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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken article.
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"Near light speed"
"It would required near light speed to travel in stopped time."
This quote is incorrect, as... Well, stopped time = no movement. Therefore not even light can move in stopped time: that's kind of the point. If object moving near lightspeed could move during frozen time, time wasn't frozen. Please adjust or remove this. LuckyEmile (talk) 07:17, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand something. People are saying that Goku can't use the kaio ken technique with his super saiyan form because there isn't enough ki control, yet we see that Goku already used this combination against Pikkon in another tournament. I don't get it. Is it that after the training Goku can't use this combination? It doesn't make alot of sense. TNTDiscoCisco (talk) 13:40, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
- If you remember the issue Goku had with Super Saiyan 3 as a living being, it actually makes sense in context, for why a Super Saiyan Goku was capable of using Kaio-ken, while he was dead. Also, the mastering of the Super Saiyan Form to a natural state aka Super Saiyan Full Power, is a factor which contributed in making this combination possible in the first place. Thanatos-Zero (talk) 20:40, April 21, 2016 (UTC)
Filler. Basically its not part of the "Dragon Ball Super canon"Creeperman129 (talk) 13:42, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
Clarification
- Transformation?
No, its not confirmed as a new transformation, Vados refer it as a transformation but she doesn't know what Kaio-ken is, by this logic the Ki control is just tricks because Mr. Satán said it.
- Relevance
No, it's not necesary an article for this, like Super Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2, x3 or x10 is just Son Goku using it in his Súper Saiyajin Blue state, both are the same technique, it should be merged or deleted like Chou Super Saiyan the title said new technique but because a episode title says something it doesn't make it true.
- Name
Sorry but this technique doesn't have any official name yet, Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken is a fan name, Goku refer it as Kaio-ken with the power of Súper Saiyajin Blue, the alternate names doesn't make any sense, Goku's new technique is not an alternate name is an adjective
Thats all the clarification, don't allow to make articles like this.
Yone!米津愛主！ ¿Do you want to join my army? Jaunt my user's Dissertate Pana mío!
- 1. Vados word is more legit than Satan's, especially since he only said that to save face 2. The NEP from the previous episode also had Goku refer to it as his new technique 3. The article notes that the name is conjecture.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:26, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that Kaioken isn't a transformation but is instead a ki manipulation technique. However, we do need a page for this as it's a new technique, and since there's no official name, I think a fan term is fine for now. We've also clarified that it's unofficial using the template on the top of the page. -- Final ChidoriTalk 17:56, April 17, 2016 (UTC)
Power
Do you know what I don't understand? I don't understand how this form couldn't completely overpower and defeat Beerus. I mean, if Goku as a Super Saiyan God was at least as powerful as Beerus at 70% power, that's one thing, but even after like a few years of training, he still lisn't considered at least on par with or more powerful than Beerus, and with this technique, Goku would multiply his power, which is already at least at 70% power compared to Beerus, by 2x, 5x, and then even 10x, then Goku would be able to obliterate Beerus in the short time he could activate his power, so if he was still at least at 70% of Beerus, multiply that by 10, then Goku would be at least 7 times more powerful than Beerus, and this is without the extra power he gained as a SSGSS. I mean, that power I think with the math could rival Whis. I mean, Akira Toyriama said in comparison to power, Beerus was a 10, and Whis was a 15, so how is Goku still weaker than Beerus, even after all this math? Can anyone deny it? —This unsigned comment was made by TNTDiscoCisco (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
- First, this is not what talk pages are for. There's forums for discussions such as this, as this has nothing to do with improving the article. As for the topic you bring up, you're assuming that "10" and "15" are scaled linearly, while they could easily be exponential or logarithmic, like the Richter scale. Point is, he's still not close to Bills. Toriyama said in an interview that he doesn't intend for Goku to catch up to him any time soon. — Zero-ELEC (talk) 21:38, April 18, 2016 (UTC)
Name
This ought to be changed back to Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken, since it was never called SSGSS Kaio-ken. ~~ IST O L E T H E P I ES π 14:49, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
- The name comes from DB Heroes, which is the only thing to have named it.--Neffyarious (talk) 14:51, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
Name
This technique/form has never been called "Super Saiyan Blue: Kaio-ken" (which as of right now is a fan name), it has only ever been called "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: Kaio-ken", so the name needs to be switched back.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:57, September 29, 2016 (UTC)
- When was it called SSGSS Kaio-ken? --
10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 23:51, September 29, 2016 (UTC)
In Dragon Ball Heroes God Mission 9, as seen here: http://www.carddass.com/dbh/cardlist/?search=true&category=133309
~ Yon ~
Visit my talk page! 23:59, September 29, 2016 (UTC)
- Okay good. That reference should be added to the article if you change the name. Otherwise everyone else will ask the same question. --
10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 16:09, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
- Looks like the article name was changed back, but no reference to the source in the article yet. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 16:46, October 21, 2016 (UTC)
- Looks like the article name was changed back, but no reference to the source in the article yet. --
- Sorry to have to barge in but the form is officially called Super Saiyan Blue: Kaio-ken by the Dragon Ball Super English subtitles. FinaleGAME (talk) 23:13, December 2, 2016 (UTC)
Sorry to disappoint you, but in Dragon Ball Super there is no specific dialogue that mentions the term mentioned.
