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(Canonicity involving Super Saiyan)
(Canonicity involving Super Saiyan)
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Are you serious? That makes absolutely zero sense! I pointed out on your talk page the MYRIAD examples of speculation all over the wiki, which you defended as being justified by them being perfectly reasonable possibilities within the Dragon Ball universe, offering possible explanations to help readers/viewers understand how something that seems to break the timeline actually can make perfect sense. Here I have done the EXACT SAME THING those other examples of speculation did, and yet you claim mine unjust. Hell, all of those other things are simply based on guesses and theories all the same as mine here are, and they could all be true or not be true for other reasons, and yet ''my example here actually uses an exact line of dialogue to back it up'', which NONE of those other examples do. I won't sample the large number of examples of this exact same thing here since I already did just that on your talk page, but what I am trying to accomplish here on this wiki page is NO DIFFERENT from any of all of those other examples, and in fact should be even MORE justified ''since it samples Goku's exact dialogue as proof''. So I ask you in sincere bafflement: WTF DUDE. It is maddening to sit here watching you justify other examples of this exact same kind of thinking while rejecting my own, especially when mine has more evidence backing it up than most other speculation that you justified all over the wiki. Your reasoning is totally inconsistent and I am calling serious b.s. here. [[User:EBsessed|EBsessed]] ([[User talk:EBsessed|talk]]) 19:06, December 31, 2014 (UTC)
 
Are you serious? That makes absolutely zero sense! I pointed out on your talk page the MYRIAD examples of speculation all over the wiki, which you defended as being justified by them being perfectly reasonable possibilities within the Dragon Ball universe, offering possible explanations to help readers/viewers understand how something that seems to break the timeline actually can make perfect sense. Here I have done the EXACT SAME THING those other examples of speculation did, and yet you claim mine unjust. Hell, all of those other things are simply based on guesses and theories all the same as mine here are, and they could all be true or not be true for other reasons, and yet ''my example here actually uses an exact line of dialogue to back it up'', which NONE of those other examples do. I won't sample the large number of examples of this exact same thing here since I already did just that on your talk page, but what I am trying to accomplish here on this wiki page is NO DIFFERENT from any of all of those other examples, and in fact should be even MORE justified ''since it samples Goku's exact dialogue as proof''. So I ask you in sincere bafflement: WTF DUDE. It is maddening to sit here watching you justify other examples of this exact same kind of thinking while rejecting my own, especially when mine has more evidence backing it up than most other speculation that you justified all over the wiki. Your reasoning is totally inconsistent and I am calling serious b.s. here. [[User:EBsessed|EBsessed]] ([[User talk:EBsessed|talk]]) 19:06, December 31, 2014 (UTC)
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It looks like I am late to this debate, but I thought I might offer my two cents. While it's preferable that articles have zero speculation, there is some merit in including low level speculation to offer just a possible explanation for inconsistencies. The difference I see in this situation from other types of speculation such as the explanation for Gohan's tail on the Cooler's Revenge page is that this particular speculation seeks to determine the reasoning behing a characters actions/a character's thought process, rather than why a certain event occurred. It's easy to use basic logic to explain an event but trying to figure out what Goku was thinking is a bit more speculative. I do realize that you've found certain articles that attempt to fathom the same type of thing, but that doesn't make those articles any less speculative, and I would advise you to go to the talk pages of those articles too.
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On the other hand, you are correct about Goku holding back a lot, and presumably about Goku stating that it's hard to focus his energy (I can't remember it too well, as I haven't seen it in a while) which are two very likely reasons for Goku not to have gone Super Saiyan. I admit that they are both pretty consistent with the presented evidence in the show, and Goku himself said that he couldn't focus his energy, which is kind of a prerequisite for Super Saiyan. It's ultimately up to the community and our policies but I'm not overly against this edit; but the policy that the community decided on does state that we should try to avoid speculation, especially of this type. I'm also basically just taking your word for it on the cold thing; I'll have to rewatch the movie and see.
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Sorry for the very "fence-sitter" opinion.
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{{User:Shakuran13/sig7}} 20:12, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:12, December 31, 2014

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dragon Ball Z: The World's Strongest article.
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The section regarding the film being non-canon needs to be re-written.

