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SSJ4 as the real "SSJ2"

Okay so Ridureyu, can you explain some backing on that, because I understand where your coming from but most of that is pure speculation? SSJGoku93 00:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, total speculation, but this is GT we're talking about.

Didn't Broly have an action figure depicting him as a Super Saiyan 4? I mean, I know I saw at least one on ebay, even having an official packaging of it.

It is on Ebay but that's those chinese unofficial toys. Also they're based off of Toyble's Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Broly. EchostreamFanJosh

Not sure what you guys are talking about, but based on the chart on the Super Saiyan article, I would guess that SSJ4 is like "Great Ape SSJ2". Since the "Great Ape" is practically a different species from a regular Saiyan, it's reasonable to consider their Super Saiyan transformations as a separate "product line". That gives us "Saiyan/Great Ape", the base form; "Super Saiyan/Super Great Ape", which gives the fighter a massive power boost and changes their colors yellow; and "Super Saiyan 2/Super Great Ape 2", which gives the fighter longer than average hair (Super Great Ape 2 more so because it's a more powerful transformation). That's one way of looking at it, at least. BrentNewland 02:47, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

'4' in Japanese

I don't speak fluent Japanese but I'm familiar with numerous words in the language, and I always thought the romanized Japanese words for the number 4 were 'si' and 'yon', not 'fō'. Is this incorrect? Storm 09:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, if this page is any indication, I'd say you're right. (First thing that came up when Googling.) I'll admit I'm also not a fluent speaker though. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 09:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that page too while checking into it. Another thing that makes 'fō' questionable (to me anyways) is that Nuova Shenron's Japanese name is "Si Xīng Long" ("Four Star Dragon"). Storm 10:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. One thing I notice though is that the Romaji renditions of Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 also don't correspond to that numbering. It might be that those words are a different form of number, like 'second', 'third' and 'fourth' as opposed to 'two', 'three', and 'four'. Or something different entirely. I watched the Japanese dub of the episode where Goku ascends to SS4, and when Kibito Kai states the name of the transformation, and it does indeed sound like he's saying 'fō'. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 00:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a fluent speaker myself, but I know that second, third and fourth translate to 'Nidaime', 'Sandaime' and 'Yondaime', respectively. However, there is another way of saying Japanese nowadays, it's called Engrish. Japanese people tend to speak English words or phrases with their own accent. 'Fō' is most likely originating from there, it's Engrish for Four. --Neos 19:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense, thanks. I imagine that's where 'Supa' comes from too? Gosh, now maybe we need an 'Engrish' parameter in the translation template. LOL. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 08:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Nah. Engrish is still Japanese. You don't need to make a new template. Neos 09:48, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


Um, I don't think SSJ4 Vegeta appears in Transformations considering it only goes to the end of the Baby saga but I've never played it so I don't want to edit anything without making sure. --Vatek 21:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Quote for Super Saiyan 4

If there is a quote for the article, please post it right there. If there isn't any, just remove it out of the article. Dekoshu talk contrib 00:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"At long last... I've ascended." - Vegeta after transforming to SSJ4. From the Funimation dub.-- bulletproof 03:45, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Bulletproof. What does Goku say when he achieved Super Saiyan 4? Dekoshu talk contrib 03:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Goku? When he first tranformed? ...Nothing. He just smirks. -- bulletproof 06:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I meant when Goku first transformed into Super Saiyan 4. Dekoshu talk contrib 18:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I mean he just smirked. -- bulletproof 21:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Okay, he just smirked. But what about the quote Goku said?
That's what Goku says in regards to the Super Saiyan 3 transformation. He doesn't say anything in regards to SS4. Storm Z Ball talk projects 21:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


I would really like to know what the creators of GT were thinking when they designed Super Saiyan 4. Where did the red fur and all of that come from? --LocC 09 14:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

In response, I believe they chose red simply because gold would be too much to look at. Super Saiyan Historian 16:52, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Just my humble opinion, but I'll bet they were trying to make him look more like Sun Wukong (aka, the monkey king.

Speaking of which, I added into the Trivia section that while it is called Super Saiyan 4, it's possible for even an untrained Super Saiyan to achieve it so long as they have a tail/blutz wave generator.

I believe Dragonball has magic so it might be the reason why super saiyan 4 gets his red fur. (23:05, September 1, 2009 (UTC))

I think Dragon Ball got magic, but I doubt that's what makes the red fur Dyas 14:04, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

maybe a ss4 hint

i was thinking maybe ss4 was hinted i nthe manga

i mean frieza 4 forms cell 4 main forms buu 4 forms

YOUE SEE 0_o yer so if anyone has anything to say....

4 forms including there base form which would mean ss3 is gokus 4 form


In the infobox the colors has only red. Super Saiyan 4 has: red, maroon, black, brown. EchostreamFanJosh

stronger than a golden ape

it says that no info sudgests that it is stronger than a golden great ape but baby vegeta in normal form is stronger than goku(gt) in even super saiyan form is yet when golden great ape baby and ss4 goku are fighting they are eaqual and baby was in control so that means ss4 is stronger and has control. Wowfunny251andwowfunneyanderasa 05:49, March 16, 2010 (UTC)


Xaity 07:29, May 19, 2010 (UTC) I sew a SSJ4 concept in Deviantart or something and the concept looked like an upgranded version of SSJ3 (Like SSJ2 is a SSJ1 with lightings and spikier hair and SSJ3 is like a SSJ3 is a SSJ2 with longer hair). Is Toriama's concept looks like the true SSJ4 in DBGT or does it looks like what I mensioned?

Xaity could you put the link on this page? It sounds interesting. Super Saiyan Historian 23:38, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

You can put the link, but please don't add the actual picture, no fan art  SSJ4 Lewich  talk  contribs  13:16, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Dumb Things People Have Done

Its really smart to remember Dragon Ball Z facts when talking about Dragon Ball GT, like remembering that Vegeta can control the Great Ape Transformation and that he never turned Golen Great Ape straight away so the guy who says (after he finally gained control) should stop making that edit. And face the facts you cant always think your wrong k.

The great ape transformation is different than golden great ape. Remember when Goku had to use every bit of will power he had not to kill Gohan after going ss? Who's to say it's not the same thing? No speculation please. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 01:15, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

re3super saiyan 4 vegeta

Can i add a new picture of Super Saiyan 4 vegeta?

The one that is there now is among the better ones on the Wiki, but if you have a better one, you are welcome to try it out. Just keep in mind that it very well may be reverted by the community. GTGohanBlueGroup6blue400 1203477316 wwwtengoverguenzablogspotcom-luis-v-blue-goku 21:19, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
how is this
I like the one all ready there because it does not show a beat up vegeta like this one does.THETRUESUPERSAIYAN 01:16, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
umm my bad i thought yall would like a beat up vegeta and goku for the thing

One question please...

Does somebody know what will happen after the tail is removed as SSJ4?—This unsigned comment was made by (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Nobody knows as it was never shown in the series. Jeangabin666 20:44, July 5, 2011 (UTC) nothing would u could still go ssj4 rember it was stated u only need the requirements the first time u use the transformation does go still need 2 get angry no he does not u only need the requirements the first time after that u can go 2 the transformation any time u does goku still need 2 go goled great ape 2 go 2 ssj 4 no that the only need for the tail and that is 2 go great ape and goku does not go great ape 2 go 2 ss4 so there is know need for the tail after the firdt time.
It is unknown. It has never been shown. Anyway anon. Your english is bearly understanble. I suppose you work on it. EntertainmentFan14 16:44, September 15, 2011 (UTC)
Your english is bearly understanble. bearly understanble. understanble. And the irony. - 17:00, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

ssj 4 is the actuall SSJ transformation, and What YOU CALL SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 are merely stages in evolution to the Super Saiyan stage.

its confusing 05:07, June 11, 2012 (UTC)I have a question and its been bothering me, is Gogeta allowed fo 10 minutes or 15 when he's a SSJ4? this page says 15 but gogeta's page says 10, i'm confused, please help me. 05:07, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

What's SSj4's multiplier?

