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Berserk appearance

As said by Caulifla in episode 101, Kale can enter the Super Saiyan state without going berserk, implying that is another transformation related to Super Saiyan Berserk, but it's not the same thing. Usually, a transformation has only one appearance, not two. Also, Kale powered up to SSB to finish off the Pride Troopers, this is just another form like Super Saiyan A-Type, not the same thing. Yon!米津愛主!Golden Frieza artVisit my talk page! 22:15, July 31, 2017 (UTC)

  • I do agree that we could have two pages for Kale's unique Super Saiyan forms. I was thinking that the more normal form could be referred to as "Super Saiyan Green" (to follow Super's naming scheme), while the Broly-like form could remain as Super Saiyan Berserk. (at least until we get proper names).--Neffyarious (talk) 11:43, August 1, 2017 (UTC)

Super Saiyan Green name

I just wanted to know, is it official? GuKeltke (talk) 19:39, August 5, 2017 (UTC)

  • The page notes it's not in the infobox. It's just a title we'll use until we get a proper one.--Neffyarious (talk) 20:10, August 5, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly dumb name, expecially when the pic being used doesn't even show a green coloration. Not sure what this wikis facination is with making up names. Shouldve just been left at Super Saiyan Berserk (mastered) until more information is gathered. That is the less speculative name.J spencer93 (talk) 23:33, August 5, 2017 (UTC)

Eh, fits with DB Super's naming scheme for new transformations. Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan God was once called "Super Saiyan Red", and also to a lesser extent Golden Frieza. I agree with you but it goes with Super's naming trend. It also kinda fits Masako X's theory as well. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 21:06, August 8, 2017 (UTC)


It does indeed fit with the new naming scheme for Super Saiyan forms. However, her aura is a pure golden color and her hair isn't really green. calling it a regular Super Saiyan seems best for now. By all appearances, that's what this form is. Faiquan (talk) 05:34, August 11, 2017 (UTC)


I think it being called Super Saiyan Green is kind of dumb. It has a slight green tint sure, but it's more yellow than green for the most part and has less green in it than Broly. or Kale's berserk form. I think for now it'd be best to just call it Super Saiyan (Kale) and describe it as a unique Super Saiyan form for Kale. Gildeds (talk) 05:29, August 12, 2017 (UTC)


I agree with what with faiquan and Gildeds suggestion, This form as the regular ssj aura and the hair has green tint at best but isn't that green as opposed to broly's hair. I suggest we call it ssj or ssk(kale) something like that if we want a separte page instead of super saiyan green which even though it is simillar to other naming instances in dbs i wouldn't call the form that. Cheamte (talk) 07:56, August 12, 2017 (UTC)



All right, just to clear it up, the hair is green. It's just the picture has the glow reflecting on her hair that made it shining yellow somewhat.  If you look at when Caulifla and Kale were clashing energy waves, her hair was greeen. Plus, the artwork confirms that it is supposed to be this way so.......it can be considered to be just as green as the Berserk form. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 04:34, August 14, 2017 (UTC)


Kale's hair does have a slight green tint to it, not a particularly strong tint. Furthermore, when she is in her aura the hair looks pure golden. Toei Animation's biography on kale states that she does indeed have a standard Super Saiyan form. This must be itFaiquan (talk) 07:01, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Faiquan on it. it is just the normal ssj form for kale. we have watched 103 episodes of super its not like they are going to explain the state she was in. it is just kale ssj because it said in her profile she can go berserk and normal ssj. there is no reason to invent names with no ofificial bases whatsoever just because ssgss was changed to ssb or ssj rose which was named after the wine not the color (beerus in one episode said something like it sound delicious the name). Therfore lets just call it ssj for now and if dragon ball heroes or something decide to name it diffrently lets change it, but as of now there is no reason to invent names like this which are also not correct context wise because her hair was the ordinary ssj one. Cheamte (talk) 08:45, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

It's traits are different from a normal SS, so it gets a page. This temporary name will be used until we get a proper one.--Neffyarious (talk) 23:11, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

He said it, not me. I can show you what picture I'm referecing to prove it to you.

Kale muscle 37

Super Saiyan (left) clearly looks different to Super Saiyan Green (right)

See? It's way greener than the Super Saiyan form, that shows that it isn't yellow at all. Want me to show you another picture? Fine.

Kale muscle 36

Super Saiyan is yellow, while Super Saiyan Green is green. See?

See? It is unique, has more muscle, and therefore is a page. Plus, it is green. Less green than the Berserk form but green. We have done this before. We create pages and invent names for them before official media names them any. Before Divine Lasso got a name, it was called Violent Fierce God Rending Dance, before Super Saiyan Rosé, it was called Super Saiyan Rose. So what's the problem with this form? It doesn't matter what temporary name we give any of them. Because eiher way, we'll change it to whatever the games or any offical media names it. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 00:24, August 15, 2017 (UTC)

Renaming

This page needs to be renamed immediately. It's embarrassing that it hasn't been for this long.

