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broly may be stronger then super saiyan 3

Here's a point that keeps getting overlooked in the movies its stated that Broly's power constantly rises throughout the combat not just after healing so if he's known to be strogner than SSJ2 based on his combat in the movies then against an SSJ3 which looses power throughout the fight Broly would overpower it since he is constantly Rising. The fact is because he keeps getting stronger the longer he stays in his form he has no cap so he is stronger than SS3. And based on that logic that means that given enough time in LSSJ form Broly can actually surpass an SSJ4 if he had enough time in combat.

Absolutely. And it's not just during combat - Remember, his father originally had no problem controlling him, but his power grew over time so great that he blew out his controlling device. Also, the Super Saiyan 3 transformaion requires a lot of energy (evidenced by Gotenks dropping out of fusion faster becaouse of Super Saiyan 3, and Goku's time on earth being reduced by Super Saiyan 3 [as well as movie fusions at super saiyan 3, and the Gogeta SSJ4 transformation, which reduced their time to just a few minutes]). 06:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

he is way stronger then ssj2 he was in the first movie and actually brolly has no weakness plus in the second he got stronger just like cell in reality he would be atleast stronger then ssj3 and he didnt overload with eneargy he just was defeated thats wat happens when he powers down think about.

Why would he be stronger than SSJ3? From all appearances, he utterly dominated SSJ, was likely stronger than SSJ2, but we never saw him against SSJ3. Probably given time, Broly would have easily eclipsed it, but he didn't get enough time to do so.

i understand wat u mean but lookin movie 8 brolys clearly stronger then super saiyan 2 and u remember how cell coming back from near death made him stronger plus brolys strength increases ssj3s decreases

I agree. Besides, the outcome of a SSJ3 vs. LSSJ battle would be similar to SSJ Goku vs. Frieza, Perfect Cell vs. USSJ Trunks, and "USSJ" Perfect Cell [yes, I KNOW he can't go SSJ, much less USSJ, but it was the only term I could think of to describe Perfect Cell's bulked up form (as Cell was already at 100% by the time that thing happened)] vs. SSJ2 Gohan. In other words, LSSJ, which DOESN'T lose either Power, Stamina, OR Speed, is able to completely dominate over an SSJ3 (which wastes a lot of stamina, as Goku was having a tough time fighting off Buu in SSJ3, it made him lose half his remaining time on earth, among other things.). In fact, the only time Broly might even HAVE a challenge against an SSJ3 would be Gotenks, which even then, considering how most of the time (even when he actually LISTENS to Piccolo for once) he doesn't fight seriously, which would leave him at a strategical disadvantage, and plus, Gotenks can only last for about half an hour (Gotenks as a whole, I mean, not just his SSJ3 form.)

And these assertions are based on...? We have no clue how much stronger than an SS2 Broly is, nor do we have any clue how much stronger than an SS2 an SS3 is. If an SS3 is 100x stronger than an SS2 and Broly is 2x stronger than an SS2, it really wouldn't make any difference whether the SS3 slowly loses strength or not. All we know is that Broly > SS2 and SS3 > SS2. With only that much information, it is mathematically impossible to say whether Broly > SS3, or Broly < SS3. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 04:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering how easily Broly dominated over Gohan when he was in SSJ2, I think it's FAR more than just 2x SSJ2's Power.

Why? Vegeta was pretty completely dominated by Zarbon, whose power was only about 1.125 times Vegeta's. Afterward, Zarbon was pretty quickly beaten by Vegeta, whose power had only climbed to about 1.04 times Zarbon's. Mecha Frieza was totally helpless against Super Saiyan Trunks, whose power was estimated to be only about 1.25 times greater than Frieza's. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 22:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Those cases are different, Vegeta underestimated Zarbon, plus, prior to that match, Vegeta didn't even know that Zarbon could transform into a stronger form. In the rematch, he has had experience with Zarbon's transformation, and partially because of Zenkai, so, even WITHOUT it, he would anticipate Zarbon's transformation, and thus would be ready for it. Frieza also underestimated Trunks, which was the same mistake as he made on Namek against SSJ Goku, which led to his downfall. Gohan, on the other hand, had prior experience to fighting Broly, plus he mentioned that Broly (in SSJ form, no less) was just as much as a challenge as the last time he fought him (Hinting that he grew stronger over his coma), so he clearly didn't underestimate him.

How about Recoome vs. Vegeta? Recoome was only 1.43 times stronger than Vegeta, and Vegeta certainly wasn't fooling around during that battle, but Vegeta was still completely outmatched. It all seems to be a moot point to me though. Even if we somehow managed to come up with a reasonable estimate for Broly's strength, we still have no clue how that compares to the strength of an SS3. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 00:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

True, you have a point. And yes, we can't give an exact measurement in regards to Broly's strength compared to SSJ3, however, we can at least give an estimated guess (As SSJ3 requires 100% stamina, it is a very risky transformation, similar to USSJ, in one sense, as both power up to their maximum strength at the cost of a very crucial physical part of determining Victory [in USSJ, it's speed, in SSJ3, it's stamina, which requires a LOT of it since Goku literally wasted almost half of his remaining time on Earth just to transform into SSJ3, and couldn't return to his maximum power.], and since Broly actually increases in ALL areas (remember, despite having a similar build to USSJ, he not only keeps his speed, but apparantly his speed increases as well.), then a fight between a LSSJ and SSJ3 would be comparable to Perfect Cell vs. USSJ Trunks.)
Besides, in regards to reasonable estimates, most of the fights by the end of the Frieza Saga were unreasonable stats. For example, for Perfect cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan, Gohan was able to bring Cell down to his knees (and barf up #18, while I'm at it), stating that SSJ2 is stronger than Perfect Cell, then, when Cell (or rather Super Perfect Cell) returns to earth, he significantly injures SSJ2 Gohan, thus making it seem as though Cell is the stronger of the two, then they decide to make it seem as though SSJ2 Gohan was the stronger of the two by having him be defeated.
Imperfect Cell vs. #16 is also unreasonable, since #17 and even Gero stated that #16 wasn't even up to the strength of #17, and yet, for some lame attempt to give #16 some action, they randomly have him say that Cell and #16 are of equal Power Levels, which, considering how Cell had #17 at his mercy, is a pretty big contradiction in itself, since that implies that #16 is actually STRONGER than #17 when the opposite seems to be true. It definitely wasn't because 17 was worn out from the battle with Piccolo, because 17 stated that he, as well as All androids don't wear out from battling.

While I don't agree that there's a basis for comparing SS3 vs. LSS to USS Trunks vs. Perfect Cell, there is a point about your comparison that I'd like to bring out:

Quote: ...both power up to their maximum strength at the cost of a very crucial physical part of determining Victory [in USSJ, it's speed, in SSJ3, it's stamina...
Quote: ...a fight between a LSSJ and SSJ3 would be comparable to Perfect Cell vs. USSJ Trunks.

Based on your first statement, a fight between a LSS and SS3 would not be comparable to Perfect Cell vs. USS Trunks, since even you stated that speed is not impaired as a SS3 like it would be as an USS. Even Cell admitted that USS Trunks was stronger than he. Were it not for the sluggishness brought on by the USS transformation, it's not a stretch to believe that Trunks could have made quick work of Cell. And as you said, SS3 didn't suffer the same speed problems that USS did, so, even if your comparison (which really doesn't have canonical backing) is correct, it's still thoroughly possible that SS3 could defeat LSS. Lack of stamina only becomes a problem in a drawn-out battle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asserting that a SS3 is stronger than a LSS; I'm just saying that there's not enough information on which to base a reliable comparison. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 20:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Broly is somewhat a mutant and may be its presumable he is as strong as SS3 or between the powers of SS3 and SS4 well that is what I think--Sk 16:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah, there's the speed factor, but Stamina plays a key role in it as well. I mean, take SSJ3 vs. Kid buu, for example, Kid buu was completely dominating SSJ3 Goku, despite the power and speed, and he couldn't maintain the transformation any longer. I mean, in order for something to be perfectly strong, they must have have very high strength, speed, and most importantly, stamina. As both SSJ3 AND USSJ have ridiculously low stamina, they have no match against something like the LSSJ. Heck, Dragon Ball GT also showed this problem as well, where Goku couldn't handle the transformation for even a second. We may not have enough to form a definite answer, but we do have enough to form an educated guess.

also, yeah, he is pretty much a mutant.

We don't have enough information to form an educated guess. For all we know, SS3 Goku was 1,000 times stronger than SS2 Gohan, and Broly was 50% stronger. The inverse is equally possible. Broly is only shown in two movies, and the strongest individual he fought was SS2 Gohan, who was weaker than him. Was Broly 1.2x stronger? Was he 3x stronger? Was he 50x stronger? Was he 1,000,000x stronger? We have no clue. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 09:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Considering how Broly has just been confirmed as having a Super Saiyan 3 as a Raging Blast exclusive, let's see what order it is going to be in in regards to the transformation (since the order will imply which is stronger [by that, I mean in all areas and not just in brute strength.].).

Where does everyone get this idea that LSSJ Broly was stronger than SSJ2? Broly never fought a SSJ2, Gohan had no lightning aura in Second Coming, thus, he was only a SSJ1. 13:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

First off, there's more ways to tell if someone is SSJ2 or not than just bio-sparks. For instance, Gohan's SSJ2 form has only one strand of hair, whileas his FPSSJ form has two strands. Secondly, it was confirmed in the Daizenshuus that he was SSJ2 in that movie.
Sorry for double posting, but I just did some calculations, and I noticed something that may prove once and for all that Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan form is stronger than a SSJ3, possibly even during his fight in Movie 8.
Before we start, I'd like to state that the Super Exciting Guide officially stated that Super Saiyan 2 is 2x as strong as a Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 3 is 4x as strong as a Super Saiyan 2, and by consequence, 8x as strong as a Super Saiyan [I'm guessing it's referring to both the untrained Super Saiyan and the Full Power Super Saiyan, since the only real difference is that the Full Power Super Saiyan conserves power so it doesn't power up, and that otherwise, the power levels are roughly the same.], and that a Super Namek is stronger than a Super Saiyan, at least with Piccolo/Kami/Nameless Namek (how much is not actually stated, so I'm going to keep it at as strong as a Super saiyan level for conveniences sake). Also, the Super Saiyan 2nd Grade (at least with Vegeta and Future Trunks forms, as we don't see Goku training with those forms) is heavily suggested to be at least 3x as strong as a Super Saiyan [Vegeta was more directly attributed with that statistic, but Vegeta mentioned that Future Trunks was about as strong as him in that form, which implies that the same statistics apply to him].
Knowing these facts, we take into account that they fought simultaneously in the fight, which overall would be almost 9x that of a Super Saiyan, and 4.5x that of a Super Saiyan 2. (Two Full Power Super Saiyans are the equivalent of a Super Saiyan 2. Two Ascended Super Saiyans would equal to 6x the strength of a Super Saiyan. We also have Piccolo's Super Namek status, which, going by the fact that he's at least as strong as a Super Saiyan, if not stronger, that means that 6+2+1=9. As Broly (in his Legendary Super Saiyan form, no less), was able to not only unaffected by their attacks at all, but he even was able to take them down quickly, that means that he would be stronger than even a Super Saiyan 3.
Mathematics not only do not lie, but they can't even use opinions, so it is fact, not opinion that Broly would be even stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 in movie 8, at least by a marginal amount.
What you're saying is complete utter @#!*% , every single bit of it, sorry. First of all, the power relations that you gave are completely irrelevant, even though they appeared in some kind of guide. A Super Saiyan 2's strength may be around 10-20x that of a Full Power Super Saiyan (I can prove it to you with simple power relation stuff in the series). It would be enough for Broly to be say, 2x stronger than the good guys to dominate them as he did, in fact if he was any stronger, he'd kill them all in a single punch. Another thing, it's not like two guys with 1/2 the strength of a villain would match him, it's absolutely on the contrary - he'd pick them all apart (if that's what you meant, anyway). Thr movie is filler, anyway, and Toei isn't very good at keeping stuff logical, but a Full Power Super Saiyan Goku with the power of four DRASTICALLY WEAKENED friends was able to single-punch KO Broly. And as you know, as people get beaten up and tired, their battle power decreases as well (as shown during the fight with Vegeta). I would say that if we assumed that Full Power Goku and Gohan's powerlevels in the first movie were 2, then Piccolo's, Vegeta's, Trunks' and Gohan's would be around 1,7, then Broly was no higher than 3.8. In the Second Coming, his power would be around 16, while SS2 Gohan's was around 12 (weak for a SS2). This is only figurative, but you have to realize the immense differences between SS2 and SS1. Summarizing, Broly in the Second Coming was definitely not tougher than Buu Saga SS2 Goku. Xfing 22:03, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
If Broly was truly as weak as you implied, then he would at the same time have actually been wounded by at least one of the Z-fighters long before he received that gut punch. Heck, maybe have Krillin wound him, just to top it all off. Not to mention, the one time they could have easily wounded Broly (the bit where Piccolo had given them Senzu Beans), they couldn't even scratch him. Seeing how three saiyans who had not only recovered from Broly's attack, and most likely had a substantial power increase as well due to their "Zenkai" ability, but also had another very fresh fighter with them, then Broly definitely would not have been able to handle them, yet not only was he more than capable of handling them, he whupped their butts to tomorrow simultaneously without even breaking a sweat. Weedle McHairybug 15:20, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, sir, but believe me - being 2x as strong as his enemies would be all Broly needed to own them like he did and be unharmed by their attacks. Vegeta destroyed Cui in a single attack being 1,25x as strong as him for crying out loud. Also, comparing Broly in his Second Coming to a Super Saiyan 3 just because he defeated a weak Super Saiyan 2 (and far from instantly too), is simply silly. You have to realize that a power difference as small as 1,25x can, will and has determined the outcome of a fight in the Dragonball universe. Xfing 13:06, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

3 pictures on the page are exactly the same, but edits.