How stronger is a Super Saiyan 4 than a Super Saiyan 3? The page says that you have to already be in your Super Saiyan or higher form and then access into your Golden Oozaru form. Does this mean that SSj4 multiplies base form only by 500? 'Cause if that were the case, then there's no way that SSj4 is stronger than Baby Vegeta.Disasters GoOn (talk) 23:50, August 21, 2012 (UTC)Disasters GoOn


one fake information - SS4 IS the Super Saiyan level. This inforamtion downside of the Trivia is the GT-heiters fantasies—This unsigned comment was made by SuperSaiyanDate (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

This? "Super Saiyan forms 1-3 have gold hair, and the Super Saiyan 4 form does not. This is explained in the Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files: the Super Saiyan 4 form is not a Super Saiyan form but an evolution in the Saiyan physiology that takes the greatest traits from the Great Ape and the regular Saiyan form." ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 16:51, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
Yes--Date450190486 17:12, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
I've reverted it back. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 18:12, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

SSJ4 is non-canon

Super Saiyan 4 can't exist because Super Saiyans don't have tails (in the manga atleast).

1. The last time Goku's tail regenrated was when he was around 13.

2. Gohan achieved SSJ at the age of 10 and his tail never grew back again.

Goku's tail been returned in GT--Date450190486 11:43, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Really? It could vary depeneding on the Saiyan. Besides, Goku was 12 years old when he became a kid. And from doing special training, he was able to regrow his tail. And Super Saiyans don't have tails because their tails were REMOVED before they achieved SSJ. Are you seriously implying it's impossible for Super Saiyans to have Tails? Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 Dragon-ball-z-wallpaper-8 14:10, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Super Saiyans can't have a tail? SS7S1BuuSS7S2 uuuSS7S3 uuuSS7S5 uuuSS7S4 uuu!!SS7S6 00:40, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

That's so weird. I was kind of under the impression that being Super Saiyan and Great Ape were the only requirements for Golden Great Ape, and then having mental control over your Great Ape form made you Super Saiyan 4. Bardock is a champ. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 05:25, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

SS4 Great Ape

Goku ascended SS4

Goku ascending to Super Saiyan 4

I added picture of SS4 Great Ape Goku. Don't remove it and you can edit it. XameXameXa | K A A A - M E E E - H A A A - M E E E - H A A A ! ! !


Can Gohan acess this from if he gets bis tail back. Then, its power would be humongous. 16:16, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe if he trains a lot more and goes someplace with a moon. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 23:44, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

What name was the creator SSJ4?


  • Goku's variation is the first to be seen. When he transforms into a Super Saiyan 4, he has scarlet red fur on the top half of his body, his hair turns black, and his eyes change to golden-yellow.                                          
  • Goku's variation is the first to be seen. When he transforms into a Super Saiyan 4, he has scarlet red fur on the top half of his body, his hair REMAINS black, and his eyes change to golden-yellow.—This unsigned comment was made by Yamaan (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
Done! Thanks. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh11:50, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
To be perfectly techinical, Goku's hair DOES turn black the first time he goes SSJ4, as it was gold due to his Super Oozaru form up to that point.  Rui Usagi (talk) 04:47, January 8, 2014 (UTC)


Is it ever explicitly stated that SSJ4 overwhelms Black Star Dragonball wishes?  Or is it just as possible that SSJ4 causes the user's body to take on a form best suited for expressing their power, their physical prime?  Rui Usagi (talk) 04:51, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

A combination of both, but I wouldn't say ss4 form has the power to overcome a wish made with the black star dragonballs other than that concerning the body and the form itself. Prassy90 (talk) 13:18, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

It may depend on the wish itself. Yes, SS4 Goku overwhelms the Black Stat Dragon Ball wish to make him young, regardless of whether the reason is that he started old or that he is best suited for fighting with an older body. Yes, this technically means that wishes can be overcome, but it is not a sure thing that all wishes can be overcome. For instance, if the Earth is destroyed by a wish and all the humans die, Goku might struggle to be able to reverse that. He has revived animals and we have seen characters create matter... but this is a huge scale for Goku. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 01:54, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

The Multiplier 

On this page it says that "In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x a regular Super Saiyan in power (matching the 10x Kamehameha multiplier) so what would the SSJ4 Multipler be then?

Can't you do the math? Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 00:52, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
I dd and i came up with multiply therios like x10,x50,x60 and x500,so i came here to see if any of those were right and if not to see what the multiplier is...... HybridSaiyan (talk) 00:56, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4 = Oozaru 2?

So..This may sound stupid, hell, someone could've thought about this before but..I don't think SSJ4 is actually SSJ4.  

What I mean is..Well. I think the levels of Super Saiyan make their hair longer and in turn boost their power and drain more energy..

Nooww. Super Saiyan God..That's a different story altogether..So I'm leaving that out.

But Super Saiyan 4..Well. It doesn't seem to drain power as much as 3, it doesn't make the hair longer..But it does make them stronger. Now..Oozaru raises a saiyans energy by around..10x if I remember right, I honestly see SSJ4 as more of a evolved Oozaru or Oozaru 2 if anything. If you think about it, the other forms have no great ape transformation and body hair like that..Maybe it's just the next form of a Oozaru and the power boost could be around 50 or a 100 or so. Welp, just my thoughts. ShenIsADick (talk) 05:14, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

The form is linked strongly to Oozaru (need to achieve Golden Oozaru first, need a tail) and has some advantages over SS3. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 06:46, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

That's my point. If you pay attention, SSJ3(Even SSJ2 sorta) drains the users energy EXTREMELY quickly, SSJ4 though, Goku can hold that as if it was a Super Saiyan transformation or even not a transformation at all..Just a different form. ShenIsADick (talk) 19:21, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4?

To be a SS4, you need a tail and the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. If you don't have SS2 or SS3, are you really a Super Saiyan 4? Meshack (talk) 19:00, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Vegeta doesnt have SS3 (in the anime) but has SS4. Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 19:04, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
no but we know what ss3 is Meshack (talk) 19:06, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

SSJ4 is not that much stronger than SSJ3

According to my calculations SSJ4 is only 1.25x stronger than SSJ3. It is simple; Goku in SSJ3 has a power level of 1 200 000 000 which is 400x stronger than his base form which is 3 000 000. SSJ4 is 10x stronger than SSJ1 which is 150 000 000. So that means SSJ4 is 500x more powerful than Goku's base form. Therefore Goku's power level is 1 500 000 000 in SSJ4. So you divide 1 500 000 000 / 1 200 000 000 which gives you 1.25. To check that you do simply 1 200 000 000 x 1.25 which is 1 500 000 000. Which means SSJ4 is only 1.25x stronger than SSJ3.


Is the Super Saiyan 4 actually a Super Saiyan?--Hulk10 (talk) 22:18, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

While its appearence isn't very similar to the other SSJ forms, SSJ4 is definitely a Super Saiyan form. -- Final ChidoriTalk 22:30, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah I'd agree with that Final Chidori.--Hulk10 (talk) 22:36, May 9, 2016 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Line

In The Page It Says That Super Saiyan 4 Is Not Part Of The Core Transformations Of Super Saiyan (1-3). This Makes It Its Own Transformation And Not Have Predecessors Such As Super Saiyan 3, Due To The Fact That If Super Saiyan 3 Was A Predecessor, They Would Transform From 3 To 4, And Not From Base To 4. PS: Even In The Bottom Where It Lists All The Forms Under The Saiyan Title, SSJ4 Is Separate, And Not In Line With 1-3. Bob1200 (talk) 10:19, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Kanzenshu has a translation of what GT prefect files says "Super Saiyan 4, The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku." doesn't say that it is a different form at all.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  10:23,5/10/2016 
Except It Says Right On The Super Saiyan 4 Page On The Wikia That It IS A Separate Form. PS: Your Own Statement Backfires As It Directly Says "it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!!" That's Literally The Same Thing As Calling It A Separate Form. Bob1200 (talk) 10:25, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4 is part of the Super Saiyan transformation line just like Legendary Super Saiyan, LSS3, SSG, and SSGSS are they are just don't look a like, just like False Super Saiyan doesn't look anything like Super Saiyan and so on. How is that the same thing as calling it a separate form? Please stop capitalizing the first letter of every word it is annoying and an eye sore.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  10:35,5/10/2016 

Its Part Of The Transformation Line In The Sense That It Has Super Saiyan In The Title, But Other Than That It Has Absolutely Nothing In Common With Them. The Same Can Be Said For Super Saiyan God. Its A Separate Form From The Main Transformations Because They Don't Transform In That Order. Both Forms Transform From Base, Not From Super Saiyan 3, Or Even Super Saiyan 1. Bob1200 (talk) 10:42, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Here is a link to the website they have SS4 listed under SS3 Also Vegeta transformed right into SS2 when Babidi made him the cold ruthless warrior he was before, Gohan transformed right to SS2 in Broly Second Coming, when he was infected by Baby, fought Syn Shenron, and Omega Shenron, and Goku transformed right to SS2 when fighting Majin Vegeta, and he transforms right to SS3 when Fighting Baby Vegeta on New Planet Tuffle even though some of what listed was before the fight even started but still they can transform right into one of the Super Saiyan forms from base. Also when Goku first reached Super Saiyan 4 and Golden Great Ape he transformed from SS3 into Golden Great Ape then eventually into SS4 he didn't transform into SS4 right from his base form.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  10:58,5/10/2016 