-TUN 01:27, August 18, 2017 (UTC)

Own Page

This is just regluar super saiyan for kale....why does it have its own page? And again, it isn't even green. Seriously, the wiki is getting cluttered with this speculation named crap. Make a note on the Super Saiyan page until this gets some kind of official name. J spencer93 (talk) 17:11, August 18, 2017 (UTC) 

Look at my pictures you (sigh) I can't even remotely describe how dumb you make yourself. You know what, I'm going to SHOW YOU WHAT I POSTED BEFORE YOU ******

It's traits are different from a normal SS, so it gets a page. This temporary name will be used until we get a proper one.--Neffyarious (talk) 23:11, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

He said it, not me. I can show you what picture I'm referecing to prove it to you.

Kale muscle 37

Super Saiyan (left) clearly looks different to Super Saiyan Green (right)

See? It's way greener than the Super Saiyan form, that shows that it isn't yellow at all. Want me to show you another picture? Fine.

Kale muscle 36

Super Saiyan is yellow, while Super Saiyan Green is green. See?

See? It is unique, has more muscle, and therefore is a page. Plus, it is green. Less green than the Berserk form but green. We have done this before. We create pages and invent names for them before official media names them any. Before Divine Lasso got a name, it was called Violent Fierce God Rending Dance, before Super Saiyan Rosé, it was called Super Saiyan Rose. So what's the problem with this form? It doesn't matter what temporary name we give any of them. Because eiher way, we'll change it to whatever the games or any offical media names it. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 00:24, August 15, 2017 (UTC)

Somehow missed the conversation above. That is my fault. Not sure it really validated your childish response, but oh well. Anyways, I would've postd about Divine Lasson being called that if i had seen it (who the hell even thought that one up?) Calling it SS Green still doesn't sit right with me but if it's been decided, its decided. No real reason to be an ass about it.

Actually...after reading above I am even more confused. Everyone but one person said they didn't like the name...so why is it being used? Do we not go by the popular vote anymore? Like, can anyone answer this beside the foul mouthed Broly fan? 

J spencer93 (talk) 08:57, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

THe reason no one is changing it is becuase no one is complaining about it anymore because they stopped and agreed with something. I would refer you to Neffy's talk page. To quote what he said in which everyone is now keeping is because  " I was considering the name Super Saiyan (Kale) - and had it as that pages name previously - but it's awkward on pages, and just sorta bad. Super Saiyan Green is in the best interest compared to other names - as it is a simple name. " and also refer to this quote " It surprises me that people get all worked up over a minor temporary name, 10X is also fine with the temp name so it's gonna stay. I locked the page because I was asked to."  You see, it is the least speculative name because as said by Neffy, the other names are bad and very awkward. Still don't agree, look at the talk page and go to the latest section. Look man, I'm not pissed because I'm a "foul-mouthed Broly fan". It's because whenever someone's complaining about an already outdated complaint that was already solved, I have to repeat over and over and over that it's solved and the reason behind it. It's very tiring, especially for the admin. So, could you do us favor and spread this out once you realize why this had to be made? I mean, I'm sure a name would be made eventually. Thanks. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 03:42, August 28, 2017 (UTC)

Super Saiyan (Kale) is fine. Also...pretty sure its required you sign your post. Also, I got it just fine without your rant. Neffyraious did a fine job replying. J spencer93 (talk) 22:41, August 26, 2017 (UTC)

Name

So can I just go ahead and rename this to something that isn't completely ridiculous?

-TUN 21:19, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, ask the admin. I don't want to argue about this anymore. Plus, they're the ones who locked the page in the first place. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 22:01, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

I won't change it myself but I don't particularly agree with this name. I know it's all unofficial regardless but considering we have Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan Rose, I think the name used here is inappropriate and could give people the wrong idea. I'm sure at one point it was titled Super Saiyan (Kale) which was straight to the point.Bullza (talk) 00:40, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Refer to Neffy's talk page please Bullza, I believe you don't understand the full situation. It was already resolved a long time ago. Neffy didn't like SUper Saiyan (Kale) and Super Saiyan Green was approved by 10x Kamehameha. 

You must understand, the reason I'm a bit grumpy is that I'm always getting messages or having to go on talk pages, you see the size of my talk page for just this year alone? Kale is based off Broly, but is not him. Green hair Saiyans did not get me interested in DB, it just made me look it up once, Frieza got me interested in DB. I was considering the name Super Saiyan (Kale) - and had it as that pages name previously - but it's awkward on pages, and just sorta bad. Super Saiyan Green is in the best interest compared to other names - as it is a simple name. -Neffyarious, the admin who made the change.

Let's just wait and see what name they'll give it when and if it appears in the manga. DragonEmeperor (talk) 01:51, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Trust me I wish it was changed too, but it seems like nothing will happen unless we see it just called Super Saiyan in Dragon Ball Heroes or something, or unless it gets a name in the manga. The admins of this site all think it's fine.

Kale's hair just a dull shade of yellow, no green

But just to make sure everyone on this page sees, the form isn't green at all. Unless you count when it appeared in the magazine, it's a very dull shade of yellow. I even tested the shades of it, and the less-yellow parts of her hair still very much go straight down the 'yellow' line. The only instance where the green name is justified has no appearance within the show itself. Comparatively, I wouldn't even mind Kale's Berserk form, or even Broly God being called Super Saiyan Green as an unofficial name. (Frankly, the name even makes more sense for the latter, and avoids the LSSG or LSSGSS debate.) I just disagree with the name Super Saiyan Green because in addition to it being unrelated to any god forms, it's literally a completely different shade. Anyways, that's my rant I guess. Gildeds (talk) 03:01, October 2, 2017 (UTC)

It has a greenish shade and it's obvious. Just look at the pictures above - without golden aura it's clearly light green.--Date450190486 12:28, October 2, 2017 (UTC)
Except that the line where the yellow is on that colour chart is verging on the green as well
It's still yellow

It still falls near the 'center' of the 'yellow' line.

