Kale and Califula mixup
This page is for discussing improvements to the article.
Haha, Abridged Cooler reference. Why does Caulifla have like three pages with different names though? This is getting ridiculous. There's Caulifla, then Kale, and now Keru? Which is it? MizukageMoonstone (talk) 18:37, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
Caulifla is a whole different character, is not the same girl. Keru is just a redirect, not a different page.19:18, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
Name of her new form?
Where was its 'berserker' super saiyan name from?
- This is all we have about it. It's a bio extracted from the source code of Toei's website (translated by our dear Herms as always). It mentions her being able to use a "berserker state" of the Super Saiyan form. As far as we know, it's unrelated to LSSJ. — • • 23:02, May 12, 2017 (UTC)
- Despite looking identical?
Look at the discussion on Talk:Caulifla since that was this character's original article before it was renamed to Caulifla.
- The discussion on that page is outdated because it was before Kale's bio blurb was taken from Toei's website. We didn't know anything about the form back then, now all we know is that it's a "berserker state" of SSJ. It's true that it looks identical, but we can't go off of looks alone. — • • 16:29, May 13, 2017 (UTC)
Final the reason I was telling him/her to look at it was for the reason why despite the form on this article and LSS looking a identical we can't use say it is LSS. The reason there still applies here bottom line as much as I hate saying this it is speculation. I agree with you Hadrimon that her Berserker state and LSS are too identical to not be the same.
This article shouldn't have been made since all of this info was originally on Caulifla, that article should have been renamed to this and Caulifla should have been made and the stuff retaining to her should have been taken off of the article. I find doing what was done stupid since Caulifla's article was the original Kale article.
- Does it matter? All of the information about Kale that was on Caulifla's article has been moved to this page anyway. I don't see why this is an issue. — • • 23:08, May 12, 2017 (UTC)
It's an issue because majority of what's on Caulifla's talk page doesn't deal with her it deals with Kale, and the fact that I really see no point in removing old info from an article when the old info was there before the new info and the majority of the new info was very little. See what whoever remove the info dealing with Kale from her original article done was made it's talk page kind of confusing if they look at Kale's original article's edit history, because once they see that any all info dealing with Caulifla was added after a good amount of the discussions on the talk page. Also I was partially stating my opinion, but my issues with this are my issues.
Legendary Super Saiyan
Why is her LSS-like form getting listed as confirmed to be Legendary Super Saiyan? The article in question referenced says it resembles it, nothing more, so until it's actually referred to as Legendary Super Saiyan in the show/other material, I don't think we should list it in the article as such. BubbleRevolution (talk) 15:58, June 1, 2017 (UTC)
You people need to know what puns are
Well, here form has debuted now so it's gotta get a page. Do we put it on the Legendary Super Saiyan page, or create a new page for it? Personally I vote putting it on the Legendary Super Saiyan page, due to: all the Broly references this episode, her design sheet noting she looks like "that legendary Saiyan" and the fact that the form is literally identical in every way to LSS - appearance, power, special traits, personality change etc.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:13, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
Eh, I'd rather give it it's own page, since putting it on the LSSJ page makes it seem like the two are exactly the same, when Kale's form has never been stated to be the same thing as Legendary, even though it's clearly referencing Broly. Unless the form is explicitly mentioned to be "Legendary Super Saiyan", I'd give it it's own page, after all, we have separate pages for all of Broly's alternate versions of forms from various games despite most of them being pretty similar to the original forms. BubbleRevolution (talk) 04:26, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
I disagree as well. It's true that Kale's design (along with her form) is a very obvious reference to Broly, I don't think anyone is arguing that. However, we have no idea what the actual name of her form is, nor do we know how it works. The form definitely needs a page, but I think we should hold off on calling it Legendary Super Saiyan until we get an official answer. — • • 04:57, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
I created the page for the form for now anyway since we really should cover this immediately due to it's significance. I've also decided that I agree that we should leave it to have it's own page for now and not add it to LSS yet, as it has one difference from LSS (which is enough to cast doubt). The page can always easily be moved to LSS later if a source confirms they are the same.--Neffyarious (talk) 13:31, June 4, 2017 (UTC)
After reading about her transformation i cant help picturing her hooking up with broly if the two ever met. heck just having the two meet and fight would be something to watch. but if these to ever mated i think the offspringe would end up being stronger then gohan's full potental unlocked.Guyver92 (talk) 22:35, June 5, 2017 (UTC)
- I got that vibe as well when she first transformed (I personally think that development is deeply stupid for a variety of reasons, but I won't get into that since that will open a new can of worms). Of course, we don't have much to go on. Could be she's just attached to her and has a lot of respect for her without actually having sexual attraction to her. Until we have her getting an Otokosuki or General Blue moment, we can't say for certain what her sexuality is. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:15, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
Kale is Caulifla's sister.