First Off, Just Because They Don't Transform In Order Due To Mastery, Doesn't Mean That Its The Same Case For Super Saiyan 4, And Also, Last I Remembered, Goku Reverted To Base Before Going Golden Oozaru. And Going Golden Oozaru Was Required For The First Time Transforming, So That's Not Really A Viable Argument. I'm Referring To A Later Time, Like During The Super 17 Saga, Or The Shadow Dragons Saga, Where He DID Transform Straight To Super Saiyan 4 From His Base. A lot Of Those Earlier Transformations Were Done To Save Time In The Episodes, Like Majin Vegeta Going Straight SSJ2. P.S: That Link Was Made Before The Super 17 Saga Was Even Made, Lmao. Bob1200 (talk) 11:07, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't matter it happened and Goku mastered SS4. Some of what I mentioned where from the movies but let's wait for someone else to add their two cents so a consensuses is not reached.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  11:12,5/10/2016 

Nobody Ever Said Goku Mastered It, lol. Bob1200 (talk) 11:21, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

First off you don't have to use : every time. Second off if he hadn't mastered it he wouldn't have been able to transform into it from base so yea.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  11:23,5/10/2016 

A. Yes U Do, Otherwise It Looks Stupid As Shit And That Its Not Part Of The Same Conversation. B. UNLESS, Its A Separate Line In The Saiyan Transformations. Its Not Impossible. Bob1200 (talk) 12:24, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

No you don't Bob1200, adding : to the start of your sentences is just plain odd.--Hulk10 (talk) 12:28, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

The colon before a sentence is great if you ask me. It lets you know someone else is talking before you get to the signature. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 23:25, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4 Transformation Requirements.

Can a Saiyan transform into a Super Saiyan 4 at will if they have a tail?--Hulk10 (talk) 02:41, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

  • The anime says that normally a Saiyan cannot transform into this form without Blutz Waves, but that Goku is a "special case". That is all.--Neffyarious (talk) 02:45, January 19, 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't recall the anime saying that. And I just watched the anime--Hulk10 (talk) 02:46, January 19, 2017 (UTC)
  • In subbed version.--Neffyarious (talk) 02:53, January 19, 2017 (UTC)
  • ok................... You seem to be right....... but it makes no sense............. I'm still not entirely convinced though but I'll leave the page out of it............. >:(. Also I fail to see why Goku should be a special case--Hulk10 (talk) 02:57, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

Having further considered this. I do not see how Vegeta's inability to change back without blutz waves applies to normal Saiyans as Vegeta achieved this form unnaturally.--Hulk10 (talk) 02:11, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

  • Goku is said to be a "special case" of a Saiyan, so unless every Saiyan is a "special case" other than Vegeta, then no.--Neffyarious (talk) 02:27, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

That's a pretty weak argument considering Vegeta achieved the form unnaturally. Also if he needed blutz waves to change then he should have changed back when Bulma's machine was destroyed.--Hulk10 (talk) 03:29, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

  • Vegeta achieved the form through Blutz Waves - that's natural, even so, your argument is weaker because their is no official information behind it, if you can find any information at all to back up your argument and not just your fan speculation then you may have a point. But you can't, while on the other hand there is an official statement in the anime itself that the form cannot be accessed at will.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:31, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

That might be true but again I ask, why didn't Vegeta turn back immediately after Omega Shenron destroyed the blutz wave machine? Needing Blutz Waves suggests that the form depends on blutz waves to maintain them. Also if Goku were truly a special case then surely he wouldn't need blutz waves to go Great Ape or be able to prevent himself from transforming into one. But you see neither. -Hulk10 (talk) 03:38, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

  • Vegeta did not turn back for the same reason that a Saiyan who goes Great Ape via power ball and then stays Great Ape even after the power ball is destroyed does not revert back to base form. Goku's "special case" traits are only said to apply to SS4, so there's no problem with him not going Great Ape, and anyway Goku has never tried to go Great Ape at will. This discussion is pretty pointless anyway because you are using fan opinion to argue against official info.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:53, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

'official' info that only appears in subbed anime and nowhere else. But this is pointless as neither of us agree.--Hulk10 (talk) 03:57, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

  • Yup. Official information that only appear in one thing = Official information.--Neffyarious (talk) 04:13, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

If it appeared in manga or somewhere other than the anime then it would be official.--Hulk10 (talk) 21:18, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

Your opinion does not outweigh an official source. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 02:55, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

Then why does it only appear in the subbed anime? It doesn't appear in anything else (talk) 03:00, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

Appearing in only the subbed anime does not make it any less official.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:14, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

But isn't the manga a more official source as its more canon? Of course GT does not appear in the manga......--Hulk10 (talk) 03:16, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

Yup Toriyama's Manga is higher on our canon tier. What's your point though? You were not using the manga as a source, and you just said yourself that GT aint even in the manga, so SS4 aint in it either, the dub of the GT anime make no reference to how SS4 works, while the sub explains that only a special case can use it at will, thus there is no counter-source, and even if there was it would have to be in a video game of guidebook (since GT is over), which would make it lower tier of canon than the subbed anime, and thus would not be treated as superior (more-right) info than the english sub's.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:28, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

Well it just seems weird that its only mentioned in the sub and that seems to impact its reliability that and the only instance of a saiyan occurance of a Saiyan remaining in the Great Ape form after the moon is gone is in the Tree of Might and that's less canon than the anime and manga, so if the SS4 requires blutz waves to attain and maintain then once the blutz waves are gone then the form cannot be maintained. They directly state that the Great Ape needs both blutz waves and a tail to be maintained, so surely the SS4 would at least need blutz waves to maintain. Vegeta proved that a tail isn't necessary for the achievement of SS4 so the tail requirement is null--Hulk10 (talk) 03:34, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

I wish we could talk to the creators about the requirements, then we would have another official source backing up either viewpoint.--Hulk10 (talk) 04:25, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

Two official sources for the facts are nice, but one official source is sufficient. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 04:54, March 29, 2017 (UTC)
True...................... Although for a research paper you need more than one source... But this isn't a research paper............--Hulk10 (talk) 05:00, March 29, 2017 (UTC)
The whole point of growing out Goku's tail was for him to acquire Super Saiyan 4 as Old Kai said, therefor you only need to have a tail.. Vegeta does not have a tail. Goku is only a special case because he is the ONLY one with a tail still. Problem solved. QuakingStar (talk) 05:39, March 29, 2017 (UTC)
The tail making Goku a "special case" is merely speculation. In a way it does not make sense either, as all Saiyans are born with a tail, so why would a Saiyan with a tail be a "special case". The Goku in GT also displayed the unique ability to adapt to any attack so that it would not affect him twice, possessed "plus energy" in his body that could counteract the Shadow Dragons, and could also absorb energy attacks from his foes - all very unique abilities that no other Saiyans possess, so GT Goku just seems to be some kind of "special case" of a Saiyan overall, with the tail having nothing to do with it.--Neffyarious (talk) 06:31, March 29, 2017 (UTC)
I never saw any evidence to suggest that he has "plus energy" but I would take issue with the all Saiyans are born with tails, Universe 6 ones aren't born with tails and Goten, Trunks, Bulla and Pan were born without tails. Of course those examples aren't pure blooded Saiyans. And I dunno about the ability to adapt to any attack thing but whatever.--Hulk10 (talk) 06:47, March 29, 2017 (UTC)
It's straight up stated that he has plus energy. Universe 6 is another universe and had not been invented yet, Goten, Trunks, Bulla and Pan are not full Saiyan as you said. None of that matters though really.--Neffyarious (talk) 06:55, March 29, 2017 (UTC)
True. But I personally don't see how SS4 should only be usable with blutz waves.--Hulk10 (talk) 07:00, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

Fake energy gives an anime character a new powerup, it's pretty standard stuff. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 02:59, March 30, 2017 (UTC)

There is also the fact that a Super Saiyan 4 is still a super saiyan, despite the fact that it is not part of the original line up.--Hulk10 (talk) 17:21, March 30, 2017 (UTC)

What does that have to do with this? -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 01:13, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. I was just making that observation.--Hulk10 (talk) 01:21, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, it means that since its a Super Saiyan transformation and they can be accessed at will, there is no good reason why it shouldn't be, also Vegeta is the only one of the two that couldn't transform at will. Having just two doesn't mean you can make the call that the form can't be used at will for most Saiyans.--Hulk10 (talk) 23:11, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

The official databooks and the author say

Super Saiyan 4 brings out the max potential of a Saiyan/Super Saiyan, which is Super Saiyan 3 and combines it with Golden Ozaru which we can assume gives the 10x multiplier at the minimum which means You take the full potential of Super Saiyan which is Super Saiyan 3 and you multiply it by 10 making SS4 give a 4000x base multiplier. If it uses the full potential why wouldn't it be SS3 x 10?

