DBGT is Canon
remove the debate of canon or non canon.....its Canon wether u want it to be or not. akira toyrima...if it was non canon it would be like DBAF but its NOT....it wouldnt be apart of the video games but it is...AKira toyrima has nothin against it he aproved...about the manga its not aprt of but the tv Series it is SO give it up...stop trying to pretend it dosent exist or that its fake if it was fake akira toyrima would not have come in to do work on it from time to time....which is why its should be remved from the article.
- "Canon" doesn't meant to exist or not, but if it was or not created by the author.
How do you figure it's canon? DBGT now seems less canon than originally thought with the release of Dragon Ball Online and it was thought poorly of by many fans to begin with. One big reason I'd say that suggests it's not canon is the fact that Majin Buu fuses with Uub perminately, so Majin Buu doesn't really 'exist' anymore.. However in Dragon Ball Online, in the 790 Age Buu specifically exists because he creates 'Booby' and through Booby creates the Majin race.. This conflicts with Dragon Ball GT claiming that Buu fused with Uub in Age 789. Akira Toriyama seems to be working more closely with Dragon Ball Online than GT so I'd say that's pretty much a tell-tale sign of which Toriyama considers 'canon'.. But that's just my opinion. PS: Adding in two other cents, I don't in any way, shape, or form 'hate' Dragon Ball GT, I'm not saying I don't believe it's canon just because I hate it, I've watched it many times and enjoyed it for what it is.. But I think Dragon Ball GT judging by Toriyama's treatment of the subject, show, and all things involved about it that it is simply like the Dragon Ball Z movies, not meant to be 'canon', they're simply 'what if' stories, a little more Dragon Ball for us to enjoy but not part of the actual continuity. JadeTora 09:17, August 20, 2010 (UTC) Jade
- There are many reasons we consider DBGT to be canon (a decision essentially up to each person individually) on this site. The most important reason it is considered canon is that it was a major anime series which was developed by a group of writers which including Toriyama, who approved of all of the major plot. Dragon Ball Online is a fairly new video game, and in the past, Dragon Ball videos games have been far less reliable in terms of accuracy than the anime, both with respect to the manga. As for using an inconsistency between DBGT and Dragon Ball Online as an argument, it works just as easily in the other direction. The same is true of inconsistencies between some movies and the anime series, and in most cases we consider the non-anime source to be some sort of alternate timeline or whatnot. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 08:01, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
Toriyama has been more involved with the DBO Video Game than he was with DBGT, if that's your measure of canon, but obviously that's an extremely silly measure of canon. Toriyama also had a hand in almost every single one of the DB movies, including writing the entire plot for some, and doing all the character designs for others, but they are all considered universally non-canon. What makes GT non-canon isn't plot holes (although many of them are ignored on the official page), as those are normal for all DB series. What makes it non-canon for me is simply that it is not a serialized manga licensed by shounen jump and thus part of the print Dragon Ball franchise which the two anime only existed to mimmic. Now, that said, you people take this crap way too seriously. It's such a simple franchise, and it's full of plot holes and incosistencies anyway. It exists to be fun and explosive and silly, and if you found GT to be enjoyable, great! Consider it canon for you, and if you don't, then don't, but there will never be a consensus on this topic. Personally, my favorite thing in the DB franchise is the first two Broly movies (not counting the horrendous Bio-Broly) which is decidedly non-canon. 220.127.116.11 01:40, December 10, 2010 (UTC) naz
- You have some very interesting opinions that you have stated here, and you are entitled to them. However, for the purposes of this encyclopedic site, we provide only information which is affirmed by substantial evidence, which guides us to our conventions. I hope you can enjoy the site in any case. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:08, December 10, 2010 (UTC)
- False, but please sign your posts anyway. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 01:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
But it is a non canon
Dragon Ball GT was critizited by not just the fans but by other companies for thier childish fights and the goofy character designs (including trunks' character designs)thats why it was so short the ratings weren't as high as dragon ball or dragon ball Z Gohan fan101 23:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)gohanfan101Gohan fan101 23:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Just because it is critisized dosent make it non canon u need to understand that....that like saying i dont like pokemon dimond a pearl so that it i say its not canon it dosent work that way. DBGT is Canon an if it is non canon how come i dont see DBAF characters in games because thats non canoN, but DBGT is Canon....just because it wasent as good as Dbz in your opinion or opinion in others you cannot say its non cannon....it Simply is
The fact that Dragon Ball Kai removes most of what is anime-only filler will probably mean that Dragon Ball GT will be retconned out of existence. There should not be a section cover a debate over its canonocity, but there should be a section cover the plot holes and inconsistencies.
- To Everyone: Please do not remove sections from articles without consensus, with the exception of vandalism. Please keep a Neutral point of view when editing articles. Some believe GT is canon, others do not, and the article should reflect this. To voice your opinion on this matter, comment on the forum, do not change the articles. No matter how bad you think GT is, everyone is entitled to the truth. Finally, please Sign your posts, or your comments will most likely be ignored. Thank you for your cooperation. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
if you have facts and evidence that gt is or is not canon then we have the right to debate it.if we can prove that gt is or is not canon though facts then that section can be removed.as for my point is that gt is canon because some people say its because of the plot holes but i can explain alot of the plotholes.second of all people say its because there is no manga well i dont even get that one because why is the manga so important.thats like saying that becuase pan doesent go super saiyan.its just something they didnt want to do.people say akaira toryamai didnt make it so its not canon:untrue,he came up with the BASE plot and he desighned super saiyan 4 and how pan would look.so although he didnt do as much of the work as he did on z or the origanal seris he still helped make it.even though i did that im not going to delete the section because we are not gonna do that until someone wins the agruement.feel free to argue with me all you want because i want that BRING IT ON!until then THE SECTION STAYS AND REMOVE THE PART WHERE IT SAYS IT WASENT WRITTEN BY AKAIRA TORYAMAI BECAUSE HE DID COME UP WITH THE BASE PLOT!Wowfunny251andwowfunneyanderasa 15:58, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Just because characters apear in games doesn't make it Canon, movie villains all apear in the games, but the movies are not considered canon. also while toriyama did draw the super saiyan 4 design he did little else with GT. And Wowfunny251andwowfunneyanderasa, 'the reason the manga is important is because THAT was the ORIGINAL story, the one that toriyama started, he wrote completely. the Anime is an adaption, the manga is ALWAYS important 18.104.22.168 02:48, March 19, 2010 (UTC)'
"Unlike the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, series creator Akira Toriyama had only minor involvement in the show's early stages, setting forth the initial premise of the series, as well as creating designs for most of the villains and main characters , including newcomer Giru.". Seems like you are mistaken 22.214.171.124 19:28, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
I would say GT is canon....to the anime. GT can't be canon to the manga or the original story since it wasn't created by the original creator, so it can't be canon to the original story. But to say it is not canon to the anime, that makes no sense. It exist in the anime, therefore it's canon in the animated series. Fillers are also canon to the anime since it appears in the anime, but they are not canon to the manga since they don't exist in the manga. YoungTopGunn 15:56, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
This section needs to continue to be tweaked. Much of the material in this section is just an angry fan pointing out things he/she doesn't like, rather than the critical reception of the series. There need to be authorities on the matter, polls, or websites (like IGN) referenced for any of this to be valid. Unlike other articles, which can be checked by watching/reading over events, a reception section is useless without references. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 09:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
- If there aren't any references made for the reception section, or reasonable explanations for why I shouldn't, I plan on deleting the marked () statements in a few days. Just figured I'd post my intent in the discussion first, so no one is surprised later. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Should it be noted that no one in the series with the exception of Goku, and later vegeta for ss4, goes beyong ss1? No one to my knowleged goes ss2 as that has lightning and spikier hair with is not seen anywhere in the entire series.
- Things that don't happen usually aren't specifically included in articles. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 08:39, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
Gohan and Vegeta also went SS2. It's obvious. They didn't always animate the bio-electricity, but other sources and evidence in the anime secures it. Remember Majin Vegeta had lightning in his aura? and Teen Gohan against Cell? Goku wasn't even the first to become a SS2 so your point is very flawed anyway. (Banan14kab 03:05, March 2, 2010 (UTC))
Goku did power up as a Super Saiyan 2 for a few seconds when he fought General Rilldo to repel an attack. As for Gohan and Vegeta there was no visual or verbal indication they were Super Saiyan 2. It is logical, but there is no evidence. Goku was easy to tell because of the lightning aura and spikier hair but Gohan and Vegeta never had those traits.Super Saiyan Historian 07:17, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Another sort of plot hole in GT is,
When at the end of the series, and beginning of the Goku's Legacy film, where Pan is grown up, and all the Z fighters are dead, Vegeta is amongst them. Saiyans are said to live up to 1,000 years, and unless Vageta died of a disease or something, he should still be alive.
Could that be another reason why people consider GT to be non-canon? 126.96.36.199 23:30, June 26, 2011 (UTC)
- Or maybe he self-destructed to save the world from some threat? -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:42, January 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Please Read This Why Dont You Read The Aticle Entitiled "Saiyan" It Says That Saiyans Live Up To 125 Years 188.8.131.52 01:50, July 6, 2010 (UTC) Alienrun 7:50 7/5/2010
- Okay I can't remember where I heard it but I was positive that I heard on Dragon Ball Z that Saiyans live up to 1,000 years. I'm aware that I was wrong about what I heard. And no, I'm not confusing this with the story of them maintaining their youthful appearance. 184.108.40.206 23:30, June 26, 2011 (UTC)
GT inconsistencies: I've watched all the DVDs from DB all the way through to the end of GT(I have no life, I know). Anyway, in regards to inconsistencies over dragonball GT and the rest of the series. In no less then 4 occasions, Goku gets some or most of his spiky hair cut off due to an enemy wielding a weapon of some type, but his hair always returns to normal by the next episode/movie/appearance. So i would say that the issue about hair not changing is that it stays in the same style for their entire lives. So vegeta's hair naturally grew out into it's infamous shape, but he can easily cut it but it'll still grow back to it's original length. As well, in regards to Pilaf's return. According to Funimation (i know it's slightly flakey), Dende wished everyone on earth "except the most evil ones" back to life. So Pilaf was evil, yes we can all agree, but he certainly wasn't the _most_ evil being on the planet. His goal was to be worshipped and to rule over the world, some of the more evil beings wanted death, destruction and decay.
