Talk:Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn

Did anyone notice after Veku recovers the first time in the Japanese and English dubbed version of this movie...

... How he gave Janemba the middle finger? And how it wasn't "edited" in the English dub?

Like right about 1:01 after his little speech about getting this over with in the Japanese. And at 3 minutes sharp in the English dub. o.õ
Ye... ah. That's almost all I wanted to check. The rest is just the question that bothers me: "Does this actually count as trivia? How Veku flipping Janemba off wasn't edited in the English dub?" --光に、闇に、虚無。 09:31, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

isn't it possible that the movie just takes place a few years after the fight against kid buu and goku and vegeta died again (not something very likely i admit but at least possible in the dbz timeline) ?

Guku and Vegeta were resurected during the fight against kid Buu while they are both in the Other World in this movie. Jeangabin666 14:07, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Villain Identification

Appule-like soldier behind Zarbon, and a Lord Slug minor soldier on the right hand bottom corner

Lord Slug minor soldiers in Lord Slug

It seems there is one of Lord Slug's minor soldiers on the right picture, only with yellow clothes instead of dark blue (same mistake as for Salza).

As well as Bio-Men and Appule-like soldiers. And maybe Doria between Salza and Sansho and below the Bio-Man on the picture below. Jeangabin666 20:32, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Bio-Man, and Doria??

Bio-Men in The World Strongest

A pink Saibaman/bioman?? on the left (and Zarbon??)

Appule-like soldier, and Doria?? below Gohan's knee

Nicky with Sansho's colors?? on the left

I haven't seen some villain listed on the page: Amond, Doore, Guldo (maybe he has the wrong colors??), Kishime, and Neiz. I'm not sure for Nicky as a character that looks like him appears, but he hasn't the good colors.

One of the villain looks like Commander Zeeun (horns and clothes) but with Ebifurya colors. Who is he? Jeangabin666 21:15, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Zeeun/Ebifurya-like character on the right

Commander Zeeun

Ebifurya

Characters on the cover but that I haven't seen in the film: Cooler, Nappa?? (might be in), Raditz, Doria?? (might be in), Lord Slug, Ebifurya?? (see above).

Medamatcha appear but with a different coloring. Jeangabin666 23:02, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Doria below Gohan's knee and Nappa on the right hand bottom corner??

Medamatcha light blue with white throusers and a yellow belt behind Frieza

File:BujinCacaoGokua.png

Bujin, Cacao, and Kogu

Paragus Soldiers in Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan

One of Paragus' soldier also appears, but with different coloring (armor white instead of purple and skin light-purple instead of green). Jeangabin666 05:48, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

A soldier that looks like the leader of Dodoria's Elite appear but with a different coloring, as well as the member of Dodoria's Elite that is from the same species as Frieza Soldier in his alternative outfit of BT3.

Kogu can be seen behind Zangya just when her hair begins to appear on screen (he can be seen on the right-hand bottom corner of the screenshot on the right). Jeangabin666 14:07, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

A member of Dodoria's Elite and Jeice

Dodoria's Elite in Bardock - The Father of Goku

Dodoria's Elite leader on the left & Paragus Soldier below

Wings appears but he is green and his armor is white (making it looks like more like one of Frieza's soldiers Armor). Bido appear with the living-deads that attack Satan, also with an unusual coloring. Jeangabin666 22:56, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Wings behind frieza's tail

Wings above Frieza, his armor can be reconized and we can see his belt

Bido in Bojack Unbound

Bido in Fusion Reborn

So does Nappa appear in Movie 12

No. Jeangabin666 13:24, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Why do they appear in diiferent colouring.

because they can User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig14 14:11, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

The guy who was in charge of the coloring had a lots of work, he couldn't remember all the colors of all characters (at the time, most of the characters didn't ever appeared in any video game, they only appeared in their respective OVA and this was only their second appearance). Jeangabin666 14:18, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Why was Bido with the Living Deads instead being part of Frieza's Army.

Because this was more funny. Jeangabin666 18:19, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that's Bido? A lot of different colored lookalikes appear in DBZ as stock characters. Tokeupdude 16:58, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Villain Appearance

I haven't seen Amond, Doore, Guldo (different coloring??), Kishime, and Neiz in the movie. Can anyone confirm their appearance? Are they on the film's cover?? Jeangabin666 22:09, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

The name is DOdoria

and it's not him in all the pictures you mentioned

EDIT: oh, I was replaying to the guy with the pictures. Dodoria21 07:54, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

2nd EDIT: oh, it's you the guy with the pictures. Dodoria21 07:55, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

It's a pink big guy with spikes on the head and pointy ears.. this looks very much like Dodoria to me :p Jeangabin666 11:53, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

i think allof this is speculation User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig12 14:12, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone have a better version of the film's cover? I think Amond and some other might be on it but the quality of the file on this page is very low. Jeangabin666 14:28, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Does Dr. Wheelo appear on the cover of the film 10:55 November 6 2010 (UTC)

It can be him (on right-hand top corner, above Slug) but we need a better quality image to confirm this. Also there is a character witha white cape that looks a Namek?? under Cooler's knee. Jeangabin666 13:35, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Android # 19 appear in Fusion Reborn.

No, he only escapes from Hell in DBGT. Jeangabin666 14:56, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Doore and Neiz appear in the Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn

No, they don't. Jeangabin666 15:29, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Spice, Vinegar, Mustard and Salt appear in Movie 12

No they don't, only Garlic's henchmen from movie 1 appear. Jeangabin666 15:41, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Guldo appear in Fusion Reborn.

No, he doesn't appear in Fusion Reborn. Jeangabin666 16:03, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Captain Ginyu appear in the Fusion Reborn.

No. Jeangabin666 16:25, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Recoome, Jeice and Burter appear in the Fusion Reborn.