All 3 of those are the exact some shot. Maybe from different releases, Funi, Toei, Dragonbox, ect.

Original Super Saiyan

Anyone know enough about the subject to clarify the relation between the original Super Saiyan and Legendary Super Saiyans? Is there any canonical evidence to support that he was one, is this just hinted in games, etc? If nothing canonical implies it, we should probably just make a trivia note of it rather than including him on the list. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 11:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the original Super Saiyan was a Legendary Super Saiyan. This is total speculation, but I assume that if he was the original, first Super Saiyan, that by this point no other Saiyan had ever reached the Super Saiyan transformation and "Legendary Super Saiyans" like Broly had yet to be born. But from a factual point of view, the original Super Saiyan was written into the series long before the concept of Legendary Super Saiyans, and no material seems to verify that the two are synonymous. Storm Z Ball talk projects 18:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
They probably created the Legendary Super Saiyan form (and Broly, as a result) in an attempt to fix a plothole in regards to the Super Saiyans that started in the Trunks Saga (Though one can argue that the plothole was present in the final moments of the Frieza Saga as well, what, with 100% Frieza basically beating SSJ Goku up.). The Flashback that Vegeta gave when he mentioned the original super saiyan had him saying that the Original Super Saiyan was the strongest in the universe (he also implied that he was probably omnipotent.), and more importantly, that only one Super Saiyan exists every one thousand years. As you know, since the Trunks Saga, there have been multiple Super Saiyans (two pure blooded Super Saiyans and at least three Mixed super saiyans (five if one counts "a hero's journey" as canon)), and the Super Saiyans from the Androids Saga onwards had them being, while stronger than the average lifeform, definitely not omnipotent, not even close to it, as a matter of fact (Though, again, this same plothole can be argued with the Frieza Saga, seeing how Frieza's 100% form even gave SSJ Goku a challenge, at least temporarily.)
Also, this might not be canon, but then again, technically, this isn't canon either, so... in the OVA/Game (depending on how you look at it) "Plan to Exterminate the Saiyans", I think it was stated that a "Legendary Super Saiyan" destroyed the Saiyan's original homeworld (referring to the Original Super Saiyan's destruction by his own power).—This unsigned comment was made by (talkcontribs) on 00:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Broly is Still Super Saiyan 1

Hey guys. I've just wanted to point some things out.

1. The timeline of the movie was pretty screwed up. Evidently, Gohan was already able to transform into Super Saiyan, but Goku and Gohan were still not Full-Power. In canon, when they left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, they were in Super Saiyan state, and remained that way all the way till the Cell Games, whereas in the movie, they started out from Base form. They clearly weren't Full Power Super Saiyans back then, because if they were, Broly would get beaten. Also, there's no reason to think that Vegeta and Trunks were Ascended Saiyans in the battle - the transformation sequences didn't hint at it. 2. Even being at standard Super Saiyan, Goku and Gohan were about on par with Trunks' and Vegeta's transformations. It took Goku only one trip to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to be so powerful, as to be about 1,8x stronger than even Ascended Vegeta after the second trip. And Gohan was even stronger than that. So we can assume that Goku and Gohan's training efficiency far surpasses that of Vegeta and Trunks. Goku and Gohan were still regular Super Saiyans.

Some relative numbers to back it up:

Piccolo: 17 Vegeta/Trunks/Gohan (Super Saiyan) 19 Goku (Super Saiyan): 20 Broly (Controlled Super Saiyan): 33 Broly (Legendary Super Saiyan): 66

As we can see, Broly has all what it takes to dominate everyone without any effort at all. But here we go again:

Goku FPSS (Cell Games) 62 Goku FPSS (Full Power) 128 Cell (absolute limit) 650 Gohan (Super Saiyan 2) 1900

Broly is unable to touch a Super Saiyan 2, his power falls in the same power registers as Mastered Super Saiyan's does. And still, Gohan was clearly not a Super Saiyan 2 in the next movie, he was a Mastered Super Saiyan then. No lightning - no SS2, simple as that.

No, it's not as simple as that. If I must point out, Gohan barely had ANY sparks when he transformed into SSJ2 for Kibito (in fact, out of the entire time he was in SSJ2, he only got a few, very brief moment where he had sparks.). Look, in order for him to be a Mastered Super Saiyan in his rematch with Broly, Gohan has to not only have similar facial features to his base form, but he also has to have 2 bangs going down his face (one being big, the other being small.). Also, IF he only transformed into MSSJ and not SSJ2, please explain why Broly would need to go to LSSJ when he could easily take down TWO SSJs/MSSJs with his Super Saiyan form alone?
You know, I've been thinking about it, and I don't think that he really went SSJ2 for Kibito at the tournament. I think that he went to a more powerful SSJ1. Evidence: lack of sparks during transformation; Later, needing advice from his father to "remember how you felt fighting cell" - I'm pretty sure this is referring to how Gohan achieved SSJ2; the only reson Goku would be giving this advice is if Gohan couldn't transform to SSJ2.
It's also likely that after defeating Cell, Gohan and Goku stopped being full power (24/7) super saiyans - I imagine ChiChi would demand this, because her dislike of Gohan fighting, and her opinion on their hair color. That would explain why they weren't 24/7SS when fighting Broly. Which I think might place this movie as after fighting Cell. 06:50, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Also, they DEFINITELY were full-power during the first Broly movie. The facial features gave it away (the FPSSJ is basically the blonde version of the Super saiyan's base form. SSJ1, specifically, an unmastered one, has them looking stern 24/7, even if that isn't the emotion they are feeling.
As for the transformation sequences... give me a break! Trunks definitely went ASSJ (I mean, his jacket ripped to shreads when he transformed, something that only happened in the first Broly movie [the next time he went SSJ in Bojack unbound, his jacket didn't even tear, much less rip to shreads]). As for Vegeta, you do know that Saiyan jumpsuits/armor fit regardless of size, right? I mean, seeing how Vegeta was wearing Saiyan Armor, and the fact that he had a bulkier side to him when he fought Broly after transforming, he was DEFINITELY ASSJ.
  • I want to join the discussion. Let's see: Broly was beating a Super-Namek (stronger than untrained Super Saiyan), 2 Ascended Super Saiyans (note Vegeta's overt muscle mass increase and ripping jacket of Trunks) and 2 Full-Power Super Saiyans. Goku and Gohan mastered SSJ in the Hyperbolic Chamber (I suppose) and used those 10 ten days to relax before the fight, while still getting used to the transformation. So they presumably had been slightly weaker when fighting Broly than they were when facing Perfect Cell. So what power level could have LSSJ Broly? As the others have said before me, in the Second Coming Gohan was using SS2 against him, even though there were no sparks. That would be not the only case when SS2 had no sparks (or had only a brief moments with them) in the anime (like Goku SS2 vs Kid Buu and Vegeta SS2 vs Kid Buu). So, this (probably) SS2 could deal only minor damage to Broly, and still was dominated. So my conjecture is, that Broly's power level was around SS3 (slightly weaker), or, if Gohan wasn't SS2 in the 2nd movie - at least significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 (like 1,5 times stronger).

LordGalvatron 20:41, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

LSS Broly > SS2 Gohan, and SS3 > SS2. That's all we really know. We have no idea how much greater either one is than the other, and as such no real basis for comparing LSS with SS3. -- Nonoitall talk contr​​​​ 06:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, except for maybe Goku's appearance in the final moments of Bio Broly, which even if he actually weren't worried (seeing his reaction when he heard from Bubbles that he has to fight Broly with Pikkon [WHAT?! Now Broly's acting up in @#!*% , and Grand Kai wants me and Pikkon to go there to calm him down?!], I wouldn't say he was completely unworried.), that doesn't mean his SSJ3 form is stronger than Broly's LSSJ form. If I must point out, Goku was initally unworried about Frieza's power level on their first encounter, and he later had some doubts about beating him (not that it stopped him from trying, unlike, oh, Vegeta with Broly, but still). Same with Vegeta when he went "super saiyan" against Frieza (Yes, I know he didn't actually go super saiyan, but he did act like he did). Let's just leave it out, for now. For all we know, Broly may have increased in power significantly to actually rival Goku's SSJ3 form by the time news went out in regards to Broly's rampage in @#!*% . BTW, I'm not disagreeing with you, Nonotail, I'm actually agreeing.

Read the manga. Every instance of SS2 has multiple sparks around the aura. Besides, there's no such thing as "facial features", I believe it's only the new ways of drawing that were currently being implemented to the show. Gohan was SS1 in Second Coming, without a shade of doubt. Xfing 11:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

If you are so certain, why don't you compare SSJ2 World Tournament Gohan's face with Gohan's face in Broly Second Coming? And anyways, new artstyles aside, Gohan had one huge lock of hair in that fight. SSJ/FPSSJ Gohan at that time had two. And if Gohan was indeed SSJ1/FPSSJ in that fight instead of SSJ2, please explain why Broly seemed to try to transform into LSSJ just from witnessing Gohan's transformation (especially seeing how Broly's reaction upon seeing it implies that he was shocked and horrified, which implies that he couldn't beat it in his SSJ form alone), when Broly himself already defeated Goten and Trunk's SSJ/FPSSJ forms using his SSJ form alone, without even trying to transform?
Alright, I've come to terms with some stuff. I've accepted that Goku and Gohan were indeed Full Power in Movie #8, while Gohan was using SS2 against Broly in his Second Coming. Still, this doesn't make him all that impressive. Perfect Cell using his full power which he demonstrated after SS2 Gohan beat him up, was implied to be able to kill all the Z-fighters with ease, while all Broly managed to do in quite a long period of time was beat them up badly. He was definitely stronger than the Full-Powered Super Saiyans, but judging by his feats, he could be not more than 1,5 as strong at the time. As of the Second Coming, he sure became much stronger, his LSS form going into the SS2 spectrum - but it still doesn't say much, since SS2 Gohan (weaker than he was during the Cell Games) was still able to keep up with him for a while. The power difference would be not bigger than 1,2x in Broly's favor in that case, meaning that Cell Games SS2 Gohan could very well be as strong or stronger than him.Xfing 12:38, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Time to end this.

I have noticed that some people are trying to downplay Broly's power by claiming that Gohan was only Super Saiyan 1/ Full Power Super Saiyan during their rematch in Broly: Second Coming. Since it is canonically proven that he IS Super Saiyan 2 during that Battle, I want to put this to an end.

First of all, Gohan, after he had transformed, had only one bang in front of his face (Other than the old "bio-electric sparks" indicator, another good way to differentiate between SSJ and SSJ2 (or in this case, FPSSJ and SSJ2) is via the amount of locks on their hair.). Had he been a Full Power Super Saiyan, or heck, even a Regular Super Saiyan, he would have had one big lock and one tiny lock of hair.

Second of all, Broly TRANSFORMED into the Legendary Super Saiyan right after witnessing Gohan transform (and his facial expression implied that he realized that he can't beat it in his current form shortly before transformation.). Seeing how. A. He was strongly implied in the movie to have become significantly stronger over the seven year coma, and B. He pretty much beat Goten and Trunk's SSJ/FPSSJ forms (I'm not sure which of the two it was, to be honest, seeing how, they hadn't trained their SSJ forms (or at least, weren't seen to have trained), they should theoretically be just Regular Super Saiyans, but the fact that their facial features resemble their Base form more than a Regular Super Saiyan would imply that they were FPSSJs.) without breaking a sweat in his SSJ form alone (in the case of SSJ Trunks, he beat him twice), so if he could beat up not one, but TWO SSJs/FPSSJs in his SSJ form alone, then, IF Gohan had only transformed into a FPSSJ, then Broly wouldn't have even needed to go Legendary Super Saiyan.