With the Black Star Dragonballs, they were hiding in the lookout, in dragonball Pilaf was shown to be able to disguise the dragonballs from the dragon radar in two occasions. Ingestion by King Piccolo also showed that they could hide the RADAR readings. So one can easily assume the mausoleum that Kami placed the balls in was designed to HIDE the balls forever. Pilaf himself stated it took a lot of research to figure out where they were which suggests that his own radar was useless. But there is a NEW inconsistency that I'd like to add. In dragonball, Korin explains that noone can reach the lookout unless the guardian lets them. No rocket can reach that high, no plane has enough fuel, noone who climbed up and was unwelcome saw the lookout. Pilaf and the rest should not have been able to reach the lookout at all unless Dende let them in.(Buu was an exception obviously, he was much stronger then Dende so would have been able to shakeoff anything that Dende would use to protect the lookout, Pilaf was nowhere near that powerful. - 220.127.116.11 03:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- For one, Goku and Uub were training so Dende was focused on them. Another thing is if characters could fly up to the Lookout and ships can go into space, than Pilaf would have no trouble getting up there. Super Saiyan Historian 20:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
King Kai's explanation of Saiyan history was that the Saiyans and Tuffles shared the Planet Vegeta, not the Saiyans invading the Tuffles' planet. That would have been impossible anyway because the Saiyans did not possess the technology to travel between planets until after they destroyed the Tuffles. This inconsistency is ignored on this wiki and it shouldn't be. That was filler. No where stated in the manga and not in Dragon Ball Kai either. Its possible that GT can be right that the Saiyans migrated to Planet Tuffle and lived on the outskirts for several years. The Saiyans waged war against the Tuffles. After years of fighting, the tide turned and the moon emerged in the skyline. The Saiyans would secure an easy victory from there. Super Saiyan Historian 20:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
People....seriously....these little things in GT do not matter.This is way too picke.GT is still a good show.Its not like they messed everything up.most of the little plot holes can be explained anyway.Akaira toryamai did do GT's BASE plot.GT is canon regardless of inconsistencies that can be explained anyway...18.104.22.168 20:28, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
- It's not canon anywhere, its full of plot holes and was not made by Akira Toriyama. I guess fan fiction is canon too? That wasn't made by AT 22.214.171.124 19:32, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm just going to go over one plothole that everyone seems to think is 'proof' that it isn't canon. That is, Gohan wasn't 'mystic'. Mystic brings you up to your maximum power and potential. That is, he could never become any stronger, no matter how hard he trained. Remember the seven year gap between Cell and Boo? He got weaker. Now we have a ten year gap, and he gets even weaker, thus, not at his maximum power and potential, THUS, he would not be 'mystic'. Also? Fix the grammar.
You just contradicted yourself. You said that "mystic" brings you to you maximum power and potential and that he can't become and stronger. But your reason for why it's a plot hole in GT when he isn't "mystic" is that he got weaker again? That's not a plot hole. In fact, that's one of the things that makes the most sense about GT. Getting weaker, Gohan no longer had his mystic form and was forced to use the SS transformations once again. I would also challenge your view of who "everyone" is that you think also believes this. I think you need to check through facts and explanations a little closer. Dragon Ball Z GT Goku 17:55, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Also, Gohan's "full potential" had been unlocked previously by Guru, but he obviously became stronger after that. I think a lot of people never consider that Gohan's potential likely increases over time.-- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:25, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
Gohan is seen going super saiyan in Wrath Of The Dragon which took place after the Buu Saga. The "mystic" is the same effect as Guru's unlock. People think that just because Elder Kai used Gohan's transformation ability to become mystic he can't become super saiyan not true. Not true, watch Wrath of the Dragon again. Gohan was mystic. He NEVER transformed into a Super Saiyan. I own the movie. Super Saiyan Historian 20:58, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Also, it was never specifically stated that Gohan could never go Super Saiyan again. It's possible that the "Mystic form" could have simply just been a power boost and not a transformation so he could have still had the ability. 126.96.36.199 18:23, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
Gohan asked Old Kai how to activate mystic and he said, just go SSJ. And we can clearly see he couldn't go SSJ. Mystic was drawn by magic, so for Gohan not having anymore for no reason really makes no sense. Also, what Guru did and what Old Kai did wasn't the same. Old Kai said only he had the ability to draw out anyone full potential, and beyond the normal limits. When goku said, that's it? We see that everday. Old Kai said, no, BEYOND the normal limits. So all Guru did was unlocked Gohan's full potential at that time, not go beyond. YoungTopGunn 16:08, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
Though Toriyama did not personally write GT, he did strictly oversee its production. This was the same process that was used during the production of the anime series Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Characters and events from GT have also been included in more recent Dragon Ball video games. With regards to inconsistencies, GT in fact has the least inconsistencies of all three anime series, making it difficult to cite the few that exist as reason for the series to be set aside as non-canon.
Who did wrote this? How can it have only "few" inconsistencies? Or Akira having "strictly" oversee its production?
Ilovefoxes 10:24, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
- It's been revised by many, many users. A full list can be found in the history. See our list of inconsistencies page for details on inconsistency. Toriyama approved all of the plot of GT, which would include things like the existence of the Black Star Dragon Balls that people so often complain about. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:42, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
Many do not consider it canon, many do.
I belong to the group that doesn't think its canon. I don't need to say why, every reason I have was already stated above. What I'm here to say is that the GT page doesn't need anymore information about why we think its non canon. Everyone knows its a hot topic, but since the page already acknowledged that many fans consider it non canon no further information is necessary. Time is man made, so it's always 4:20 02:59, January 8, 2011 (UTC)Tokeupdude
Canon to the anime, but not the manga
I personally do not think it's considered Canon to the source material (and I think this should be noted, because that's how most encyclopedias work and it's not hard to mention that something is not canon to the source material even American Comic books do this in separating their animated universe from their source material). I think I read that it is considered an alternate future to Dragon Ball Z from TOEI so technically it is fair to say that it Canon to the cartoon, but not the manga as it was Toei's vision of the Dragon Ball GT. As for Toriyama's involvement. Well he delt mainly with a few character designs and less so on the story. In an article for Dragon Ball Online it states that it's (the game) based on the Manga universe so it actually does appear that GT is not a continuation of Dragon Ball Z in terms of the Manga, but rather just a continuation of Dragon Ball Z the Anime. Toriyama was not directly involved with GT,but Toriyama did give permission to do a third series.
- Please sign all posts. Additionally, you should read out MoS, where we lay out the levels of canon as observed on the site. Finally, your information about Toei and Toriyama is not in line with information expressed by those parties, although if you present an official source we can certainly take a look. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:49, March 1, 2011 (UTC)
- 1000% agreed.How can anyone possibly tell you Dbgt is non canon to the anime when it even shows clips and flashbacks from db and dbz anime and refernces back to it that is completely illogical.It is a matter of fact GT is canon to the anime but NOT the manga.You can NOT say GT is non canon to all of Db just because it wasnt in the manga(Something it is not even apart of that is border line insanity) anyone with common sence knows that.Lssj4 19:02, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
Dragonball GT is canon to the anime
YoungTopGunn hit the nail right on the head, each medium has its own canonicity. GT is obviously a canon contituation to the anime, the same as DBZ was to Dragonball. Whereas none of the anime only stuff is canon to the manga. Sure GT has plot holes when compared to Dragonball Z, but so does Dragonball when compared to Z, and it would be pretty ridiculous to pretend Dragonball isn't canon, and continue to support your original argument because DB and DBZ are simply known collectively as Dragonball in the manga.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of GTs actualy quality, the fact of the matter is it's still canon to the anime, and apparently to most DBZ video games too. And for what it's worth I think GT was a pretty decent anime in its own right. Sure it is terrible when compared to Dragonball and Dragonball Z but if looked at seperately it is actually a pretty mediocre anime. 188.8.131.52 05:45, July 28, 2011 (UTC)
Who wrote GT?
The writer of GT was named once, but I cannot remember his name. Am I wrong, or was it that one guy who wrote it? Think if I went Super Saiyan my goatee would grow? 21:39, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
- No one knows who you mean, obviously, but in any case there was definitely a team working on plot, storyboards, scripts, etc. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 21:51, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
- I remember it being mentioned on a blog on this wiki, about GT. I was looking at some videos on GT, and I remember a confrence where they showed Akira Toryiama's character designs for the series, showing he had some involvment, (Yeah, he designed Vegeta with his infamous moustache.) And some other concept arts, but I can't remember the video. If I find it, I will post a link. Think if I went Super Saiyan my goatee would grow? 21:57, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
Why is ice maker>cell and frieza?
Plus, how did Goku kill Cell by blowing off his torso while in the anime (and manga) he survived that, and he also killed Frieza by chopping his body in half while Freiza survived being chopped into multiple pieces in Z. At the end they get frozen by an ice maker machine wt*frick*, they can't dodge snow now? GT has 3 chromosomes.
Also, I thought once you have died, and you died again while dead, you are gone forever and nowhere. =/ not just immortal. and why is it that they have their bodies? again, i thought when you die, only specially picked people get to keep their bodies. everyone else is just a puff ball.
