This article is entirely unreferenced. How do we know Vegeta achieved the Beyond God form just through training after his Furious Mutation? Is there anything that confirms it at all? Because as things are now, it looks as if the editor could have pulled all of this entirely out of his ass. Xfing (talk) 21:53, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. We actually do not know anything in regards to Vegeta, we just know that he has the state obviously because he needs the Super Saiyan God form/power in order to obtain Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and for consequence, the in-between state... Saiyan beyond God. How and when he got it we will probably see in Dragon Ball Super.
"Furious Mutation" (which should not even exist, that was just a title of the episode, it does not have anything to do with his Super Saiyan 2 embedded with angry) also does not have anything to do with Saiyan beyond God. Bargeta (talk) 23:21, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
Not God ki
- Although the Saiyans' power level in this state is likely the same as Super Saiyan God, the ki of this state is not god ki as it is shown in Dragon Ball Super, Goku's ki can still be felt by the Z-fighters in this state.
I personally don't think this version has the same level of standard SSJGod. For different reasons:
- Because otherwise the boost of SSJBlue would be much bigger, instead Goku and Vegeta consider themselves weaker than Beerus even if they have access to this form. I think about it more like an upgraded version of the God mode unified with their ability to turn SSJ. Same as Goku was able to use his god powers by remaining in SSJ form during BoG they now have mastered this. With an actual SSJ boost on God form they would be much stronger than anyone else, instead I think that if the red one was 60% of Beerus, the Blue SSJGod mode is around 80-90% of him.
- It also makes more sense compared to Frieza. It's crazy that he has already God level power without even going golden. So I would put the new base form of Goku and Vegeta at a level much higher than GokuSJJ3 at the time of his meeting with Beerus but still far from God level power. If I had to guess, since Beerus said in Super he had to use 10% of his power to easily beat that angered version of Vegeta even superior to SSJ3, I would put the new base forms around 5-10% of Beerus.
All the 10% / 90% estimations are just fan made so don't focus on them too much, my point is simply that the new base forms are far from God level and this would explain why SSJBlue doesn't put them at a level above everyone else.
Part 2: I saw the changes to the page and I'm willing to elaborate more since I don't agree.
Goku, when he turns SSJBlue in the movie, tells us that it is his way "to tap into SSJGod power on his own" meaning that he was not using that power until that point, as it has been confirmed by episode 24 of DBSuper. This means to me that he was not even close to God level before turning SSJBlue as I explained before, the reason is that otherwise the SSJB boost would be ridiculously low... I mean he was 60% the power of Beerus during their first match, then it's safe to assume he grew a lot in the one year training, plus there is a transformation, but after all this both him and Vegeta still consider themselves weaker than Beerus! In an interview Toryiama said that in a scale where Beerus is 10, Goku at the time of BoG would be 6 and Whis 15... now what kind of power up is the one that brings a 6 (maybe 7 or more considering the training) into a 8-9? Pretty lame considering how big the power boost of regular SSJ was.
Same goes for Frieza. Putting aside that it's unlogical enough that he is at god level without even using the golden form, if that was true it would be a pretty shitty power up since he considers himself weaker than Beerus too in his final form. With all his ego he still considers himself weaker than the God of Destruction! I'm believing him.
The article states that this form "[...] is the mastery of the retained god power that was obtained when Goku dropped out of his Super Saiyan God form during his battle with Beerus.", but I personally think this is a more precise definition of the Blue form, henceforth explaining why it doesn't bring him above everyone else. Think about it as base Goku and 3rd form Frieza fighting at a level much superior to SSJ3 and their transformations gives them a considerable boost that puts them on god level close to Beerus. I f you don't accept this do you realize how weak the transformation would be? From a starting point of at least 70% Beerus they would turn and they don't even surpass him... it's dumb.
Coming back on Goku's quote let's not forget SSJB is also the only way to access God power without using the ritual, in fact during the training we never see Goku or Vegeta access once the red God form. To me this is another point for the theory that the Sayan Beyond God is not really a form but more likely a sort of "mystic" Goku and Vegeta. Where they do not need to tranform anymore to access their full potential with the exception of God form, in particular the blue one that represent their mastery on the transformation plus the SSJ ability.
Maybe I'm going too far, but the parallelism with "mystic" or "ultimate" power is a good explanation to why their new base form is so strong. You can read the quote from Whis of training without turning SSJ as the starting point which led them to their new base form. I mean... even in BoG movie Beerus tells him that if he masters his power tranformations are needed no more if I recall correctly.