Broly's hair is green
(Hadrimon (talk) 10:09, October 3, 2017 (UTC))
Not really? It's slightly shifted right from the center, but I'd argue it isn't really "verging" on the green. Though I consider verging to be pretty much right in between the yellow and green. But at the very least I think we can agree that the form is pretty much 99% yellow when we look at the various shades involved in a variety of scenes. That's the main argument for why the name of the form doesn't fit. Gildeds (talk) 15:40, October 3, 2017 (UTC)
Right where it is
So I decided to two do things. One, I added a dot dead center of the crosshairs so it's easier to see where it lands. Secondly, I added a shade of dark yellow where the values for red and green are exactly equal. As you know red and green in RGB add together to yellow, and the shades on the right look the same. My argument is that it's so negligible that it shouldn't even be considered green. Yeah it's tinted green (and slightly blue too in fact, and technically you get an even closer shade if you add 27 blue to it, but I literally can't see the difference) but that tint is such a small amount that there's basically no reason to consider it if you can recognize what a dark shade of yellow resembles. Gildeds (talk) 15:59, October 3, 2017 (UTC)

Except the color names were given to god forms. Forms we knew were god forms. That's the naming scheme DBS is using. You're just making bullcrap up now to support your (honestly) dumb naming sense. Why can't this just be called "Kale's Super Saiyan"? That's all you know about it. It's the most accurate name for it, and it's short enough for a Wiki article. Calling it Super Saiyan Green is misleading on so many levels. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 09:45, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, it's hugely misleading. I don't see what's wrong with Super Saiyan (Kale) or Kale's Super Saiyan or anything else besides what we have now.Bullza (talk) 14:00, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Kale's Super Saiyan is an official name for Berserker Super Saiyan, and so any combination of "Super Saiyan" and "Kale" will not do as a name for this form. If ya have any better suggestions that are not "Super Saiyan Kale" then feel free to give them.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:17, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

There's so little info on it, the only other name I can come up with is "Super Saiyan (perfect energy control)". On another note, the form's hair is certainly green in the new episode (like in the artwork) - unless this is another new form.--Neffyarious (talk) 21:32, October 27, 2017 (UTC)

Some important things to note.

  1. Kale's form remained a yellow shade even WITHOUT the aura in this episode.
  2. The preview has Goku call Kale a "Legendary Super Saiyan", which lends some credence to the possibility Kale has the same forms as Broly.
  3. Based on the preview it seems like the green haired Super Saiyan form debuting next episode might actually be the "Berserk" power, but controlled, which might actually be different from her yellow Super Saiyan state.

Evidence at least seems to be building that even if this isn't the same as Broly's "Type-C" form, it's probably a precursor to the form you've been calling Super Saiyan Green. At this point I'd seriously recommend changing the name. Gildeds (talk) 02:20, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, turns out the green haired artwork wasnt even of this form. I altered the name.--Neffyarious (talk) 08:56, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Maybe another name change?

I'll be honest, I'm pretty dang happy the name isn't Super Saiyan Green. Seriously. That being said, I do feel like the current name is awkward. Hasn't goku done things like "perfect energy control" while Super Saiyan before? I still maintain Super Saiyan (Kale) would probably be the best name for this form, or even Super Saiyan (Controlled Kale). That being said, the naming becomes awkward when "controlled" or "control" gets put in, because it's looking like that's what the form in 114 is gonna be. I'm not particularly bothered by the current name, I'll say. I just think it COULD be better. Gildeds (talk) 19:16, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Goku ain't done "perfect energy control" in any form but SSB. This form was described as a form with perfect energy control, and that's the only distinction it has from regular SS aside from it's hair and body altercation. It'll probably be merged into Super Saiyan (C type) soon anyway so it does not really matter.--Neffyarious (talk) 19:20, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Let's see what Kale's Super Saiyan lead to. THEN, we'll talk. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 05:47, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Just call it Super Saiyan (Kale).

Caulifla's "perfect ki control" comment was obviously meant more as a contrast to Kale's previous Berserk form, where she had very bad control of her ki, it leaking out and discharging every once in a while. This doesn't however mean that this SSj form's ki control is any better than a regular Super Saiyan, like Goku or Caulifla. The best and least speculative way to name this form would just be Super Saiyan (Kale), like it was initially named on this wiki. Xfing (talk) 13:25, November 5, 2017 (UTC)

This should really just be under Beserker Super Saiyan page because then it gives us and the readers the idea that somebody other than a Berserker form can obtain this form Nibbler3100 (talk) 06:02, November 12, 2017 (UTC)

Difference

What is the difference between this and the perfect energy control? Yon!米津愛主!Golden Frieza artVisit my talk page! 13:34, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

It's greener and appears to have the same power as Berserker, without the emotional instability. Think of it like Super Saiyan Full Power for Kale's Berserker form.

Orion (T-B-C) 13:55, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't talking of Berserker, I was talking about this Super Saiyan (perfect energy control). Yon!米津愛主!Golden Frieza artVisit my talk page! 14:34, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

My mistake. I meant to say this is basically Kale's equivalent of Super Saiyan Full Power, with perfect energy control being her unique equivalent of a controlled Super Saiyan transformation.