Don't delete this because you can't prove it wrong kids. Changed my mildly adult langauge, sorry it offended you.184.108.40.206 02:03, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
- We don't mind that you're a kid, most people on the site probably are too. As far as the ice, is was special hell-ice that was intended to trap dead people, so it wouldn't make sense if they weren't stopped by it. Goku didn't kill Cell or Frieza in GT, you may have misunderstood the episode. Goku is much more powerful than either of them are (see Dragon Ball Z for details), and he happens to be much faster too by GT. Hell works differently than heaven, you can find out how this works by watching Z all the way through. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 03:04, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
Um, the machine didn't only freeze dead people. And what is even more inconsistent is the fact they couldn't dodge falling snow :/. And yeah Goku killed them, they explained they came back because they were already dead, but iirc if you die when your dead in Dragon Ball you disappear, they didn't say anything about a special Hell rule. And no base Goku would never ever surpass SS2 level, not even likely he'd surpass any Super Saiyan, he couldn't lift 40 sucking tons! Toei has been known for making nonsensical filler, such as saiyan Vegeta easily destroying a planet, all the movies, pretty much every inconsistency within the Dragon Ball Z anime, Goku and Pikkon easily defeating Cell RIGHT AFTER the Cell saga. If Goku could become 10x stronger than Cell by just training a tiny bit longer in the ROSAT then he would have, Akira never had that ridiculous story telling. GT, anime filler, it is best just to ignore, since not only is it inconsistent with the manga it is inconsistent with itself.220.127.116.11 21:46, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
- They explain the ice very thoroughly in the episode, and why it works on them but not Goku. It could not possibly be inconsistent since this technique only comes up during the one fight. As for hell/death, they don't explain the rule, exactly, I'm glad you figured it out. Your base Goku talk is speculation as Goku's child form's power was drastically changing due to the lack of stamina. Further, we have seen other human and saiyan characters in DBZ and DBGT surpass SS2 without transforming, both of which were weaker than Goku. Vegeta destroying a planet makes perfect sense, and is not in GT, so doesn't need mentioning on this talk page. When characters are dead their stamina is very different than when they are alive, this is explained in the latest third of DBZ. Goku states that he never planned to beat Cell, it was his intention for Gohan to do it all along. Please let me know if you have any other questions about DB, DBZ, or GT, preferably on the correct talk pages.
- Your opinion about not personally liking filler and GT is fine, but please understand that it is your own, and cannot and will not be forced on others. Everyone has the right to make up their own mind about what to "ignore," and as an editor here I ensure that every article is written with a neutral point of view. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 23:54, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
That may be my opinion that i don't like anime filler or GT, but it is not an opinion however that they are both incredibly inconsistant and illogical to the Dragon Ball continuity. —This unsigned comment was made by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
- Please follow the site polices when editing. If you do things like fill your posts with profanity, edit comments that have already been replied to, and put in new comments stuck in the middle of other people's old comments, it is impossible for readers to follow the conversation and give their own input. Thank you. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 02:10, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
I didn't realize that was all your post, anyway Ok so its magic ice from a magic ice machine, thats pretty silly but ok, still there was no mention of the ice being super speed, so why Cell and Frieza couldn't avoid it I'll probably just leave to heavy PIS, which GT makes heavy use of. And no you don't get it, they never said anything about a special hell rule in GT, they only stated that because they were dead they could not die again, that is inconsistent as they weren't reffering to a special hell rule, just the fact they were dead. If Goku had lack of stamina, what is saying he is multiplying his levels left and right? And no, no human or saiyan has even been shown to be above a Super Saiyan 2, let alone a Super Saiyan, unless you consider Tenshinhan pushing Cell back anything that special, if not correct me but I have never ever seen this and neither has anyone on the Daizenshuu boards, Ultimate Gohan doesn't count as having his potential unlocked only replaced the Super Saiyan transformations, and he was legions above Goku and all the other base form saiyans. No Vegeta destroying a planet does not make perfect sense given how easily he did it, at that time characters still needed to charge their attacks greatly to destroy such objects, I can probably prove this through an extensive analyzation but I won't, it is implied when Vegeta charges an attack for a while to attempt to destroy Earth, not just fire a quick blast Goku would never see coming. Goku said that, however he still fought Cell full force, otherwise he wouldn't have used IT Kamehameha, and was losing. Pretty sure he even stated he wasn't holding back. He could have gone on but he wasn't planning on it, he never held back, just wasn't planning on being the one to finish him, it could have happened however. Please let me know if you want me to correct you on anything else related to Dragon Ball kthxbai 22.214.171.124 02:15, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
- It's other world ice from an other world ice machine, this is no more outlandish than any number of other world traits seen in the manga. Again, it's fine that you don't like DBGT, but this isn't an inconsistency, and your opinion would be better suited for a forum or blog, either of which you can do here. As for the hell death issue, you're just making assumptions. It can't be breaking a rule since none exists. That sentence of multiplying levels is a little ambiguous, could you be specific? Two things about the next thing you say: first, Gohan's ultimate form did not replace his Super Saiyan forms, this is a well-known fact; second, I haven't been to any Daizenshuu boards recently, but I am positive they would be upset with you for saying that they've never heard of Uub. He's from the end of DBZ, continues through DBGT, and it quite obviously stronger than SS3 Gotenks. The Vegeta thing makes sense unless you have some quotes about the consistency of that planet versus that of Earth's, which doesn't exist, so you're just speculating that all planets are the same, which they are not. Whether or not Goku fought at full force during the fight has nothing to do with his intentions while training since he made the decision even before that. The last comment is just rude, especially since you're just regurgitating your speculation and opinions in response to facts that disprove your claims. It's fine if you came to the talk page looking for answers, but please remain civil while discussing things with others. Keep in mind that this site is not the work of any individual like other Dragon Ball sites, but rather the best of countless contributions by thousands of editors.
- With these things in mind I'd ask again that if you just want to hate on DBGT and talk about feelings and opinions and speculation, make a forum or blog, as talk pages are just for article formatting. Nothing except constructive suggestions about some specific part of this article belong here. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 02:49, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I see there is a feud going on here. I do not really understand what is going on but as for 126.96.36.199 and 188.8.131.52, you need to stop harassing and being disrespectful (Especially to an administrator). You can lose your editing privileges, and your computer can remain in a permanent block on your behalf. There are no opinions allowed on this site (Except for forums and blogs). But there is no need to waste the wiki's time with your choice of words and so forth. Ripto22475 00:15, September 17, 2011 (UTC)
Should I put these in the article?
Hi all. I was just wondering if anyone thinks these should go in the article when referring to the canon debate. They, along with various other sources, state that Toriyama was a writer of GT, specifically the only one prominent enough for an international credit. Thanks in advance for your opinions.-- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:31, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I think the images would be good enough to go into the article, after cropping the black bars. It would have some evidence to show what the text is saying. :)21:35, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
That picture would be a good addition, also it would prove that GT is canon which is a bonus. SSJ4 Vegito Is A Secret Spy 21:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
Wow! Now I remember! Its been a while since I last seen GT! But this is amazing. I guess he really did write GT. I guess this should make GT cannon then. Since he is known as the Author in the credits. Yeah I agree put it in the article this should be evidence. This should settle the cannon debate. EntertainmentFan14 21:46, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with you. I went ahead an added it. Jeangabin666 22:06, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
The Canon Debate-Doesn't seem resolved
I've been following the canon debate very closely regarding GT. This wiki seems to have concluded that GT is canon, but I've seen little evidence to corroborate this. Rather than shout about the low quality of GT as has been done countless times before by others here, I'd like to actually provide some objective justification for my suspiscions.
There has been an old translation of a Toriyama interview from Daizenshuu #7 that has been floating around.
Here is a link I've found to a poster who claims to have done a slightly better translation (it is the most accurate one I can find):
If anyone wants further confirmation of the existence/content of this interview, it can be found in Daizenshuu 7, specifically Shenlong Times Issue #7, which is near the end of the book (online translations of it haven't been put up by Kazentai yet). They do have the table of contents, in which Shenlong Times 7 can be seen:
As for the actual text of the interview (which has been copy-pasta'd online many times), here are the GT-relevant bits that can be drawn from it-I am taking these from the most accurate translation I can find, linked above:
First, about Dragon Ball GT
Interviewer: I'm sorry to bother you when you're so busy today... Toriyama: I'm not busy at all. I've finished my work on the Dragon Ball Daizenshuu for now, so I'm not working anymore (laugh). Interviewer: Then you must be getting a nice rest. Toriyama: Well, after I take my son to school each morning, I finally get to sleep. Right now, I'm building a new work area. So when I think about plans for it, I eventually end up pulling an all-nighter. I'm having more all-nighters than I had during weekly serialization (laugh). Interviewer: The new anime series is Dragon Ball GT, but how involved in it are you? Toriyama: I'm only a little involved. I checked the stories given by Toei Animation, and I gave a little advice. After that, I just drew a few characters and illustrations. But it's fun! It's a feeling of "Aah, so this was a possibility." Everyone at Toei Animation has really racked their brains. I really appreciate it. Wow, Gokuu turning little again. With that story, I could continue the manga serialization again... or so I say, but I actually don't have the will to draw it at all (laugh). Interviewer: Then, Toriyama-sensei would recommend GT! Toriyama: Yes! I would recommend it. As a normal viewer, I also enjoy it.
The next bit of evidence I'd like to offer comes from the GT Dragon Box, for which Toriyama himself wrote an introduction. Kazentai provides a pretty comprehensive synopsis of what is in the box, along with a photo shot of Toriyam's intro (in japanese) and a solid translation, which I will now copy and paste along with a link to the full page (where the image and text can be found).
""My sincerest gratitude to all those who bought this DragonBall GT DVD box. Being a lazy bum by nature, I was absurdly happy when I managed to safely finish up DragonBall's serialization, and finally be released from Deadline Hell. The TV anime people wanted to continue for just a little bit more, but I [just couldn't do] any more than that…And so, I left the DragonBall anime completely up to the anime staff, story and all. That was "DragonBall GT".
In car lingo, GT means "Gran Turismo": a fast, high-powered car, in other words. But in this case, I had GT mean "Grand Touring", a great journey, since the scenario was that they'd be running around the universe.
For GT, all I did was just come up with the title, design the initial main cast and some of the machines, and also do a few images. However, I was able to rest easy handing things over to the excellent staff, who had continued on DragonBall for all this time. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is amazingly skilled, and mastered the peculiarities of my pictures in no time at all, to the point where there were even times when I couldn't tell whether I had drawn a certain character design, or if he had. For instance, one of Nakatsuru-kun's designs is "Super Saiyan 4", which appears in GT, and the picture above is a portrait that I drew looking off it. Did I draw it well?
DragonBall GT is a grand side-story of the original DragonBall, and it'll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together." - Toriyama Akira"
This statements seems to go well with his earlier remarks in Shenlong Times 7, and they seem to shed some light on the nature of GT's canonicity (I too view it as a side story/alternate universe, but we can save this more subjective discussion for another time).
