still maybe remove it from all other characters pages (except arguably Goku).
- This is one of those matters where it's probably better to just not confuse people than include a source even if it is official.
02:34, May 19, 2020 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if we all think it's an error, that's just our opinion as fans, no later source has come out and referred to it as an error. The family section of the infobox is supposed to list every family member, and since we consider every official source it would be wrong to not put it there. I definitely agree with putting something like (Unrelated or Brother) instead of just (Brother) anyhow. --Neffyarious (talk) 12:41, May 19, 2020 (UTC)
- Shueisha doesn't really need to outright say "this was error". The fact that no other official source has referenced them as brothers, including the family tree guide Shueisha released a year after saying they're not brothers, means it's most certainly an error. Apparently, the Capsule Corp ship Goku flew to Namek had "CPSULE CORP" on the side of it during a scene in the anime. As far as I know, Toei never came out and referred to this as an animation error. Are we wrong for not putting "CPSULE CORP" in the alternate names for the infobox of the ship? In my opinion, no - because it's pretty obviously an error and putting it in the infobox would confuse people. I can't see why the same wouldn't apply here.
- If we absolutely must keep it in, I like the suggestion of using "Unrelated/Brother" on this page and Goku's and removing the connections from all the other pages. — 05:36, May 20, 2020 (UTC)
- I'm just saying it might be better to reserve the infoboxes for primary sources. There's many many secondary sources which are all official, but tonnes of them contradict and clash which makes a mess of the infoboxes. Secondary sources will still be included obviously, just not at the very top of the page. Cleaning out infoboxes =/= failure to acknowledge a source. The mention in trivia is already adequate for anyone who is interested in that information, in fact that's exactly the kind of thing that typically goes in trivia due to the vagueness of its accuracy. Stryzzar 03:08, May 22, 2020 (UTC)