Orion (T-B-C) 16:55, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Can you people just wait?!

Seriously, Goku talking about the "Legendary Super Saiyan" in the Preview for episode 114 is like Goku talking about the "true form of a Saiyan" in the Preview for episode 100, and in the end that claiming was because of Vegeta saying in the episode 100 that the Berserk MAY BE the "true form of a Saiyan". Before you take for sure these ideas, you could at least wait for the episode itself. And i'm not a Troll, i'm a loyal fan who wants things to turn better, which won't happen if Toei and Toyotaro just destroy Toriyama's statements about which form is the true Legendary Warrior and, if that's not enough, via an universe where the legend of a Super Saiyan warrior never existed. WIKIMARCO (talk) 17:00, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

He says she "becomes a true legendary Super Saiyan", in the preview you mentioned he says "could this be the Saiyan's true form?" same as Veggie says in ep, he never that it was, while he does in this case. Plus theres the preview in the source that says its new.--Neffyarious (talk) 17:13, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Just to add, I don't think Toriyama stresses all that much about Super Saiyan and Legendary Super Saiyan and which is a form of legend and whatnot. Toriyama's the one who designed Broly, yknow? I don't get why people get mad about the possibility of Kale's form being named "Legendary" when literally everything about her, from techniques and appearance, is almost EXACTLY the same as the mindless hulk from the 8th DBZ movie. At this point people get mad over semantics, basically. If it has green hair like a Legendary Super Saiyan, shoots green exploding balls of ki like a Legendary Super Saiyan, is big and muscular without pupils like a Legendary Super Saiyan, screams Goku's name and tanks Kamehamehas like a Legendary Super Saiyan, and is mentioned by Goku with the exact words "Legendary Super Saiyan", then I'm sorry to people that get mad over the name, but it's probably a Legendary Super Saiyan. I advocate for avoiding redundancy. I also advocate for not trying to tiptoe around an obvious name choice. Gildeds (talk) 19:12, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's because Kale is a girl. Given how popular Broly is among the fanbase, it's the only explanation I can come up with for why they denied she was a Saiyan for so long, despite being a clear homage to Broly, claiming it "wasn't confirmed", while simultaneously giving borderline fanon titles for her transformations. I've exhausted all alternatives besides sexism.
Orion (T-B-C) 20:34, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Neffyarious, i'll have to check out again episode 100's Preview, but as i remember he was asking about what "the True form" can do or asking if that's the power of "the True form", not asking if that's "the True form". And Gildeds, how could Toriyama not care about it? he clearly stated the Legendary Warrior has always been the regular Super Saiyan, just happening to be a natural power for the Saiyan race because he didn't wanted other characters like Gohan or Vegeta to be displaced in terms of power, and he designed (not created, DESIGNED) Broly, but his "Legendary Warrior" was created by Toei (with some base from Future Trunks Super Saiyan for the design) to create the idea of the "legend of a Super Saiyan" talking in fact about an unique and extremely powerful warrior appearing only once every 1000 years, and Toriyama also designed Turles even calling him how Kakarot could have looked if he never hit his head as a baby (event that is now non-canonical as he was sent to Earth at the age of 3 and grandpa Gohan raised him for a while having to control his Saiyan wild nature with his martial arts) but Turles as a character of his own is also non-canon. And Kale, she has Toyotaro written on all her ugly being, first, cause Toyotaro loves doing obvious refferences, like all these Broly-esque circumstances like her tanking a Kamehameha from Goku or Kale psychotically screaming SON GOKU like when Broly screams KAKAROTTO, or when Zamas in the Manga does an attack very similar to when Super Buu exterminates humanity, and second, as shown in the Heroes Manga that Toyotaro made before doing the Dragon Ball Super Manga, he's totally a fan of Broly, so i don't think this disaster that is Kale is Toriyama's idea. WIKIMARCO (talk) 19:46, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Some of that stuff was your opinion, belongs more on a blog than talk: we don't know who designed Kale, and there is no official canon. The Berserker/"Legendary" form is simply the Final Form of the ordinary Super Saiyan state - so they are both the "Legendary Warrior" because one is just an evolution of the other. Berserker "Legendary" Super Saiyan is only referred to as such because it fits the description of the Super Saiyan of legend, and Z filler and GT's guides claims that Golden Great Ape is the "Legendary Warrior" as well.--Neffyarious (talk) 20:02, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not good with Japanese so I can't explain it myself but the sub suggests that the "true legendary" is not part of the title because it is in lower case. I don't know who decides what around here but when there is something so ambiguous in preview people should wait to jump on it until there is some clarification from the actual episode. Stuff like this is the very reason there are so many pages on this wiki that are improperly named. Stitchking1 (talk) 20:43, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