Just a few more points to conclude this long post:
-The wiki states the following: "Akira Toriyama is credited as a writer of GT, and he strictly oversaw its production"
This seems to directly contradict Toriyama's word on the issue. Everything he has said regarding GT (in both Shenlong Times 7 and on the GT Dragon Box) implies that he was far from a "strict" overseer-in fact, he seems to quite consistently play up his laziness and unwilliness to keep writing, and notes multiple times about his relief in being able to leave nearly ALL of the work to the anime staff. He also does not indicate that he wrote any of GT, only taking credit for the title, a few images, and the initial designs of the main cast.
If he was as heavily involved as this wiki claims, where is the substantiation from Toriyama himself? Why does he not claim this?
-Toriyama has not disowned GT, and has in fact expressed positive feelings towards the series.
-The wiki goes on to say this: "some fans do not consider GT canon, most often claiming incorrectly that the series was not directly written by Toriyama."
This seems somewhat unfair, as those fans would appear to have a point. Toriyama quite clearly stated in the Dragonbox intro and in Shenlong Times 7 that he was minimally involved in the series, leaving GT almost completely up to the anime staff. I see no evidence that the series was, in fact, clearly written by him. The ending credits could just as easily be meant to credit him as the nominal "author" of dragonball (being an originator of the series), as opposed to the main writer (which he quite clearly states he is not).
-Regarding GT's inconsistencies, the wiki says: "However, GT has the least inconsistencies of all three anime series, making it difficult to cite the few that exist as a reason for the series to be set aside as non-canon."
As a critic of GT myself, I will say this: when we talk about the inconistencies of GT, we are not talking about simple animation errors (which seem to compose the vast majority of the listed inconsistencies there). We're talking about odd and inconsistent power levels, omission of certain forms/characters (ex: ssj2/mystic gohan, gotenks, etc), the appearance of clearly non-canon characters (ex: cooler), and a host of other things.
I think that, for the sake of fairness, this should be clarified, as the anti-GT position here has been far too simplified. This can be saved for another debate, if you wish.
For now, however, I would simply like to call for a clarification of this article to include some of the information I've listed here regarding Toriyama's involvement. I do not think they can continue to be omitted without compromising the integrity of the article/website, which right now simply does not seem to be telling the whole story.
Athlone McGinnis 18:50, February 21, 2012 (UTC)Athlone
- Good! Just to point that "side story" does not mean "alternate universe", and also that Akira not coming up with the original GT idea does not mean "not canon"; anime-only is more appropriate. The rights for a manga or another creation does not belong exclusively to its main author. Toriyama's editors made choice for the manga before GT came out; like the introduction of 18 and 17 to replace 20 and 19 or choosing main villain's appearance (Toriyama drew several sketch for Cell and the character's definitive design was chosen by the editor, same things happened to Mr. Popo and Buu), yet all this are still considered "canon". 20:52, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
- I don't consider GT to be canon to the anime either, but this is more of a subjective point, I suppose. I'm going to attempt to explain my views on the whole canon debate below in response to 10xKamehameha. Athlone McGinnis 23:55, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
"This wiki seems to have concluded that GT is canon," I'm going to stop you right there and ask that you read the Manual of Style. This will show you that your conclusion is not compatible will our site's stance. After that, check out our list of inconsistencies page, which will explain the true comment about having the least inconsistencies (this is actually linked in that section of the article, too, so that readers won't have to speculate as to the meaning). As for what the word canon means, I don't think you're going to find a definition (that is, a definition from a dictionary, not Wikipedia, not a fan site) that excludes works for which the author is the the individual whose canon you are examining. When you find that, your next task will be to explain why this selective definition, in which amount of work supersedes an official title, doesn't allow parodies like Neko Majin and Dragon Ball SD, both written by Toriyama. If you check Webster, you'll find two possible definitions: "the authentic works of a writer", which will include non-Dragon Ball universe works like the unrelated one-shot Kintoki; and "a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works", which is certainly ambiguous enough to allow all of the video games, movies, etc.
Instead of combining the two possible definitions of canon, only counting the overlap as acceptable, and then selectively removing some things you don't like from that group, I suggest you take the encyclopedic route and just say what you're trying to say. Instead of declaring things "non-canon", just say they weren't in the manga. Speaking of encyclopedic, keep in mind that original research (OR) is not allowed as a source in articles. This means that while your above work makes for a discussion point, it in no way overturns evidence from the credits of the official series. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:33, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
- When talking about "canon" in my prior post, I was referring to what seemed like a very common fan definition that prioritized proximity to the source material (the manga) and relation to the original author (Toriyama). These appeared to be the main sticking points for those who continue to insist that GT is not "canon", so it appeared a safe starting point. That being said, you are correct to point out that this definition is not official or comprehensive. I'll attempt to find a more effective solution. The most efficient way to resolve the debate, in my eyes, is to eliminate links between the different forms of media (movies, GT, dragonball manga, z anime, games, etc). Each one must merely be considered canon to itself, not necessarily to everything else.
- Going by this standard, The manga is canon to itself. The DB/Z anime is not canon to the manga, the games, or GT, but to itself. GT and the movies are not canon to each other or to other forms, but merely to themselves. The games follow the same paradigm. In short, each form creates its own "universe", so to speak, existing within the wider dragonball franchise. The Dragonball manga is one universe. The anime is another. GT is another, and so on so forth. This, I find, is the only way to resolve the discrepancies and inconsistencies between the different portions of the dragonball franchise, and allow them all to coexist. Of course, it is all theoretical.
- As for my sources, I could use some elaboration there. I understand that the whole canon debate need not be made part of the article given its subjectivity, but I have provided a legitimate and official source (specifically, the GT dragonbox, which had already been cited within the article for the drawing of SSJ4) that seems to contradict a couple of points already made in the article. Specifically, the points regarding Toriyama's "strict oversight" of GT and "direct writing" of the script are directly contradicted by official sources written by Toriyama himself. Is that not worth looking into? Athlone McGinnis 23:55, February 21, 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad we agree that the idea of canon as it is commonly used by fans is fictitious and likely a popular misconception or distortion of the actual meaning. As such, I hope you realize that we can't refer to it on an encyclopedic web site like this one (although it's fine to chat about). As far as declaring something "canon to itself", that seems like a literally acceptable interpretation of the second applicable definition of canon as copied above, but one which makes its own use, for example "canon to the manga", redundant. It is more useful and less ambiguous to say "manga" alone. Take for instance the character Pikkon. Someone might say (1) Pikkon is not canon, (2) Pikkon is not canon to the manga, or (3) Pikkon is not in the manga. Here, (1) is not well-defined, (2) is ambiguous, and (3) is true. It's clear that (3) is not only the best choice, but the only one that can be used with confidence on an encyclopedia.
Having established that using the word canon as in "canon to the manga" really isn't useful, nor is the placement of a common fan misinterpretation on an encyclopedia acceptable, is is prudent to look at the use of canon that you haven't brought up. That is, a use of the second actual definition in reference to Dragon Ball media. This is the only correct way that the term canon can be used, and it is the basis for the system presented in our Manual of Style (have you read this document yet?).
As for breaking up the series into separate universes, this is not something suggested by any of the media, with the exceptions of things like what-if scenarios in video games. Quite the contrary, games and movies assume the existence of things like anime events even though they may not occur in those games and movies. Even more rousing, the manga makes reference to anime events such as the existence of Garlic Jr.
What I mean by "original research" not superseding official sources is that while it can be directly observed that Toriyama is credited as the author of GT, it is only speculation to take a fan-translated statement by a modest individual like Toriyama and from it infer that GT is somehow not related to Dragon Ball. Rather, we make no inferences or speculation, and instead list the facts, leaving each reader to make decisions about what is or isn't official to himself.
The only legitimate point left to be addressed is what seems like the goal of the incorrect definition of canon, which is to further the opinion of some fans that the manga is more official, truer, or better than the rest of the material. While those terms are subjective, let's examine the objective versions, keeping in mind our purely encyclopedic viewpoint. Is a manga publication more published or widespread than an anime or video game? No, it's probably more obscure. Is a manga the only thing written and endorsed by Toriyama, and would Toriyama support this viewpoint that only his and only the single earliest creation should be viewed as Dragon Ball material? No, Toriyama worked on the anime and many movies, and he has been quoted as being happy about fans enjoying non-manga material. Is the manga of a higher quality than the rest? Maybe or maybe not, but it's not our place to make this call, or to subsequently exclude information based on a yes/no decision regarding this. Ultimately, we are the Dragon Ball Wiki, not the "Dragon Ball-Toriyama-No Parodies-Wiki", and we host all official Dragon Ball info. If you're looking for a site that only has info about that one manga, you might consider creating one for that purpose (there probably already is one, in fact). -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 13:19, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
- Ug, sorry for the long post. See also: User:10X_Kamehameha/Canon. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 13:25, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
If it isn't created by the original creator then it isn't canon. Simple as that. I find it hilarious that you people consider this canon. You don't have to remove GT obviously. The way to do this is putting a non-canon category on the page like the OP wikia does for all of the characters and other non-canon stuff. SeaTerror 18:53, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
- I started a new tab for this since it's unrelated to the above topic. And by that I mean your comment shows that you didn't read either side of the last discussion : / This is fine, but just a separate beast really. Check out the above points and you'll see that Toriyama is in fact the author of GT, your use of the word canon isn't based on a real definition, we don't consider GT canon in the way that you say we do, and non-canon is a redundant term with no place anywhere. You'll also find some very legitimate points about the fact-based version of your side of the debate by Athlone McGinnis. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:49, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
Reason for edit
I am writing here to explain my most recent edit.
The claim regarding Toriyama's strict oversight of GT is unfounded, and contradicted by the very source that the article seems to rely on.
In the second paragraph of the section entitled "Toriyama's involvement in GT and Canon debate", the following is said of Toriyama's involvement in GT:
"He drew a rough design for the GT logo, he designed the GT appearance of the series main cast, and he designed the appearances of Giru and the GT spaceship used in the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga. He also drew at least three color pictures of Goku, Pan, and Trunks adventuring on various planets (Monmaasu, Rudeeze, and an area in Hell)."