Basically, stop trying to change it.

Agreeed to everything you said Super Saiyan 3 > Legendary Super Saiyan always [EvoltionMaster]

  • I agree to all what you've said. LordGalvatron 16:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

SS2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Broly. If broly was stronger than a SS2 in his first movie, he would have ended the lives of all his opponents with single punches - EVEN had they been FPSS at the time. And they weren't. SS2's power is BY FOLDS superior to SS1's power. Although Broly dominated all of his opponents, it would be far more logical to assume that the battle was still much below the level of FPSS. Proof? When Gohan fought Cell as SS2, Cell powered up revealing his "True Power" - one he kept latent for all of his fight with Goku. All of the Z-fighters were awestruck with this new power, saying that no one could possibly touch Cell now (implying at least a 3x increase). Gohan in SS2 sent him flying with a single punch, even after Cell "buffed up", Gohan made him regurgitate #18 with a single punch too. I'd say he was at the very least 6x stronger than Goku at FPSS, yet he did what he did to an opponent weaker than himself say 2x. Therefore it would be FOLLY to say that LSS is stronger than SS2, or Broly would have ended the battle with a single kiai. Hope you get my points, Broly fanboys. Xfing 11:13, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Goku and Gohan were indeed FPSSJ in the movie (The fact that they occasionally had their base-model's facial features, and tended to have that more than the SSJ's stern 24/7 facial features indicated this as well.). Broly may not have been stronger than a SSJ2 in the 8th Movie, but he was certainly stronger than a SSJ2 in the 10th movie (or at least SSJ2 Gohan). Also, FPSSJ Goku had delivered a Warp Kamehameha wave at point blank range that blew apart Cell's entire upper half, and when Cell did eventually regenerate, it was revealed that most of his ki abilities were severely weakened because of the regeneration. Broly, on the other hand, took a Kamehameha wave from Goku and aside from laughing it off, did not even affect him at all. That alone implies that he was actually far stronger than Cell, maybe even a SSJ2, had it been recently discovered by that point (Even if Cell was holding back most of his power, he still shouldn't lose that much of his Ki potential from regenerating.). It's already confirmed that Gohan fought Broly as a SSJ2 in the Movie 10 section of the 6th Daizenshuu, anyways, so it's at least anime canon that LSSJ is stronger than SSJ2.
Cell was holding back a massive amount of his power when fighting SSJ Goku. Piccolo said that he loses energy when he regenerates, IIRC. It has nothing to do with the Kamehameha, unless for some reason he loses energy equal to the power of the thing that blew off whatever it was that he needs regenerating. xOmega 11:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
As for SSJ2 Gohan taking out Cell in one hit, Gohan had actually delivered two hits to Cell, which, while with some difficulty, he did recover, then Gohan did a roundhouse kick after catching Cell's kick, parried his blows, countered Cell's Super Kamehameha easily with a Quick Kamehameha (I'm a bit surprised that Cell had even survived the blast, seeing how Gohan's Quick Kamehameha was far more powerful than Cell's Super Kamehameha, the latter of which is implied to have enough power to destroy Earth in a matter of seconds upon impact, which should have completely vaporized Cell. I mean, sure, it caused significant damage, but still, the fact that his own Super Kamehameha was deflected/absorbed by the Quick Kamehameha should have killed him.), and THEN after Cell buffs up did he do enough Damage against Cell (a Kick to the face and a punch to the Gut.), so it wasn't really that easy as you claimed it to be.
To xOmega, 1. don't post in the middle of my post. 2. Yes, Cell does lose energy when regenerating, but it's NOT to the extent that he most of his energy reserves from recovering from that attack (It's implied that he lost a significant amount of energy due to the attack.). Plus, seeing how he has also started to actually dominate over Goku (implying that he's gotten closer to reaching his maximum power) prior to the Warp Kamehameha, he shouldn't have been fried by the Kamehameha that easily. I mean, Broly didn't even receive a mark from Goku's Kamehameha, so why would Cell be able to be fried that easily?
Did you not read the part where I said he was holding back a MASSIVE amount of power? By the way, it's hard to tell when someone posts twice and if it's a different person if you're anonymous--XOmega 6:35 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I did read that, but the way they were talking about how they lost energy (Goku by utilizing the Warp Kamehameha, and Cell from regenerating from the blast) implies that Cell lost a lot of his reserve energy. The fact that he also gave Cell a senzu bean to recover to their prime for Gohans fight with him is also evidence of this. Plus, seeing how he had already exposed probably about half of his overall power by that point (Cell said that while he may be holding back, he also admitted that that he was going to gradually increase his power during the match.) Two Powerups from Cell were seen during the match. First was when Cell and Goku powered up during the true first round of the match (the match prior to it was a warmup.), each time, Goku was facing more difficulty than before. Also, there was a point in the anime where Cell was using Multi-form, and all four of his forms were fighting relatively evenly with Goku, and giving him somewhat of a challenge, which implies that Cell (without Multiform) was four times as strong as Goku by then. After the Super kamehameha incident, they then fought fiercer than before (resulting in Goku nearly falling off the ring), after the Ring was blown up completely, that was when they had fought fiercest at their strongest forms, which implies that Cell is basically far above Goku by then. Goku then tries to use a Chou Kamehameha to blow him apart. Honestly, even WITH the holding back of his immense power (though really, he was completely above Goku by that point, which I estimate was about half of his overall power, at least), he should still be somewhat unharmed by the Kamehameha Wave (In comparison to how harmed he was by it, I mean. Maybe not completely unharmed but minimal damage, at the very least.)
You seem to have forgotten yet another powerup of Cell's - he powered up to his absolute maximum against SS2 Gohan after he destroyed the Cell Juniors. This new power was boasted by Cell to be able to strike terror in the hearts of the Z-fighters, and this proved true, suggesting that he went at least twice (or probably more) from what he was like when fighting Goku and Gohan. It's reasonable to assume that such a power would be more than enough to easily kill all of the Z-fighters, something which Broly failed to do. Still, SS2 Gohan utterly defeated him. Xfing 12:48, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
Also, that post wasn't "two posts", it was one single post that was made. All those were were two paragraphs. And If I tried to sign my posts, I'd only be giving away my IP address.

A commentary regarding Broly.

I totally agree as well. I'm new here, and I'd just like to add a comment or two. If you've ever seen the OVA movie "Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jins", there is a quote by Goku in the movie that states Hatchyack, the villain, is just as strong as Broly. Goku and the Gohan are on Earth during the beginning of the movie and both can turn Super Saiyan. Piccolo is around the same strength as them just like in Movie 8. This supports that Goku and Gohan had already come outside of the Room of Spirit and Time, because Piccolo had his advanced training in the room after Goku and Gohan came out of it. Another interesting fact is that Piccolo makes mention of Mr. Satan. They don't even see Mr. Satan until Goku and Gohan come outside of the Time Chamber. So the fact that Piccolo knows about him from seeing the T.V. commercials indicates to us the level of strength Goku and Gohan are at in the movie. The importance of Broly being compared to Hatchyack's strength in the OVA is that Goku and Gohan could'nt have been weaker in Movie 8 than in the OVA. If Broly and Hatchyack are indeed ajust about equal in power, Goku and Gohan would have to be the same strength in Movie 8 as they are in the OVA movie, otherwise they wouldn't have beaten Broly and Goku would be an idiot for saying something false. Obviously this isn't the case, so Goku and Gohan are actually MSSjin in Movie 8.

What's interesting about the movies are that Goku and Gohan are at base state. Why they are is probably because of the creator's meddling with it. The facts seem to indicate besides this that Goku and Gohan are MSSjin in Movie 8. If you also compare Gohan's size in Movie 8 to his size as he was when he was half-way through the Time Chamber in the manga, he is noticably bigger in Movie 8. This only indicates more of what I've been driving at. Because Goku and Gohan are MSSjins in Movie 8 Broly is probably up there with Complete Cell's full power. I'll try to end this quick now. If Broly is that strong then it means that he is most likely as strong as SSjin 2 Teen Gohan or SSjin 2 Vegeta in Movie 10. I also agree with one of the notions made that Gohan's hair does depict what level of Super Saiyan he is at, but only before the World Tournament. If you look in the manga, and even the anime I believe, Gohan's hair in the Great Saiyaman Arc is different from his hair during the world tournament and beyond. During Gohan's early Great Saiyaman days he has two hair strands as a Super Saiyan. Logically, he would only have one strand as an SSjin 2 because this is shown throughout the series. In Movie 10, the first time Gohan transforms he has one hair strand across his face. The second time Gohan transforms he has two hair strands. What seems to be indicated by this is that this movie takes place before the World Tournament because Gohan has two hair stands after his second transformation. Since his first transformation shows him with one hair strand then that means he is different and an SSjin 2, regardless of his lack of sparks. [by the way, Goku is SSjin 2 in Movie 12 and 13 and he doesn't have sparks around his aura, so this is no where near farfetched. DON'T LISTEN TO THE BROLY-HATER'S LIES! :D] That's an observable proof that Gohan was an SSjin 2 in Movie 10. And of course, when you take into account that Goku and Gohan were MSSjins in Movie 8, it is only a mandatory truth because of Broly's zenkai. If Gohan was MSSjin in Movie 8 and he was demolished in a couple attacks by Broly, how is a weaker SSjin Gohan going to fight a stronger Broly in Movie 10 and manage to do better than before?

Just a few things I wanted to add here. Hopefully this helps. 10:36, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Wintergreen5000

But Canon proof contradicts this. No lightning = no SS2, simple as that. the OVA is non-canon, and should not be taken into consideration in a debate. I am not a Broly hater and I like his character, but I can simply see the truth. LSS = MSS in power potential, not any higher. Xfing 11:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the 6th Daizenshuu already confirmed that Gohan was SS2 in the 10th movie. His hair strand gave it away. Besides which, the Daizenshuu even stated that the reason why Gohan didn't have any sparks in the movie was because they simply forgot to add them in. It's no different than how Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were shown to not have sparks from time to time (most notably when Gohan had transformed into a SSJ2 in the World Tournament and only spent a millisecond with sparks surrounding him.).

Careful who edit broly that impossible that Gohan turn to SSJ2 if there is no bio-electricity around him.That makes him a Super saiyan anyway

Any how Gohan is much weaker back then as Vegeta says "Gohan is alot powerful when he fought with Cell"

Ahhh... can you try to explain what you mean in the first statement? It's a bit garbled.
For the second point, yes, Gohan was much weaker now than during the Cell Games, but it ultimately doesn't matter either way. As evidenced by Gohan's statement that Broly's "As much of a challenge as the last time we fought", Broly's far stronger than he was in Movie 8. Also, going by Broly's reaction to Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan 2, Gohan would have most likely given Super Saiyan Broly a hard time as a Super Saiyan 2, and transformed into LSSJ so he can beat Gohan. Going by Gohan's statement during the first part of their fight, Broly would have demolished SSJ2 Teen Gohan in that movie should they have fought again, and that's even assuming that SSJ2 Teen Gohan would have had a chance (Goku's reaction when Broly threatened Gohan implies that Teen Gohan probably wouldn't have stood a chance against Broly, even WITH his hidden power.).
Oh come on. Cell Games SS2 Gohan is considerably stronger than World Tournament SS2 Gohan. Actually, it only took five combined powers of weak and beaten Z-Warriors to defeat Broly, and Super Saiyan 2 alone would generate manyfold greater power than that. Even assuming that Gohan was SS2 in the second coming, that doesn't mean he's anywhere near SS3. SS2 World Tournament Gohan was the weakest SS2 ever shown - after 7 years of training Goku was at least thrice as strong as Gohan was, so a strong SS2 could still probably defeat movie 10 Broly. Xfing 15:34, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
And in Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, Goku [who, BTW, knew about Gohan's SSJ2 ability before Gohan did, as evidenced in that flashback in Cell's Mighty Breakdown, filler or not] told Gohan to flee shortly after Broly threatened Gohan [Broly: Kakarot, how much do you love your son?! (chuckles)]. If Gohan was indeed stronger than Broly, Goku would NOT have told Gohan to flee. Heck, Gohan didn't even want to leave the fight [he was about to complain to his Father about having to leave. In fact, it was only after a very firm "NOW" from Goku that Gohan heeded his Father's advice. In other words, he was very reluctant to retreat]. And anyways, the only reason why the characters even beat Broly is because Goku punched him in his stomach [which was where Broly was stabbed at when he was a baby.], which needed a lot of power, anyways. In case you haven't noticed, not once did any of the Z-fighters hit him in the stomach prior to his defeat. And anyways, think about it, if you honestly think he's pathetic just because he was beaten by Goku's absorbing the Z-fighters's remaining energy reserves, don't you think that one of the Z-fighters would have inflicted some sort of injury on Broly when they actually connected the hits on him [like for example, Round 3, where they were fresh thanks to the Senzu Beans.].
I believe it was done for plot reasons. A movie needs to be climactic - had Gohan Transformed into Super Saiyan 2 the fight would be practically over at that point - the writers had to assume that Gohan has not transformed into SS2 yet. Dude.... a considerably weaker SS2 Gohan seven years later was able to keep up with a Zenkai-strengthened Broly (if not for long). The power difference between SS2 Gohan and Broly obviously wasn't as large as between Cell Games Gohan and his self seven years later. Xfing 16:12, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Stupidity mistaken bet. the power of Super Perfect Cell and LSSJ broly?