"Super Saiyan 3 extracts every drop of potential from a Saiyan's blood."

" Akira Toriyama stated in the Saikyō Jump's June 2014 interview that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered up variants of Super Saiyan and that mastering Super Saiyan could increase its power beyond that of Super Saiyan 2 and 3 while draining less energy."

"The Super Saiyan 4 form draws the power of its users up to its utmost limits."

So SS4 is literally SS3 aka the max potential of Super Saiyan x 10. The Author and the official entries pretty much confirm this.. so why are we using some video game bs for the power of the form?? FlatZone (talk) 15:58, May 16, 2018 (UTC)

"Goku being a special case"

Is literally because he is the only one with a tail.
Asset (1)
 Kanzenshuu has already read the GT perfect files and they make it clear here QuakingStar (talk) 10:34, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

here is the link... QuakingStar (talk) 11:14, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

I fail to see how seeing only two Super Saiyan 4;s in the anime can predict that all other Saiyans can't access the form at will. It seems to be open to interpretation.

That's because it's all bull. Vegeta AND Goku couldn't transform back into SS4 at that time, and Vegeta points that out right after the whole special case bs, they both lost too much energy so they couldn't maintain the form. Vegeta also did not possess his tail, and in GT alone, you need the tail to use the form, hence the entire damn reason Old Kai helped Goku grow his tail back. Goku is a special case because of one key difference.. he has HIS TAIL. Vegeta does NOT have a TAIL. All of the needing a tail to transform has been retconned by Toei anyway because in ALL their latest media after that the Super Saiyan 4 form is present in Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan and they no longer need their tails to re-enter the form at Will, ever. So one old case, vs alll the new instances?? I think its clear what should be done. Toei is who gets to say what SS4 does and is, and they are the ones who decide what it takes to use the form.. why? because they frickin' created it. FlatZone (talk) 18:44, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

Chozenshu 4 info Translated with link to source

Found the translations. In the Chozenshuu which is released in 2013, where Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan 4 are both present. Super Saiyan 4 is still called the ultimate form, Super Saiyan God is not called that but I must note they seem to no longer consider UFPSS4 to be an upgraded level of SS4 but simply SS4 at its full power, before energy loss.

" 超サイヤ人 派生技:超サイヤ人4 Sūpā Saiya-jin Hasei-waza: Sūpā Saiya-jin Fō

Super Saiyan Derivative Technique: Super Saiyan 4

[Cat.] Special

[Peo.] Gogeta, Son Goku, Vegeta

[Par.] The ultimate form that surpasses the Super Saiyan 3. In "Dragon Ball GT" Goku regains his tail and transforms into a Golden Oozaru. By talking to Pan, he regained his reason and became a Super Saiyan 4. It is different from the conventional Super Saiyan as the form has long black hair and red fur. Vegeta used the Super Bruits Wave Generator built by Bulma to become a Super Saiyan 4."

" 超サイヤ人 派生技:超サイヤ人ゴッド Sūpā Saiya-jin Hasei-waza: Sūpā Saiya-jin Goddo

Super Saiyan Derivative Technique: Super Saiyan God

[Peo.] Son Goku

[Par.] It has the condition that 6 saiyans with righteous hearts must assemble together. It is created by 5 of the righteous saiyans sending their ki into one other. In the movie version of God and God, Goku became a Super Saiyan God by receiving the ki of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta and Pan while inside Videl's belly. It's a power-up that exceeds that of the Super Saiyan 3 and the hair becomes red and the body becomes more slender."

It also seems Ultra-full-power Saiyan 4 is no longer a thing in the official Databooks as it is just called Super Saiyan 4 here, while in the original jap dubbed episode he was UFPSS4 when he was able to equal and then overpower Syn Shenron. It also claims that Omega Shenron fought equally with SS4 Gogeta, probably due to his ability to regenerate, note it is not saying that Omega Shenron is equal in strength to SS4 Gogeta.

" 一星龍 Ī Shin Ron ☆

Yi Xing Long ☆

[Par.] The strongest Evil Dragon who's power equals Goku's Super Saiyan 4 and appears in "Dragon Ball GT". He absorbs the seven Dragon Balls, becoming Super Yi Xing Long. He's a cruel character who ruthlessly defeated his friend Si Xing Long.

[Tech.] Power Ball etc.

[Bat.] He absorbs the Dragon Balls into his body, powering up. He fought equally against Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta, he was then defeated by Goku's Super Ultra Genki Dama."  FlatZone (talk) 13:32, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

here is proof so don't add that stupid "SS4 is = 10x SS" video game bullshit back FlatZone (talk) 13:51, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

This is proof of nothing. Disregarding the fact that this is an encyclopedia, and thus should present sourced statements and what happens in various iterations of the franchise without judgement or bias, 5x just means 5x stronger than what is normal for that form. See: Kaio-Ken and its usage with other forms. An attack doesn't have the same power regardless of transformations, that is absurd.
Orion (T-B-C) 14:00, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

That isn't proof either. 10x Kamehameha being proof of SS4 being only 10x SS in power is bs and not true at all. No pic, no source, no link. The same logic also applies to the tech being 10x stronger than normal when a SS4 uses it, and SS3 Goku uses the Kamehameha tech too. Until there is actually verifiable proof on it I am removing it to the trivia section, YOU stop edit warring. FlatZone (talk) 14:03, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

You're the one edit warring by reverting my dispute of your edit. I won't address this again until you stop edit warring.
Orion (T-B-C) 14:08, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

No proof. No source. No statements. No pic. It is faulty logic and I reported you for edit warring, when all I was doing was removing faulty information that at best could have been in the trivia section. FlatZone (talk) 14:22, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

Here's how edit warring actually works:
  1. Person A makes an edit.
  2. Person B reverts it. This is known as "disputing an edit".
  3. Person A is supposed to the talk page to get consensus for their disputed edit and leave the article as it was before their disputed edit. However, instead of doing that, A reverts the dispute, thus starting an edit war.
You started the edit war when you refused to come to the talk page and leave the article as it was before your disputed edit.
You are not the sole arbiter of what should or shouldn't be in an article. If someone disagrees with you, consensus is required. By refusing to follow the rules, you started the edit war.
Go ahead and report me all you want, but you're the one breaking the rules.
Orion (T-B-C) 14:31, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

Bring proof right now, a statement from the game SAYING that Super Saiyan 4 is 10x the power of Super Saiyan and not some crap logic interred faulty fan bullshit like "well since its called 10x Kamehameha that means its 10x the power of Super Saiyan"... NO, that only means it is 10x the normal power output of a Kamehama while in the Super Saiyan 4 form. FlatZone (talk) 14:40, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

I'll use Google to translate the official website since I don't speak Japanese - when I have the time. The site seems to make my browser unresponsive after a while, so it's gonna take some time. In the mean time, work on your attitude.
Orion (T-B-C) 14:54, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

Kanzenshuu has translated the official website for the most part, check their forums. Last I looked at it their was never, not ONCE a single statement or anything saying this. It is a fan only bs logic headcanon that somehow made its way onto this wikia. My attitude is in response to others. FlatZone (talk) 14:58, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

Do you have a direct link to their translations? I don't think I've used their forums before.
Your attitude toward me is unnecessarily rude when all I did was dispute an edit you made. You came here, posted an out-of-context complaint, and acted like everyone had the same information as you. Moreover, you acted like the very idea of having to explain yourself was insulting.
Orion (T-B-C) 15:09, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

I did catch an attitude over it because users on this wikia have done stuff like this just to do it, and sorry for taking that out on you. My apologies, but nothing I said was wrong because that information of SS4 = x10 SS is LITERALLY faulty head canon. I also don't have the bookmark for the translations anymore so I can't find the forum post for you man.