Yes, they can be seen on the screenshots here and on the article. Jeangabin666 16:39, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Nappa and Raditz appear in Movie 12.

They are only seen on the film's poster. Jeangabin666 16:51, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Angila appear in Fusion Reborn

Appearantly no. I haven't seen him or a character that looks like him with a different color in this movie. Jeangabin666 17:10, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Frieza Soldiers appear in the Fusion Reborn.

Not in his first outfit. If you consider Frieza Soldier's alternative outfit, a character that looks more like one of Dodoria's Elite appears (see the pics above). Jeangabin666 17:34, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Garlic Jr appear in Fusion Reborn.

No. Jeangabin666 17:47, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does the Galaxy Soldiers appear in the Fusion Reborn.

Yes. Jeangabin666 17:54, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Lucifer appear in Fusion Reborn.

No. Jeangabin666 18:04, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Broly appear in the Fusion Reborn beacaue at the end of Bio-Broly he is mentioned to be a resident of Hell.

He might be a resident of hell but he doesn't appear in Fusion Reborn. Jeangabin666 18:15, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Amond appear in Fusion Reborn.

He might be on the film's poster (on the left part between Zarbon and Nappa), but I can't find a high quality version of the poster to be sure. Jeangabin666 18:26, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does King Cold appear in the Fusion Reborn.

No. Jeangabin666 19:09, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

How many Villains do appear in the Fusion Reborn.

Héhé, countless. But from the anime series, only something like thirty or fourthy. Jeangabin666 19:20, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Kishime appear in the Fusion Reborn.

No. Here is a link if you want watch the movie: http://www.watch-dragonball.com/watch/508-dragonball-z-movie-12/ Jeangabin666 20:06, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't Cell appear in the Fusion Reborn because he is a resident of Hell.

Maybe he didn't wanted to return on Earth.. Jeangabin666 20:17, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does all the residents from hell appear in the Fusion Reborn.

No. Jeangabin666 20:39, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Buyon appear in Movie 12

No, there is no DB villains in this movie. Jeangabin666 20:49, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Salza and Cooler appear in Fusion Reborn.

i think salza does User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig14 21:50, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Cooler appear in Fusion Reborn.

i didnt see him User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig14 22:39, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Android # 13, Android # 14 and Android # 15 appear in Fusion Reborn.

No, there isn't any android in this movie. This also includes Cell. Jeangabin666 22:54, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Lord Slug, Medmatcha, Medas, Commander Zeeun, and Wings appear in Fusion Reborn.

Yes, you should really watch the movie.. Jeangabin666 23:22, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Does Spice appears in the Fusion Reborn.

no hes not important enough to appear User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig14 00:23, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Does Tambourine, Cymbal and Drum appear in Fusion Reborn.\

for the love of god watch the freaking movie and find out yourself User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig14 00:30, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Who else escapes Hell in the Fusion Reborn.

Nobody, all the villains that escape from hell in Fusion Reborn are already listed. Jeangabin666 13:24, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

So Hatchiyack doesn't appear in Movie 12

No, he is from a very rare OVA (at least at the time of movie 12 release). There is no way he could have been in this movie. Jeangabin666 14:06, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

and it still hasnt been dubbed so why would they put him in there User:Ultimatesupersaiyanvegito/sig14 14:09, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Does Frieza's Henchmen appear in Fusion Reborn.

yep, they do ; )

Does Pui-Pui, Yakon, Spopovich and Yamu appear in Fusion Reborn.

No. Jeangabin666 18:19, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia Section

Could I mention on there that this movie had the largest amount of villain cameo appearances out of any movie/episode? Tokeupdude 15:31, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Vegeta dont tell Goku that he knows about super saiyan 3 until Goku asks Vegeta to wear the potara earing before forming Vegito

As i saw in the movie, Vegeta is unimpressed when Goku is super saiyan three when he was fighting Super Janemba, but in the anime, when he comes back to earth to fight Super Buu with Goku, Vegeta goes super saiyan and Goku too to fight Super Buu, but Goku didn't want to become ssj3 to not make Vegeta feel weak, then Goku tells Vegeta that the only way to beat Super Buu is only to fuse with those potaras, but Vegeta refuses and he tells Goku that he is humiliated because Goku did not tell him that he can turn ssj3 and let him win when they last battled as super saiyan twos.

So this is a bad mistake if we dont care alot of the events that happend before the movie was made, so in my opinion i consider this movie as a complete filler fan-made movie, and also in the french version of the movie Vegeta says: Don't count on me to restart tomorrow , when defusing from Goku before becoming smoke and then dissappear wich may explain the reason Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse to kill Kid Buu but it counts only if this movie was canon, and if they add a scene when Vegeta sees Goku with his SSJ3 hair and then with quotes like thes: Is that you Kakarott? you look very different when we last see, how can make your hair grew in a such fast way? Yes it's me and this is a super saiyan three! What?!!! and removing the scenes where Vegeta is humiliated because of goku not telling him about SSJ3.

But referring to the manga, there is no moments where Goku and Vegeta use fusion dance to fight but its a good movie if the events happen after the defeat of Kid Buu —This unsigned comment was made by 174.94.109.231 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

First, please sign your posts. Second, check out the MoS for our stance on movies. -- 10X Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha ^.._.^.. _{talk .}^..._{. contrib}. 06:15, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Vegeta wasn't there when Goku was a Super Saiyan 3 in Fusion Reborn. He arrived after, so didn't see Goku in that form in the movie. Jeangabin666 10:06, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with jeangabin, the movie is good on its own right why worry about little details its really meaningless to worry about it. Trunksl

Boo M

"Boo M"

Have you ever seen that it is written "Boo" (the Japanese spelling of Buu) with an "M" similar to the Majin symbol on top of the green building on this image? JeangabinTalkContrib 23:07, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