Kale has called Caulifla "sis" dozens of times in the anime. If that doesn't mean they're sisters, then what exactly is that supposed to mean? Unless there's like an article that says they're not, or a line in the anime that someone says that proves they aren't, then I think the evidence leads toward Kale and Caulifla being sisters. TNTDiscoCisco (talk) 17:34, June 25, 2017 (UTC)
- To be fair, it is unclear whether Renso even thought Kale had any fighting potential in her even IF she's Caulifla's sister. And I'm not sure how "sis" can mean something other than... well, a female sibling. I know in Texas, people can refer to other guys as "son" even if they aren't actually blood-related or even have any actual familial relationship, but I don't know of "sis" having any other connotations beyond that. Of course, it could just be the subber doing a quirk with the translation as well. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:57, June 25, 2017 (UTC)
- Imouto-bun 妹分 literally means protégée to someone who is like a sister to you, the kind of relationship that you'd see on a Yakuza female boss in real life. Just like you'd call a friend bro.
18:00, June 25, 2017 (UTC)
Needing of a new section
Kale's trivia section is getting too large, so I though the article is needing a new section just for the similarities/differences/references between her and Broly, in a similar way to sections like this one in Future Trunks's article or this one in Frost's article, for example. What do you guys think? GuKeltke (talk) 01:22, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
Kale is a Legendary Super Saiyan?
The preview for episode 114 has Goku saying that Kale has turned into a "Legendary Super Saiyan". Given the general lack of differences between Kale's forms and Broly's, particularly Berserk and LSS, could this line be basis enough for calling them the same forms? Gildeds (talk) 00:55, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
they aren't the same. first, if she "turns into a Legendary Super Saiyan", it means that monster Berserk WASN'T the "Legendary Warrior" after all, second, some games already named the form with a name of its own totally appart from Broly's "Legendary Warrior", third, the episode 100 preview had some people talking about the "true form of a Saiyan" and in the end it was just Vegeta saying it MAY BE, not affirmativelly stating it is, just theorizing it MAY BE the "True/Original form", so we have to wait, and fourth, they aren't so similar. Broly as the "Legendary Warrior" was totally unstopable unless you defeat him, like if he was in total control of that monstrous power, Kale can't hold her Berserk much long due to both stamina and strain WIKIMARCO (talk) 02:51, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
One, the preview talks about it in the context of Kale controlling her Berserk power. Two, the games aren't always right. They need SOME name, and until the anime says Kale is LSS they can't exactly use that name. Dokkan Battle doesn't even consider Berserk a Super Saiyan form even though it clearly is one and is stated to be one. Three, Vegeta speculating is completely different from Goku outright stating something. Watch the preview. Four, that statement is basically your own opinion, considering Kale didn't stop rampaging until she got knocked out by Jiren and after controlling her power chose to regain stamina, mostly for plot convenience. Kale has the exact same feats and abilities as Broly, and her form looks exactly the same as well. If Goku says Kale is a "Legendary Super Saiyan," then I'm kind of inclined to believe the form is Legendary Super Saiyan. Gildeds (talk) 04:27, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
first, the scenes of a Preview aren't always at the same context as what it's said on that Preview, like Goku talking about not underestimate mortals or about sealing Zamas for the Preview of Gattai Zamas' debut, dialogues that are about Future Trunks trying to seal Future Zamas, second, the games are supposed to be based on something so they're a point to consider, third, i'll explain that one better: the Preview for episode 100 puts Goku asking for what "the true form of a Saiyan" can do like if he was stating the Berserk is "the true form", similar to what he says about Kale turning into "a Legendary Super Saiyan", but in the end it was just a mere it MAY BE, and fourth, even after obtaining the "Green" she was unable to handle the power of the Berserk without fainting from fatigue. actually, unless you obtain an image of Kale Berserk with all that muscle (cause the "Green" has less muscle) and yellow hair (like Broly Legendary Super Saiyan at his pinnacle of the "Legendary Warrior" phase 1), you have nothing WIKIMARCO (talk) 05:03, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