This is all confirmed primarily by the Dragonbox, as well as in interviews with Toriyama (Shenlong Times 7), but there is simply no citation for the claim that strict oversight made in the article. In fact, this is specifically contradicted by the Dragonbox (a source from which the aforementioned information and the illustration of SSJ4 in this article are drawn) along with other interviews with Toriyama, and is not confirmed by any other source.
It is my opinion that this claim should remain absent from the article until such time as confirmation of Toriyama's strict involvement can be ascertained and cited properly. As of now, it is conjecture. Athlone McGinnis 18:02, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
- I have not vanadalized this article and I have given legitimate reasons for my edits. I would like an explantion for jeangabin666's continued reverts. Athlone McGinnis 18:13, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
The quote is correct as written, with the possible exception of the word "strictly." It is a subjective term so its use is always debatable. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 18:31, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Can you please point me to the source that confirms Toriyama's "oversight" of GT (enough so to clearly override his own first person rebuttal of that notion)? His own words contradict this statement (he quite explicity states that he had no role in the anime story), so I'm very interested in knowing where the opposition to my edits is coming from. Athlone McGinnis 18:36, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
It's all covered in the discussion earlier on this page. It had to due with official credits being acceptable as a source on a wiki, while original research and dubious fan translations are not. I won't bore anyone with repeating the statements, but they can be found above and reread if desired. Jeangabin666 may have other reasons, you'll have to wait for him. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 19:02, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
- I read all of that a long time ago, and it does not resolve the question. Breaking down the paragraph in question makes this obvious.
- 1. "He drew a rough design for the GT logo, he designed the GT appearance of the series main cast, and he designed the appearances of Giru and the GT spaceship used in the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga."
- No source is listed at all for this statement, though the most obvious culprit would be the GT Dragonbox (where this is explicitly stated). If material (obviously translated) from the Dragonbox can be used to draw this information, then why is it not acceptable to use it to draw other information (ex: Toriyama's stated involvement in GT)? Either the translation is usable or it isn't. Right now, it appears as though some info from the dragonbox is considered wiki worthy at anyone's discretion, while other info is not. And, if this is not in fact drawn from the GT Dragonbox, then its source ought to be listed so the distinction can be made clear. Otherwise, it is mere conjecture.
- 2. Toriyama is credited as an "author". That term would seem to imply that they are referring to the manga/original Dragonball story, since animes do not usually make use of "authors". "Writer" or "producer" would be the term to look for if you're trying to find the originator of the plot/concept of GT.
- This sounds like a colloquialism, but in the case of written vs. animated/film productions, it makes a very significant difference. Regardless, the photos of the ending credits does not prove "strict oversight". Athlone McGinnis 21:52, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
Go ahead and read the talk page and you'll find your answers. Your theory about the author credit referring to the manga is disproved by the credits when looked at as a whole, rather than out of context. There is a credit for Toriyama for being the manga author, and a credit for Toriyama being the GT author. I'm not sure why you're so insistent on robbing the man of credit for a show for which he is officially credited, but you need evidence. Not conclusions you've made, not fan work, not original research or opinions. You need actual official statements. Please read the manual of style for more details. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:06, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
What part of "I read all of that a long time ago" did you not understand?
None of what you just said addresses the following:
I asked where this specific information regarding Toriyama's specific contributions to GT came from, a question which has not been discussed (hence my bringing it up). Jeangabin has addressed where he got the idea for the "strict supervision" claim-this is a separate issue that needs to be addressed (I'll respond to him in a moment).
If the info for Toriyama's specific contributions to the GT logo/character designs/etc mentioned above came from the Dragonbox (which I am almost certain it did), then the Dragonbox needs to be considered a valid source for this section and considered in its entirety (or, if you insist on it remaining invalid, then this information needs to be removed). At a bare minimum, this is a situation in which a clear, easily accessible sidenote needs to be made about the conflict.
If it did not come from the dragonbox, then those claims have got to be cited from a valid source.
So, where did that part of the article come from? It isn't in the ending credits and it isn't in the anime itself, so we can eliminate that. This is the question. It is simple.
As for "robbing", that's not what's happening here. Toriyama himself has already gone on the record as calling his involvement in GT minimal, comparing himself to a mere fan, and having been entirely pleased to delegate everything to the staff.
Your manual of style says that this claim cannot be put into the article because it is a 4th tier source and/or a translation, which is why I haven't bothered doing so. Just because your wiki standards do not accept its publishing, however, does not mean that it is incorrect. There is plenty of legitimate basis (much of it again sourced from Toriyama himself) for the claim that Toriyama was minimally involved in GT. Athlone McGinnis 23:21, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
- The source for Toriyama supervising GT was in his bio on wikipedia, but now it is a dead link. Him being a supervisor for the series was something announced at the time when Dragon Ball GT series was first announced in 1996. 22:17, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
- The link is alive.
- That same source insists that he was "not directly involved with GT". Here is the entire paragraph in question:
- "After Dragonaball Z had ended, TOEI Animation asked permission from Toriyama to continue the Dragonball trilogy with a new series called Dragonball GT. This new series aired in Japan from 1996 to 1997, and was no where near as successful. Toriyama was not directly involved with Dragonball GT, but he did supervise the development. As Toriyama's success grew he decided to open up his own studio know as Bird Studios where he was able to publish many more of his other stories and comics."
- How are you going to claim "strict oversight" (as you've insisted on doing) when your own sources insist that he was not directly involved? How are you going to strictly oversee something when you aren't even directly involved with it?
- That is casual reviewing/advising at best, and it was clearly done on an unofficial basis (hence the lack of direct involvement). Toriyama himself backs this view up during his interview published in daizenshuu 7, where he claims that "I'm only involved with it a little bit. I check the story that gets sent from Toei Animation, and give them some advice." (this before claiming to be "an ordinary audience member") Athlone McGinnis 23:21, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
Athlone McGinnis, I am disappointed that you aren't adhering to our manual of style. The fan translations don't overrule the official media. Toriyama is listed as the author of GT, and you repeating your own conclusions and those of other fans doesn't affect this site's stance due to the policies our community has put in place. If you can find a source which takes priority over GT itself (so, it would have to be a quote in an the officially translated manga), that is the only way you make progress here. Sorry if you don't approve; you are free to suggest changes to the manual of style talk page. Also, I didn't insist on the usage of "strictly," I did the opposite. If you expect people to read your posts then you should read theirs. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:00, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
The repetition of my old conclusions in the post dated 23:21 March 12 2012 was a response to Jeangabin. He specifically claimed there that the source for his claim of Toriyama's supervision was a Toriyama bio, which I linked to. This very same source (which jean has just stated is a basis for his continued reverts of my edits) insists that Toriyama was not directly involved in GT.
This is not a matter of my adherence to the manual of style. From what I am reading here, your own sources for this article (at least, the ones that Jeangabin is taking the liberty of relying on to revert my edits) are in conflict with one another.
If you read the post closely, you would see that I did not claim that you insisted on the usage of "strictly" (we addressed that earlier). That was a response to Jeangabin's insistence on keeping that term in his reversions and its lack of substantiation in the source he cited.
Now, I need to get back to the main question that you have thus far continued to evade. I will copy the source of my contention here:
"He [Toriyama] drew a rough design for the GT logo, he designed the GT appearance of the series main cast, and he designed the appearances of Giru and the GT spaceship used in the Black Star Dragon Ball Saga."
What I have been asking you (this will be my third time posing this question) is this: What is the source for these claims? Where do they come from?
No citation is listed for them, and we know that they are not substantiated in the anime itself.
Do they come from the Dragonbox (where Toriyama makes these statements)? If they do, then your article is already relying on a fan translation (something which you keep insisting cannot be utilized in this wiki), and the rest of that translation's information needs to at least be noted somewhere. That same "fan translation" (which your article is already relying on) contradicts earlier statements in the article itself, and the MOS states that such conflicts must be noted.
If these claims are not in fact sourced from a fan translation, then the actual source needs to be listed.
Quoting your own manual of style here:
"If a more authoritative source directly conflicts with a less authoritative source, the more authoritative source is used, and a separate side note should be made about the conflict."