"legendary Super Saiyan" is also lowercase. It's only called "Legendary Super Saiyan" because you don't start a sentence without a capital. It really does not matter if there is a capital of lowercase "L" anyway, it still the same word. They have the same name: both called 伝説の超サイヤ人 (densetsu no Sūpā Saiya-jin).--Neffyarious (talk) 21:06, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Not my point. My point is that if it were part of the name it would read "True Legendary Super Saiyan". For example if it were to refer to Goku as a "true Super Saiyan", would you name that tranasformation as such? In fact, there is an episode referred to as "Tsui ni Henshin!! Densetsu no Sūpā Saiya-jin Son Goku". But I am digressing. The fact is, neither you or I can confirm what the name of the form is just off of a preview. The reason why I say the case of the letters is important is because they way it is stated in the preview it is an improper noun and not exclusive to Kale of that form. Stitchking1 (talk) 21:35, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

To be fair, it sorta makes sense it's not capitalized in the subs. It's not like the people translating would be all that informed that "Legendary Super Saiyan" is also the name of a form, and might not necessarily be Goku saying the word legendary. It could also be them erring on the side of caution. But if you were to watch the episode in japanese subs, you'd see him say 伝説の超サイヤ人 (Densetsu no Sūpā Saiyajin), which is exactly the same combination of japanese characters used for Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form. It's like when translators of chapter 15 of Super's manga assumed Beerus was referring to general destruction, but was actually talking about the Hakai technique, as revealed in chapter 25. The confusion on whether to describe the words as a form/technique, or just the literal words is on the fault of the less-informed translator. Gildeds (talk) 21:45, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Also just to add, the reason why it's so relevant that Goku says that in the preview is that literally right as the episode finishes Kale goes into her Berserk/Legendary form. With all the other parallels to Broly, there's no way to use the term "Legendary Super Saiyan" in regards to her after that form pops up and have it be coincidental. Toei knows exactly who Kale is there to resemble, and even said she "resembles that legendary saiyan" once. Gildeds (talk) 02:58, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Who made this garbage page? The picture is just Kale super sayian form. That is not her legendary state.

First off, you need to tell me when Goku said she resembles that Legendary Super Saiyan. Second, who cares how it's written. The point I'm trying to make is that the legendary super saiyan term has been used for more than one character in the series yet the "Legendary" part is not included in any of the other forms except for Broly's. On top of which, this term is used on one of two forms Kale posesses that doesn't resemble Broly's unique form. To put what I'm trying to say in simple terms:

  • In the preview Goku mentions Kale has become a true legendary Super Saiyan
  • However as you pointed out, she went berserk right before the preview and it could assumed that is the form they are referring to, of course that may not be the case which is why I think this wiki is jumping the gun as usual by naming things they cannot cite. We all remember a few months back when Caulifla was the female Broly right?
  • Lastly, we all have eyes here. This chick has two forms, one that resembles Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form and one that resembles his first Super Saiyan form. Yet for some reason everyone thought it was a good idea to put this name on the form the doesn't resemble the status quo for a Legendary Super Saiyan.
  • Stitchking1 (talk) 14:21, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

To be fair, given all the other similarities it just seems like enough to deem it the same form. To answer the last question though, the preview seems to imply Kale gains a new from by mastering her Berserk power, at which point Goku says "you've become a true Legendary Super Saiyan". It just looks a lot like Kale's form is the same as Broly's, and that this new form is something from controlling that power. That's what I gather anyways, and we'll find out in less than a week. Gildeds (talk) 03:56, October 31, 2017 (UTC)

I think this is just Legendary Super Saiyan. The "Broly form" is called Berserk and the "energy control" thing is Super Saiyan Type C. Sandxamun (talk) 13:13, November 5, 2017 (UTC)

  • I am just gong to come out and say this. I don't think this is actually name of this form. In episode 114 preview, Goku said "a true legendary Super Saiyan" specifically. The lower casing writing implies that it is not an official name. Various times through the franchise, the generic power of Super Saiyan was called "legendary". Frieza refered to Goku as the "legendary Super Saiyan" after he was defeated on Namek. Vegeta even referred to Present Trunks becoming a Super Saiyan "legendary warrior. I truly believe Goku was just saying that Kale joined the ranks of the few Saiyans in history who reached this rare level of power. That's my two cents on the matter.--Steveo920 (talk) 22:04, November 6, 2017 (UTC)
    • Yeah, and besides, by that logic, we'd need to merge the regular Super Saiyan form and Super Saiyan God forms simply because they used the same term as well. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:13, November 6, 2017 (UTC)
    • As Neffyarious pointed out though, it's not the fact that they use the same term, it's the fact that Berserk and LSS essentially have no differences whatsoever besides possibly the name. The lower-case is irrelevant since, though an official sub, it is up to the translator's personal opinion in how to translate it. Even Viz has made mistakes when assuming the word "destruction" was just a word and not the "Destruction" technique, so lower-case isn't really a valid argument. Goku was referring explicitly to the form Kale showed in 114 when he called it a "True Legendary Super Saiyan," which is Kale controlling power that is pretty much exactly the same as the "Legendary Super Saiyan" from the movies. By Weedle's logic, we might as well not call Legendary Super Saiyan by that name, and just call it B-type. But it's clearly differentiated by the name "Legendary Super Saiyan" by its usage in everything else. And the issue with the name for Kale's form is it isn't really all that differentiated from Broly's forms, bar the new one that came as a derivative of one that for all intents and purposes is LSS. Personally, I think keeping Controlled/C-type and Berserker/Legendary separate no longer holds what little value it had in the first place. As for Weedle's suggestion, that's sorta a thing with the disambiguation for Legendary Super Saiyan now. Lastly, part of the issue is that we'll likely never get an official name for the form in other media, seeing as Dragon Ball Heroes has decided to just call Kefla's TLSS form Super Saiyan, and most video games seem reluctant on even calling Kale's Berserker form Super Saiyan, not to mention the lack of usage for Kales Controlled/C-type form. We infer the name by whatever we can get our hands on. Unless you want the name to be something like "Beserker Controlled," (which would be more of an oxymoron,) I think the current name is the best we got. Gildeds (talk) 16:55, November 7, 2017 (UTC)


"it's the fact that Berserk and LSS essentially have no differences whatsoever besides possibly the name."