SS form against Janemba

It is not stated in the movie in which form Goku and Vegeta battle Janemba. But in the BT2 and BT3 story modes, which has both characters in their SS and SS2 forms, they battle Janemba in their SS form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e-t34WwyAU Also, when Goku and Vegeta fuse in the movie, Gogeta is a Super Saiyan, not a Super Saiyan 2. Same in Ultimate Tenkaichi, the SS2 form is not used in the battles against Janemba despite being available for the two Saiyans in the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7SOsoqKwVA In Buu's Fury, which features the Fusion Reborn storyline, the SS2 form is not avalaible in the whole game. JeangabinTalkContrib 19:41, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

So we have source for saying that they're in their Super Saiyan form, but no source to they that they're Super Saiyan 2. Can the page be changed to include what is sourced instead of speculation? JeangabinTalkContrib 12:50, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Continuity

I just want to talk about Goku taking part in another Other World Tournament being removed from the Continuity section. I understand that it is theoretically possible that he may have left the Sacred Planet of the Kais to go participate, but I find that viewpoint to be extremely unrealistic. As the Continuity section notes, this movie seems to be vaguely set in a timeperiod after Goten and Trunks learn to fuse as SS and before Evil Buu emerges. Goku, at that point, was at the Sacred World of the Kais. The anime and manga both seem very clear that he spent all his time there until he had to leave to go help Gohan, and I find the notion that he offscreen left for a while to have some fun fighting in a tournament when his friends and family are struggling so much to be incredibly hard to believe. There is no way Goku would have just up and left at such a critical time, there was no interruption in that span in the show for that to have happened as he was watching Gohan or interacting with the Kais.

I also don't really get why the section seems to emphasize Gohan's clothing being improper rather than his actual presence on Earth, hanging with his friends, at a time when he simply should not be there but on the Kai's world. I think there really should be more emphasis on the latter, because if in Goku's case its being gone by the fact that he "may have gone offscreen" during his time on the Sacred World, then we could just as easily say Gohan may have changed his clothing offscreen and use that to fit it in continuity

I also know its not really as definitive, but the consensus everywhere else seems to be that this really is unbelievable to placed as happening during Buu's time ravaging Earth. All of the characters just seem to be chilling when all of these villains start showing up... not at all fitting well with Buu still being a problem. Vegeta also seemed totally unfamiliar with the concept of fusion when he met Goku during the Fusion saga, and their interaction seems more akin to the two having not seen each other since Vegeta's death. Any edits done to point out these problems get undone, and while I realize not everyone can share a consensus, the continuity section in my opinion seems to lean too much towards it fitting when 99% of fans tend to agree this is the one movie where debate over it fitting is nearly impossible.Scarletspiderfan 20:19, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

1. Whether you find the fact that Goku could have left the Sacred Planet of the Kais believable or not is irrelevant. The only point is that it could have happened. I don't know about the anime, but the manga never implies that Goku was with Gohan the entire time. Though unrealistic, it is not impossible.

2. Well, it does mention both. I don't know what more you want.

3. 99% seems to be a made up statistic, but the article never says it is or is not possible to be placed in continuity, merely that if we try to place it in continuity, that's where it should go.

Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 20:31, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

But this is an anime movie, so it really doesn't have anything to do with the manga series. In the anime series, Goku is very clearly there the entire time. And I would actually argue that it couldn't have happened, watching this movie the characters very clearly are not dealing with Buu simultaneously with this sudden attack by Janemba. I know its theoretically possible, but people don't really act in such strange ways in a situation like that; the characters are seemingly in a time of peace when they're interrupted by Janemba's appearance.

Yes 99% is a made up statistic, of course there is no official way of measuring it but most of what I've heard seems to judge this as one of those movies that don't fit. My point though is that these are actual issues with placing it in this area, so they at least deserve being mentioned. The section is lengthy in placing it somewhere, only to provide a one sentence thing of oh Gohan's there at the wrong time in the wrong clothes. It seems it could be more informative on how it could not fit.

Also, why a GBA game that loosly adapts the series is being used to place this movie in continuity is lost on me. Videl's watch and simple deductive reasoning seem like enough to place it somewhere, so I don't understand why Buu's Fury (mind you, the paragraph on it more or less just replicates the info in the other paragraph that place it in that one timespan) is used in discussions of continuity. Essentially, what I'm saying is the section could be simplified rather easily than being so detailed, simply stating that it seems placeable in that episode span then just pointing out Gohan's status screwing with that (if people really feel the Goku in Tournament thing isn't an issue). I also think its smoother to lay out where it could be placed, then saying what issues there are with that, rather than going back and forth and mixing problems with placement. Long sentences and repetition of info makes it look rather messy.Scarletspiderfan 00:28, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Shakuran13. We need to stick to listing facts and leave out our personal opinions and feelings. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:02, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting, and your point is fair but I really think it is fact that Goku wouldn't have left. The storyline of the Buu saga simply couldn't have had an interruption like that where everyone just went off and did their own thing offscreen right in the middle of the ongoing story, given DBZ's extremely serialized method of storytelling. Its like saying Batman could've fought another villain in between scenes of the Dark Knight or something (and even that provided legit downtime for the character where he wasn't actually in the middle of something. This line of thought is so much more speculative and less factual then simply going by what's onscreen like I'm saying; using the logic of "it could happen offscreen.", you could place any of the movies almost anywhere in the series. And there's more to it than just my personal feelings on where it does and doesn't fit. You didn't address it, but I'm curious what your opinion on Buu's Fury being usedScarletspiderfan 00:46, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

It can't be a fact if there is no evidence other than you really thinking it. Despite our feelings, which are of course different from each reader to the next, avoiding an inconsistency by listing only evidence takes precedence in an encyclopedic site like this one. A character making an unexpected decision is surely within the realm of possibility in a world where humans can fly. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 12:54, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