Your supposed "authoritative source" (the screencap of the ending credits) conflicts directly with a "less authoritative one" (which, absurdly enough, is Toriyama himself). This needs to be noted somewhere in the article in order to maintain objectivity. Athlone McGinnis 16:18, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
Also, I removed the term "strictly", since 10XKamehameha has already agreed that this term is subjective. Athlone McGinnis 16:23, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
- ?? you're question is about Toriyama's designs for GT. It comes from various databooks and Weekly Shonen Jump issues, there are even the images themselves on the page.. 17:21, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Good, as long as it is noted. Athlone McGinnis 19:27, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
I wasn't evading anything, and it is a matter of adhering to the manual of style. GT is a higher priority source than quotes after the fact, even by Toriyama. For instance, if Toriyama suddenly said that Goku never learned to fly, we would have to side with the series and maintain that he could in fact fly. If you disagree, that's fine and you can bring it up on the manual of style talk page to try and have quotes take priority of the series. Additionally, it's not even a direct quote, it's an unofficial fan translation. You keep saying that Toriyama said it, but he didn't, it's second hand info through someone else. That means that it has exactly zero validity, and would be at best original research if it was brought to us by the original translator, which it wasn't. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:48, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
- You're basically saying that the act of translation (barring the use of some "official" translator, which won't exist in this case since there's been no official translation of the gt dragonbox, daizenshuu 7, etc) invalidates Japanese source material (of a Japanese show). Indeed. There's been a lot of animosity directed towards this wiki, and I never really understood why before. I kind of get it now. I suppose there's no real point to continuing this. Hopefully curious fans in the future will at least be able to come through to this talk page and read the discussion alongside the article. Perhaps that will aid them in making more accurate conclusions for themselves. Athlone McGinnis 14:21, March 14, 2012 (UTC)
Awesome ad hominem argument, very logical... anyway the problem with fan translations is that we have no way of telling whether or not what the fan is saying is true. The "quote" that you brought forward may be 100% made up, and you haven't given a reason for us to think otherwise. If there's some fan site you prefer to the wiki, that's fine, but wikis have a way of doing things that make our sites encyclopedias rather than just speculation, opinions, and hearsay. When editing the work of a community, you must respect the policies created by that community. Wikipedia does the same thing. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 23:53, March 14, 2012 (UTC)
Whatever you say dude. Have a good one. Athlone McGinnis 05:14, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
Previous Villains Return from Hell Deaths
I was wondering, I noticed on pages such as Dr. Myuu, Dr. Gero, General Blue, etc, they do not show their "deaths" from when they escaped Hell and were sent back. All three of these characters were shown blowing up, so I would have considered that they died again, plus, they had no halos or anything while on Earth, but when General Blue waits in line with Black, they both have halos again. Would these count as deaths or not? I may be misunderstanding it, but it's worth checking. Thanks to whoever responds. Super Saiyan GoateeSend me a message! 18:57, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
A clarification regarding GT being canon
I had a discussion with 10x kamehameha in which he told me Akira Toryiama wrote GT and "Everyone who says GT was not written by Toriyama is wrong about that 100% of the time, this is a fact", this simply isn't true all sources indicated he drew art for the show but he had no hand in its writing. I wanted to clarify this and negotiate my edits to the canon debate section. NexCarnifex 22:41, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
- I've also read the above discussion, Akira is not credited for writing GT though it is a product of his source material, so it doesn't suprise me they would mention him being an author in the credits, he is the author of the story they were continuing so he is an author for the series in a way. Underneath that statement that clarify they were reffering to his original works, and the clearness of this was obviously just lost in translation. To say he wrote it is simply wrong, he oversaw the production though he was not a writer. NexCarnifex 23:00, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
Your information is not sourced and it is incorrect (based on it disagreeing with things that do have a source). You also misquoted be which I really do not appreciate. Toriyama is credited as the author of GT and there is a source linked above proving this. If you can find a source as official as the credits of the series itself saying that he is not the author than please present this. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:33, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I did not misquote you I copied and pasted the quoted text straight from your talk page so you can go check this if you want. Toriyama was credited as the "original author" the wording in the translation is misleading. Here check this page: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/gt/ from a very reliable website based on the original dragon ball databooks the Diazenshuus. This is a wiki if you want it to be accurate don't be stubborn. NexCarnifex 00:43, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- "Original Author
- The original author, or original creator, is the person who came up with the original concept for the story. In every Dragon Ball property, this credit is given to Akira Toriyama, with a sub-credit for the serialization of the manga in Shueisha’s Weekly Shōnen Jump. In the case of Dragon Ball GT this credit is listed to denote that the original series was the basis for this anime-only production, and in no way indicates that Toriyama had a lot of involvement in the series’ development or planning." - this is why he was listed in the credits as the author, don't misinterpret information just so you can say something is true when it is false NexCarnifex 00:47, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
You did and now you're lying about it. I did not say "100x wrong" like you said twice now that I did. If you would read this talk page you will see that we already know Toriyama is credited as the original author, and this is done in the credits of GT, the very series we are discussing. Then, separately, he is credited as the author of GT, again in the credits of GT. I see that you also have linked a fan site, but I am not sure why. Before you use a website, you should read the policies. Here, that includes the Manual of Style. You will find that we, along with all Wikia sites and Wikipedia, do not recognize fan sites as valid sources. Stop calling me stubborn, as resorting to personal insults is not only unproductive to the conversation here, but it also against the rules. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 01:22, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- That wasn't supposed to be a quote just a summary of the quote I posted right after but I removed it. He is not credited as the author of GT you are misinterpreting the credits as explained on the Kaizenshuu, a site based upon databooks and thorough research, and they did cite their sources. Well I don't know Japanese to translate myself but I know for a fact this website is the most accurate Dragon Ball database there is (can't say so much for this wiki) and they cited their sources at the top in the form of images, so if you want wrong information on the wiki because you insist misinterpreting the credits so you can say something is true when it is false, so be it, I have no authority here you do, so I guess you can decide on the accuracy of things. You're using proof that just isn't there to support a false point. NexCarnifex 01:48, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
He is credited as both, you have ignored that entirely, choosing instead to only acknowledge the original author credit. No fansites. If you find something with any trace of validity let us know. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:07, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- It appears we have someone that just can't accept the fact that GT is canon due to the biased opinion of not liking GT. He is going as far as ignoring credits which are a direct translation and should be held at a much higher regard than that of the translation of a fan website. It takes a lot of blatant ignorance to ignore proven facts like that. I find that the credits are far sufficient evidance that GT is in fact canon. 02:20, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEsg1ms6jeI No he isn't supposed to be credited with both, he is credited with being the author, and you are misinterpreting that as being the author of the GT script which is not the case. The Japanese translation only acknowledges him as the author of the original story and this was strangely translated over to the american credits. I'm not ignoring a fact I am actually providing the truth and you can't seem to accept it, yes its a fansite but a great source of Dragon Ball information as well and they listed their sources, it may not be able to be posted as a wiki source but it certainly clears up the confusion, which they addmitedly did. Jeez, you guys just really want this to go your way, clearly the japanese translations make it clear he was not the writer. NexCarnifex 02:43, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
Even the Japanese wikipedia articles on Toriyama or GT don't not include him as writer, you really think this slipped under the radar? I don't think so. NexCarnifex 03:01, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- The fact that you posted that link tells me that you're not paying attention, since we already have that info on this talk page. Further, it supports the existing facts on this site, and refutes your opinion. In both versions of the credits mentioned so far, he is credited as both the original creator of Dragon Ball, and as the author of GT. I don't disagree that he is credited as the original author, in fact I have already said that. Additionally, he is given a separate credit as the author of GT, which you haven't said a word about. What you're saying doesn't make any sense because you're ignoring the fact and just saying what you want to be true, which would only be the case if he were given one credit, and not two. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:23, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
I know it was previously posted I was posting the one I watched so you knew I watched it, yes I saw the 2 places he was mentioned as the author, I'm saying that this was clearly a translation problem as the translations of the Japanese credits show how the translatiors could have made that mistake, as he was listed as the original writer explicitely, which probably was taken simply as he was the writer. The Kaizenshuu listed all the descriptions of the credit bumps in the original Japanese credits, which are on the top of the page. Additionally, neither the Japanese page of GT or Akira himself lists him as writer, so clearly this is the case. And here you go, the actual writer according to the Japanese GT article: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9D%BE%E4%BA%95%E4%BA%9C%E5%BC%A5 NexCarnifex 03:43, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- 1 ≠ 2, I don't know how you're not getting this. Yes, he is credited as the original author. Yes, he is also credited as the author of GT. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source, even Wikipedia won't use other Wikipedia pages as a source. Please read our Manual of Style for information on sources. It frustrates me that you're wasting my time (and other readers' time as well) by not taking the time to learn basic rules here like what can be used as a source. You've still not presented a single piece of evidence that could be used on any encyclopedic site, such as any Wikia site and Wikipedia. Additionally, the fact that you are seeking evidence to try and prove your point of view tells me that you are not approaching this with a neutral point of view (also covered in the Manual of Style, and also true on every Wikia site and Wikipedia). What a good editor does is make a decision based on available information. Also, this is the last time that I'm going to bother with a full explanation, since you're not even bothering to attempt to find usable info. In the future, if you bring up a source that isn't usable, I'll just tell you to read the Manual of Style and skip the full explanation.
- To summarize: read the Manual of Style, and you haven't shown any evidence that is usable on any Wikia site or on Wikipedia. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:19, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see how you're not getting this, yes he is both credited 2 times, but one of them was a mistranslation of the term "creative author", he should only be credited once. This is backed up by more thorough translations of the Japanese credits and by the very Japanese GT wikipedia page, which clearly lists someone else as the writer. I will get sources later now that we have the actual author, but whether Wikipedia can be used as a source or not is besides my point, which is just that Akira is indeed not the author as the english credits misguided you to think. I'm not trying to support an opinion just vindicate what I know to be reality. NexCarnifex 14:39, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Can this be used as a source? Its a news network so I'm pretty sure it counts. It lists Aya Matsui as the screenplay writer just like every other proper Dragon Ball database or article: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=1477
- Here is another source, here it listed Aya Matsui as screenplay writer and not Akira Toriyama, just like everywhere but the mistranslated english credits, which mistook the Japanese term for creative author for simply 'author': http://webcat.adamslibrary.org/TLCScripts/interpac.dll?LabelDisplay&LastResult=ItemTitles%26Config=youseemore%26FormId=0%26Branch=,0,%26LimitsId=0%26StartIndex=20%26ItemsPerPage=10%26SortField=0%26PeriodLimit=-1%26IdIsDataNumber=0%26DataNumber=150442471%26NotAddToHistory=1%26Count=89%26ItemField=4%26SearchAvailableOnly=0%26PeriodLimit=-1&DataNumber=0&RecordNumber=319934&SearchAvailableOnly=0&FormId=0&ItemField=4&Config=youseemore&Branch=,0, NexCarnifex 21:14, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
- In case you can't read Japanese it says:
- 原 作 / Original Author
- 鳥山 明 / Toriyama Akira
- He is always given credit like this for everything related to his original source material, that is what it means in Japanese, additionally it would be noted GT is based of the original Dragon Ball story. Original Japanese credit bump>translated misleading credit bump. This is what it means, whoever translated the credits to american misinterpreted the term, everywhere else it lists Aya Matsui as the writer which is the actuallity. NexCarnifex 03:11, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
- This is the "GT author credit" bump, they mistraslated this credit bump and it came across as having a different meaning in the english credits, since its the only one mentioning Toriyama as the "author" in the Japanese credits. There is no Japanese credit bump stating he is the author of GT. They would need to specify the manga the story originated as well, clearly this does not specify that it is just giving Toriyama his due, that's why the american credits site he is the "author"(mistranslation of this bump) and that the story was based on the manga as well. NexCarnifex 19:47, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
I appreciate your theory, but it doesn't really make sense that one credit was translated into two separate credits, one correct and one incorrect. What is by far the more likely situation is that the professional television producers who make a career out of creating official media correctly translated this credit (which we know they did), as well as the rest of the credits for the various Dragon Ball series. Unfortunately fan theories alone, such as those that may be found on fan sites, your personal opinions, and any sites stating the information but sourcing one of the two previous types of hearsay cannot be used here, due to the encyclopedic nature of this site. Please understand that from the point of view of anyone reading this, you are making rather wild claims and often, such as in your last message, making absolutely no reference to anything supporting your stance. The reason is that it makes it a he-said she-said situation, with the two sides being you vs. an official publication. Unless there is an opposing claim made my another official media publication-level source, the choice of the community has been made clear in the MoS. Information without a usable source (see the MoS) is, well, useless. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:13, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
- How many times do I have to explain this before it doesn't go straight over your head, no this bump was not "translated into two separate credits" it was mistraslated into 1 which was the one wrongly stating he was the author in the english credits, what they really meant to say was "original author" like in the Japanese credits. Both credits state that the story is based on the original one from the manga seperately. both. seperately. The pictured one has a completely different meaning than addressing what manga the story is based on, its just giving Toriyama his due, like I said, they need to do this for all things based of his works but it does not mean he is the author of GT. Now read closely, nowhere in the Japanese credits does it state Akira is the author, this is the only bump that would have given that idea, and it doesn't mean he is the author, this is not a fan theory this is a cold hard fact and is listed as such every other place but here, Toriyama is not the author you have your proof.