SS3 Unleashes the users Potential(Potential Unleashed)

"The form uses a Saiyan's full potential with power extracted from every drop of their blood.[8] This form draws the hidden power of its user out to its limits, however, it is flawed in that it possesses huge energy consumption.[9"]

Super Saiyan 4 also Unleashes the users Potential(Potential Unleashed)

"The Super Saiyan 4 form draws the power of its users up to its utmost limits.[5] "

"Saiyans are naturally able to draw their hidden power out to its limits using the Super Saiyan 3[5] and Super Saiyan 4[6] forms."

Super Saiyan 3 is base power x 400 + Potential Unleashed.

Super Saiyan 4 is base power x 400 x 10 + Potential Unleashed. FlatZone (talk) 15:34, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

I was unable to find any translation on Kanzenshuu. When using Google's translator, though, I came across this sentence: "なお、10倍龍拳は原作(DBGT)にはないオリジナル技だ". Can you translate it? Google's translator says something about a "tenfold dragonfly", which is nonsense, but offers alternatives such as "ten times in the original story", or something along those lines.
Orion (T-B-C) 19:46, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

That is talking about how 10 Fold Kamehameha is not in the original series though it is in DBGT. There is no 10 fold Dragon Fist so there is no other option for that. FlatZone (talk) 20:06, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

Eventually I understood what that statement was, and indeed it has no bearing to the claim. I am also unable to find the claim in the walkthrough and can't navigate the main website. In conclusion, unless anyone else has any complaints, I say go ahead and remove it.
Orion (T-B-C) 20:09, February 5, 2019 (UTC) "Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files states that "Strongest Form 2, which resembles Super Saiyan 3";[3] "

The perfect files clearly hints Super Baby Vegeta 2 is using SS3 but tufflized. He then goes Great Ape making it 10 fold more powerful. GGA is 10x SS3 and it even says it draws out the saiyans power to the utmost limits, same thing that is said about Super Saiyan 3. I am putting it back to how I just made it. FlatZone (talk) 20:33, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

You're leaving it as it was until consensus can be achieved, unless you want the article locked. I will wait until either the article is locked or you stop edit warring before addressing this.
Orion (T-B-C) 21:12, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

I will leave it alone, until a moderator chimes in. Don't get it confused, you are the one who was edit warring, only because you didn't LIKE the information added and that's just childish. FlatZone (talk) 21:22, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

I'm surprised you managed to wait even though the stuff I had to do took longer than I thought.
Great Ape is a 10x power-up from base form. That's what's been shown. Golden Great Ape seems to be a Great Ape gone Super Saiyan. Furthermore, the game that became the point of contention with your previous disputed edit states that Golden Great Ape Baby is only about 1.2 times stronger than "SS3" Baby.
At this point, without any official source supporting you, adding what you claim is just adding your speculation.
Orion (T-B-C) 22:59, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

I am not waiting for you, because I no longer care what YOU say, you have some weird issue with this sourced legit information. That outdated and bs ridden Video Game is not an official source. The Chouzenshuu's and the Perfect Guides for GT are. So again, it is not speculation, YOU are using speculation. If that's all you have then I am changing the info in 30 mins. FlatZone (talk) 23:08, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

You still don't understand what an encyclopedia is. The video game is just as much of a source as any other official source. Official statements are just that, official statements. They come from official sources; sources that have some relation to the IP. An encyclopedia's job is not to pick and choose, but simply to catalog the statements (and to provide the associated sources).
I don't have a problem with information, I have a problem with fan speculation being in articles. Fans are not official sources, no matter how much you believe yourself to be right.
Continue to edit war if you wish, but I'd advise against it. It's not going to end well for you.
Orion (T-B-C) 23:13, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

So now you saying an old ass video game that is outdated outweights the Chouzenshuu and the GT Perfect Guides?? Are you on something?? It's not fan speculation, it is literally sourced on the talk page, everything I brought up was sourced. YOU are struggling so hard to use that outdated VIDEO GAME info as being more correct than the actual official guides themselves. That is quite laughable. This is not a head canon wikia, go to one of those other wikias ran by 12 year olds who make shit up, you'll like it there as you can use outdated and old video games as a source that overides actual official sources and they'll love that shit, but news flash buster.. that's not how this wikia works. We prioritize the Official Statements, Source Material, and Guidebook sources over old outdated videogames. If you don't like that, that's a you issue. Keep edit warring for nothing, that's all you. FlatZone (talk) 23:19, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

No, I'm saying what I wrote, that an encyclopedia simply compiles statements from official sources without mixing them together to draw conclusions and without picking and choosing which ones to include. Again, see Wikipedia.
Do either of those sources you claim contain this information actually say "Super Saiyan 4 is 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3", or is that just you mixing them together? If it's the former, then surely you can quote it, with a page number and paragraph.
Orion (T-B-C) 23:25, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

Do I really need to walk you through this?? SBV2 (SS3 Baby Vegeta) went into GGA(10x Power boost) just to be almost equal to SS4 Goku. SS4 JUST like SS3 brings the users power to its utmost limits(not possible without SS3's x400 multiplier added into the equation because SS's x50 is not the utmost limit of the Super Saiyan forms). Great Ape gives a 10x power boost. So what is x400 x10? thats x4000. FlatZone (talk) 23:32, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

So it's just you mixing different things together. Thanks for playing. Your fan speculation is not going on the article.
Orion (T-B-C) 23:39, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

It's not mixing different things together, they are terms and facts taken from the specific guidebooks shown and sourced, why would they change at all just because you don't like them?? It's been established for a long time that Ozaru is a 10x power boost. SS3 is not only a 400x power boost(sourced) but a potential unlock(sourced) and the same phrase used for SS3(utmost limits) is used for SS4. SS4 is hybridized with the Ozaru form(10x power boost), so what happens when the utmost limits of saiyan power(SS3) gets mixed with Ozaru? it's SS3 x10. The only one disputing it is you, it's going in the article in a week and you'll get over it, bud. FlatZone (talk) 23:55, February 5, 2019 (UTC)

You've got no proof for anything you say. You're extrapolating based on statements from different sources, no different from the guys who make up power levels. That's fan speculation, plain and simple.
Orion (T-B-C) 08:39, February 6, 2019 (UTC)

Wrong again hahaha. One week and it's changing :) FlatZone (talk) 11:38, February 6, 2019 (UTC)

Then show me the direct quote "Super Saiyan 4 is ten times more powerful than Super Saiyan 3", if indeed you're not just conflating different sources and drawing your own conclusions (i.e.: speculating).
It's not going on the article until consensus is achieved, and if consensus can't be achieved, it's most likely staying as it is. I'd prepare myself for disappointment if I were you.
Orion (T-B-C) 11:49, February 6, 2019 (UTC)

You can't put interred factual information together? That's sad. If you can't prove it wrong by the end of the week then it's going in. You'll just have to get over it. FlatZone (talk) 12:24, February 6, 2019 (UTC)

@FlatZone actually if a consensus hasn't been reached within a week then no it won't, also other people have to weigh in on this and everyone has to agree before it can go on the article. Now from this 'civil' conversation I have to agree with Orion you haven't provided any evidence that proves Golden Great Ape is 10x Super Saiyan 3 (I know Great Ape is 10x Base Form), the only time we have a stated multiplier for Golden Great Ape is from the same game that said Super Saiyan 4 was 10x that of a Super Saiyan, which going by the list of power levels is true for Goku if he had achieved SS4 after achieving Super Saiyan on Namek and I say that because in that game SS4 1,500,000,000 which is 10x his power level as a Super Saiyan on Namek which go by Daizenshuu 7 is 150,000,000. Also you haven't provided any sources that proves anything you have been saying really except for Baby Vegeta's Strongest form 2 being equivalent to Super Saiyan 3. If we go by the Super Exciting Guide Super Saiyan 3 is only 400x base form. According to the game that you removed the "according to" from this article Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta is only around 1.2x stronger then Baby Vegeta Strongest Form 2, so if Baby Vegeta Strongest form 2 is the equivalent to SS3 then your multiplier for Golden Great Ape being stronger than SS3 is wrong. Also I think you was in the wrong for removing the info you removed from the article dealing with according to that game since it is official licensed media. @Orion I would wait for other people to add their two cents since you and Flatzone are getting no where. Also Flatzone you don't want us to re-add what you removed (which was the start of this edit war) and you 'provide proof' but in the form of a game exclusive move that the picture for the article is of Super Saiyan Goku not Super Saiyan 4 Goku, how does that proof that Super Saiyan 4 isn't 10x stronger than Super Saiyan. 5x Kamehameha is only 5x stronger than either Super Kamehameha or Kamehameha, so it doesn't prove anything. Ok while I haven't found anything to either prove or disprove (minus the translation from the walkthrough) that SS4 is 10x stronger than SS, I say we let someone who either has the game that does edit on here and speaks both English and Japanese weigh in on that part of the conversation before we remove it again (since Flatzone didn't wait for anyone else to weigh in on it after Orion in a manner of speaking gave him the go ahead). I have looked for proof besides the translation of Goku's SS4 part of the walkthrough and haven't turned up shit. Hell I can only find the power levels for the people you fight in the game.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  03:18,2/7/2019 