A lot of people like Broly so much just because his power exceeds Cell and some villains. But it doesn't matter, In fact this whole thing doesn't make sense that all people like this for example:

Jap fans overrate about Broly..way too much They claim that Broly in his normal state can beat majin Buu and Super Perfect Cell and in LSSJ mode he could even take Mystic Buu in few punches I don't think Broly could do that. this is doesn't make any sense Majin/mystic Buu is far more powerful than a SS3 due to his power but the fat one is weaker.And Super Perfect Cell is too powerful too as much as mystic Buu is (not equal).

SSJ2 Teen Gohan is much stronger than SSJ2 adult Gohan but weaker than Super Perfect Cell, and would probably be able to beat Broly. (which is true)

Sometimes this is the best that people need to stop about Broly change into the Legendary Super Saiyan right after witnessing Gohan transform (and his facial expression implied that he realized that he can't beat it in his current form shortly before transformation.). Seeing how. A. He was strongly implied in the movie to have become significantly stronger over the seven year coma, and B. He pretty much beat Goten and Trunk's SSJ/FPSSJ forms (I'm not sure which of the two it was, to be honest, seeing how, they hadn't trained their SSJ forms (or at least, weren't seen to have trained), they should theoretically be just Regular Super Saiyans, but the fact that their facial features resemble their Base form more than a Regular Super Saiyan would imply that they were FPSSJs.) without breaking a sweat in his SSJ form alone (in the case of SSJ Trunks, he beat him twice), so if he could beat up not one, but TWO SSJs/FPSSJs in his SSJ form alone, then, IF Gohan had only transformed into a FPSSJ, then Broly wouldn't have even needed to go Legendary Super Saiyan. Also this is needs to be stop. I also a Broly/Cell fan but that doesn't mean the Super exciting guide changing broly power to get more powerful than a SS3.

During in @#!*% , Cell does trained all day due to his Saiyans and piccolo's Cells to more stronger than a SS2, or even a SS3 (stronger than it till he trained further). Ultimate Perfect.

LSSJ Broly movie happened when teen Gohan was a Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Goku at the time was nearly as powerful as Perfect Cell, but only slightly weaker as mentioned in the show. In the movie, Goku shot a full powered Kamehameha directly into Broly and nothing happened. Broly is far stronger than Cell, but he is arrogant and doesn't take his opponents seriously.

If you followed the story, Frieza Saga Vegeta stated that the Legendary Super Saiyan had no equal. He was the strongest being in existence. His only flaw was his power that consumed him. This is what Broly has, the endless amount of power. His only weakness is his overwhelming pride that all saiyans have. This is how he is always defeated. Broly never shows his true power.

Broly's power level

Ok alot of people clearly don't pay attention to the anime. Broly's power level while "NORMAL" Super Saiyan 1 is at least stronger than the average Super Saiyan 1. This can be seen twice. Once when Super Saiyan (some say Ascended/Ultra Super Saiyan) Vegeta fired a ki blast at RESTRICTED Super Saiyan 1 Broly and it did nothing to him. The second was when Super Saiyan 1 Goten and Trunks were fighting Super Saiyan 1 Broly, they fired several ki blasts at him and he seemed unfazed. Notice that Trunks is fairly strong, due to the fact that he was able to land a punch against his own father when they were both Super Saiyan 1s.

In conclusion Broly while Super Saiyan 1 is much stronger than the average Super Saiyan 1.

Now Legendary Super Saiyan obviously stronger than Super Saiyan 2. The best evidence to support this is in Daizenshuu 6. It states that when Gohan fought Broly in Broly: Second Coming he was indeed Super Saiyan 2, they just forgot to add in the electricity. Also the hair is different. Notice that when Gohan is training for the World Martial Arts Tournament he goes Super Saiyan and has 2 bangs of hair. When he goes Super Saiyan 2 he only has one. In Second Coming he has 1. Also unlike he did in the first Broly, when Gohan is Super Saiyan 2 now he seems to be able to at least do some damage to Broly. But Broly is still able to easily overpower Gohan. Then Gohan (Super Saiyan 2), Goten (Super Saiyan 1), and Goku (Super Saiyan 1, this can be judged by his hair) all fire a kamehameha at Broly. You combine all that power (2+1+1), Broly is almost able to beat them (until Trunks threw him off guard.)

In conclusion when Broly is Legendary Super Saiyan 1, he is at least as strong as a Super Saiyan 3.

  • Note: Broly's power level is constantly increasing, so he may be even more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3.

Here's a couple of other things I'd like to finish up with. Broly achieves his Super Saiyan 3 after Legendary Super Saiyan. The form keeps all the Legendary Super Saiyan traits. So therefore it is Legendary Super Saiyan 3. Since he can achieve the standard Super Saiyan, it is obvious he can achieve normal Super Saiyan 3; just like Goku, Vegeta, and Gotenks can. EchostreamFanJosh

Dude, being able to defeat a weak Super Saiyan 2 and two weak Super Saiyan 1s doesn't mean he was anywhere close to Super Saiyan 3 in strength. The anime companies are stupid and their work is not consistent in the manga where Super Saiyan 2 is multiple times stronger than Super Saiyan 1. Also, the powers in existence at the time of Movie #8 weren't even close to those of a Super Saiyan 3, and it's stupid to think that Goku powered up with the strengths of four weakened comrades could even come close to the power of a Super Saiyan 2, much less so 3. While Broly's power in his Second Coming proved to be sufficient to defeat a Super Saiyan 2 (though noticeably weaker than he used to be 7 years ago), that doesn't make him anywhere close to a Super Saiyan 3 - Dabura also defeated the same SS2 Gohan, although his advantage was debatably slightly smaller than the one that Broly had over him. Still, Dabura was destroyed instantly by Fat Buu not at his full strength. Then Buu proceeded to destroy the more powerful SS2 Majin Vegeta, still not even needing to use his full power. When Buu did power up to his max, though, he was pummeled all over the place by Goku in Super Saiyan 3. That is the difference between a Super Saiyan 2 and 3, so saying that Broly is anywhere close to SS3 just because he managed to defeat a weak SS2 Gohan (who got pwned by Dabura and would get destroyed by Super Perfect Cell) is just stupid. Broly may never have exceeded Cell Games SS2 Gohan's power for all we know. Xfing 13:58, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
Like I said on the Super Saiyan 3 talk page, the form is called Super Saiyan 3, not Legendary Super Saiyan 3. -- 07:43, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

First of all,all the info you just presented is wrong. in broly the second coming, he is defeated by 3 SUPER SAIYAN 1S.and goten barely in reality,he is beaten by something that doesnt,if barely even equal a super saiyan 2.i cant see HOW broly LSSJ could be stronger than an SSJ3. --Silver Sinspawn 09:06, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the only reason why Gohan, Goten and (technically) Goku beat Broly was because Trunks had blocked Broly's eraser cannons from making contact with the Omega Blaster. It was pretty evident that they probably wouldn't have been able to stop Broly if it weren't for Trunks. Also, soory for being brief, but the super exciting guide confirmed that LSSJ was at least as strong, if not marginally stronger than SSJ3, due to the comparisons of SSJ3's power to a SSJ2, and by proxy, SSJ, and how Broly beat up several super saiyans and a super namek ganging up on him without breaking a sweat (and the five of them combined was roughly equal to a SSJ3.). Weedle McHairybug 18:04, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

More Broly Talk

Yeah, uh, I just wanted to comment on what you brought up Silver Sinspawn-about the three Saiyans defeating Broly. The reason why they were able to punch through Broly's ki ball was because of Trunks. If he didn't stop Broly's ki attack from receiving even more power, it would've destroyed them easily, even if they all combined their efforts together. Once Broly's ki attack was cut off from receiving more power it started to wane and it became weakened, naturally. This allowed them to hammer through Broly's attack [once they combined their efforts of course]. The thing is though, since Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 when he first fights LSSjin Broly it means that there is no plausible way that mere Super Saiyans could plow through LSSjin Broly's ki attack, even at its weakened state [unless it was severely weakened]. It is possible that Goku and Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 right before they combined their efforts as their hair changes before they shoot out the final boost. It's either that or Broly's ki attack was greatly, greatly weakened seconds after he lost the "ki path". But if that were the case, then there is no reason for him to have put on his shield because he is at the SSjin 2 level of strength while Goku and Gohan would be at the SSjin 1 level. He could've tanked it and it would've been no problem for him. So, I do believe that Gohan and Goku went SSjin 2 [similar to how Goku released a burst of SSjin 2 energy against Yakon] right before they combined their efforts together to shatter Broly's ki attack. This would make sense for Broly to put up his shield. Obviously, the Triple Super Kamehameha wasn't enough to penetrate Broly's energy shield, but it was more than enough to push him to the Sun. Now, if you do believe the Triple Super Kamehameha is what killed him, then why, I ask, doesn't it kill him until he gets to the Sun? The Triple Super Kamehameha is not what killed him. The Sun is what killed him. The Triple Super Kamehameha is what launches him through the Sun. If you see the sequnce where he dies, he goes through the entire Sun, from one end to the other. Quite the death if you ask me. Lastly, if Goku and Gohan were both SSjin 2 when they shot off that combined ki attack, it would mean that LSSjin Broly is stronger than both SSjin 2 Adult Gohan [weakened by the fight mind you] and a fresh SSjin 2 Goku combined because their attack was not enough to punch through Broly's ki shield. Wintergreen5000 17:05, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

Why must you obsess over broly. he is THE worst character in all of Dragon Ball/Z/GT. --Silver Sinspawn 11:05, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
I understand that you hate Broly, but please, don't let your hate for a character blind you towards said character's true strength. Personally, I don't really care all that much about Broly (although I do have some respect for him), but I just looked at his power level in a pragmatic, mathematical level, and, reallly, he is far from the worst character in all of DB/Z/GT. Besides, Wintergreen5000 does have a point: in order for him to have truly been incapable of defeating two weak ssjs/a ghost of a ssj, don't you think that the very instant they fired that triple Kamehameha, they'd break through the Omega Blaster before Broly could even get the chance to fuel it more? Weedle McHairybug 14:23, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
Why does the page say that the green hair is part of the transformation when it's actually caused by the aftereffects of the sealing device?
Also, his hair isn't greenish in Second Coming. It's regular golden yellow. 23:23, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
There is a slight greenish tint without the aftereffects of Paragus's controlling device in Second Coming BrolythelegendBroly 7 00:41, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Legendary Super Saiyan 4

Is their a possibilty of a Legendary Super Saiyan 4?

Yes, it just doesn't exist. TeenGotenksSSJ4 SonikFan112 GotenksNV 23:40, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

I bet that the SS4 is stronger than LSS.. Because going Super Saiyan 4 from SS3 is just like going Super Saiyan from Saiyan because:-

1. Goku fought frieza in his normal form and even his Kaio-ken x20 could do nothing to Frieza who was not even trying however once we Super Saiyan Goku their roles become Polar Opposites with Goku not even trying his best to defeat Frieza...

2. Similarly SS3 Goku wasn't able to defeat Baby Vegeta who again wasn't even trying but once he went SS4 their roles became completely opposite with Goku not even trying his best to defeat baby and just letting baby hit him so that he can see who is stronger and GOku even said that baby's full-power punches tickled him...

It actually does exist, just not in the official canon.--Hulk10 (talk) 02:23, October 15, 2018 (UTC)

Destroyed a Galaxy

I put in the artical that Broly destroyed a Galaxy in the begining of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, but people keep removing it. I would at least like to know why this keep happening, when the infromation is correct. 03:31, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I believe they may be right. KisukeKillerBaka9 is a greedy merchant! Urahara 3 03:32, January 24, 2012 (UTC)
Right about what? 03:37, January 24, 2012 (UTC)
I believe the narrator meant he had destroyed the planets within that galaxy, 'cause no one can just destroy a galaxy on a whim - not even Broly. ~ November Blue 03:40, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

"In the first movie Broly appeared in, the opening sequence shows Broly has enough power to destroy a galaxy in moments, but this happened while he was still under his Father's control so it isn't known if this was achieved while in his normal Super Saiyan form or in his Legendary form."