Except we don't know if that's a fact or not yet. Obviously Berserk is an homage to LSSJ, but we don't know if it's exactly the same functionality-wise. Until they start referring to the form as LSSJ over Berserk/anything else they're using, we can't really say it's the exact same thing as LSSJ. — Final ChidoriTalk 18:14, November 7, 2017 (UTC)

You say that, but it's something we can ascertain from looking at the past 20 episodes. In term of appearance, (big and GREATLY exaggerated muscular beyond even USS, green hair, glowing yellow-ish hair when going full-power, lack of eyes (at least until she stops being Berserk and turns TLSS)) and her abilities (green spheres of ki that greatly resemble Eraser Cannon, usage of what appears to be Blaster Meteor, stomach ki tackles, creating gigantic circular indents in rock using people as ammunition, form implying that her "ki is rising, overflowing" something LSS previously did, etc.) and now the user literally being described by Goku as a "True Legendary Super Saiyan". I'm not quite sure what you mean by "same functionality-wise" since that seems pretty concrete to me in terms of being the same functionally. There's so much evidence pointing to it being the same form, and other than the name given in some video games (which in some cases like Dokkan Battle and possibly Heroes don't even consider it a Super Saiyan despite being called that several times), little to no evidence whatsoever to it not being the same form. The only real difference I can think of is the electricity in her first appearance going that form, and even then that never appeared again. Considering TLSS Kale was said to be stronger than Berserk Kale, but still jobbed to SSG Goku while teaming up with an SS2 Caulifla, I'd also say it's safe to assume it's somewhere near Broly's LSS in terms of functionality if you mean in regards to power too, possibly offset by the U6 Saiyans being seemingly stronger in general. Gildeds (talk) 00:33, November 8, 2017 (UTC)

It ISN'T the Legendary Warrior

Sorry for the time, it was a bit hard to return here, but I told you people to wait. As of this point it's practically impossible for anyone to actually say this form is the "Legendary Super Saiyan" (even if the universe 6 is restored, the story of Vegeta visiting Sadara will focus on him and Cabba), and i told you that the context of a Preview isn't the same as the actual episode, like Goku questioning speciffically what the "True Form of a Saiyan" can do in the Preview and in the actual episode Vegeta claiming the Berserk MIGHT BE the "True Form of a Saiyan", in the actual episode and the following episodes with Kefla, the "Legendary Super Saiyan" was NOT mentioned at any moment. As of now, all you people will know about the upcoming 20th movie, which will talk about the origin of the Saiyan race and its incredible power, and by such it may (it's a possibility, i hope it does, but it's not absolute that it will) show the Legend of the Super Saiyan, and trust me, as Toriyama is once again involved, the Legendary Warrior form will be the same regular Super Saiyan we knew thanks to Goku during the Namek incident, not the monster B Type Broly has nor this "True Legendary Super Saiyan" that is just a Full Controlled Berserk. WIKIMARCO (talk) 18:14, December 21, 2017 (UTC)

  • "Legendary Super Saiyan" is not the legendary Super Saiyan, it's only called that here cuz that's what it's called by official stuff. This form is called "true legendary Super Saiyan", cuz that's the only name it has to distinguish it.--Neffyarious (talk) 19:09, December 21, 2017 (UTC)
  • Look, no one has been arguing that this form isn't THE legendary Super Saiyan (whose name we know now to be Yamoshi). All that's being said is that the form is the same form as Broly's essentially, who's form has been using the name Legendary Super Saiyan for a long time now. I wouldn't be surprised if Yamoshi's hair doesn't turn green and he doesn't get all bulky if we ever see him, but whether he does or not does not change that Kale's form is exactly the same as Broly's, that Kale has been called "Legendary Super Saiyan" by both Goku and V-Jump, the latter being in direct relation and reference to Broly, that Legendary Super Saiyan is called such due to its brutality in relation to the legend, and that at this point I don't really see a reason to separate the two forms anymore. Gildeds (talk) 03:07, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