But there is no evidence of Goku making that decision either. My evidence is what happened during the actual storyline of the show. I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand how a hypothetical possibility is considered evidence and following the actual storyline of the show isn't. And I'm making other points that you're not really responding to so I'd like to know what your feelings on those are as well?Scarletspiderfan 20:37, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the movie events occurred are not hypothetical. Your feelings about Goku are opinions, not facts. Stating my own feelings wouldn't help either, since my statements are not official media, whereas the movies are. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 01:19, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

First off to reiterate, there are other things besides the Goku thing that I mentioned earlier that you're not discussing that I'd like to get your view on. It is your "feelings", meaning your perspective on the official media that I was referring to if you could discuss those? Such as Vegeta not being familiar with fusion when he came back to Earth against Super Buu, or the other characters not being on the Lookout. And also, given that you've agreed with the position it is unlikely that he left, but possibility is the key, why is it that both possibilities don't get mentioned in a section that is meant to be neutral and lay out what could and couldn't work as part of continuity?

Since that seems unlikely, back to the topic at hand. Its not the movie that I'm saying is hypothetical, its the position that Goku could have left during the course of the series that is. "It's possible" isn't really evidence. The DBZ anime is serialized, with all the episodes running consecutively, with no jump in time outside of spaces between sagas. Essentially, that means that for Goku to have left it would have been between scenes in the series. If he was away briefly, then fine, but playing an entire tournament to get to a Goku/Pikkon final would have taken a considerable amount of time. Since you've said yourself that evidence and facts are what is important, I'd like to know what evidence or facts there are that support the position that he left for a good while and this is during the Fusion Saga, since the anime series has him on the Supreme Kai planet the entire time and the section notes that the movie clearly does not have Majin Buu prowling around Earth. I'm using the official media to back my end of the discussion, wheras saying Goku could have left is what is speculative and requires making assumptions. Gohan's presence being an issue is mentioned in the continuity section despite the same logic making it possible he left, so why a double standard with Goku?Scarletspiderfan 18:10, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think you're going to have a hard time getting anyone to agree with you until you get past the issue of your own opinions and logic being completely unavailable to use here when they contradict the events of official media. "It's possible" is indeed evidence when the situation is a choice between a possible thing and a contradiction. We will always choose the possible over the contradiction, simply because that is how an encyclopedia works. Compared to an option with no contradictions, the other case is most definitely not a possibility. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 20:02, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

We have two very different interpretations of this discussion, and I'm getting the sense you are not even reading my entire posts. You keep repeating that what I'm saying is an opinion and that I'm ignoring the official media. But what separates opinion from fact? That would be actual evidence....from the official media... which I've given quite a bit of. This isn't as simple as just picking between a contradiction and a possibility, its picking between evidence from official media and assumptions about that media. A professional encyclopedia should always use evidence and not rest on assumptions. If you scroll up this page alone or look at any other talk page where there has been debate, you will see so many instances of other users (yourself included) arguing that evidence and sources are the most important thing. I could make so many claims about the show just based on possibilities, from Vegito being a SS2 to Cell being stronger than Broly that contradict official media, and there is no way that it would be tolerated just because its possible. You're still ignoring large parts of my posts, both actual evidence from the most official of media there can be (the show itself) and the inconsistency of the same position saying Gohan could have left but it still being on the continuity page. Even if a possibility is evidence, there is overwhelmingly more evidence in favor of the contradiction. It is not stated in this movie that Goku is away nor is there an instance in the series where he decides to, making his departure the unproven assumption. The official media itself, from the character plotlines in this movie to the events of the anime series, strongly points to it not being in the realm of possibility. And to repeat, and by your own admission, it is evidence and facts that are important. Mere possibilities may well be important, but only in the absence of facts disproving them. There are an incredibly broad number of possibilities in discussions of continuity, and the facts of the show point against it being possible.

Since we are discussing something "in the realm of possibility" and not definitively stated nor shown in the media we are discussing, I still do not see why it is not at least mentioned in the section, (and I'm not even saying it should be outright declared a contradiction, merely that it seems like an issue but might be possible). Possibility =/= fact, yet the absence of at least a mention in the section all but declares it a fact that Goku left offscreen, which evidence once again leans heavily against. And your statement of choosing possible over contradiction....that doesn't seem to be consistently applied, given the Gohan issue being stated in the section.

"Compared to an option with no contradictions, the other case is most definitely not a possibility" And the option with no contradiction is that he didn't leave and its not in continuity, making the option against it not a possibility. I don't mean to come across as abrasive by underlining and italicizing things, but I really feel you are missing parts of what I'm saying. Declaring something a non-issue does not make it so.Scarletspiderfan 01:12, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

You are currently changing the tone of the discussion from the topic at hand to your personal (incorrect) guesses about my actions. I read every post fully and give you the response that fits according to my perceptions. I can't help it if you would like me to say something else, but your view of this topic just happens to differ from mine and the other users who have posted. In this case I stand by the community's previously established viewpoint, which is that something that agrees with all facts in the series to some degree is possible, while something that contradicts the series to any degree is not. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:35, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

The manga doesn't state that Goku stayed with Gohan the whole time. We see Old Kai starting his ritual after the introduction dace, then Gotenks vs. Super Buu, and then the group again on the Supreme Kai's planet when the ritual is already finished since several hours. The continuity section is made to find a placement for the movies, not to state that it happened in an alternate timelime where SS3 Goku or Gotenks defeated Majin Buu, so this and this happened... which would be the real speculation. JeangabinTalkContrib 10:37, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

10x, I'm not trying to distract by making the issue about you're actions. You're position seems to be "its possible and thus is a non-issue". That's fine if that's majority view of how it should be done, but it doesn't change that is not being applied consistently, as I have pointed out which is what continues to be ignored. My actual point of disagreement is that I have been giving legitimate reasons on my side the entire time as to why it seems impossible, only to see you respond with "its your opinion and facts are important. Its possible" each and every time. Well... what makes it possible? I've said why it doesn't seem possible many, many times, but your response has been that its just my incorrect opinion and its possible just because it is. I have not read any evidence from you as to why it is even possible, and what I'm saying (and what you said before) is that evidence is what is the most important thing on a wiki that strives to be as factual as posssible.