- You think I don't have proof? Well let me direct your eyes up to the picture I recently posted. This is the only bump in the Japanese credits that lists Akira Toriyama as "the author", so clearly this is what Funimation derived their misleading bump from. It doesn't mean he is the author it just means he is credited with the original story from which the cartoon is based on. Does it list the specific manga there? No. That's why they do it later. Sorry but its quite apparent from the original credits Toryiama is NOT the author, and that's all the reliable proof you need, Sorry I repeat myself I feel like I need to.
- Also, if you STILL insist Toriyama is the author of GT based on the badly translated credit bump, why would he comment in an interview that he "wished" he had come up with the idea to turn Goku into a kid? He didn't write GT, the english credits aren't the same as the original Japanese ones. NexCarnifex 23:15, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
- In fact, look what I found, an interview where Toriyama explicitely states, "I'd say I'm only slightly involved. I check the story that Toei Pictures has created, and I offer some advice to them. I only did a few characters designs for them, but it's really interesting!" http://www.thegrandline.com/dbzinfo/toriyamafinale.html so there you have it from the man himself, thank you and have a nice day, oh also allow me to edit that paragraph. NexCarnifex 23:23, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
Repeating your opinions and interpretations does not help, since they are not credible. This is the same as with your newest 1-person fan site link. Please read the Manual of Style before editing on this site. Reading it would probably help you to format a logical argument with a clearer meaning in terms of what a usable source is. I would also urge you to read the Rules and Standards pages, which would guide you to eliminate your very obvious and unacceptable bias. As I've noted before, searching for a source to back an opinion, rather than reading sources and making judgements based thereupon, is a definite indicator that you have a bias. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 23:44, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Opinions? What opinions? Interpretations? What interpretations? Referencing the Japanese credits and what exists within them is not interpretations. The only reason you are calling me opinionated is because I have proven you wrong not by saying GT is dumb but by revealing how there was an error in the english credits. Dismissing my argument without addressing it and just saying its my opinion shows how much in denial you are. Also that interview's source is stated, You want me to go dig that up to? I don't think I should have to, the actual Japanese credits are good enough, I'd like an explanation for why they are not they preceded the english credits. My bias? I'm trying to show you something that is clearly the truth as suggested by the original credits, Toriyama himself, every single database, the Japanese language wikipeida, but most importantly the original credits which I can cite, and you are just telling me its an opinion, check yourself your cracks are showing. NexCarnifex 00:02, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
It is your opinion that there was an error in the translation, but you have given not a single valid sources to prove it. The Japanese credits do not support either case, as I have explained. Please present usable evidence if you would like to continue the discussion. For instance, I have presented an official Dragon Ball publication. If there continues to be none on your end, then the community rules are clear. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:58, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
- That isn't an opinion, opinions are subjective not objective. You haven't explained why the Japanese credits do not support my case as I have explained, you misunderstood what I was saying so I cleared that up for you, but I guess you are too caught up in the idea this is somehow a subjective argument you didn't read it. Maybe you'll read it this time:
- "How many times do I have to explain this before it doesn't go straight over your head, no this bump was not "translated into two separate credits" it was mistraslated into 1 which was the one wrongly stating he was the "author" in the english credits, what they really meant to say was "original author" like in the Japanese credits. Both credits state that the story is based on the original one from the manga seperately. both. seperately. The pictured one has a completely different meaning than addressing what manga the story is based on, its just giving Toriyama his due, like I said, they need to do this for all things based of his works but it does not mean he is the author of GT. Now read closely, nowhere in the Japanese credits does it state Akira is the author, this is the only bump that would have given that idea, and it doesn't mean he is the author, this is not a fan theory this is a cold hard fact and is listed as such every other place but here, Toriyama is not the author you have your proof."
- The english "author" bump is supposed to be the "original author" bump, the "original author" bump is not equivalent to the credit stating the story was based on the Dragon Ball manga.
- Here is the staff list from Toei's website
|Series consists of:||Aya Matsui|
|Series Director:||Osamu Kasai|
|Character Design:||Xiang wins Nakazuru|
|Art and Design:||Takashi Yoshiike|
|: Music||Akatsuki people Tokunaga|
|In charge of production:||Yuichi Suenaga|
- My browser translated it for me, Toriyama is listed as "original" as in "original author" as in,he wrote the original story the series is based upon. As you can also see "series consists of" Aya Matsui, which means he wrote it. This is from an offical and utterly reliable source. http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragongt/staff/index.html NexCarnifex 02:00, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
Your continuous insults directed at me and unnecessary sarcasm are going to lead to a warning if it continues. Quoting an entire previous response of yours and lying by saying that I didn't read it the first time is unproductive and borders on a personal attack. I have already told you that the GT credits in both languages state that Toriyama is the author of the original series, and you never needed to prove that for any reason. What you are claiming is that he did not act as an author on GT. The lack of a credit in some sources is not contradictory to other sources that do give him a credit. These things are completely compatible, this is not debatable, it is simply a fact. I provided an official source saying he is an author. You need to read the Manual of Style, identify a source which supersedes GT, and find a quote of GT not being an author. The lack of a quote supporting is compatible with a quote supporting, so arguments based on that are nonsensical in context. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:16, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
- No he is not included as the author of GT in the original Japanese credits the proof is spelled out for you with a link above your comment. Now you are just being downright illogical. First and foremost, the Japanese credits are the original source and thus hold more precedent over the english credits, this is common sense. So the Japanese credits (the original credits from which the english credits were translated from, no they can't just add to them) state Toriyama was the "Original Author" (different than stating the source manga, something you still don't demonstrate an understanding of :I just an observation, not an attack) and nothing more, while the English credits for some reason state he is the "author" but do not include the "original author" credit that was present in the Japanese credits, then why doesn't it become painfully apparent that the english credits have an error due to a mistranslation of the Japanese bump that is not present and reminiscent of the english credit? Clearly Toei animation does not list Toriyama as the author, and thus he is not the author. Funimation has made mistakes in the past, and this one is in plain view, original credits>translated credits, how do you not see this? This isn't a theory, he isn't awknowledged as the author in the original credits listed on the offical website therefore if he is listed as such on translated credits they are ultimately, and undoubtedly, wrong. Additionally, NOTHING else supports the idea he had any hand in writing it, from numerous interviews to carefully researched and sourced databases, everything denies such involvment, really nothing but a mistranslated bump lists him as author which you've put all your faith in, and the japanese credits are different and list him as "original author" not simply "author" so clearly this is a mistake and its a proven one at that. Sorry but the joke is up Toriyama didn't write GT :I NexCarnifex 04:06, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
- How could I be making it up? I posted the link and everything. If you don't believe my translation then translate it yourself. I've provided the actual original credits, that is more than enough evidence to discredit any mistake in a translation. The original credits list Aya Matsui as the author, so that's who wrote it. NexCarnifex 04:41, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
Aya Matsui is credited in the English version as well, and your browser is not a valid source, let alone a better translator than a team of professional linguists. You seem to be very confused about what a valid source is, so why don't you read the Manual of Style and tell me which sources supersede the GT credits. I'll tell you right off the bat that fan sites, your personal research, your browser, and Wikipedia aren't among them, but let me know what you find it says after reading it. You also seem to be hinting that for some reason only one person writes every television show, which is wrong. Most are written by teams. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 06:27, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
I can trust my browser translator to translate 1 word at least somewhat accurately, and "original" is no where near "author", it seems to me like you want to get rid of common sense in this debate, and no where else does it state his name in the staff credits. Yes the original Japanese credits supercede the english credits, that is common sense as they came first and the english credits are derived from them. Though they both mean the same thing nonetheless, they have to acknowledge him as the original author on everything related to his works, if Funimation wants to just say "author" then it still has the same purpose. Actually lets go and take those precious translated credits and look at that bump:
"Author: Akira Toriyama based on the Original Story"
Like in the Japanese credits they have to give him credit for the story since he started it, but they don't mean he wrote it they mean he was the author of the story its based on, if he wrote it they would have listed him as Screenplay Writer. NexCarnifex 19:08, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
- They did not have to. He created the entire Dragon Ball Series. Namely, Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT. • • •
- I really do not understand the confusion here. Toriyama is stated as the author of the original jap version in the credits. NexCarnifex you claim it is mistranslated yet provide no proof it is. Yes we heard what you said about the jap version and what it has listed in its credits yet you provide no official scan where it does not state him as the author but states someone else as the author. Links to random sites and list or information from random sites with no official source rather then other sites or translations that could be 100% wrong or made up is not proof. Only actual information from the series itself or official guide books such as the Daiz or GT Perfect Files count.