I think that statement needs to be rewritten before it is put into the article. SSJ4 Vegito will Never Grow Up 03:43, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

As far as it is ever implied, it was refering to the Galaxy. I nthe opening sequence it shows the galaxy desappear. That's pretty straight forwords, and any other coversations about the incident also imply the galaxy itself beeing destroy. 03:48, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind the first part, my problem is with the "but this happened while he was still under his Father's control so it isn't known if this was achieved while in his normal Super Saiyan form or in his Legendary form." part of it; it just doesn't agree with me and I think it probably doesn't agree with the other users that have been reverting your edits. SSJ4 Vegito will Never Grow Up 03:51, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

But it's a fair statment to make. It did happen when he was still under his father's control, and we know that when he turns Legendary his fathers control device is broken. It's accurate to the information presented in the movie. 03:55, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

I guess I'll be more specific I don't like this part "it isn't known if this was achieved while in his normal Super Saiyan form or in his Legendary form." it may be true, but it doesn't seem right to me. SSJ4 Vegito will Never Grow Up 03:57, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

What Vegito is saying is that you're making a speculation. Take off that part and the rest is fine. ~ November Blue 04:04, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Okay well the thing here is that if he's still under his father's control, then he's not Legendary Super Saiyan at the time, and it doesn't belong in this article. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 04:11, January 24, 2012 (UTC)
Also, with the form being unsure, the only places where it really belongs are the Broly article, the Dragon Ball Z: Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan article, and the Southern Galaxy article, and it's already in those places. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 04:14, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Legendary Super Saiyan Concept


I don't know where you guys got the idea Toei designed this form but, as with some other movie designs this form was created by Akira Toriyama.Stitchking1 (talk) 21:22, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


Just wondering if Bardock should be added under this page. In "Episode of Bardock," his Super Saiyan transformation is very similar to Broly's, right down to the circular air diffusion (I don't know how else to describe it). In addition, the environment changed when he transformed, just as Broly's did. It could be argued that it was only for effect, but it should also be noted that whatever the case may be, Broly was clearly not a Super Saiyan 1 (note the above references, as well as the lightning aura). 15:01, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

No, since Bardock is just Super Saiyan. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 02:00, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
What makes you say that? All evidence points toward him being some other kind of saiyan state. 15:04, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
All those events (environement changing, thunders, etc.) also happened during Goku's first transformation. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 15:10, August 21, 2012 (UTC)
The circular air diffussion and lightning aura (not sky lightning, I mean the lightning clinging to his body) didn't, though. And while it's true that Goku's environment changed when he powered up, it almost immediately reverted back to normal. When Bardock changed, the sky stayed changed throughout his whole fight.
EDIT: I just watched a bit of Episode of Bardock and in hindsight the lightning aura didn't stay active long. But the sky changed color permenantly and the air diffussion was still there. 20:15, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
bardock should not be mentioned on here at all. there should be no questioning of him being a lssj. lssj is obtained geneticly . if he was one his PL would be way above 11000 Brolylssj Destroys (talk) 21:21, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
Even assuming there were some basis for that being true, Bardock's PL is WAY higher than 11000 in Episode of Bardock. He became a super saiyan, and that's why I'm arguing in favor of that transformation BEING LSSJ. Why is it so hard to accept that there might be one other than Broly? All of the evidence I've provided links him toward that transformation and yet most of it hasn't even been noted on by people trying to disaprove me. 13:51, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Your evidence was addressed by Jeangabin666. These are the same things that happen the first time Goku transformed. Additionally, Bardock's appearance is that of a Super Saiyan. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 00:34, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Don't be absurd. I'm a hardcore Bardock fan too. But we must stick to the facts and not our wishes. He's a regular SSJ, not LSSJ. —This unsigned comment was made by (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!


Unknown91 (talk) 23:38, April 15, 2013 (UTC)Which form is strongest Legendary Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God? & what would happen if Broly acheive Super Saiyan God?

Probably Super Saiyan God. Please make a blog or forum for your what-if question. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 00:37, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan vs LSSJ Broly

Did you guys see base form Gohan's angry kick hurting LSSJ Broly in Second Coming? Man, just imagine Broly against Ultimate Gohan. He wouldn't stand a chance. Also I think that SP Cell is equal to SSj2 teen gohan at the most, not stronger. Cell was just stunned by Vegeta's attack, and also by that someone like Vegeta would jump in to attack someone much more powerful than Vegeta, like him, which was uncharacteristic of Vegeta, allowing Gohan the tiime to focus and release all his energy into the Kamehameha wave, obiliterating the arrogant bio-android, who should've been able to stop the attack if he was stronger, he had enough time to unleash his own energy(which can be done in seconds). And Broly is stronger than SP Cell, just not that smart nor that skilled in fighting(Broly is all brawn no brain fighter) and vast array of techniques(in his arrogance and insanity Broly uses only very few varied attcks and energy spheres only) and no regeration(which is the reason cell survived attacks that would've killed anyone else of his power level, which is also a reason Broly was defeated much easily). Don't get me wrong, I'm a Frieza/Gohan/Cell/Broly/SSJ3 Goku/Super Vegeta fan.

And to those who take cell's Full Power Death Beam breaking Gohan's arm, believe me, his Special Beam Cannon would've killed Gohan if he hadn't deflected it. Vegeta's Final Flash severely damaging Perfect Cell, Goku's Energy Punch almost killing Broly, Goku's Super Kamehameha vaporizing half of Cell's body, Raditz being scared by Goku's Super Kamehameha and killed by Piccolo's Special Beam  Cannon, there are many examples in the dragonball universe of people damaging others with power levels similar to theirs or even higher than them if enough power was put into it. And anyway, there can't be much difference between their power levels. If energy is concentrated into one point, it has more power than when it is spread out, that is the principle of Kamehameha, Masenko, Destructo Disk and Special Beam Cannon. See Piccolo's Plan —This unsigned comment was made by (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

The Female Legendary Super Saiyan

Guys, just because there is a Saiyan who buffs up their muscle and has green hair and aura doesn't mean it's the Legendary Super Saiyan. It could be the Super Saiyan Rage form or some similar form or crying out loud! We don't know yet so wait until Feb 5th, the day of the Super Bowl!

SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 22:14, January 22, 2017 (UTC)

Let's see, has all the same earmarks as the transformation, even the ones that are completely unique to it like green hair, is wearing very similar clothes, and even looks thin and scrawny before. Certainly seems like the form to me. Unless we get confirmation that it's not, then we should keep calling it that. Hadomaru (talk) 22:22, January 22, 2017 (UTC)
There's A Good Chance That She's Not A Legendary Super Saiyan Due To The Fact That Her Appearance In The Form Was Possibly Redesigned Recently. Its Not As Bulky And Has Alot Less Muscles Shown. Bob1200 (talk) 08:04, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


Come on, this is clearly LSSJ!

They just do the different naming to avoid the same content as the movie. --ConTraZ VII (talk) 21:36, June 8, 2017 (UTC)
Just fuse the page with the LSSJ page and when the name is official, separate it from it or merge it. Also, Super Saiyan Berserker is such a stupid name. That's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan levels of stupidity. Pot-O-Greed (talk) 12:37, June 21, 2017 (UTC)
I actually agree. This is basically LSSJ (although it isn't specifically stated in the anime like in Broly's movie). I think it should be in the article, but noted that it isn't stated as such. Just because Vegeta suggested it might be "the Saiyan's true form" doesn't mean that's how it should be canonically addressed. If anythign he could be hinting at the Legendary Super Saiyan form. Banan14kab 18:19, July 24, 2017 (UTC)

That's the reason I had to say that Kale wasn't supposed to be a Saiyan. I'll clearly say it so we can keep with our lives: this form is NOT the "Legendary Warrior" nor the "True/Original form of a Saiyan", Vegeta only said it MIGHT be the "true form of a Saiyan", he never claimed it is, and this form and Vegeta THEORIZING it MIGHT be the "true form of a Saiyan" are only Toyotaro's attempt to destroy Toriyama's statement that the Legendary Warrior has always been the regular Super Saiyan and there's only one other canonical "Legendary Warrior" form so Broly's "Legendary Warrior" could be officially canon. Trust me, if Broly's "Legendary Warrior", also known as Super Saiyan B Type, that Toei made to mantain the idea of the Super Saiyan legend actually talking about a unique warrior whose last case was 1000 years ago (idea that Toriyama wanted to state with the regular Super Saiyan with Frieza's saga being the end of the story and only discarded with the Super Saiyan being available for other warriors with Saiyan blood so other Saiyans like Vegeta or Gohan shouldn't be relegated for being weaker), was good enough to be canon, Toriyama himself would have canonized it AT ITS TIME during Z and its movies, like he did with Bardock and Gogeta (the last one just being officially stated by him as the result of Goku and Vegeta doing the Metamoran dance and just being a What-If scenario as Vegeta canonically refuses to do the dance). And I'm not a Troll, I just want things to turn better, something that won't happen if Toyotaro makes what he wants with Toriyama's work, just check out what he made with the Manga, he said that Gattai Zamas wasn't supposed to be permanent cause none of his fusees was an actual Supreme Kai when if Black wasn't a Supreme Kai, he could have tried to make his Zero Humans "utopia" in his own timeline cause Rumsshi should be dead along with Gowas (as it was clearly stated that he searched for a Timeline with a God of Destruction missing). WIKIMARCO (talk) 23:04, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

Figured I'd correct you given recent information, an interview with Toriyama and Toyotaro heavily implies Zamasu's fusion wasn't permanent, based on information that Potaras being temporary for non-supreme kais was in the original draft, but Vegito wasn't in the original draft, in addition to implications that the original draft had everyone trying to wait out Zamasu's time limit. Most of the routes the manga take seem to be closer to Toriyama's original draft, based on that interview. As for the topic, there's plenty reasons to believe this form is LSS that you've likely already seen now. Gildeds (talk) 03:59, January 3, 2018 (UTC)


This name is not official, and this form equals LSSJ (except the lightning). Even if Broly is not canonical, His transformation has an official name.Sharingan91 (talk) 10:56, July 23, 2017 (UTC)

The form name.

I really think that Super Saiyan Berserker is a better name for the form. It may not be an official name, but so isn't Saiyan's True Form. Though Vegeta did suspect it was the true form, the key word being is "suspect" meaning it's not 100% concrete. Besides, SSB sounds better off the tongue. Do you agree with me on this?Rogeta234 (talk) 17:49, July 24, 2017 (UTC)

No, we should name it Kale's Super Saiyan because it makes sense, less speculation, plus Cabba said it's Kale's Super Saiyan.

So, we have LSSJ2, LSSJ3, and LSSJ4 as names and they aren't official titles. Also, I don't think that is her Super Saiyan form. As you may recall, we did see what she looks like as a SSJ in promotional material. Maybe the form will appear later in the Anime/Manga.Rogeta234 (talk) 20:51, July 24, 2017 (UTC)

There is this image [1], Who can translate?--Sharingan91 (talk) 16:51, July 25, 2017 (UTC)
That image in question doesn't list the name of the form. We're probably going to have to wait until Heroes or Dokkan Battle adds Kale to get an official name. BubbleRevolution (talk) 17:00, July 25, 2017 (UTC)
Ok, and this [2], no name? --Sharingan91 (talk) 17:24, July 25, 2017 (UTC)


Someone fix the name. J spencer93 (talk) 17:02, July 27, 2017 (UTC)

I literally JUST DID. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 21:51, July 27, 2017 (UTC) The Super Saiyan (Beserk) is in deletion right now.

VG name

The name used in Dokkan Battle and DBH is actually just "Rampage", uncontrollable Super Saiyan is the description for the form (in DBH). So the page should probably be renamed either: Rampage (Super Saiyan) or Super Saiyan (Rampage).--Neffyarious (talk) 11:19, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

Actually the name is 暴走, the same as Mira and Xeno Turles' "Runaway" form. 暴走 can mean Runaway/Run wild/Rampage/Berserk/Out of Control--Neffyarious (talk) 11:24, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

The official english sub for Episode 100 translates the 暴走 in the title as "Out of Control", so maybe that should be used?--Neffyarious (talk) 11:28, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps, but lock the page, people will try to change it back. I'll fix the links if you do change the name. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 20:14, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

Form IS Legendary Super Saiyan?