Jeangebin, on the other hand, has now actually entered to discuss. I would like to first point out that this is an anime movie (that features anime-only villains as part of the escape from Hell no less) so I'm not sure why the manga continuity is to be given more weight than the anime itself. But as a response anyway, you seem to be saying that because it is not explicitly stated he did not leave, then that is the evidence. But what about all the evidence that says otherwise? I'm sorry, but evidence leans towards him not leaving. He is not shown leaving, so how can it not being explicitly stated he left by itself override the numerous evidence that said otherwise? I made no mention whatsoever or speculated at all about an alternate timeline where events were different. As you've said the continuity section is made to find a placement for the movies, but every continuity section on this wiki points out what may be right or wrong with placing it in a certain spot. With the "possibility approach", why are continuity conflicts even mentioned in any continuity section if it something not being explicitly stated is all that is necessary to disprove it? And why is not used consistently? Example for both - Gohan in this section alone, or everything mentioned as a problem in the continuity section for Bio-Broly. Scarletspiderfan 19:41, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

What makes it possible is not contradicting the series. What makes other things not possible is contradicting the series. Perhaps someone with better communication skills than me can explain this better, but the logic is sound and we can't use your idea. Sorry for any inconvenience. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 20:31, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

No need to apologize, as I know it is not personal. But I will, as a final statement, reiterate that the logic itself is not being followed in this case. At the end of the day, it is a contradiction of the series to say he left, since it is never stated nor shown in the official media. It requires assumption to say he did, making the position he left speculation no matter how many times it is reiterated that I am the one speculating. And it still logic that is being used selectively, as I have given numerous instances of and which continues to go without a rebuttal and be ignored no matter how many times I point it out. Scarletspiderfan 20:58, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Buu's Fury shows that Goku wasn't with Gohan the whole time. JeangabinTalkContrib 18:39, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Buu's Fury is also an adaption of the series that is not in the same continuity as the series, it takes several liberties with the storyline for gameplay purposes, it is not the series itself. It even alters the events of Fusion Reborn itself to squeeze it more fluidly into the Buu saga, which would introduce more issues. It would be like saying Budokai 2 is in continuity with the series and using it to explain problems with an anime storyline, despite it being a video game retelling. But if this wiki's position is that GBA games that are remakes/retellings have weight in continuity and can solve contradictions between anime and movie, then I'm willing to admit that does work as evidence. What I do still feel is an issue is that these types of issues (issues being problems that are "solvable" by being possible offscreen) are mentioned in every continuity section for every single movie (and mentioned how it is possibly solved), yet it goes without even a mention for just this one specific instance. Its that appearance of a double standard that is frustrating me and keeping me posting, not that I'm sure you don't enjoy a good old fashioned continuity debate between fans.Scarletspiderfan 02:12, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

There was no obligation for Goku to stay with Gohan the whole time. Goku's case is different to Gohan's.. Gohan had to stay on the planet of the Kais because of Old Kai's ritual, not Goku.. If it's possible that Goku leaved behind screen without altering the original manga storyline, then it's not a continuity issue. JeangabinTalkContrib 09:24, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think the current edit is actually a nice little middleground there mentioning how it was not seen, which is something I must've have missed since I first opened the topic or was done w/o me noticing since then. Regardless, thank you for clearing up the differences and the logic and taking the time to courteously respond. Perhaps it was my own fault, but I just wasn't able to get it the way 10x was explaining.Scarletspiderfan 20:08, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

The article must be left the same until discussion is concluded. Currently we will not be changing it as a result of said discussion, so please refrain from doing so. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:32, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Look at the two recent edits before undoing them. You will see that I didn't change anything related to the content or discussion, there is just a grammar error in starting that sentence with "Even though," when there is no change in tense after the comma. I did not alter anything whatsoever related to the discussion, which i conceded.Scarletspiderfan 17:34, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Okay thanks. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:10, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Np man, thanks again for taking the time to talk w/ me.Scarletspiderfan 16:15, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out that if Gohan was on the Sacred Planet of the Kai's and Old Kai was doing his ritual on Gohan would make it impossible for Gohan to be on earth to punch Frieza which indicates a contradiction from the continuity thus in my opinion should make the movie impossible to place in the continuty. User:SSJ4 Vegito/sig15 03:07, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone has instant transmission by this point. Earth being overrun with enemies would be enough of a reason for a brief return. At the very least, far from impossible. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:23, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

"Everyone has instant transmission by this point."

Wait, what? Where is the evidence of this? Should I add this ability to people's articles? No offense, but this is a rather ridiculous claim. Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 03:34, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

The top Z Fighters all seem to have picked it up between the Cell Games and the Buu sagas. Even ignoring this, since it's by observation rather than specifically named, Supreme Kai demonstrates teleportation between planets several times, both himself and others, is with Gohan during his training. I'm not saying throw that in an article, but saying Gohan is helplessly stranded during his training would be incorrect. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 04:16, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

I have never seen anything to suggest that anyone besides Goku and Supreme Kai can do any instant transmission. Goku specifically has to make the finger sign thing, which no one else ever does. Anyways, you are correct about the fact that it was possible that Supreme Kai teleported him. I find it unlikely, but whether we believe he did or did not teleport him, both theories are speculation. Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 04:45, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Both are indeed speculation, and notably one derives a contradiction while the other does not. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:16, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