~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 18:14, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
- If it makes any difference, unless I'm mistaken, Xenoverse 2 now does refer to this as "Super Saiyan Blue: Kaio-Ken". Perhaps another name change to be more in line with the actual article of Super Saiyan Blue?--TheUltimate3 File:Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 11:58, December 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. It makes absolutely no sense to have the main article be called "Super Saiyan Blue" and use a different name for this. All it does is confuse the readers. -- Final ChidoriTalk 21:36, December 15, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree, SSB makes more sense for consistency. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 01:34, December 16, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree, SSB makes more sense for consistency. --
Agreed, since now Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken is official, then is better to move it to maintain consistency with other articles.
~ Yon ~Visit my talk page! 01:36, December 16, 2016 (UTC)
Manga Blue Kaioken Note
While I do believe it's fitting now to have the manga variation of this form on this page, I believe it's important to note that it's still referred to as using the "principles" of Kaioken, and not an actual application of the technique on top of SSB. It's still a power-boost merely similar to the Kaioken in how it affects Goku's body. Gildeds (talk) 15:39, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
It's called "Blue Kaio-ken" by the article, so it is the Kaio-ken itself not just similar. It being "principles" doesn't necessarily make it something different. --Neffyarious (talk) 15:41, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
If it were truly Kaioken, then it'd be more clear to state something along the lines of "This form is Super Saiyan Blue using the Kaio-ken technique" instead of "Utilizing the principles of the Kaio-ken, the user is able to temporarily increase their power as a Super Saiyan Blue." The comparison is made, and the parallels with the commonly-used anime version is likely why it's called Blue Kaioken, but to avoid making assumptions it'd probably be better to say the manga version is still just "using the principles of the Kaio-ken." This is noted after the translation was made by Cipher. Gildeds (talk) 20:28, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Of course its using the principles of Kaioken because it isn't Kaioken, it's Blue Kaioken and its treated as a different technique thanks to being used with SSGSS. In fact Super Kaioken is treated as a different tech than normal Kaioken in the Chozenshuu but if we want to use your logic then the Chozenshuu should have just had Super Kaioken under the Kaioken entry too. FlatZone (talk) 21:10, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Not exactly the same thing. Super Kaioken has Goku literally shout Kaioken while he's in Super Saiyan. He's clearly using the Kaioken technique on top of Super Saiyan. The manga makes it pretty clear he's just wrecking his body, and the comparison is made as an anime homage. It's given the name "Blue Kaioken" in the VJump page due the comparison and how it's basically a reference to SSB Kaioken being used in the anime. Again, the page itself never states that he actually uses Kaioken with Super Saiyan Blue. Gildeds (talk) 21:48, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Wrong, because immediately after Krillin says "The Kaioken? Now, after all this time? Will it even work??" "Well?!" Whis says "I'm afraid not..." Clear acknowledgement that it is indeed the Kaioken. I have the officially translated chapters and am looking at it right now. FlatZone (talk) 22:46, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
It's still just a comparison made to the Kaioken. Tien comments on the similarity with Goku trashing his body for more power. Then followed by Krillin's comment. Whis is merely commenting on the fact it fails, not on whether or not it's Kaioken. Please, read more carefully. Why, Jiren even says that Goku did the same thing Kale did. Did Kale use the Kaioken too? Or did she just happen to use the "principles" of Kaioken? Gildeds (talk) 23:58, May 22, 2020 (UTC)
Don't "please read more carefully me" Kaioken is a tech that boosts ones strength but damages ones body. Kale boosted her strength and damaged her body. Of course Jiren would make that comparison. V-Jump then confirms it, you don't like that?? Too bad. It's an official source. As I pointed out Krillin called it the Kaioken and Whis did not deny that, you also fail to realize Jiren has never seen the normal Kaioken tech being used before either. It's Blue Kaioken. and thats what it is should remain named as. FlatZone (talk) 00:15, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
VJump if anything confirms that it isn't actually Kaioken. Did you read the tweets? If it were actually Kaioken, the page would say he's using Kaioken. He's just forcing out Blue in a way that behaves similarly to the anime's SSBKK, hence they just call it Blue Kaioken. Gildeds (talk) 01:07, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
Of course I read the tweets, Ian says the labeled name for it is Blue Kaioken and that the panel shown was Goku from when he was doing such in the manga vs Jiren. It is literally Blue Kaioken. FlatZone (talk) 01:09, May 23, 2020 (UTC)
You missed the one where he points out the page doesn't say he's using Kaio-ken. Gildeds (talk) 01:26, May 23, 2020 (UTC)