You can leave the article as it is and blame the illogicity on Toei, Tory, Taro etc. but the illogicity of the useless power up remains and I think it can be easily explained the way I presented it: Still an incredibly strong form but not on God level and with the Blue form being an upgraded version of the red one which let's them turn without the ritual. Not so crazy if you think about it.
- First off, about Beerus using 70% of his power, if you look on his page, in the movie Beerus says he used nearly 70% of his power. That's not the same as using 70% of his power. If I think, it's not official or it's not correct. I don't listen to what fans have to say about power because they're mostly or all wrong. I focus on what the characters say themselves when they're speaking about their power.
On Goku and Vegeta, they are not gods themselves. Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super turns them into a god, putting them on god status. But Goku and Vegeta have the power of a god which makes their base more powerful. They're able to use that power, that's why Goku could continue to fight Beerus in his base. To be a Super Saiyan God Super, you must obtain the power of a god and train. Vegeta did not achieve Super Saiyan God but he did through training with Whis. You're right, Saiyan beyond God is not a form but it's not "mystic". It's their base form, a newly transformed base form. Beerus never said, "if he masters his power tranformations are needed no more".
This is not hard to grasp. Fans are thinking way into this. People still think Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan God to reach Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan however that's not the case. Meshack (talk) 19:41, December 28, 2015 (UTC)
- I appreciate your answer.
- I don't get your point on "nearly 70%" what does it changes? It means that Goku was able to match that power during BoG. Anyway I went with 60% because some sub says that and I think it's the correct one considering the interview to Toriyama where he says if Beerus is a 10, Goku SSJG is a 6.
I know that Vegeta didn't pass by the red form, because in fact the SSJBlue is not a transformation after the red one, but it's actually pretty much the very same thing; just improved and that does not need the ritual. As you said it brings the base sayan to a god level, but that's also why I don't think the so called "Sayan Beyond God" is comparable in power to Goku SSJG, because it would render the the god transformation a pretty lame power up.
Of course as you say ("mystic" or not) their base form has been elevated to new heights by the "touch", we could say, of the god-like power. But this must ont be overestimated... there are not enough data on this I get it, but follow me: I'd say they are on a level much above SSJ3 comparable to a few percentage points of Beerus (he is the new unit of measurements ahah power levels are out) and this would give the right value to a god transformation that brings them to almost the level of Beerus.
But let's say you insist it's not so crazy to give Goku and Vegeta all that power in their base form; there is still the case of Frieza where there is not defending it, it just makes no sense! He is a match for new base form Goku in his third form, according to the wiki this would put him already at a God level, more precisely even above Goku in BoG. In this case the Golden form would be pretty lame because from a very high starting point it does bring him not even at Beerus' level! Which mean it doesn't even power him up by 30%... Do you get my point? What kind of transformation is one that does not do his job? That should be his God mode, but 3rd form Frieza would already be overpowered eith a weak transformation according to this wiki. I'n my opinion if we consider both the base forms (of the sayans and Frieza) weaker than how is it written now, it would not go against anything canon and it would make more sense under a logical point of view. Everything I wrote respects the source material I think.
Btw you were right on Beerus quote, I was making confusion with this quote from the man Tory himself: "Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.". Which is also a point I defended for years when I was trying to explain, to people misguided by the english dub, why Ultimate Gohan was unable or did not need to transform. A point many still don't get and they think he was holding back when he let Buutenks fuck him up -.-' So I know what you mean when you say fans do not know what they are talking about. Elven91 (talk) 22:57, December 28, 2015 (UTC)
the scale of Super Saiyan God Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15, we don't know what changes that scale. Just because Goku reaches a new form, we don't know if he a 6.1, 7, or what Meshack (talk) 01:12, December 29, 2015 (UTC)
- Actually yes, we know that in the new form he is above 6 but still less than Beerus. That's what manga and anime tells us and it's enough. Anyway what about all the rest I wrote? I'm not arguing of how strong he his now in SSJB, but how much he retains of the god power in the new base form. Elven91 (talk) 12:33, December 29, 2015 (UTC)
Chou Super Saiyan
Where is the information for Chou Super Saiyan coming from? The only thing that has been said about it Vegeta is a Super Super Saiyan. It doesn't say anything about Saiyan beyond God or anything else. Meshack (talk) 00:03, April 4, 2016 (UTC)
Saiyan beyond God
The Saiyan beyond God form's details come from DBH, where it is only used by Goku; Vegeta does not have it in any way. There is also no implication that Vegeta obtained the form - for example in the Res F manga neither Goku nor Vegeta can even get near Whis, then Goku uses the SbG power (an image of SSG appears behind him) and he almost hits Whis. Saiyan beyond God is not a new base form for Goku and Vegeta, it is a special state that only Goku has been shown using. Additionally, a user of SbG transforms straight into SSGSS (as shown in all of it's appearances) and won't go SS beforehand. If we add the likes of Vegeta to users of this state without any sort of source, then we might as well add Future Trunks since he's as strong as regular base Goku and Vegeta too. That is the reason for the page's change.--Neffyarious (talk) 14:46, June 27, 2016 (UTC)
It's not a form, it's a state. Which means Vegeta has this state too. The anime has been inconsistent with portraying both it and Super Saiyan blue, though - which led to dividing the fandom and the emergence of the so-called "two bases theory". Out of universe-wise, it would seem that the writers insist on reintroducing the old forms for nostalgia's sake, but the initial intention of Toriyama's seems to quite obviously be that once you've got God power in your base form, you can only go SSj Blue with it. For example in the Potafeu saga (considered filler by some), Vegeta in his base form is stronger than SSj3 Gotenks, and he only goes SSj Blue on top of it, Goku likewise - this directly mirrors the Resurrection F arc. However, in subsequent arcs the previous forms are reintroduced again, not to mention what's happening in the manga with the reintroduction of SSj God. So what it looks like, is:
RoF, Potafeu: SbG -> SSj Blue
The rest: Base -> SSj -> SSj2 -> SSj3 -> SSj Blue
Possibly the best looking form ever?