If i'm not wrong, V-Jump is managed by Toei and Shueisha, and Toei is the one who wanted the Legend to talk about a form absolutely unique that only one Saiyan every 1000 years can use, so it's not strange for a media like that to try at least in a way to state Broly's B-Type transformation and Kale's green haired forms as one and the same. And i don't know what happened in that Preview when Nozawa-San as Goku calls Kale "the Legendary Super Saiyan", but it must be a mistake, and as i told many times, the context of a Preview isn't the same as the context of an actual episode. Now, for all that idea of saying they're one and the same even knowing that none of them are the actual "Legendary Warrior" form, it can't work, Broly's B-Type is called the "Legendary Warrior" cause from the moment that form was created it was supposed to be the true form related on the Legend of the Super Saiyan, the true Legendary Warrior that appears only once every 1000 years, cause, as i said, Toei wanted to mantain that idea of the Legend talking about an unique Saiyan with a transformation of his own that Toriyama wanted to state with the regular Super Saiyan but semingly aborted because he was unable to end the Manga during the Namek incident as he wanted and he didn't wanted other warriors like Vegeta or Gohan to be less in terms of strenght (and in fact, all the explanation about the S-Cells perfectly explains why the Super Saiyan was so rare and legendary but now it's so common). Also, Kale's transformations don't have the same characteristics as Broly's, Kale's envy and frustration overwhelm her and trigger the Berserker, turing her psycho and violent until she's able to control her emotions with external help and fully control her power, but Broly is naturally in control of himself while in his B-Type and C-Type forms cause he's a violent psycho in personality, being the transformation just a new and stronger form, and the highest level of the B-Type Super Saiyan (not counting "Legendary" versions of phases 2, 3, 4 or Broly God) shows him with yellow hair, while Kale in her highest keeps green hair. I understand the Wiki needs a name for this form and a conjectural name is the only option as there's no official name, but calling it "True Legendary Super Saiyan" gives a wrong idea. --WIKIMARCO (talk) 03:46, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

For the record, Kale's "Berserk" form also has her hair glowing a yellow shade while at full power like Broly in Legendary Super Saiyan about 4 minutes into episode 114. Secondly, what do you mean there's a difference in personality? Until Kale gains control of her power and turns TLSS, her personality is a direct reference to Broly's in every possible way. The trigger for the form does not matter when they act the same in said form and the forms behave exactly the same. Even the part where she's talking normally and just saying sadistic things is a copy of Broly's behavior, and then there's the whole KAKAROT/SON GOKU thing. I'm sorry, but you are seriously grasping at straws at this point, because every possible sign has made Berserker a carbon copy of Legendary, with again, several sources pointing to the forms being the same now. I don't believe the name of form gives the wrong idea. Berserker and Legendary are likely going to be merged some point in the near future, and True Legendary just being a controlled version of that form makes sense to me. Especially when, again, it's a name Goku said. And it can make you upset, but generally things that happen and are said in the show or manga, even during previews, will probably take priority when there's no other information available. Gildeds (talk) 15:39, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

First, i repeat it: the context of a Preview isn't the same as the context of an actual episode, so Goku didn't said such thing as Kale being the "Legendary SSJ", not even games say such thing even with Kefla, whose Super Saiyan basic form is this one. For the yellow hair during Berserk, i have to check out that episode, but as i remember the only yellow haired form she has is her Super Saiyan "Green". And you're confusing personality and behavior. It's a fact Kale Berserk acted like Broly cause she's an obvious reference to Broly (and i perfectly know it, i noticed the KAKAROT/SON GOKU reference, if i properly remember i'm the one who added it to the references list), even the trigger is similar as Broly's hate was because of Kakarot having all the atention and Kale is envious of anyone who is too near to Caulifla, but unlike Broly, who, as i said, is in fact a psycho, Kale's psycho attitude as Berserk isn't her true personality, she was merely controled by her emotions, her true personality is that docile girl that Caulifla had to convince to try to become Super Saiyan, she's Caulifla's beloved llittle sister who was only able to become stronger cause Caulifla believed in her. It's true that i support the statement of the basic Super Saiyan being the true Legendary Warrior, but it's Toriyama himself who stated it even after giving the Super Saiyan even to the humans from age 1000 who have even less Saiyan blood than Goku Jr. (who is not canonical, but has at least 1/16 of Saiyan blood), and it's not just Toriyama who says the Legendary Warrior is the Regular SSJ, even content from videogames including Heroes which isn't controled by Toriyama treats Broly's LSSJ and C-Type and Kale's green haired as totally sepparate forms, so the true oficial statements say they're not the same. But all this situation will solve this year with the new movie as it will talk about how Saiyans became the strongest race and the Legend of the Super Saiyan is an important part of how it happened. --WIKIMARCO (talk) 05:38, January 8, 2018 (UTC)

Ok well, it sounds TO ME like the biggest problem you have is it being called "Legendary Super Saiyan". And you can argue Kale/Broly's personalities being different, sure. (Though IMO it could just as easily be argued that Broly's LSS form contributed to his insanity in the same way Kale's did.) But one, "True Legendary Super Saiyan" is literally what Goku called the form, and the ONLY name we have separating her form from others. Secondly, the whole thing I'm arguing is that Kale's "Berserker" and Broly's "Legendary" are the same thing. And unless you can somehow change the fact that

1. It's been called Legendary Super Saiyan by Goku

2. V-Jump has treated the form as the same as Broly's before (and I'd say V-Jump can hold just as much if not more relevance than the video games at times.)

and 3. Everything about Kale's freaking Berserk form is exactly the same as Broly's

Then your argument that it's something different essentially holds no weight. The video games calling the form Berseker don't particularly make a difference, considering Dokkan doesn't treat it as Super Saiyan (which the anime has,) and the other games haven't called the form Super Saiyan either. Until the anime or manga or maybe some video game with Broly in it makes it very explicit it's not the same form, me and plenty of other people like me are going to consider separating the two something redundant. And all I want is to avoid stupid names and horrid redudancy. A Yamoshi movie showing that he doesn't go "Legendary Super Saiyan" does not affect the argument that Kale's form is the same as Broly's either. It would only serve to further your hatred with the form being called "Legendary". Speaking of, your arguments neither help make things more accurate or help avoid redudancy, because they seem to based on your personal gripe with a form being called the "Legendary Super Saiyan" when it isn't related to Yamoshi. That's what I'm seeing anyways. Take away the personal gripe you have with the form being called what it's called and suddenly treating the two forms as the same suddenly makes far more sense.