Goku says something along the lines of "Kale has become a Legendary Super Saiyan" in the preview for episode 114. Should we just merge the form with Legendary Super Saiyan and "Super Saiyan Green" with Type-C at this point? Gildeds (talk) 00:53, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

first, if she "becomes the Legendary Super Saiyan", it means her monster Berserk WASN'T the "Legendary Warrior" after all, and second, some people were talking about the true form of a Saiyan with the preview for the episode 100 and in the end it was just Vegeta saying it MAY BE, not stating it is, just theorizing it MAY BE, the "true/original form" WIKIMARCO (talk) 02:35, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

This episodes ends on Kale transforming into Berserk though, and the clip shows Goku being pushed into a wall by what appears to be Berserk Kale. Goku even says "she controls that fierce power and becomes a true Legendary Super Saiyan." Which is completely different from Vegeta saying she MAY BE the "true form" of a Saiyan. Gildeds (talk) 04:19, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

Goku saying that controlling the Berserker form lets her become a true legendary Super Saiyan, does mean that the Berserker form is indeed the legendary Super Saiyan form that Broly used, berserker and legendary should be merged, and "perfect energy control" should be merged with C-type.--Neffyarious (talk) 17:23, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

At this point I honestly agree to just merging the forms. The perceived differences were marginal at best. Gildeds (talk) 19:44, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with the merging. Everything indicates for her Berserker form being basically the B-Type and her controlled one a C-Type as well.The Heretic Lord (talk) 22:39, October 29, 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with merging the pages. In the NEP, Goku says: "She controls that fierce power and becomes a true legendary Super Saiyan!" In this quote, the word "legendary" is not capitalized, showing he's using it as an adjective. There are many examples of non-LSSJ users being referred to as "legendary Super Saiyans". We have no way to tell if this form is the same LSSJ form that Broly used until we get more information. — Final ChidoriTalk 23:34, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
There's an issue with that though. Whether or not Legendary is capitalized in the sub doesn't really mean anything, as the sub is still subject to the interpretation of the person translating it. The person who translated that preview might have no idea who Broly is or that Legendary Super Saiyan is a form. Even VIZ has made similar mistakes when translating the DBS manga, such as accidentally omitting an important reference the the Destruction technique or Supreme Kai mentioning his apprenticeship under Grand Kai during the Black arc. The important part isn't just Kale being called Legendary Super Saiyan, or 伝説の超サイヤ人 (Densetsu no Sūpā Saiyajin), but the fact the preview comes IMMEDIATELY after Kale turns into her Berserk form, and is possibly referencing her controlling that power. That's where the importance of the term "Legendary Super Saiyan" comes into play here. It's far too much to be a coincidence, especially given Kale's CONSTANT parallels to Broly. I'd say we have enough information, with this preview being the final bit needed. This is why I'm fully supportive of Berserker being merged with Legendary and "Perfect energy control" being merged with C Type. Gildeds (talk) 02:52, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
Kale is obviously an homage to Broly, but that doesn't necessarily mean that her form is the exact same LSSJ form Broly uses. Especially because it's almost always referred to by a different name, with the one exception being the 113 NEP (and even that is arguable). We need more conclusive evidence before merging the pages together and potentially misinforming a bunch of people. There's no rush. — Final ChidoriTalk 03:00, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
The thing is, all the other names pretty much just come from video games that needed to give SOME name to it before adding Kale. You say it's always referred to by a different name, but the anime it hasn't even had a name applied to it yet, unless you count "that might be a Saiyan's true form" or "Woah Kale that's ULTRA SUPAH POWAH." Which are more observations regarding the form itself, rather than possible names. Other than "Savage Berserker" being used in a title, all the Berserker names have only appeared in games. Waiting another week at least is probably good, but I still argue we have enough information to safely say it's the same form at this point. Gildeds (talk) 03:46, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Chidori, Broly's form is also just "legendary Super Saiyan", it's an adjective in both Broly and Kale's cases. The Daizenshuu says Broly's form is given the "legendary" title only because it matches the Super Saiyan described in the legend, and of course due to being identical, Kale's form also matches the Super Saiyan described in the legend. In Japanese they are both referred to as 伝説の超サイヤ人 (Densetsu no Sūpā Saiyajin) anyway, it makes no difference whether or not the "L" is capitalized.--Neffyarious (talk) 11:43, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

I'd rather hold off on merging all of them together, mostly because until the games or some other source like the Daizenshuu directly confirms it's meant to be the same form as the one Broly uses, we literally have no way of knowing (and just so we're clear, I'm perfectly okay with Kale getting a Broly-esque form, and in fact her getting that form is literally the only reason I'm invested in such a crappy arc right now. If anything, Kale getting a Broly form is actually a big godsend for some of my artworks because I'm displeased with my initial attempt at doing a similar form for Vanessa.). I mean, should we merge Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue together with Legendary Super Saiyan while we're at it just because they were literally called the Legendary Super Saiyan at least once? It just seems careless and reckless, that's all. Same goes for the Super Saiyan A Type, Super Saiyan C type, and the Super Saiyan perfect control forms being merged. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:45, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

While SS, SSG and SSB have also been called legendary Super Saiyan, it's not the same as this case; Kale's form and Broly's form literally have no differences from each other at all, they're exactly the same in every way. A type is not going to be merged with anything.--Neffyarious (talk) 19:08, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the info, Neff, although I'm still against merging the pages for the reasons Weedle stated. I think we should wait at least a little longer to see if that "legendary Super Saiyan" comment wasn't just a one-off Broly reference and that it's the actual name of the form. — Final ChidoriTalk 21:24, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
I think it's all but confirmed at this point. Goku even called it that in one of the episode previews.--Marhawkman (talk) 20:51, November 24, 2017 (UTC)
Why they only put the names in the preview, not in the main story? ConTraZ VII (talk) 23:25, November 24, 2017 (UTC)

Why fuse this?

I feel as though at best, Kale's form is a tribute to Broly's. While Broly's is unleashed by a glorified trigger word (that being Kakarot), Kale's is unleashed through self-loathing and overwhelming emotion. While Broly's form is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, Kale remained unscratched by even Super Saiyan Blue Goku. (Albeit she didn't scratch Goku, but her true form was holding God Goku off and remaining unscathed against it.) Besides, with Broly being so popular, they would want to completely cash in on his form by using it's name for Kale, right?

While the appearance looks similar, and Kale happened to use Broly's moves, (obvious sign of a tribute) the strength, way of transforming, and even the aura, are vastly different. KronoDX (talk) 04:45, November 23, 2017 (UTC)

What you just said having no sense - Broly transforms not because of the repeating some word (so as Kale), and any transformation power level depends from it's user.--Date450190486 14:04, November 23, 2017 (UTC)

That's simply false. Transformations have set power boosts for every user. Super Saiyan is 50x, Super Saiyan 2 is 100x, 3 is 400x. Saying that Kale's form is Legendary, but stronger than Broly's usage of the same form for no logical reason is just pulling hope out of thin air because you think it's the same form. All other evidence suggests it's a mere tribute, not just the same form with numerous important, key differences for no reason at all. You might as well say that Super Hedgehog from Sonic is the same thing as Super Saiyan with your logic. The only similarity is the physical appearance of Kale and Broly's body while in their respective forms. Absolutely anything else is a tribute at best. People simply stretch the similarities to incorrect levels, such as ignoring the aura, personality, or power differences. Unlike Legendary, Berserk makes you go mindless and wild. She could hardly form proper sentences, unlike Broly who was saying numerous full and intelligent sentences in the first movie. KronoDX (talk) 18:57, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

Really? when did Toriyama-sama say that the forms had specific set power level boosts? Last I heard he didn't even like having power level numbers. So what you say doesn't make sense. Also.... Kale apparently went berserk only because she hadn't mastered the form. Once she mastered the form she became much stronger when using it. Granted she also became less bulky, but.. enh.--Marhawkman (talk) 09:19, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Possibly another reason to fuse the page with LSS

Broly Kale comic

Broly and Kale comic in V-Jump

I found a short comic from V-Jump featuring Kale and Broly. While the comic itself is by no means "canon" and I have no clue if it's drawn by anyone of official note in Dragon Ball (though it likely isn't), it appears V-Jump itself calls Kale and Broly Legendary Super Saiyan. V-Jump's words could also be considered something notable as plenty of Dragon Ball information has been published there, in addition to Super being serialized in V-Jump.

Of course this should be double checked by someone who could potentially translate the entire thing, as my attempt at translating the box at the top gave the potentially vague and most likely incorrect title "Legendary Super Saiyan: Two-way Tour"

If V-Jump is calling Kale a Legendary Super Saiyan, that might be note-enough to merge the pages.

You translate it right. It sounds like a legit reason.--Date450190486 07:52, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

I have an opinion that the Kale's "Berserk" form is actually just the "SS Grade 3" since Caulifla mentions the "Ultra Super Saiyan" name. It's maybe Toei just change the color from yellow to green. You know, to hype everything up, just like Future Trunks' power. ConTraZ VII (talk) 03:50, December 29, 2017 (UTC)

This form was never named by that "Ultra" in Japan - it's a localisation error. Ultra Super Saiyan in Japan - it's a Super Saiyan 3.--Date450190486 07:20, December 29, 2017 (UTC)
I'm just saying, at this point, the form is identical to LSS in every fathomnable way (except possibly being even stronger, but even that could also just be pinned on Toei's generally horrid power-scaling), has a successor form called "True Legendary Super Saiyan", has a predecessor form seemingly equivalent to Broly's Type C, and now, has seemingly been called Legendary Super Saiyan in V-Jump once. I'm down for waiting for the manga to explain it, as the manga seemingly tends to do. The manga also tends to go the most obvious route from my point of view, so I doubt they'd call it Grade 3. But I'll be darned if by now it doesn't feel like we're just beating a dead horse, and it's just a few people who wish to cling to the thought it's something different, fervently in denial of everything Toei has done with this character.
It can't be Grade 3 in the anime either, as Caulifla uses that form and Goku immediately chastises her for using it. Mind you, Goku doesn't even refer to Grade 3 by a name. It's just instinctually obvious to the viewer that it's the same form Trunks had been using, and we know it's not Grade 2 due to the sufferage in speed she experiences as well as the ridiculous muscular/hair expansion in Caulifla. We can use this same logic for Kale. Power isn't the best indicator of everything, but everything else about her is a good indicator. Gildeds (talk) 08:24, December 29, 2017 (UTC)
I definitely think it'd be best to fuse the three pages, and write them as variations of the same thing. It's not even clear from an in-universe perspective if Kale's TLSSJ form is even a different transformation than BSSJ. Toriyama-sama and Toyotaro-san went out of their way to point out how similar it is to Broly's transformation. Thus it seems likely to me that it was simply their way of saying it's the same as Broly without actually mentioning Broly.
As for power scaling? Toriyama-sama doesn't like attaching numbers to character power levels. He sees it as an impediment to telling a good story. Yes, he came up with the scouter idea, but he apparently decided he didn't like how it played out.--Marhawkman (talk) 17:35, December 29, 2017 (UTC)

Then just wait for the manga. I'm pretty use it will be explained in the next chapter, hopefully. Even if it is LSS, it' still weaker than SS2 but stronger than SS1, according to the movie. I'm not sure if Grade C is stronger than SS2 because Adult Gohan doesn't see to use SS2 in the movie. Or not? ConTraZ VII (talk) 23:28, December 29, 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't try to go there, since that concept of how it works isn't the way the writers seem to go about it. they seem to treat new forms and stuff as plot devices to make characters stronger. They don't actually use numbers when writing. LSSJ Broly was able to give teen Gohan everything he could handle and more. This was him years after Cell games. But as with the time a reporter asked Michael J Straczynski "How fast can a Starfury fly?", the answer is that the characters are as strong as the plot demands them to be. Kale's mastered legendary form was a LOT stronger than SS2 Caulifla. She was able to throw down with SSG Goku and not get curb stomped.--Marhawkman (talk) 00:29, December 30, 2017 (UTC)

You mean, Kale's final form? Yeah, he can somehow managed to beat SSG Goku occasionally but you must remember, Goku are fighting two people at the same time. But they still lose to Goku SSG and force them to use Potara as final resort, which still means Goku can still beat both of them in SSG. Goku only get serious to SSB when Kefla emerges. So I can say here Kale's final form is merely at SS3 level or slightly lower than SSG. ConTraZ VII (talk)

Indeed, V-Jump refers to Broly and Kale's forms as the same here.--Neffyarious (talk) 22:53, January 2, 2018 (UTC)

  • V-Jump isn't Toriyama --WIKIMARCO (talk) 01:17, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

Toriyama does not do any comments yet so far about this so we can get ourselves with other official sources like V-Jump. But the color is yellow there instead of green. ConTraZ VII (talk) 02:50, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

Plenty of information has come from V-Jump in the past. Like ConTraZ says, we can infer information from other official sources when information everywhere else is vague. V-Jump itself is something I'd consider a better indirect source for Dragon Ball information than most. Gildeds (talk) 02:54, January 3, 2018 (UTC)

The design sheet for the ToP arena refers to this form as Kale "turning into Broly", which is further reasoning to merge this with LSS.--Neffyarious (talk) 14:00, January 12, 2018 (UTC)

Really? Jeez. That sounds pretty definitive. Gildeds (talk) 19:53, January 12, 2018 (UTC)