For the first point, I don't think it's fair to compare Goku commenting on a Saiyan's (relatively unclear in terms of name in the anime) form to saying something about mortals or sealing Zamasu. I don't get why you're making that comparison. Secondly, the games are point to consider but they never supercede things that are said or happen in-series. Third, again, there's a difference between a character saying "MAY BE" and later saying "she IS." Lastly, what the heck do you mean? Kale's Berserk form is absolutely MASSIVE and towers over Goku to the same extent Broly does. If her muscles aren't as big, and I'd say if they aren't then they're pretty dang close, then that still makes sense because Kale is a girl, who also happens to look like a twig in base. If anything I'd say Kale grew more muscle than the already muscular Broly when accessing their LSS forms. And while Broly has been shown with yellow hair as an LSS in Second Coming and the end of his first movie, he's portrayed far more with green hair and more recognizable that way, which is likely the reason why Kale's form keeps that trait. Gildeds (talk) 18:48, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
first, you didn't understood, what i was saying is that dialogues from Previews aren't at the same context as the scenes from the Previews, as i said, Goku claiming about not underestimate mortals and sealing Zamas was because of Trunks sealing future Zamas, similar to Goku's claims about "the True form" being because of Vegeta saying it MAY BE "the True form, second, the games are supposed to be managed based from the main media, and they can't do something unless the main media makes sure they can, like releasing Vegetto Xeno and Gogeta Xeno, who are superior to any other version of Vegetto or Gogeta, Vegetto Xeno wasn't released until Vegetto Blue was, and Gogeta Xeno was released without any Gogeta Blue cause there's no plan for a Gogeta Blue, so the "Berserk" names are supposed to be official and absolute, otherwise they could have waited a bit longer to release her. and i know they aren't supposed to be exactly the same because of gender differences, but if out of Kale being slightly less muscular than Broly they aren't the same is because of something. Broly has in most of his evolved forms green hair not just because he's most recognizable that way but also because there's no Full Power-based change for phases 2 or 3 like with phase 1 who turns a bit more white (like Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan turning from green to yellow at its pinnacle). WIKIMARCO (talk) 19:59, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
Those correlations with games releasing stuff like Vegito Xeno after Vegito Blue are speculation, Vegito Xeno and Gogeta Xeno were simply added to Heroes because more unique cards = more money. Why did they not wait longer to release Kale, because having the most up to date stuff means more people will buy it. In the episode summary Goku says "is this the true form?" while here he says "is a true legendary Super Saiyan", one is a guess, the other is a statement. "Berserk names are official and absolute" no, the games have only called it "Out of Control" so far and have not even called it a Super Saiyan.--Neffyarious (talk) 20:09, October 29, 2017 (UTC)
Also it should be noted that in the latest episode, while Kale is powering up, her hair turns a similar shade of yellow as her regular Super Saiyan form (if I saw that correctly), which could correlate with Broly's LSS turning yellow when he powers up in his movies. Gildeds (talk) 00:31, November 5, 2017 (UTC)
One interesting thing to note is that the correlation between Berserk Kale and LSSJ Kale seems rather similar to Trunk's bulked up USSJ form, and SS2. USSJ and Berserk are massive While Kale is reasonably fast, she seems a lot stronger than fast. Then when she goes LSSJ she's moving so fast SS2 Goku can't keep up so he goes SSG. She just wasn't that fast in Berserk.--Marhawkman (talk) 00:08, November 7, 2017 (UTC)
So... APPARENTLY, Kale's "controlled energy" form is Super Saiyan 2?
According to the latest Dokkan Battle datamine, Kale's "controlled energy" form (the yellowish one, not the green one it seems) is Super Saiyan 2? Makes no sense to me. But whatever. Gildeds (talk) 03:40, March 15, 2018 (UTC)
But then when you actually use the card in Dokkan, it's Kale's "True Legendary Super Saiyan" form? I feel like someone mixed something up. It's looking like Kale's "True Legendary Super Saiyan" could also be considered her SS2, and maybe the yellow form before it just Super Saiyan? Gildeds (talk) 04:00, March 15, 2018 (UTC)
The art's from a scene before Kale goes Berserk and controls it (https://i.redd.it/u7w2me1cful01.png to be exact) but the in-game sprites and ultimate come from after she goes "TLSS", which also happens to be the only other time I see her have sparks. For now I'm going to chalk it up as another of Dokkan Battle's weird or uncaring inconsistencies and assume the card is meant to represent True Legendary Super Saiyan, and not Super Saiyan (perfect energy control), since the former being considered SS2 makes more sense in my opinion than the latter. Gildeds (talk) 05:25, March 15, 2018 (UTC)
The confusion is mostly caused by the slight yellowish tone in Kale's hair in the Dokkan game card. But other than that the art looks the exact same as the transformation seen in episode 114 rather than the more slender one from 101. Also, we only saw Kale's aura having sparks during the 2 on 1 fight against Goky in 114.