I have been looking into this and I notice that this movie would have to take place in or in between episodes 253 to 256 as in episode 256 Goten and Trunks enter ROSAT and because Videl is dead before Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo can exit it it would be quit impossible to place it anywhere else do to other facts that cause issues to fit it into continuity. Also if I recall correctly I heard Goku mention that no one has taken him to the point of Super Saiyan Three, if that is the case then that means that was the first use of the transformation meaning it would occur before his battle with Majin Buu, which happens before Goku ever taught Goten and Trunks the fusion dance. User:SSJ4 Vegito/sig15 14:25, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well in fairness he said first use "since Majin Buu", so we wouldn't know if that refers to the battle with Fat or Kid Buu, but this movie certainly seems to denote the former (as you say 253-256) since Vegeta and Goku don't seem to have seen each other since their fight and Vegeta seems unfamiliar with Fusion here. Actually, thinking about that... wasn't he also unfamiliar with it when they became Vegito (another continuity problem if this happened b4). The issue you brought up with Gohan has been on this page for quite some time, but someone, not suprisingly, decided to remove it. Even if Gohan could be transported, its an odd claim that he was since that would mean the ritual would have had to have been interrupted even though Old Kai made a point out of him having to sit still the entire time. Also, everyone still on Earth thought he was DEAD at that point. Do Goten, Trunks, or Videl act in this movie like he has suddenly returned from the grave, does it seem like when he showed up to fight Super Buu that they had seen him since his "death". I know we're trying to find wiggle room here to avoid contradictions with the series.... but at a certain point it gets to be really reaching with how certain things fit. The characters don't even remotely act in this movie or in the series like these explanations actually happened. At this point, with how ridiculous the explanations and pretending there aren't coninuity issues has gotten, I have to question why even have a continuity section? The goal may be to avoid contradiction... but these explanations contradict the series themselves.Scarletspiderfan (talk) 17:26, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Scarletspiderfan, please stop using the excuse that something is unlikely as a reason to try and throw away non-contradictory events. DBZ is full of unlikely events and we don't throw away episodes that show unlikely things like humans flying. Further, even if the movie specifically wrote that it took place in an alternate universe where Goku and Vegeta never existed, we would have a continuity section for the purpose of explaining parallel events in the two timelines. In summary, please just state new evidence that you find and hold off on judgements. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 19:59, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Its not that its just unlikely, its that its impossible. And I just gave new evidence... as did SSJ4 Vegito, but I'll repost it again: everyone on Earth thought Gohan was dead until he showed up to fight Super Buu, but in this movie, its clear that's not the case. Do Goten, Trunks, or Videl act in this movie react to their dead friend suddenly returning from the grave? When he showed up to fight Super Buu, do they act like that they had seen him since his "death"? The answer is no, in either case. The ritual would've had to have been interrupted, even though he was told to sit still in the series. I've given an incredible amount of evidence as to how it doesn't fit this entire time even besides that, a lot of which was never even given a rebuttal. Again, I'm not saying its unlikely, its that what you're describing is impossible to fit into the sequence of events we see in the series. You've said something is possible when it doesn't contradict the series, but what you're describing contradicts both the serialized events of the series and this movie, with no evidence or dialogue present in either to support it. Both Goku and Gohan leaving is in contradiction to what we saw in the series, where they both decided to stay on the Sacred Kai Planet. As is Vegeta being unfamiliar with Fusion in the Fusion saga, or some of the other events of this movie.

As for the flying? That's part of the storyline, a power they're given that's given an in-universe explanation that makes sense with the in-universe physics and plotline of the show, that seems like an oversimplification to use that as a basis for writing off continuity errors. For the record, at this point I'm not even arguing for the section ot say it doesn't fit, but the problems should at least be mentioned for neutrality's sake.Scarletspiderfan (talk) 22:33, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for conceding that the section should stay and that unlikely events, such as human flight, do in fact happen in the series. The characters not knowing that Gohan is alive is a good point that I agree should be added. Your rash assertions that there is some other, possibly not yet mentioned (since I've addressed everything else that you did mention) evidence that also acts as a contradiction makes it futile to discuss the movie fitting into the timeline are still counterproductive and should be omitted from future posts. In contrast with the many internal contradictions of DBZ, this single issue is notable but not dissimilar enough to those to simply cast the movie aside. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:01, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well, seeing that we are not going to cast the movie aside, at least we should change the continuity section to point out that the movie will most likely have taken place anywhere withing the episode 253 to 256 timespan as it seems that is the most logical and possible only logical place to place it. User:SSJ4 Vegito/sig15 12:11, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well of course unlikely events happen lol but those aren't related to continuity was all I was saying, since those are integral part of the in-universe storyline that are explained. Regarding "rash assertions", I was referring to Vegeta not being familiar with Fusion in the Fusion saga as a possible issue as well as characters not being on the lookout. No abrasiveness is intented if it came across that way, but thanks again for your patience throughout the discussion..Scarletspiderfan (talk) 16:06, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really understand why people are even arguing that this can somehow fit into the storyline. It can't. If Fusion Reborn took place between the Majin Buu Saga, then

1. Shouldn't the world be in panic?

2. Shouldn't Gohan be with Elder Kai and not wasting time being Saiyaman? It's not like he could just up and leave when such an important issue was going on....

3. Why is Goku fighting in a Tournament when Gohan is with Elder Kai and the world is in grave danger? It doesn't make sense.

4. Shouldn't Videl and the others be at Kami's lookout?

5. If Gohan was just taking a brief break, then why do we see him, Videl and the kids returning home at the end of the movie?