So can finally merge the pages now after all of these sources kept saying their one in the same now. DragonEmeperor (talk) 02:50, January 13, 2018 (UTC)

"Kale's Broly Transformation" or "Kale's Broly-like Transformation"? ConTraZ VII (talk) 04:00, January 13, 2018 (UTC)

Herms98 on twitter translates it as both "Broly transformation" and "turning into Broly". I assume they're either interchangeable, or the latter is more accurate. It's pretty much explicit at this point that she's using the same transformation. Gildeds (talk) 06:43, January 13, 2018 (UTC)

It's just keep it Legendary Super Saiyan since both forms are basically one and the same. DragonEmeperor (talk) 05:10, January 13, 2018 (UTC)

What's disturbing me is why they never mention it in the series. It's only mentioned outside the series and only in the preview, not in the actual episode. ConTraZ VII (talk) 01:50, January 14, 2018 (UTC)

I mean, Toei seems to be somewhat incompetent at explaining or naming any non-Goku forms for Super. Look at Super Saiyan Rage, Berserker/Legendary, and guess what, Vegeta's new form in today's episode too. Even Rose didn't really get any explanation until the manga showcased it. Don't find it too disturbing, expect nothing at this point. Gildeds (talk) 02:41, January 14, 2018 (UTC)

I'm with you. I believe this is Toei's addition too and not available in the original script. ConTraZ VII (talk) 00:51, January 15, 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that necessarily. I honestly believe the form is also going to appear in the manga, since that's Kale's main point for existing, and she still has elements of Broly's design there. My point was mainly that Toei doesn't like explaining other forms, which happened even when Super Saiyan Rose in regards to the anime. Gildeds (talk) 14:48, January 15, 2018 (UTC)

Okay, let's just wait then. ConTraZ VII (talk) 23:46, January 15, 2018 (UTC)

Considering all of the above info, plus the latest interview stating that Kale is literally just Broly but female, it seems it's about time to merge the pages.--Neffyarious (talk) 15:25, March 15, 2018 (UTC)

At this point it feels like waiting for more evidence is kinda just like beating a dead horse and waiting for more people with sticks. Gildeds (talk) 16:09, March 15, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, Toriyama-sama and Toyotaro-san have gone to a lot of trouble to say "this is the same thing" several times.--Marhawkman (talk) 15:10, March 18, 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Kale is created to after Broly's popularity and it's brought by anime staff. ConTraZ VII (talk) 23:43, March 18, 2018 (UTC)

I will explain it here

As this battle about Berserk's identity has reached the highest and i haven't explained it here, i will do it so we can end this once and for all:

First, what Goku says during a Preview is totally out of context unless someone say it during an episode, and no one said at any moment during any episode that Kale is the "Legendary Super Saiyan", so it must have been a mistake with the script

Second, that thing from V-Jump comparing Kale with Broly is only a reference to Kale's design, like that "turning into Broly" term, so as i know not even the Spin-Off material actually calls her "Legendary Super Saiyan"

And third, Broly's summary state his B-Type Super Saiyan is in fact the Legendary Super Saiyan that only appears once every 1000 years, but Toriyama has always stated the Legendary Super Saiyan form is in fact the base Super Saiyan debuted with Goku during Frieza's battle in Namek, so both Broly's summary and Toriyama's statements are incompatible with each other, saying that Kale is the "Legendary Warrior" or that her Berserker is the same as Broly's B-Type will never work. WIKIMARCO (talk) 17:50, March 19, 2018 (UTC)

  • V-Jump calls it LSS, Toei said the only difference between Kale and Broly is gender, the art for the stage refers to the form as "turning into Broly". They are the same form.--Neffyarious (talk) 18:00, March 19, 2018 (UTC)
    • As i said a while before, V-Jump isn't Toriyama, and as i said this time, both the "turning into Broly" term for Berserk and that thing from V-Jump with both Broly and Kale are just references to Kale being based on Broly, not actual statements. I guess this won't end 'til this year's movie, which I hope shows Yamoshi's legend (as the Super Saiyan is absolutely important for the Saiyan race's evolution) so we all can see how the Legendary Warrior form actually looked like. WIKIMARCO (talk) 18:12, March 19, 2018 (UTC)
  • V-Jump does not need to be Toriyama to be an official source.--Neffyarious (talk) 18:24, March 19, 2018 (UTC)

And I'll tell you what I said on the Berserker talk page.

At this point it's basically repeating an argument. You've ignored every point I made to refute you to this point and right now you're the only person with some impression that the form is actually something different now. It's just straight-up redundant to keep the pages separate. And Toriyama doesn't even really have any statements on Broly or Kale, since neither are technically "his" (other than Toriyama providing the design for Broly). If a game comes out with Broly and Kale both appearing and someone references them as having the exact same transformation, are you still gonna refute it? I feel like you would. Because we're just short of that and everything else basically says it's the same dang form.

It's like, yeah she's a reference to Broly, but she is also almost literally Broly in every possible way. Same moves. Same appearance. Same freaking lines. It walks, quacks, and acts like a duck, as they say. And here we have the people who MADE HER, saying "yeah she's walking quacking and acting like a duck, because she's supposed to be a duck. Except she's a girl duck. Our fans love ducks and no one else is really like a duck, so lets add another duck." But here you are going "THAT'S NOT A DUCK. IT'S A GOOSE. A GOOOOOOSE. I REFUSE TO LET ANYONE ELSE CALL HER A DUCK BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE IS." It's pointless to even bring up Toriyama honestly, since he basically had little to no input in Kale's creation. Toei does as they please and if they wanted to make Broly's "LSS" form canon then they did it. Gildeds (talk) 18:39, March 19, 2018 (UTC)

With Broly officially the villain of the new movie and (his form) adapted to the canon timeline, it can TRULY be said now, beyond shadow of a doubt, there's no further refuting it, the two forms were and ARE one and the same. Gildeds (talk) 19:47, July 10, 2018 (UTC)


And y'know, I'm definitely jumping the gun, but if the Saiyan in the trailer today IS Yamoshi like people have been thinking, then I really doubt it's a coincidence the actual Legendary Super Saiyan has a green aura and muscles that seemingly grow on command (to the point they pointed it out right after showing the trailer.) Frankly I'm going to find your arguments a lot funnier in hindsight if come December we see Yamoshi with green hair or something. Gildeds (talk) 02:52, March 21, 2018 (UTC)

Goku's Berserk state in Heroes isn't Legendary Super Saiyan

Goku's berserk, but he's Super Saiyan 2. The only difference is his eyes have gone white. His musculature hasn't changed, nor his hair color, or indeed anything else. Most likely it's due to some demonic influence such as with Turles and Mira, but even if it wasn't it doesn't fit the description of Broly's form at all. I'd argue it should be moved. Gildeds (talk) 19:57, April 20, 2018 (UTC)

Neff already made a page for that form. DragonEmeperor (talk) 20:19, April 20, 2018 (UTC)

This form killing the User

I'm not so sure that this form always kills its user. It might if the user cannot control themselves like Broly. Plus Kale's Super Saiyan 2 form does not seem to have that weakness so it seems logical to conclude that. Also which part of the manga calls it a demon form?--Hulk10 (talk) 23:54, July 19, 2018 (UTC)

Broly does control it after M8, so it won't kill him anyway. FlatZone (talk) 00:17, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

  • I can see your point. But I doubt others will. It seems to me that it would only be risky if you can't control it like Broly initially couldn't in his debut. --Hulk10 (talk) 00:21, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

Also if the form makes your power grow until you are destroyed then why do they master it and use the mastered version for long periods of time?--Hulk10 (talk) 15:51, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

It's simple, it's stated that over-usage of this form will kill you, while it's never stated that this form also will. --Neffyarious (talk) 15:54, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

Kale's Super Saiyan 2 form is a variation of this form.... Therefore it should have the same weakness. It is not stated to have this weakness so there is an inconsistency. Also Broly was not shown to have this weakness. Of course in Broly's case he was created before Kale. This weakness could however theoretically be overcome with training.--Hulk10 (talk) 15:59, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

    • So if either of them trained hard enough they could obtain a similar version for Legendary Super Saiyan form.--Hulk10 (talk) 16:06, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

Well Kale did it so yeah probably. --Neffyarious (talk) 16:12, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

      • That's the logic behind my edit that it depends on controlling the form.--Hulk10 (talk) 16:15, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

No point putting info about it on this form's main section - it's a different form, it's listed under the "Advancement" section. --Neffyarious (talk) 16:21, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

Ah ok. Good idea. --Hulk10 (talk) 16:22, July 20, 2018 (UTC)

One could look at it though as the form killing the user as being something unique to Kale or Universe 6--Hulk10 (talk) 00:13, July 21, 2018 (UTC)

Skin tone

I really don't think we should be putting that the skin becomes paler in color because in his debut, Broly's skin tone remained unchanged. Also what if the user already had pale skin?--Hulk10 (talk) 02:06, July 26, 2018 (UTC)

Good point. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 03:39, October 15, 2018 (UTC)
Thanks also it isn't shown in the manga?--Hulk10 (talk) 03:51, October 15, 2018 (UTC)
Was that a question or a statement? -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 05:29, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
It was a question. --Hulk10 (talk) 05:53, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Kale's LSS used to be labled SS2

Found an old character sheet that labled Kale's LSS form as Super Saiyan 2, funnily enough. Gildeds (talk) 02:19, October 15, 2018 (UTC)

  • Oh nice find. Any idea where that character sheet came from? --Neffyarious (talk) 20:05, October 15, 2018 (UTC)

One of the Daizenshuu's already states "it is a direct successor to the traditional Super Saiyan transformation." making it the legendary, or berserk version of Super Saiyan 2. So in actuality this isn't new information. FlatZone (talk) 12:16, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

and this is the source, they are legit. FlatZone (talk) 12:22, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Wait one second. I checked that source and I saw nothing to support that claim, mind finding something different to support it?--Hulk10 (talk) 19:45, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
If the translation is correct, it is labeling the form Super Saiyan 2. How would that be wrong unless the translation is incorrect?? FlatZone (talk) 20:47, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
Problem is I didn't see the translation--Hulk10 (talk) 20:49, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

You know what, I didn't find it either. In fact, I think the gun was jumped here. We need an actual translation for this image. FlatZone (talk) 20:53, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

That we do. I don't entirely agree with the idea that a Legendary Super Saiyan is a SS2 since that form has a SS2 version of its own but an actual translation would be good.--Hulk10 (talk) 20:58, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Whether we agree with it or not, if it ends up being labeled as Super Saiyan 2 then we have to add that info to the page. One of the Daizenshuu's states that the form is a direct successor to the Super Saiyan form, which is exactly what Super Saiyan 2 is.. a direct successor to the Super Saiyan form. So maybe for a "legendary" Saiyan that is what their Super Saiyan 2 form looks like when it is Berserk, and when Kale controlled it that was the same form but well... controlled which is why it was also labeled as Super Saiyan 2. FlatZone (talk) 21:02, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Its a successor to the Type C Super Saiyan form technically. Also original Broly has SS2 but his resembles his Legendary Super Saiyan form, bulked up and all.--Hulk10 (talk) 21:26, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

In the upper left corner, it says Kale Super Saiyan 2. That being said by the time the character sheets officially came out they just decided to call it Berserk. I wouldn't actually use this as evidence and jump the gun to call LSS Super Saiyan 2 suddenly. At most I'd put it in Trivia. Gildeds (talk) 22:14, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Broly only had LSS2 as an old card, and it was literally the only time ever that there was something called Legendary Super Saiyan 2 and there has not been another card like it sense and it has not shown up in any other media so using that as evidence for anything is just moot. @ Gildeds.. These are the official sheets that they used for the animation of  this form of Kale in the episodes meaning that this is what the form is. Berserker state of SS2 is the bulky form that Kale is using, she then controls it and is no longer berserk, gaining her pupils back and shrinking some, they go on to call her controlled form Super Saiyan 2 in other media afterwards also. So its clear as day that Legendary Super Saiyan is the version of Super Saiyan 2 that "legendary" saiyans get, and it starts out Berserk until they control their berserk tendencies and it gains pupils back and shrinks some. FlatZone (talk) 23:40, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Also I think we should move that LSS2 Broly card info to trivia on all pages concerning it and remove the form his page etc. It is only in 1 card and the Daizenshuu's and other materials directly go against it even being possible.