If any editing is done on the article before a consensus is reached from both sides of this issue. The article will be locked again, this time even longer then before. Don't edit the article while this is still going. --0551E80Y (talk) 04:47, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

0551E80Y I only re-added something that was removed before a consensus was reached, while one was reached between the two of them Flatzone didn't give anyone else time to weigh in.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  04:57,2/7/2019 
If I was talking specifically to you Goku20, I would have added a colon before starting my paragraph. I was talking in general to all users. --0551E80Y (talk) 06:11, February 7, 2019 (UTC)
Goku20, I gave FlatZone the go ahead because I was the only one who'd contested his edit. Since nobody else was contesting it, it's only natural that the edit would go on the article afterward.
Orion (T-B-C) 09:01, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, edit warring is bad. Nice job working it out guys. My preference would be to avoid our own cross-source math and conclusions, and instead simply directly quote sources as much as possible. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 09:06, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

Then it's time to go and clean up SSGSS and Legendary Super Saiyan pages, because they are filled with "cross-sourced" informationand other interred information that you all don't seem to want here. The information I took  for this came from all the Databooks. WHY would any of the terms or multipliers be officially changed between Databooks?? Answer is they wouldn't and that old and outdated game has no precendece over the actual databooks, nor the series itself. Its power levels it made up are also completely laughable bs lol

GGA is GA and the power of SS combined, SS4 is the utmost limits of a Saiyans power, SS3 is the utmost limits of a Saiyans power. Super Saiyan 4 is a hybrid form of what again? Great Ape. How does this not make sense to you all?? FlatZone (talk) 15:18, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that Chouzenshuu 4 says Super Saiyan 4 is the ultimate form, not the Super Saiyan God form. As I have shown and that was removed too. FlatZone (talk) 15:22, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

and to be clear, that videogame holdings nothing, not a damn thing over the Pefect Files Guidebooks, or the Chouzenshuu, or the Daizenshuu. The page you all are saying might have info on it? That's a fan made guide. The info about SS4 being 10x SS is fan made BS using info from an old outdated videogame with some added powerlevels that made no sense at all. By the end of the week, if there is no real debunking and no real argument against it I am going to add the information.. and if there is an issue at that point then it comes down to you 3 being biased against me as a user, and that's literally it. FlatZone (talk) 18:34, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

@Flatzone unless we all come to an agreement to let that be removed and your other edit be added back then no it won't, how can you not understand that. Now I will say that as it stands right now I am all for removing the info about SS4 suppose to be 10x stronger than SS, but we need to give other people a chance to weigh in on this and see if any of them have proof that the game does say that. Also it doesn't matter if the game is outdated it is still officially licensed media, if we done what you want to do then we would have to remove info that we got from the Diazenshuu and other guide books and the manga (at least for DB and Z) because of the them being outdated. On the Daizenshuu and the other guide books only the ones that the info has changed in because well I have seen some info that has changed like Turles being Goku's brother. @Orion I know why you gave him the go ahead and what I meant by in a manner of speaking is that while you did you also said "unless anyone else has any complaints, I say go ahead and remove it." @0551E80Y I know that I was just letting you know why I did. Flatzone 10xKamehameha said "our own cross-sourced math and conclusions" not that we didn't want info that is actually from multiple different sources on the articles. He literally meant that we don't want fan-made multipliers, also terms and multipliers can be changed in a more recent guide book because the writers forgot they already wrote. I think some terms and multipliers did change in the guide books. Flatzone I say we wait and see if Neffyarious to say anything about the SS4 being 10x stronger than SS since he was the one who added it.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  19:43,2/7/2019 

Clearly they are ignoring this. I already informed them of it and they haven't said a single thing, showing they don't care at all either way. So without proof to debunk it there is no reason not to go ahead with the changes. FlatZone (talk) 19:23, February 8, 2019 (UTC)

Literally everyone is against adding your fan speculation. That's all the reason needed not to go ahead with the changes.
I advise you to reconsider if willingly breaking the rules is worth (temporarily) getting your fan speculation on an article. It'll be quickly removed afterward, as it should be, but your ban won't be lifted.
Orion (T-B-C) 21:59, February 8, 2019 (UTC)

I never said I wouldn't wait until the week was over. The only reason you don't want the info added and the videogame ss4 is 10x ss bs removed is because you don't like it, and that's not a real reason. So if you don't find any actual proof to debunk it by the time the week is over then you all have no actual reason to revert changes to come. Find proof against it before the week time limit is over and it won't be added, don't find any proof and it will be added. If you still refuse the facts then that is user bias against me. Solve your personal issues before trying to take them out on me. FlatZone (talk) 14:09, February 9, 2019 (UTC)

If they don't chime in by the time the week limit is up they clearly don't care. I saw them active on here and that shows they don't give two shits. So waiting for them will be pointless. FlatZone (talk) 14:11, February 9, 2019 (UTC)

That's not how consensus works. People are against your changes, so they won't be made. It's that simple.
Orion (T-B-C) 17:26, February 9, 2019 (UTC)

Only one actually against it is you, and you aren't an admin or more than 1 person and you have failed to bring any proof whatsoever to debunk the information.. literally all you are saying is "I don't like it and I don't want you to add it". FlatZone (talk) 22:55, February 9, 2019 (UTC)

What do you think you're going to accomplish by lying about what is plainly visible? Of the 5 people who commented here (you, me, Goku20, 0551E80Y, and 10X Kamehameha), one is for it (you, obviously), one hasn't expressed any opinion (0551E80Y), and three are explicitly against it (me, Goku20, and 10X Kamehameha). Nobody besides you has supported your edits.
I also refer you to what 0551E80Y said - that if this article is edited before consensus is achieved, it'll be locked again.
Orion (T-B-C) 23:44, February 9, 2019 (UTC)

They didn't say they were against it, they said they wanted Nef to check it and he clearly doesn't give two shits one way or another. FlatZone (talk) 12:52, February 10, 2019 (UTC)

Tomorrow makes one week, not one shred of actual proof to debunk this and not one person besides you actually is against it. Nef and the other admins don't care one way or another. So unless something is chimed in before tomorrow afternoon then it is going in the article. Are you moderators even going to be paying attention to this?? FlatZone (talk) 19:39, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

An admin has already told you that unless consensus is achieved, editing the article will just get it locked again.
This is not about other people convincing you that your edit shouldn't go on the article. That's not how it works. This is about you convincing other people that your edit should go on the article. You've done nothing of the sort.
Orion (T-B-C) 19:45, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

I read it already and after I replied, he asked that I wait for Nef to respond. Nef clearly doesn't care whatsoever, literally all we were waiting for was Nef and that's a lost cause. So with nothing to debunk it and NOBODY with actual proof to debunk it. It comes down to YOU being a stubborn person who simply doesn't like the info, and that's literally the only reason you actually have. Not my fault you dislike SS4, or the chouzenshuu, or the daizenshuu, or the gt perfect files.. that's a you issue and you need to work on that and stop coming onto this wikia and attempting to take it out on me. FlatZone (talk) 20:04, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

SS4 is my favorite Super Saiyan transformation. Before you accuse someone else of being biased, I suggest you look in the mirror.
Your attitude has nothing to do with me; this is about you not being able to take "No" for an answer. This is about you being too self-righteous to even consider the possibility that other people might be opposing you because you are wrong to do the things you want to do.
Orion (T-B-C) 20:12, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Now slow you roll, I see NOTHING wrong in his posts. I come back and this is what I see. I have just looked at Flatz sources and posts. There is cross information in SSGSS, LSS etc.. so why is it a problem now on the SS4 page?? The multipliers, terms and information wouldn't change between databooks unless it is specified so HOW and WHERE is FlatZone wrong?? Also, FlatZone you need to chill, you may be right but you are going to get another warning if you let Orion get to you, again... and you are right it looks like Neffyarious doesn't care at all what the verdict on this is so why the hell are you all still waiting for him?? Tomorrow one week is up and I don't disagree with any of the information Flat wants change on the page. Also why is it such an issue for you to debunk the info @Orion? If you can then do it, if you can't then move on dude this is ridiculous. QuakingStar (talk) 20:23, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