6. How can Gotenks go SS and also, why does he have his signiture attacks? These weren't achieved until much later...

Just my two cents. File:Gohan power up.jpgI can never forgive you for what you've done!File:510253-3411355-gohanSS2.JPG 16:26, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think #6 is necessarily a problem, as we don't know exactly that Gotenks didn't create those moves in the "253" area this seems to be set it. But regarding #2-5: The counterpoint is that because it is physically possible for the characters to all leave to take a break, then its reasonable for the section to be written as though its a given that the characters chose to do this. We seem to agree that it requires the characters to make the nonsensical choice to pursue leisure when Earth is in imminent danger (and I maintain that ommitting these conflicts b/t movie and series is neither neutral nor how the continuity sections have been written in the past), but there's not really any anything that can be said anymore to challenge this interpretation, so its a moot point at this juncture.Scarletspiderfan (talk) 19:06, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Please disregard my previous statements about 253 to 256, as upon further research I realize that 253 has the only, if any window of opportunity for the events of Fusion Reborn to take place in the series continuity. User:SSJ4 Vegito/sig15

There is no real way the movie can fit into continuity. None of the films were meant for that, they were meant to be side-stories just to cash in off of the franchise. Fusion Reborn especially doesn't try, even if the movies were meant to fit in the series, which would break much continuity if they were.

First off, where's Buu? Through a line of dialogue, Goku says he's only ever used Super Saiyan 3 once before, when fighting Fat Buu. Gohan, during that fight, was either unconscious/near death after his struggle with Buu, or more likely, training with Supreme Kai, wearing a completely different suit than his Great Saiyaman one. I really doubt Supreme Kai would just let Gohan "have a break", as it was clearly shown in the movie he was on Earth as if it was a normal day (no supernatrual villains). Also, while it doesn't break continuity, if this movie takes place before Vegito was created (because there's no way this movie took place around the time Vegito fought Super Buu or when Kid Buu was reborn), then it clearly has some issues with Vegeta. Firstly, Vegeta obviouslly knew how strong Buu was, as he couldn't even get close to defeating him before he sacrificed himself, and yet, even when he saw the stronger Super Buu, he refused fusion for quite a while. Why would Vegeta in Fusion Reborn accept fusion after a much less time deciding, and then after knowing how strong Buu is, refuse after? It doesn't make much sense to me.

The movies were not meant to fit in the series, I don't see why these connections need to be made. Possibly due to Dragon Ball GT using them in their recycled plot device of making the villains escape, but that alone raises too many unneeded problems for this particular debate. There's my two cents. User:The Goatee/sig 12:09, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

It's true that the movies were clearly written with being exciting and having some new characters in mind, rather than advancing the plot in the way that a regular episode would. However, they are are still aimed at a particular point in the chronology, and telling the readers when it was is the main goal of the continuity section. I am not sure why continuity was evolved into that purpose plus the addition of listing inconsistencies, which would normally be in the trivia section of an article. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 20:43, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

If there were "estimates" on where the film places in terms of continuity, but didn't make it too much of a deal, that wouldn't be a problem. The problem is, many people attempt to place these movies in the series itself, despite the fact none of the villains are ever referred to in the series directly, and just as stated before, the many, many numerous plot holes that follow in each one. While I understand that some films could easily fit in the series with not too many problems, such as Wrath of the Dragon, doesn't mean these films should be included while others are ignored. Either's it's have them all part of the series, or not, unless stated by the creators otherwise. User:The Goatee/sig 20:57, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well if it has to be all or none - and personally I don't know why you think that - and if we judge by whether or not the very few problems with a few of the movies is more or less than in the episodes, then we would have to pick to include all of the movies. However, since they are all official publications according to the creators and producers, we don't have to bother making such a decision. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 21:12, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, personally, this may be just me, I don't see the reason for including a few of the films and then ignoring others, when clearly none were truly bothering to fit in the main story. What I mean is, they should really be considered like the Dragon Ball movies, none of them clearly fit into continuity at all. Just little side stories of their own, and I know that certain elements of the original series obviously have to be incorpirated for any slight bit to make sense (Goku having Super Saiyan), but it's just like the DB movies. They don't have this problem of the continuity debate, because it's so clear that they're side stories, while DBZ doesn't recycle the main plot from the first few episodes over and over again. User:The Goatee/sig 21:23, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the DB movies that change character names and redo main events are not meant to agree with the plot, whereas the DBZ movies do fit into the plot. I also agree that the use of the same characters and references to events show that all of the DBZ movies do try and fit in the main story (you said the opposite, but you didn't back it up and you went on to talk about the DB movies not fitting because they are different, so I assume that was just a typo). Multiple references in the manga and anime to the DBZ movies are additional evidence that the creators feel the same way. I mean unless there is a quote about Toriyama saying the movies are fake... someone should bring that up for me if they have it on hand. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 21:40, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

I guess it was a typo on my part, apologies. Anyway, the only movie that was guaranteed by Toriyama was Bardock, mainly due to that one panel in the manga. I don't really see any other claims saying "Yes, Goku and his friends totally broke out of character and left the earth to Cell while they went to fight Broly" or anything else concerning the other films. What I mean is, just like the DB movies, the DBZ movies were not "meant" to be put into the series. It's obviously fine to make comparisons as to what recent events the films were inspired by, as obviously, Toei wouldn't want to make a Dragon Ball Z movie about say, a relative of Frieza, when Buu has been defeated. I'm just suggesting that while a movie could fit into the series with relatively little problems, doesn't mean it was intending that or should be. I hope this debate doesn't drag out the article at hand, I'll just sum up what I think:

The movies were not intended to fit in the series, so there shouldn't be such as hasstle over it, and stuff like continuity errors and such should be mentioned on a less important part of the article. The main point of it is to discuss the movie itself. User:The Goatee/sig 21:59, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that continuity might be better off separate in articles from contradictions for the movies that have any. However, the evidence strongly disagrees with your other notion, that the movies were not intended to fit into the series. Your desired quote saying "Yes this happened" is answered by the indisputable fact that Toriyama and company officially published the events taking place. The burden of proving otherwise therefore falls on the side of the argument which claims that the creators somehow didn't want what they created to exist. The way that most movies have an isolated conflict and resolution, rather than a conflict drawn out through the series, does not make the movies less valid (series like Star Trek, Full Metal Alchemist, Cowboy Bebop, and The Simpsons all do the same thing). -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:01, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