This form is just awesome. Goku and Vegeta in base form with ready for battle look are just the best form you could imagine, looks way better than every SSJ to me. What do you think? Btw Gokus Hair looks best in base!
Saiyan beyond God stacked with transformations
A question came up in my head, rather food for thought about the fact if a Saiyan, or Goku and Vegeta in this case, utilize Saiyan beyond God, are they able to change into the orindary Super Saiyan transformations they possess on top of it to add more power? Or is this incorrect, and it would just lead to Super Saiyan Blue?
If anything, I don't think it should, as far as I know Saiyan beyond God is possessing the power of Super Saiyan God (and yes, I'm aware there are many misconceptions about this, but I'm just talkin' about the basics on the power of the state) in your base form without any changes, but without the regeneration thing, godly ki, ki sense and some other things. Utilizing godly ki on top of an ordinary Saiyan transformation would actually give you Super Saiyan Blue, right?
- A pamphlet for Resurrection F stated that if a Saiyan beyond God attempts to transform into a Super Saiyan they become Super Saiyan Blue, so a Saiyan in the Saiyan beyond God form cannot transform into any of the regular gold-haired Super Saiyan forms. Also Saiyan beyond God does possess godly ki in the manga/movie (but not in the anime).--Neffyarious (talk) 07:18, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
- To add on what Neffy said, in the anime--at least for Goku's case--also posses-god's crimson radiance, a sensation/power trait unique to Suepr Saiyan God, whenever he transforms into Super Saiyan, ssj 2, or ssj 3. In the Super Saiyan page, they called this "god-enhanced Super Saiyan". This differs from Super Saiyan Blue because it only retains the power of Super Saiyan God and not the godly ki, which was the reason why Goku was able to keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods. To sum up, when Goku uses regular Super Saiyan on top of Saiyan beyond God, it is only the ordinary form with an ordinary power up because Saiyan beyond God doesn't posess god ki in the anime. The only time they ever transform into Suepr Saiyan Blue being whenever they add god ki into the Super Saiyan transformation, as sometimes as seen in the anime they do leak out a little Saiyan beyond God ki that changes into God ki.
Okay, thanks for the clarification you two. Although, I would like to know why Gohan's Super Saiyan form states the following: "Gohan mastered the Super Saiyan to such an extent that his power in this state matched Goku's power as a Super Saiyan above Saiyan beyond God." Not sure if I just read this wrong, can anyone clarify this one? <bold>Gojiran the extroverted infomaniac</bold> (talk) 19:07, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
Why not God Ki?
A lot of people here are trying really roundabout ways to explain this form while both acknowledging the training in Whis' staff but still trying to say that Goku and Vegeta don't have God Ki in this form?
In the anime when they learn to hold in their Ki and raise it to a point they straight up say that that is God Ki. They are in base form using God Ki, that's what this form is. That's why they go straight to Blue when going SSJ because they are using full God Ki power in base form. That's all God Ki is is raised, held in Ki and that's all they were doing when they showed up in the RoF saga. The anime was specifically the place where they explained God Ki and what exactly Goku and Vegeta were doing to use this base 'beyond God' state, why are we saying they didn't have it specifically in the anime when that was clearly not the case?
And what is all this arbitrary nonsense about having the power of God Ki without having God Ki? Someone is trying to make this more complicated than it is Koibito888 (talk) 08:51, August 22, 2019 (UTC)