I didn't see that information being put up in other articles. If I had, I'd have challenged it as well. If you want to chastise me for not being omniscient, I don't know what to say. Furthermore, 10X Kamehameha already said he agrees with me about how cross information shouldn't be used to reach conclusions in the article. Disregarding the fact that votes are not consensus, if we were to take a vote, this is still an even split.
It's not on me to prove him wrong. Look up Russel's Teapot.
Orion (T-B-C) 20:32, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
     If a vote is all it takes to put this to rest... then I vote in favor of FlatZone's proposed changes then.
     GuerillaTech (talk) 20:50, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

FINALLY. I appreciate another user chiming in, thank you.. but don't call me Flatz please. So that's 2 versus 1 with the mods wanting to wait for Nef.. which he obviously doesn't care one way or another so why the hell are we waiting for him @admins. FlatZone (talk) 20:27, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

@FlatZone Ok.. QuakingStar (talk) 20:29, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Well that's 3 users now... FlatZone (talk) 21:05, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Uh uh. This site does not make decisions using majority rules. We come to a consensus. Look that word up. Until a consensus is reached, I will repeatedly undo your edit that has already been disputed numerous times. Follow the rules instead of causing unnecessary issues. As for the issue at hand, I respectfully side with Orion. ExyleCage (talk) 21:15, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

I don't mean to sound paranoid, but that GerillaTech person came out of nowhere to support you. It's literally their first edit on this wiki.
Orion (T-B-C) 21:18, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

      Orion... Is there anything wrong with lurking on said wiki until now? Or are you suggesting something else since I didn't side with you?As for you Exley, how about you stop giving out patronizing advice you seemingly aren't taking yourself? You all seem to only follow rules that benefit you in the moment instead of following them all it seems. If an article like this is riddled with "facts" that can't be proven, then it should be updated to reflect the standards that wiki aspires to maintain. GuerillaTech (talk) 21:31, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with lurking. I'm just pointing out it's odd that a lurker would randomly drop in on a discussion, on either side. It's usually a sign of an alt, or an acquaintance who has no idea what's going on and just came to support someone they know.
I've seen it happen before on other websites to pretend someone's suggestion is more popular than it really is, which is why some websites have an activity requirement before you can chime in on discussions like this. However, I don't think this one does, so I'm left with finding it odd that you'd randomly decide to drop in.
Orion (T-B-C) 21:47, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

         I've been watching this go one for some time now. We're all fans here and I bet you've been a DB fan since you were a small child. You're not impartial to this discussion and it seems that it's your modus operandi on this wiki. If something isn't right, I can only stay quiet for so long. GuerillaTech (talk) 21:57, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

I actually am impartial because unlike FlatZone, I have no personal investment in this. I like SS4 and I've no idea who FlatZone is outside this discussion because I don't remember our interactions.
FlatZone, on the other hand, seems to have a low opinion of me and has repeatedly accused me of being biased because he's projecting his own biases onto me.
Anyway, this is not relevant to the discussion. While FlatZone has done absolutely nothing except alienate everyone who dares disagree with him, I'm willing to judge whatever sources he can scrounge up on their own merits. Note how I supported his removal of the video game information because the only source we had made no such statement. FlatZone cannot say the same, given his dismissal of everything and everyone that disagrees with him.
If FlatZone has a singular source that says what he claims, then he's free to present it.
Orion (T-B-C) 22:04, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
You might have missed it. Scroll up, his sources are visible. I'm still not quite sure on why this proposed change is so fought against to begin with if the groundwork was already layed out. You said you like SS4 so you should naturally be in favor of such a change instead of against it. GuerillaTech (talk) 22:13, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
I said singular source. He has sources, plural. That's the whole basis for this disagreement, in case you've forgotten. He wants to draw conclusions from information gathered over multiple sources, and then put his conclusions (and his alone) on the wiki's articles, to be presented as sourced statements. I do not, because they're not. They're his conclusions, based on his headcanon.
There is no single source that says what he wants the article to say. He wants to pick and choose based on what he considers are valid sources. Headcanon all the way down.
To be in favor of this change just because I like SS4 is the very definition of bias. I thought being biased was bad. Or is that only when it doesn't suit you?
Orion (T-B-C) 22:18, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
If anything multiple sources further favors his argument. Here's the real question then. Where are your sources that contradict what he has said and shown? The fact that statements on this page, in it's current form, he (and you) already is arguing about lacks real sources... they, in fact, should be rectified. I see no headcanon flying around here. And yes, your bias is showing. Your disregard for information and being adamant on this very topic is proof enough. It's suiting you enough right now, isn't it? GuerillaTech (talk) 22:29, February 11, 2019 (UTC)
Let me give you a little history lesson, since clearly you weren't lurking as you claimed before or else you'd know the basics for this disagreement: he has two different sources, each with a single statement, but neither of which is the statement he wants to add to the article. He is drawing a personal conclusion based on those individual statements from different sources and wants that personal conclusion to go on the article. That is the problem with his edits. That is why people are opposing his edits.
It's not on me to prove him wrong. See Russel's Teapot.
Orion (T-B-C) 22:35, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Wrong again. I've seen the whole thing including your comments thinking that later sources aren't worth more than info given by videogames. About your sources comment, you can't dismiss evidence based on multiple sources and there isn't a requirement that presented info be given by one source alone. that's not how a wiki works. You should know that. If you have nothing other than personal opinion to dispute SS4 and how its power level is presented, then you have no choice but to allow the edit and move on. Like i've said before: he's done the work. He's given evidence. His reasoning is sound. GuerillaTech (talk) 22:56, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Of course you've seen the whole thing. How foolish of me to judge based on your demonstrated lack of knowledge of the subject.
The point of contention, again, is not his reasoning, but the fact that he wants his reasoning to be put on the article as if it were sourced information, which it is not. No matter how much you argue, that's not going to change.
Orion (T-B-C) 23:23, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

It is sourced as you and I can clearly see. Don't try to dismiss anything since it's all visible to every person reading this page. No matter how much you wish it was otherwise, you're going to have to deal with it like an adult. And I still don't see you proving otherwise. But hey, that seems to be your track record on about everything. GuerillaTech (talk) 23:28, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

I see two different sources that FlatZone is conflating. Then I see FlatZone trying to get his personal conclusions put on the article. I also see FlatZone dismissing the necessity for consensus when an edit is challenged, as his are.
It's not on me to prove him wrong. See Russel's Teapot.
Orion (T-B-C) 23:30, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

You use conflating as if it has got a negative connotation... almost like you're trying to dismiss what he's wrote and concluded based on official sources. You challenged his edit with a shaky response and edit warred with him. You act like you own this place when you know well enough that posting to the talk page, then talking to admins are the first step. You have been in the wrong. The fact that you can't assert actual reason into why his logic and sources are flawed is actually more than enough reason for it to go up. The fact that you also reverted without consensus first says wonders about how much control you think you have over this wiki. But hey, rules for you are only applied when it's in your own favor, right? GuerillaTech (talk) 23:43, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

And while we're at it, you keep bringing up Russel's Teapot on why you can't possibly be responsible for proving him wrong. False. let's grab a quote from wikipedia. "Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context of religion.[1] He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot, too small to be seen by telescopes, orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong."