And why are we considering the yellow and green hair forms as the same transformation? The first one is weaker than her Berserk form (she even has to go full berserk to power up) while the second one clearly surpasses it in terms of power. Her "TLSS" forms sounds more like the next lever (SSJ 2) to both her supressed and berserk SSJ. (Adictoalatrama (talk) 16:56, March 18, 2018 (UTC))
I think it makes more sense to say Kale went Super Saiyan (Type C) in the latest chapter first
While her eyes are white, her musuculature starts out normal like that of a regular Super Saiyan, then as she powers up during the fight she looks like the muscular Super Saiyan form she has in the anime, and then at the END of the chapter she's muscular as though she went Legendary Super Saiyan, and is implied to have gained strength to match an additional transformation. I think it makes more sense to say she wasn't Legendary Super Saiyan until then. Gildeds (talk) 07:22, June 22, 2018 (UTC)
- Aside from muscle mass, there's no difference between Kale's initial and buff stages in the manga, Goku simply refers to the added muscle as her powering up - not as her further transforming.--Neffyarious (talk) 09:54, June 22, 2018 (UTC)
- But the title of the chapter is "Awaken, Super Saiyan Kale". And what do you define as "no difference"? Even if you're referring to some kind of power or actions, after Kale buffs up the chapter ends before we see anything else. Her becoming muscular/bigger (and stated to have become more powerful) IS a difference. As much as one as those between 1st/2nd/3rd grade Super Saiyan. The lack of eyes can be explained away as her being in a Berserker mentality that's somewhat reminiscent to when Goku goes berserk in heroes, or similar to when Broly's eyes disappeared from his Super Saiyan form immediately before he actually went Legendary, while the power disparity can simply be chalked to anime/manga differences in power scaling (and again, she becomes stronger after becoming more muscular). I feel like the evidence points towards her first having become a Super Saiyan, and then. Gildeds (talk) 09:48, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
- Merely being referred to as Super Saiyan in the title chapter don't matter, cuz the anime as well only ever referred to it as Super Saiyan. Characters have displayed the ability to bulk up via power up in the past without transforming. As I said Goku refers to it as power up not transform, the shading on her hair does not change so the hair color does not alter pre and post buffing, C-type is not a berserk form etc.--Neffyarious (talk) 10:01, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
You sure? Toyotaro's art for the Broly movie seems to show Type-C and it seems to match his interpretation of Kale at the start of her transformation, only you can see it has yellow hair too. Gildeds (talk) 10:24, July 16, 2018 (UTC)
You SURE though? I mean looking at the pics this makes a lot of sense to me, and according to Broly's production art for the movie, his hair doesn't really change much between C-Type and LSS compared to the first 2 Broly films. Not to mention that Yellow-Eyed Broly can fight against SSB before he turns Super Saiyan, which would explain C-Type Kale fighting good against Frieza. Even if the color change isn't noted in the manga, SSB only does so because it's hard to distinguish the visual change in a black and white manga. The two forms just line up together way too well when you look at all the stuff that's come out recently. Especially since it seems like there's a possibility the movie might be following the manga continuity. Gildeds (talk) 11:01, July 23, 2018 (UTC)
I get where your coming from, but it's speculation. There is no reference in the manga to her transforming, simply her form constantly powering up (seemingly resulting in the increase in muscle mass). We won't know for certain until Broly appears in the manga (if his hair color does not change between forms then that may suffice as evidence). --Neffyarious (talk) 17:35, July 23, 2018 (UTC)
Alright. I still maintain the opinion that putting the skinnier version on C-Type til then is the safe choice, but I understand waiting 'til the manga version of Broly comes out. Gildeds (talk) 19:50, July 23, 2018 (UTC)
There's now also confirmation that Broly (in particular, compared to the form changing of others in the movie) transforms "gradually". (link to tweet, note that we see Broly a little buffer than the Type-C art but with his armor on and yellow hair at the end of the trailer) again, it feels like more and more confirmation that his transformations and Kale's in the manga are reflections of eachother, and it's feeling like it makes a lot more sense to list Kale's "skinny" Super Saiyan form in the manga as Type-C (even as it gradually increases in muscle mass), and say it turns into LSS at the end of the chapter. I would like permission to change it as such for the sake of accuracy. Gildeds (talk) 02:43, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
Since in U6 the Legendary Super Saiyan form is known as "Legendary Saiyan", should we title Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan section "Legendary Saiyan"? --Neffyarious (talk) 17:16, October 26, 2018 (UTC)
Maybe. I didn't see it as the name of her form though, I just viewed it as a statement of what Kale is in general. The Legendary Saiyan is a unique Saiyan born every 1,000 years with power that can (based on Broly and Kale) surpass that of a Super Saiyan even before transforming, and they have access to the unique transformation currently being called Super Saiyan (Full Power) or Legendary Super Saiyan. Depending on if this gets expanded and explained on later in the movie/manga I feel like it might become its own page. Gildeds (talk) 20:55, October 26, 2018 (UTC)