The problem is, I don't see anybody linking Toriyama and Toei's offical publications stating the movies perfectly exist within the anime series. If you can link me these, I'll gladly step aside and say I was wrong. I know the Star Trek movies exist in the real series, but most of them don't have glaring plot holes that completely rip apart the continuity and character development previously shown. These movies, (DB/Z/GT ones) are barely even movies, only clocking in around 40 odd minutes, only double the length of a normal episode. Star Trek films are a good two odd hours long, perfectly setting up where they're taking place. Sorry, I just don't see how anyone can look past the glaring plot holes that don't make sense when put together, such as Gohan being on Earth in Fusion Reborn, or how Android 13, 14, and 15 in in Super Android 13 exist, even though it is stated in the manga itself (trust me, I've read it), they those models were failures that were destroyed. It's stuff like this. Nobody would accept a Star Wars movie canon that had Luke Skywalker with an organic hand and Han Solo not in carbonite, with the 2nd Death Star complete set between episodes V and VI. I'm glad you agree the continuity thing should be moved someplace else, I just don't see how certain movies will be placed in the anime, considered to have actually happened in the anime itself, while others didn't. None of the movie villains are ever referred to in the anime, and the events in the movies do not have any consequences whatsoever on the anime story. At least from the transition from Cell to Buu, Goku had died, which effected a lot of the plot in the next saga. I don't want anyone to accuse anyone of being "wrong", I just would like to see some pictures of Toei confirming that these movies take place within the anime. If there was such proof, these continuity debates should not be nearly as discussed as they are. User:The Goatee/sig 23:21, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Here is a link to the official publication of a movie by Toriyama and Toei: Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn. Now it's your turn, please provide the link where they say that they didn't intend for this to exist (what a big mistake they must have made to spend so much time and money on accidentally letting this leak if what you're saying is true). Like the Star trek movies, most of the DBZ movies don't have glaring plot holes that completely rip apart the continuity and character development previously shown. Also, what the heck does length have to do with the creators opinions?? You are tearing your own arguments apart as you write them; movies don't count because they are too similar to episodes, which you think do count - what? Every single Star Trek movie is based around previous assumptions being proved wrong, which is what makes the conflict exist in the first place. Oh Spock isn't dead? I guess that movie isn't canon because there was something surprising. Borg are closer to Earth than previously thought? No, that's not true because they hadn't revealed it yet, that movie doesn't count either. The movie villains are absolutely referred to in the anime, many of them twice. To throw out Garlic Jr., you would have to throw out an entire season of anime, as well as the manga. Maybe you don't want the manga to count, but the community has decided that it does. Since the existence of the movies is very, very obvious evidence of the publishers intent to publish, a quote about them not intending the movies to count needs to be provided, not the other way around. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:48, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with 10X on one point that it is The Goatee's job to provide the statement that the movies don't count, rather than 10X's to find a statement that the movies do. Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 23:54, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

No, what I mean is, is that the Star Trek films take place after the original series. The original series ran from 1968 to 1969, the first movie was made in the 1970s, and set place after the original series. These DBZ "films" take place around when the series was made, difference. The reason I mentioned the length is not to dispute if they're canon or not, just something I'd thought to add to show that they really were not attempting to go for a huge, epic story, but just to churn out a film for some cash. Not needed, just a mention. Also, when did I say the movies didn't exist at all as actual prodoctions? I just say I find it glaring how some plot holes are shown, and I gave you some examples, but you just brushed them off, like the Android 13 thing. Please, I was never at all saying the movies don't exist entirely, of course they do, they're forms of media, I'm just saying that I don't see why people are trying so hard to try and place them into the series, when some of the plot holes stick out like a sore thumb. None of the villains are ever referred to in the anime itself, and that's one of the things. You'd think when Goku would try to convince Vegeta to fuse with the Potara (keep in mind, Vegeta didn't know that it was permenant) wouldn't you think Goku would make a subtle or non-subtle reference to Janemba, by saying "Come on Vegeta, we've already fused once!" or something like that. Also, just a side note, but did I scream at you and say your conversations we're falling apart? No, I didn't. Also, Bardock: The Father of Goku and The History of Trunks are canon, but they're specials, and they were specifically mentioned in the manga themselves, with The History of Trunks being an adaptation of a couple of panels set as a flashback. I really don't see how finding the movies not fitting in the anime makes me think the manga is non-canon, I don't see how you got to that point. The manga is the number 1 canon source.User:The Goatee/sig 07:40, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

PS. Here are the major plot holes I can remember from the top of my head.

Ok, so according to the Fusion Reborn article, it takes place between 258 and 259?

• First, while that explains Buu's absence, why is Gohan there, in his Great Saiyaman suit? I really doubt Elder Kai could break his ritual, because if he did, it'd break exactly how a ritual works. You can't have a coffee break inbetween.
• Why is Videl in the city?
• How did Mr. Satan magically cross the desert, get to a city, and then go to the desert again? Why would Mr. Satan leave the city when his whole goal when wandering the desert was to find shelter?
• Where's Bee?
• How is Gotenks there, when he's fighting Super Buu in the Time Chamber?
• Where is Piccolo? Piccolo was with Gotenks almost for the rest of the Buu arc when their fight in the Time Chamber began.

Those are the ones on the top of my head. If you can somehow rebuttal them, please do. I know you probably want to go more extreme in your words, but cannot, due to that breaking rules, I'd just appreciate it if we didn't resort to that. Thank you. User:The Goatee/sig 08:06, September 4, 2012 (UTC)