While it's pretty obvious whether some movies can be canon or non-canon, others have enough debate that the secion should probably be changed to "Canonicity." After all, seeing Dead Zone or Wrath of the Dragon as "Non-Canon" because of easily-debated issues probably isn't that good in the long run. Ridureyu 00:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)Ridureyu

I rewrote the section to clarify its reasoning and give it a more neutral perspective. That any better? -- Nonoitall talk contr 01:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It looks good. I honestly think that the only place the movie can fit is when they are training for the androids... provided that Goku forgot how to turn Super Saiyan, or something. Well, at least it's not as tough as Movie 12. Ridureyu 01:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)Ridureyu

"But the movie can't take place after the Freeza Saga because Goku isn't able to transform into a Super Saiyan, and still uses the Flying Nimbus as his main means of travel. Therefore, this movie cannot be placed correctly in the anime continuity. " What does "still using the flying nimbus" have anything to do with this not taking place after frieza. I honestly think these are stupid excuses to contradict this movie being considered canon. Also nothing in this movie says he can't turn super saiyan what if he was just surpressing it the whole time or trying not to rely on it. - User:Slayer25769

Reworded for clarity. You know, of course, that the movie was not made thinking of the series timeline, right? Nobody will create excuses to contradict it being considered canon. The most one can do is to try and make it fit somewhere (even if the movie wasn't creted thinking it would fit somewhere), and point out the inconsistencies. --Sega381 19:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I recall Bulma mentioning the "New Millennium", which seems to suggest DBZ takes place in the future. -Turtle Soup 06:27, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Roshi Flying

JG, why did you undo my edit, could you also give more summaries so i understand your point? Nappa01True SaiyanEOB 01WarriorsRaditz1 12:58, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

He jumps, he does not fly, like he does during the 21st tournament. Jeangabin666 21:01, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Continuity

Each movie is supposed to be analogous to different parts of the series, and sometimes they can be considered canon. This film, however, does not fit into continuity very well, I think. Everyone is alive, as if the Saiyans had never arrived or never killed anyone, Gohan is in his Piccolo-esque attire and has longish hair, Goku is still using Nimbus and Power Pole, and nobody goes Super Saiyan. To place this movie in the time between the Frieza and Cell Sagas is highly unlikely in my opinion. I think it's simply non-canon and exists in its own continuity along with Tree of Might and Lord Slug.Pizzaguylol 17:43, May 23, 2012 (UTC)—This unsigned comment was made by Pizzaguylol (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

It can fit in the main continuity, read the Continuity section. Alternate timline/universe theory can't be placed into a continuity section. You can use this theory for everything, every minor inconsistencies, and even places sagas and series you don't like into alternate universe (like a few fan do with GT).
The movie doesn't countain inconstistencies which would justify a placement in an alternate universe. Goku using the Nimbus and Power Pole, or not going Super Saiyan doesn't break the continuity. Watch Super Android 13!, Goku doesn't go Super Saiyan until past half of the movie. And in Cooler's Revenges he transforms into the form not until the very end. He uses the form only when really needed. In GT, he fought several time using his base form, even against villains that seemed much stronger than him. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 11:00, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Canonicity involving Super Saiyan

I edited this article earlier today to explain the possible reasons why Goku doesn't use the Super Saiyan form in this film despite officially being placed in the timeline during training in preparation for the androids, and it was removed by another user, "Sandubadear," who listed his reason as "speculation; goku can't super saiyan at this point in time."

First of all, speculation is present on nearly every film's page in the Trivia section, and some even in the Timeline Placement sections, so as long as it's sound speculation, it should not be a problem. Secondly, according to the film's official timeline placement, Goku can very well indeed go Super Saiyan at this point in time. And as the film has been placed in the official timeline (along with all the other films), it can very easily be considered canonical if you take the speculation I provided in my edit into account, as nothing in the film contradicts anything else in the timeline. My edit was fair and just, and I motion that it be made permanent. EBsessed (talk) 06:16, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

Tbh, it's kinda ridiculous. Really? Goku can use Super Saiyan but chooses not to out of training? Because it's 'too cold'? despite him using it in movie 7 in the artic, 'the form is still new to him'? despite him saying he could do it at will in the Yardrat Saga?? For *bleeps* sake this movie came out before the Android arc was even invented!! That whole summary of this taking place during the three year training gap makes no sense, as Gohan looks too young, Goku could multiply his kaio-ken far past a 4x by that point. 

In fact, the beam struggle with a 4x kaio-ken is a homage to the actual canon beam struggle between Goku and Vegeta. We need to check the Daizenshuu, I'll let you know if I find it. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 06:24, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's not ridiculous at all. Goku has imposed plenty of personal restrictions on himself for training purposes throughout the history of Dragon Ball and DBZ. And since the transformation was still new to him at this point in time, it's entirely possible that his inability to focus his energy due to the cold (as he specifically states in the film) could be what causes him to not be able to go Super Saiyan. Super Android 13 takes place FAR later in the timeline, so comparing this film to that one is ridiculous, as Goku has much more practice with the transformation by that time. He could do it at will in the Trunks saga (no such thing as a Yardrat saga) because there weren't any unusual conditions affecting his energy control, as the cold does in this movie which he, again, specifically says is making it exceptionally difficult for him to focus his energy. Gohan doesn't look too young at all if you ask me, so that's baseless opinion. He looks the same as he does before episode 125, as episode 125 seems to take place near the end of the time skip since he looks taller and more developed, while this movie is meant to take place earlier in the time skip. And just because Goku could go further than a x4 Kaioken at this point doesn't mean he needed to for any reason. Popo taught him not to unnecessarily waste energy and to fight efficiently, so if a x4 was enough, he had no reason to go further. Look above at the last comment in the "Continuity" discussion on this page for further reasoning from another user why this film doesn't contradict the canon, including Goku not going Super Saiyan here. EBsessed (talk) 06:34, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, who keeps editing this page?? Every time I type up a paragraph reply it somehow doesn't send through because someone else edits and I have to retype it, I give up. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 06:42, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