Let's check that again. Has he given proof? check. does his logic add up? check. can math factor in to prove his point? also check. Unless you can counter everything given, including logic, you have no right to dismiss what he's brought forward. GuerillaTech (talk) 23:47, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Ok Neffy hasn't edited last I checked for a while which means that going by that he hasn't been active since his last edit, and I said we wait for him because he is the one who added the whole Super Saiyan 4 is 10x stronger than Super Saiyan. Now from what I have seen with Flatzone's sources while the info would probably be consistent in all of them his calculations aren't exactly allowed because he takes info from his sources and does the calculation instead, like Golden Great Ape being 10x stronger than SS3 which the only stated multiplier for GGA is how strong Baby Vegeta is in the form compared to Strongest Form 2 (which is stated as being the equivalent of SS3) which is 1.2x stronger, his math is completely cross-sourced which isn't allowed because we don't have a source that can prove it and the sources we do have that could either say other wise or doesn't say a thing. @Flatzone if Orion or anyone else hadn't replied with in a week of your first post then and only then would you have been allowed to remake your edit, since Orion did reply you have to wait until a consensus is reached before you can either remake the edits or not. I am completely against the cross-sourced math and conclusions, so unless you can provide a source that exactly says GGA is 10x stronger than SS3 and any of the rest of what you're saying then you might as well just concede to having it in the article, because it won't be. @GuerillaTech while some of his info is sourced the multipliers are not entirely correct so therefore his math is wrong.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  00:19,2/12/2019 

While I am at this let me ask some questions. Has any source been provided that states that his logic is correct? No. Does his logic matter to the wiki if the info isn't stated in an officially licensed source? No. Does his math come out to the right answer with his multipliers that it would with the officially stated multipliers? No. So as you can see we only care about what has been officially stated we don't care about someone's cross-sourced math and the logic they used to come up with the stuff, if you or Flatzone or anyone else who agrees with you two has a "officially licensed" source that states GGA is 10x stronger than SS3 and the rest of what has been said by Flatzone than provided it and this can finally have a consensus.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  00:19,2/12/2019 

Also waiting on Neffy does matter with one part of the issue, because if he has the info we need to prove or disprove without a shadow of a doubt that SS4 is 10x stronger than SS then we need that info.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  00:23,2/12/2019 

It wouldn't prove a damn thing. It's an old video game and at best its trivia. Great Ape is x10. SS3 is x400. SS3 is utmost limits of Saiyan Power, SS4 is utmost limits of Saiyan Power. All of this comes from databooks and guidebooks. I see now that you prefer videogame bullshit more though, even though it's worth far less than the actual guidebook and databooks. You both are also not an admin or moderator so stop acting like one. FlatZone (talk) 01:39, February 12, 2019 (UTC)

The video game is still "officially" licensed media and is the only time that we have a stated power level for SS4, and I literally don't give a shit about video game bullshit more I care more about what has been "officially" stated and everything you just said about the multipliers was but GGA and SS4 haven't had "officially" licensed guidebook multipliers stated so therefore GGA can't be 10x SS3 and we don't even know if SS4 is 10x stronger than SS. Did you Flatzone play the damn game you are saying is wrong? If not than you can't know for sure about what is said in it. I am a rollback which is part of the enforcement team. Also I want to wait for the admin who actually added the damn SS4 is 10x stronger than SS so we can find out for sure if the damn info is true or not. Unless you can provide a source that says GGA is 10x SS3 and that SS4 isn't 10x stronger than SS none of your edits will be going back until everyone is in agreement, which means that they won't be going back until someone provides "one" source that states your info is true about GGA being 10x stronger than SS3 and that SS4 isn't 10x stronger than SS. We aren't acting like admins we are stating the damn rules, so unless you want to risk you being allowed to edit I would recommend following the rules.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  01:57,2/12/2019 

FlatZone, I assume your silence means you've acquiesced?

Orion (T-B-C) 14:46, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

You assumed wrong, as always. The admin asked to wait for Nef to chime in, so I am. FlatZone (talk) 16:26, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

Strongest Form 2 couldn’t be SS3 because Vegeta does not possess that ability, if it were it, would be called strongest form 3, not 2. In GT this form doesn’t appear to have any connection to the main Super Saiyan lines as he achieves both Strongest form 1 and 2 essentially at the same time. As it is only the second transformation in his unique line this would make it more akin to a Super Saiyan 2 transformation but with an uncertain multiplier. This form should not be used to determine normal Saiyans use of the GGA as Baby Vegeta’s is obviously very different.

Other than Baby what other reasons make you think SS4 is 4000x base instead of 500 FlatZone? Chrome0X (talk) 23:19, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with FlatZone, never thought I'd say those words, SS4 should be counted as a 10xSS3 increase for the following:

Starting with simple reasoning, the tail completed SS3 making it much easier to maintain. The full Great Ape transformation would more than likely draw upon the full potential of a Super Saiyan, which is SS3's multiplier.

SS4 draws upon the Saiyans potential to the utmost limits. How can it draw on the power to the utmost limit if it doesn't use the full SS multiplier? You could hardly call it the ultimate form otherwise.

Furthermore apparently Baby's SF2 is his version of SS3, he doesn't leave this form before becoming a GGA meaning he is using the form in conjunction with GA. This means Goku would've had to be 10XSS3 to even have a prayer against Baby. If you're wondering why they became equal with Baby in GGA and Goku in SS4 this is because(like Goku Black) Baby could not draw upon the full power of Vegeta's saiyan body which is also why he is unable to shrink it down to become a SS4. TL;DR: SS4 =10XSS3. Chrome0X (talk) 00:29, February 17, 2019 (UTC)

I don't have the source, it's been ages since I saw it, feel free to remove the SS4 is 10x SS. I disagree with adding a fan-made multiplier to the page. --Neffyarious (talk) 18:24, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

THANK YOU. I'm removing it now. FlatZone (talk) 18:26, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

This confirms what I thought in the first place.

Flat, I am going to have to ask you to keep the discussion of this issue on one article talk page, not two and not on an admin's talk page either, its going to get real hard to keep track of this if you keep doing it this way. So I'm going to lock this article again for a while and move what is said here to, the the golden great ape talk page as that is the focus here, not the ssj4 form.  0551E80Y (talk) 22:29, April 14, 2019 (UTC)

more info from heroes on Super Saiyan 4

Super Saiyan 4 also unlocks the users latent power and the users true power.

Also this confirms the GT timeline is not the Xeno Timeline. FlatZone (talk) 04:39, June 2, 2019 (UTC)

This info is not new, we already knew from Perfect Files. No it does not confirm that, and this talk page is not the appropriate place for that claim anyway. --Neffyarious (talk) 16:56, June 2, 2019 (UTC)

Bringing out the true power of the Saiyan is not on the page. Unlocking the users latent power is not on the page. Concerning the timeline, Also it does because Robel makes it clear with "native to this timeline", not "native to your timeline" when speaking to Gohan Xeno. FlatZone (talk) 17:02, June 2, 2019 (UTC)

The page does say "Draws the power of saiyan to its utmost limit". --Neffyarious (talk) 18:53, June 2, 2019 (UTC)


Since I'm not allowed to edit the other thread for some reason, here is this.

" Super Saiyan 4 is a type which first appears in GT, which only Goku with his tail can transform into. Its outward appearance is also completely different than the other types, with red body fur and black hair, and it is currently the strongest Saiyan form. They return to normal when they receive large damage. "

only Goku  WITH HIS TAIL. Key words here are With and his and tail. In GT His tail is the reason he can transform to and from the form without Blutz waves FlatZone (talk) 04:39, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

for the power level part FlatZone (talk) 16:43, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

I hate to tell you this, but one must have a tail to become a SSJ4. As for the power level thing, that was just a guess by Bulma and not a proven thing. If that were the case, Vegeta wouldn't have been able to become a SSJ4 with or without blutz waves. So next time, keep that stuff in the fanon site you contribute to.Rogeta234 (talk) 17:24, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

The tail part, you literally just repeated what I said. In GT a tail is a requirement. In GT a high enough power level is a requirement. It was stated and shown already, so if you want to come on here and cry to me and be a smart ass, then go disappear for weeks at a time like you usually do. Or hop in the instant chat with me so I can tell you exactly what you need to hear. FlatZone (talk) 17:31, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Watch yourself, little boy. You know I could have your butt reported just for saying that. Anyway, where do you want me to "instant chat" with you? Rogeta234 (talk) 19:08, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Tournament chat, little bud. FlatZone (talk) 20:11, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Just tried it out. Not really my cup of tea. Rogeta234 (talk) 20:23, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

SS4 and Half Saiyans who never had tails

Future Trunks Xeno was going to get SS4 if not for them being indecisive on his hair color for it, meaning that half Saiyans who weren't born with Tails can still acquire the transformation. FlatZone (talk) 07:27, January 7, 2020 (UTC)

Child to adult transformation

"The form's power is too great to be utilized by a child and so a child user is aged into an adult when using it."

This quote is sourced from a Kanzenshuu interview from Chris Bevins, a Funimation director. Should this really be considered a GT canon source? Ryan(talk) 01:50, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

The funimation director won't just make stuff up without something to go off of. I'm pretty sure he was told by GT's animators whatever information he has. So it's fine to be used. FlatZone (talk) 03:10, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

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