The Legendary forms go like this...  Super Saiyan(Super Saiyan C-type) to Legendary Super Saiyan to Legendary Super Saiyan 3 to Legendary Super Saiyan 4 in Heroes and all other media. FlatZone (talk) 23:44, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

If its not fanart than its not moot. Or poor evidence. However before I saw that card I too was of the opinion that the Legendary Super Saiyan is a SS2.--Hulk10 (talk) 23:47, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

The problem is the card is conflicting with all other information given including all other media. LSS and Berserk LSS ARE Super Saiyan 2 the same way that Super Saiyan C-type IS Super Saiyan, they are simply different because a "legendary" saiyan is using them. That is the same reason why LSS3 looks the way it does and why LSS4 and Broly God look the way they do too the evolutionary line for a Legendary Saiyans transformations are not the same as a normal Saiyans for the most part as the forms are stronger and they look different. FlatZone (talk) 23:52, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

You make a compelling case. True LSS2 card does conflict, but then a lot of things conflict in this franchise, but you make a compelling case.--Hulk10 (talk) 23:55, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

The card directly conflicts with the main daizenshuu information we are given and it also is the only instance of it. It is at best trivia info. FlatZone (talk) 00:02, October 18, 2018 (UTC)

Well there is a wiki page for it so I'm not so sure its trivia info.--Hulk10 (talk) 00:25, October 18, 2018 (UTC)

The page was made based off of one old card, which was a mistake anyway since it is trivia material at best. I think the page should be deleted honestly. FlatZone (talk) 08:57, October 18, 2018 (UTC) The issue is this character sheet was changed at some point in the future to no longer be called Super Saiyan 2. It may have at one point been called Super Saiyan 2, but by the time the character sheet was released they decided to just call it Berserk Kale, and at this point material is calling LSS just Super Saiyan (Full Power). An old character sheet that was never revealed to the public until you could buy it as sold off material production doesn't need anymore shouldn't be considered as definitive proof that this form is "Super Saiyan 2" in my opinion. Like people have said, there's too much conflicting evidence to say that's the case anyhow. Whether this specific sheet calls it SS2 or not doesn't change the fact they didn't call it that at some during production they changed it. Gildeds (talk) 21:27, October 18, 2018 (UTC)

"It says Sixth Universe Warrior, Kale Super Saiyan 2. " FlatZone (talk) 17:15, October 20, 2018 (UTC)

Sorry but that's not a valid source.--Hulk10 (talk) 20:39, October 20, 2018 (UTC)


Having all of the colors of the form and not indicating which color belongs with which version of the form (considering there are multiple versions of the form across the different continuities) is confusing to newcomers, which is the audience wikias are supposed to be for. —This unsigned comment was made by NervousShipper (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

According to the novel, Broly actually fell out of Full Power before the end of his fight with Gogeta.

According to the following from the novelization of Dragon Ball Super: Broly: 

Gogeta and Broly's fists collided. The sheer pressure of their clash blows away the surroundings and lava
Yellow Hair Broly

Broly reverted back to C-Type

erupts from the ground. Broly could be seen screaming as if crying for help as he had been blown away by the impact. His hair had turned back golden and his facial expression was distorted with pain. 

Broly had reverted to his C-Type Super Saiyan form before the end of his fight with Gogeta. Looking at the scene of Gogeta charging up his Kamehameha with Broly in the background, his hair does appear to be yellow, rather than green. I would include the scenes referring to his pupils returning on that page, as well as adjust any other pages that may be affected by this discrepency. Gildeds (talk) 18:51, January 22, 2019 (UTC)

Does the novelization say anything about the Ikari being part of the Legendary Super Saiyan line?--Hulk10 (talk) 00:09, January 23, 2019 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge, but I might assume that's the case. Gildeds (talk) 02:25, January 23, 2019 (UTC)

I personally doubt that. --Hulk10 (talk) 02:51, January 23, 2019 (UTC)

De-Fusing the pages

The new DBS:Broly movie sports a now canon Broly, and with him a new form called Super Saiyan(Full Power). The pages shouldn't be merged when they have entirely different names. Chrome0X (talk) 02:15, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

Its still the Legendary Super Saiyan even if its under a different name. DragonEmeperor (talk) 03:04, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

There are quite a few differences actually, one being the name, another being this form appears to be the result of Wrath State and Super Saiyan, this makes it a different form and it should receive its own page to show this. Chrome0X (talk) 03:12, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

While how he acheived the form may be different the end result is still the same. And all the characteristics of this form matches the iconic Lssj form. Therefore I am against defusing the pages. It should stay here. 0551E80Y (talk) 06:18, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

It isn't called Legendary Super Saiyan, and there isn't any mention of his form being genetically specific to him, these are a lot of differences to just lop them all together as one. Chrome0X (talk) 06:36, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

Just because it wasn't named in the movie doesn't mean its not the form. It still shows all the iconic trait of making Broly much taller, huge muscles, green hair and white pupils that the Lssj form have. And the only reason this version of Broly along with Kale exists is because of how popular the original Broly was in the Lssj form and what he did with it. They owe their existance to the Legendary Ssj Form. Therefore it should not be defused. 0551E80Y (talk) 06:48, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

I am against defusing the two forms for the same reasons that DragonEmeperor and 0551E80Y are against it. Literally the form in DBZ Movie 8, 10, and 11 and the one in DBS Movie 1 look exactly alike.  Goku20  Talk  ULTRA DBZ  ULTRA POKEMON  07:44,2/16/2019 

I understand that they were made because of how popular he was, that doesn’t mean the forms are the same, Toriyama obviously changed many things about Broly and the form only leaving it looking the same as to not upset the fans.

Kale and non-canon Broly become mentally unstable while Broly:BR became purely enraged, their forms are called Legendary Super Saiyan his is not, his form sports gold irises when in control theirs do not. One form appears to be the result of Warth State and Super Saiyan while the other is the result of being a “Legendary Saiyan”. These are a lot of differences to disregard because it looks the same or it only exists because of the popularity of the previous form. Chrome0X (talk) 08:33, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

Those subtle traits are not enough to differentiate Broly:BR's Lssj form from Kale's or the original Broly's to justify creating a separate article for it. If Broly:BR doesn't have future appearances in the series to help him control the form and advance it further so it can become noticeably different then the Lssj form; The article should stay as it is. --0551E80Y (talk) 10:22, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

I agree they are the same form. But there is one issue, Broly BR stacks Wrath State with LSS making it 10x stronger so it should get a seperate page because of that. SSBlue gets stacked with the Kaioken State and we made a separate page for that too. FlatZone (talk) 15:00, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

Because the Ssj blue kaioken form has noticable traits to justify making a separate article for it due to the fact that it can do things that neither the Ssj blue form nor the kaioken on their own, can. Such as creating a double aura of two opposite colors as well as the aftereffects it did to Goku from his usage of the move against Hit in the Tournament of Destroyers.

There is no source whatsoever that the wrath state has any noticable effect on the lssj form that causes it to be different enough to warrent a seperate article for it. As far as I'm aware of The Lssj form itself for Broly:BR is no different then his counterpart's or Kale's. 0551E80Y (talk) 15:45, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

By the same token there is no source that supports that Wrath State is part of the Legendary Super Saiyan line. --Hulk10 (talk) 16:43, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

If we're not going to separate them, the page itself still needs work. Details and form separations in the page too. Broly BR uses Wrath State with LSS for example. FlatZone (talk) 17:12, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

The differences are far from subtle, and even if they were subtle we have a page for PSSB and there is virtually no difference between it and normal SSB. Chrome0X (talk) 17:49, February 16, 2019 (UTC)

Its been thoroughly explained that the PSSB form has traits that differentiate it from the normal blue such as being fully mastered and has to be controlled as well as showing somewhat of a different aura. Not to mention it could be pushed further.  The wrath state shows absolutely NO difference in Broly BR's legendary ssj form then the original's or Kale's. 0551E80Y (talk) 07:10, February 17, 2019 (UTC)

Except in the new movie SSFP appears to be the result of Wrath State and Super Saiyan, it is massively stronger than what was known for a LSS, it has a state with green aura and gold hair before its full power that has never been displayed before.

Why is it that SSFP is auto logged under LSS when it is never called this by this name in any games, statements or guidebooks. It isn’t even called by the other name SSC-Type, because it IS NOT the same form. Assuming it is “because it looks like it” doesn’t make any sense. Chrome0X (talk) 18:23, February 17, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with 0551Ee80Y. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 04:44, February 18, 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't apply to making the Lssj form different then original version of it. I feel this arguement is at an end here. If there are no viable changes to the Legendary Super Saiyan Form itself in the future. The wrath state and the prior ssj form are seperate issues from this. It should stay the same. 0551E80Y (talk) 06:13, February 18, 2019 (UTC)

You’re complete ignoring all the changes I’ve listed so far, you ignored that one may require the Wrath State in order to be obtained, you ignored that it doesn’t make the user psychotic and the largest difference that the form is officially referred to by a different name by the author of the series, the only reason you assume them to be the same is because they look similar. There isn’t any mention of him being genetically different or a “Legendary Saiyan” either, yet because the two forms look similar you put them on the same page. Chrome0X (talk) 06:45, February 18, 2019 (UTC)

I think the page should remain as-is. Xenoverse 2 refers to DBS Broly as Legendary Super Saiyan in its quests. Gildeds (talk) 22:08, March 8, 2019 (UTC)

To be specific, Parallel Quests 128 and 132 are called "Legendary Super Saiyan Smackdown" and "The Ultimate Legendary Super Saiyan" respectively. The fomer is just a fight against Full Power Broly like in the film, and the latter refers to helping the old Broly fight the new Broly (i.e., a fight between two Legendary Super Saiyans). Given the game refers to Full Power Super Saiyan Broly as Legendary Super Saiyan, (along with old VJump promotions for the movie,) I think the article should remain as is and I'm against defusing the pages. As said before, the two forms are identical anyhow. Gildeds (talk) 22:17, March 8, 2019 (UTC)

  • You clearly seem to be obsessed with claiming original Broly's B-Type as canonical in all sense. Videogames aren't an actual source, even the Xenoverses distorted Toriyama's story for Online, specially Xenoverse 2 when it discarded Buu's wife as part of Majin race's birth. --WIKIMARCO (talk) 21:08, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

Dragon Ball Z Dokkan Battle and Dragon Ball Legends both refer to him as SSFP Broly as well as the actual character model in Xenoverse, the Parallel quests can be called anything. Beyond games being very low in canonicity weight, no other official media has referred to SSFP Broly as a LSS.Chrome0X (talk) 02:01, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

Yes there is, I posted the pics to you already on your page. Super Saiyan Full Power is what Legendary Super Saiyan is. The difference is the fact that Legendary Super Saiyan in the new Broly Movie is stacked with Wrath State giving it a full on green aura, golden eyes once sanity is regained, and a 10x LSS power boost. FlatZone (talk) 03:30, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

Why are we still arguing over this. Its already settled with the whole community, except one person, agreeing not separate the page. DragonEmeperor (talk) 04:02, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

Look, I know the separate page issue is as good as settled. But the problem is there is no seperate section detailing the Wrath State stacked Legendary Super Saiyan form that makes its debut in DBS Broly. He is literally stacking Wrath State with LSS, same way Goku stacks Kaioken with Super Saiyan Blue. So it needs its own section.. also.. holy shit.. imagine Wrath State stacked Broly God.. FlatZone (talk) 04:58, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

The pic posted couldn’t be confirmed as to where it came from, I couldn’t find anything about it when I searched Kanzenshuu. That fact remains that the form in DBS:Broly has an official name of SSFP by Toriyama and has very different traits even possibly being the very result of Super Saiyan and Wrath State. At the very least the three distinct states should be separated to show that there is a difference from writer to writer as to what this green haired Super Saiyan can do can’t do or how it’s obtained. We have Berserker Suepr Saiyan, Super Saiyan(Full Power) and Legendary Super Saiyan, and this page should reflect that. Chrome0X (talk) 06:43, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

You can add the subtile differences to the dbs broly version on this article but it is still no where near enough to justify making the dbs broly lssj form, a seperate article. It needs much more viable differences then these subtle traits to be seperated. 0551E80Y (talk) 08:12, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

The LSS Form's power

we have no proof the form itself is weaker than Super Saiyan God form itself. Because anime Kale is farrrrrrrrr weaker in base form than anime Goku is in his base form. Yet with her LSS form she is able to fight against Super Saiyan Blue Goku at all, and once under full control of the form she can fight against Super Saiyan God Goku despite being on the losing end. The form itself seems to given an astronomical increase in power, because if Goku himself was to use the form, the difference in power would be the same difference in power between base anime kale and base anime Goku, enormous. I think the page should be re-worded to reflect how much power the LLS form brings to the user. FlatZone (talk) 19:04, May 21, 2019 (UTC)

This form isn't the "Legendary Saiyan"

Minor distinction, but I don't think it's appropriate to call this form the "Legendary Saiyan". It's stated Kale herself is the Legendary Saiyan, and nowhere is this form specifically called "Legendary Saiyan". I think it's more appropriate to say that someone who can access this form is a "Legendary Saiyan", while the form itself is "Legendary Super Saiyan". Gildeds (talk) 00:54, February 23, 2020 (UTC)

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