"Canonocity" is not something that is discussed on this article. What we do mention is timeline placement, so viewers have an idea of what event have occurred, and what events haven't yet. As for Super Saiyan, yes it's peculiar that he doesn't use the form, and yes we can speculate theories as to why he wouldn't use it for fun. However, speculation is generally not allowed in articles; instead, we let the users make up their own minds. I tend to think that making excuses for Goku based on our own guesses and theories is not very encyclopedic, and as such adds no value for the readers in this case. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:28, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

I am not "making excuses for Goku based on [my] own guesses and theories," Goku himself states that he is unable to focus his energy due to the cold. Due to the form being new to him at this time, as well as the fact that the only time he's transformed as far as we are aware aside from his initial transformation on Namek is during the Trunks saga, wherein weather conditions were fair. He has not tried to transform during harsh weather conditions by this point in time, and as such, it is entirely reasonable to take Goku's line about the cold as a just reason for him not to be able to go Super Saiyan. As far as my suggestion about his choice not to use the form goes, although it is not supported by any dialogue as the "cold weather" reason goes, from what we know about Goku and his willingness in the past to impose restrictions on himself for the sake of a challenge, that too is a reasonable assertion to make. Omit that bit of speculation if you like, but the bit about the weather affecting his energy control is perfectly viable and based upon Goku's own exact dialogue. Therefore, it is absolutely reasonable and fair to include the weather reason on the page as a possible explanation for him not going Super Saiyan here. EBsessed (talk) 20:36, December 24, 2014 (UTC)

That's still just you making a guess based on your theories. Any of these could be true, or maybe another reason. There are multiple possibilities and we don't need to assert any particular one on the readers. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 08:06, December 25, 2014 (UTC)

Are you serious? That makes absolutely zero sense! I pointed out on your talk page the MYRIAD examples of speculation all over the wiki, which you defended as being justified by them being perfectly reasonable possibilities within the Dragon Ball universe, offering possible explanations to help readers/viewers understand how something that seems to break the timeline actually can make perfect sense. Here I have done the EXACT SAME THING those other examples of speculation did, and yet you claim mine unjust. Hell, all of those other things are simply based on guesses and theories all the same as mine here are, and they could all be true or not be true for other reasons, and yet my example here actually uses an exact line of dialogue to back it up, which NONE of those other examples do. I won't sample the large number of examples of this exact same thing here since I already did just that on your talk page, but what I am trying to accomplish here on this wiki page is NO DIFFERENT from any of all of those other examples, and in fact should be even MORE justified since it samples Goku's exact dialogue as proof. So I ask you in sincere bafflement: WTF DUDE. It is maddening to sit here watching you justify other examples of this exact same kind of thinking while rejecting my own, especially when mine has more evidence backing it up than most other speculation that you justified all over the wiki. Your reasoning is totally inconsistent and I am calling serious b.s. here. EBsessed (talk) 19:06, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

It looks like I am late to this debate, but I thought I might offer my two cents. While it's preferable that articles have zero speculation, there is some merit in including low level speculation to offer just a possible explanation for inconsistencies. The difference I see in this situation from other types of speculation such as the explanation for Gohan's tail on the Cooler's Revenge page is that this particular speculation seeks to determine the reasoning behing a characters actions/a character's thought process, rather than why a certain event occurred. It's easy to use basic logic to explain an event but trying to figure out what Goku was thinking is a bit more speculative. I do realize that you've found certain articles that attempt to fathom the same type of thing, but that doesn't make those articles any less speculative, and I would advise you to go to the talk pages of those articles too.

On the other hand, you are correct about Goku holding back a lot, and presumably about Goku stating that it's hard to focus his energy (I can't remember it too well, as I haven't seen it in a while) which are two very likely reasons for Goku not to have gone Super Saiyan. I admit that they are both pretty consistent with the presented evidence in the show, and Goku himself said that he couldn't focus his energy, which is kind of a prerequisite for Super Saiyan. It's ultimately up to the community and our policies but I'm not overly against this edit; but the policy that the community decided on does state that we should try to avoid speculation, especially of this type. I'm also basically just taking your word for it on the cold thing; I'll have to rewatch the movie and see.

Sorry for the very "fence-sitter" opinion.

Tapion13 Shakuran13' Talk' 20:12, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

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