And for god's sake, please fix your sentence structuring and grammar. It's really difficult to read anything you write. Gildeds (talk) 21:06, January 11, 2018 (UTC)

First, sorry if my grammar is poor, english is not my first language and i'm doing what i can.

For all your attempt to state this thing is the same form as Broly's B-Type Super Saiyan, i repeat: IT DOESN'T WORK. If you try to call Kale's green haired forms "the Legendary Warrior" like Broly's B-Type, you're against Toriyama's own statements, and if you try to say both forms are one and the same but recognizing Kale is not the Legendary Warrior as you're saying, then you're against Broly's own scoop as the B-Type was created to be the true and unique Legendary Warrior form that appears once every 1000 years.

And if Goku called her a "Legendary Super Saiyan" in the Preview, i don't know how many times i have to say this, it must be a mistake, probably in the script for that Preview cause Toei controls most of the Anime, but unlike the "True Form of a Saiyan" situation of Goku wanting to know what the True Form can do in the Preview and in the episode Vegeta saying it MAY BE the "True Form", that "Kale has become the Legendary Super Saiyan" claiming never appeared in any episode. And once again, if i'm not wrong, Toei and Shueisha are the ones who control magazines like V-Jump, so it doesn't have too much value. And seriously, you have to understand Dragon Ball Super is full of references to past media including the non-canonical, like all the lettuce during Goku Black's debut, Mosco being similar to Luud (who was also called a god of destruction) or Aniraza's Illusion Smash, and Kale is just the most obvious of all as her Berserk is almost totally a copypaste of Broly's own design and behavior. WIKIMARCO (talk) 20:35, January 14, 2018 (UTC)

At this point I'm pretty much done debating this. To answer your first question, it doesn't contradict Toriyama's statements because the name needn't be taken LITERALLY. All the name "Legendary Super Saiyan" really means is "Super Saiyan that's crazy and violent like in the legends." Mind you, according to Toriyama, those legends are inaccurate regardless as the Super Saiyan's violent nature merely came to be part of the legend due to Yamoshi's fighting style anyways. Ergo, the form can match the legends without actually being a form Yamoshi used. If you want you could also just view the situation with Kale as Broly's "Legendary Super Saiyan" form being renamed Berserk or something. But we also now have confirmation that the anime production team refers to it as Broly's transformation, in addition to literally everything else that has implied it's the same form. Though personally, I wouldn't even be surprised if they use the form in regards to Yamoshi or one of his comrades. We still know nothing on that end, however irrelevant it actually is to this situation.

Secondly,when you say "the preview must have been a mistake" you're projecting how you feel the writers and the show should be. Don't be so sure you're correct. You've made similar assumptions in the past in regards to the manga and how Toyotaro treated Zamasu not coming from Toriyama, due to how you disliked it, but you were proven wrong on those accounts as well when interviews came out showing things like Zamasu being affected by the Potara time limit and being a fully immortal fusion came straight from Toriyama's original draft, despite you detracting both of those things due to the manga not being the "best source". Ironically it seemed to follow Toriyama's original story the closest. Any and all dialogue in this series, and information we can obtain from official sources, anime and manga, statements, production, previews, and movies serve their purposes. Personally I also find the anime annoying sometimes, but I have to accept anything that's said or done there as something that is a part of Dragon Ball now, whether its Super Saiyan Rage being a thing, half-corrupted goop Zamasu, or the Spirit Bomb Sword. Gildeds (talk) 03:25, January 15, 2018 (UTC)

There is the matter of the transformation that Broly and Kale use. Kale simply bulks up. Broly seems to break through a husk with a large sphere of green ki. (personally I don't think the husk reference is correct) So the styles of transformation are different. --Hulk10 (talk) 15:15, May 10, 2018 (UTC)

Delete this

Delete this, it was just revealed in Dokkan that this is just Kale transformed into an SS2. Yon!米津愛主!Golden Frieza artVisit my talk page! 04:08, March 15, 2018 (UTC)

So we should just have this be a separate section in the Super Saiyan 2 article? And delete the article? Because that does make more sense...Banan14kab 23:08, March 30, 2018 (UTC)

Name

Should we really call this version Super Saiyan 2 (Kale's version)? Wouldn't it be more accurate to call it Mastered Legendary Super Saiyan?--Hulk10 (talk) 13:38, May 10, 2018 (UTC)

  • No, it's officially Super Saiyan 2.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:30, May 10, 2018 (UTC)
    • Ok that settles it.--Hulk10 (talk) 16:32, May 10, 2018 (UTC)

Differences in appearance between Kale and Broly

  • I can't help but wonder why Kale's SSJ2 looks so different from Broly's. Could it be due to gender, evolution or emotional stability?--Hulk10 (talk) 01:26, November 25, 2018 (UTC)
    • I also think Broly BR likely possesses this form or could potentially possess it.--Hulk10 (talk) 01:33, November 25, 2018 (UTC)
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