- Which you have given us zero information on. Unless you can prove it was mistranslated it will remain a fact. As it was in the series itself I highly doubt they would mistranslate something so important. Besides even if he did not write it based on your own comments Toei was the ones who made it and Toriyama left the seires in their hands. Therefore basically giving them the rights to do what the want and since they made GT the sequel to the last series and officialy own it as stated in the credits, Its canon, That is all that matters. Wikian13000 21:25, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
- No I posted the original credits from Toei's site, they are different and do not call Toriyama the straight up "author" (which wouldn't mean he wrote the screenplay either). Though really the english credits aren't nessesarily wrong just misleading and written differently, they convey the same message as the Japanese credits, that he was the original author of the story. They give this type of credit to him for EVERYTHING Dragon Ball related, whether he wrote the story within the media or not. He is the author of the story they are continuing but he is not the Screenplay Writer of the anime, Aya Matsui is.
- "Original Author
- The original author, or original creator, is the person who came up with the original concept for the story. In every Dragon Ball property, this credit is given to Akira Toriyama, with a sub-credit for the serialization of the manga in Shueisha’s Weekly Shōnen Jump. In the case of Dragon Ball GT this credit is listed to denote that the original series was the basis for this anime-only production, and in no way indicates that Toriyama had a lot of involvement in the series’ development or planning."
- Your interpretation of the credit holds just as much weight as someone else's, but for the sack of what's real and actual, this is from the Kanzenshuu (website based on the Daizenshuus and the most popular Dragon Ball fansite) and they've been following Dragon Ball for a very very long time. Yes it is a fansite, but you can't say your understanding of what the credits imply are above theirs unless YOU provide a source proving Akira Toriyama's involvement with the series, but I wouldn't waste my time, you won't find any. You will on the other hand find plenty of interviews where Toriyama states he did not have any involvement in the writing of the series, but they're from fansites, so clearly they are forged /sarcasm NexCarnifex 22:32, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
This arguement is rather pointless, as it's always going to end up at the same dead-end. Personally, I believe GT to be "anime-canon", although I realize this isn't something that we can use as an official term. As the credits say Toriyama is the author, I think we can just stick with that. The very fact that Toryama allowed the series to be released seems to make the series canon regardless of whether he wrote the entire thing or not. Of course, GT was very much a creation of Toei and not based of the manga, so it was probably made by a team. I feel confident that Toriyama oversaw the production of the series, and was part of this team. I recall reading an interveliw in which Toriyama makes comments on how he contributed character designs and some plot devices to GT. He then went on to call it a side-story of sorts. This may have been in the Japanese Dragon Box GT, although I have no official links so it really doesn't matter. Anyway, 10X multiple statements about the Manula still hold true. Acording to those guidelines, your sources are rather invalid. I do apologize for my lack of really adding anything into this conversation, but I couldn't help but throw my 5 cents in. 23:32, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Well all I can say is Toriyama did not write GT and saying so is utterly ridiculous, nothing points to this anywhere, in interviews yes he says he contributed artistically and this is a well known fact but never does he mention writing the story in fact he holds he did not write it in an interview I posted in this discussion. It doesn't get any more reliable than the original Japanese credits and misinterpreting Toriyama's credit for being the original author of the Dragon Ball story isn't an argument, simply a misunderstanding. The english credits aren't wrong just worded differently, and they still don't mean he wrote it, just like that Japanese ones.
- This aside, I demand an alternate source confirming that Toriyama's credit for "Original Author" somehow means he wrote GT, when we know it doesn't. Everywhere, interviews from magazines, databases, the original credits, make it clear Toriyama did not write the story of GT, Aya Matsui did. Now can we just all admit the truth already, this is so insane. Or support your incorrect interpretation with sources, follow the Manual! NexCarnifex 00:25, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
Well it's 5 on 1 in agreement with the only official source. Looks like we have a consensus, which is that the correct decision is the existing data. Thanks for the discussion everyone. Sorry if the outcome is not what you were hoping for, but try and rest easy knowing that everyone's motive is purely to keep the site as accurate as possible. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:41, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
So since everyone here is brainwashed you just get to ignore all the facts, logic, and evidience I provided? Just like that because you say so? I should have known you'd make up rules like this. Alright dude, go on being ignorant and putting false information on the wiki, which is already universally panned by the Dragon Ball community for its unreliability. I'll say it again, you are misinterpreting the credit bump, all its doing is giving Toriyama credit for the orginial Dragon Ball story, its actually pretty evident in the bump itself:
"Author: Akira Toriyama based on the Original Story" is what it reads, and its only clearer in the original Japanese credits from which these credtis are translated from, simply reading "Original: Akira Toriyama" (hint it means he wrote the original Dragon Ball story)
He is given this credit in all his media, people who have dedicated their lives to following Dragon Ball can vouch for this.
v This is what you are getting confused about v
- "Original Author
But ok, you want to interpret something the way you want to when everything stands against it including every interview Akira has done on GT I can't stop you. Continue with your little internet cult that goes against something universally accepted as fact, continue to misinterpret "Original Author" as writing GT's script, and defend your belief by collective agreement and denial. Go ahead, you're the administrator. NexCarnifex 01:37, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Well constructed argument with previously cited facts from original Japanese credits to prove you are all (probably purposely) misinterpreting Toriyama's credit=/=mad, though I am frustrated you are so stubborn you ignore everything I say instead just stating "nope I'm gunna believe what I believe" and calling it a day. If you want your article to be false then ignore what I say and pull out a "u mad", if not I'd suggest opening your mind to what I've made incredibly obvious (as if it wasn't before).
- Also, these are the english credits I'm thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEsg1ms6jeI These are the Funimation credits and they make it awfully clear what they mean by "author". Though I do recall watching a different credits video where he was listed twice, though once with no description...hmmm, misleading setup/error? yep, don't tell me you think these credits don't count now... Now you have the Japanese credits AND the Funimation credits supporting the fact Akira Toriyama did not write GT, I can't think of any other proof I'd need to show you, I don't think professional translators would make such a mistake to forget this mysterious Toriyama credit even he denies. NexCarnifex 02:01, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Did you forget Dragon Ball Anime is based on Dragon Ball Manga, also Dragon Ball Z anime is based on Dragon Ball too. I still saw "Author: Akira Toriyama". Also regarding the Funimation credits as an error is pure speculation unless you can find a reliable source that says it was a error. This wiki uses factual information and it is a fact that English GT credits say "Author: Akira Toriyama." I guess you can go ahead and believe what you believe and we will stick to the facts given. 02:36, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
Sweet fansub dude, but "PirateBeck" making subs isn't a source (he credits himself in your version as an editor). In general, when everyone else sees it one way and you are alone on the other end, you should take a step back and examine who is really the one seeing it the wrong way. Another tip is consider what you are saying, there is no reason a bunch of Dragon Ball fans would arbitrarily gang up on you in a conspiracy to add incorrect info. We are all aiming to keep this site as accurate as possible, differentiating it from fan sites with no references.
Now, I can tell you for sure that since you have no evidence, since the other side has concrete evidence, and since the consensus is that you are wrong, the article will not be changed. I guess you can keep posting here if you want, but I'm personally going to stop responding unless I see some acceptable evidence brought forward on your end. If you don't hear from me, it's safe to assume you haven't added usable evidence. Changing the article against the consensus will of course be considered vandalism and dealt with as such. Thanks and happy editing. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:42, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
Either I totally misunderstand the argument here or some people misunderstand something even though they admit other things about GT. Right at the beginning I want to say, I am not one of the people who thinks GT is non-canon. I know it has never been defined but I say it has the right to be canon.
Still the whole "author debate" seems wrong to me. As said, maybe I misunderstand the debate. I think it is clear the main writer of Dragon Ball GT is Aya Matsui. That is confirmed and has been mentioned here as well. So when it comes to author of Dragon Ball GT like "writer" the author is Aya Matsui (or probably a bunch of people from studio Toei plus Akira Toriyama since he had some ideas) as well as the one who came up with the idea of Dragon Ball GT. But when the credits list Akira Toriyama as an author I am absolutely sure they mean "author" like the person who wrote and created the world originally, so the roots of Dragon Ball itself, DB and DBZ afterwards. It should be pretty clear that Akira Toriyama cannot be the writer and creator of Dragon Ball GT if Aya Matsui is and some other people. When it comes to the idea of Dragon Ball GT I don't know who actually created it like "hey, lets make a sequel called ...". But I guess that was not Akira Toriyama as he intended to end the series with vol. 42. To mention it again, I don't mind Toei making GT and I love it as well as it is personally canon for me. And when I think about Akira Toriyama even thinking about a Dragon Ball GT manga when the series was created and him nowadays saying in one of the Battle of Gods review (while laughing) that he is glad that many authors add something to Dragon Ball even though he knows many fans don't like it it is pretty clear for me what Dragon Ball GT should be. Toei wanted it and he helped to make a sequel for the fans and I am pretty sure in 1996 they did not say "hey let's make a sequel for the fans that is just like a sequel but not really a sequel because it does not really happen in Goku's future". And as an end note, "side story" or "spin-off" does not mean "non-canon". There are various stories that have canon side stories and spin-offs. Cetra1 (talk) 17:04, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Could you give a link to the source you are citing for Aya Matsui? Toriyama is listed as the Author in the GT credits. There is an image above. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:45, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
I am a bit confused. I mean, Aya Matsui was mentioned here already.
- Here is a picture of the official German DVD of Dragon Ball GT, saying the script was from Aya Matsui (and yes, as said by me Akira Toriyama is also mentioned as Original Author, he was the first one in the list):
So the story was mainly written by Aya Matsui while the Original Author thing seems to be like a "Original Author of Dragon Ball". Hope I could clarify something here. And as said, I do like GT and I count it so acting as if it is non-canon is not the point of my post. Cetra1 (talk) 00:39, October 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Oh okay, he wrote the script, cool. As described earlier, and seen in the images above, Toriyama is indeed credited as the original author of Dragon Ball, but he is also given a second, separate credit as the author of GT specifically. My interpretation would be that he wrote the story, and then Matsui wrote the full script. That is just my guess though. Since we are an encyclopedia, the best way for us to present info is not to guess at anything like I did there, and instead to quote sources directly. Do you feel like we are making any guesses about Toriyama in the article that aren't directly from sources? -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:59, October 25, 2013 (UTC)
I think many people here are making guesses that are not credible since that is typical for Dragon Ball (beginning with sentences like "GT is non-canon, At said that" and ending with "Gohan is the strongest unfused character, AT said that"). I am not talking about the wiki staff here, just people in general. And I also wanted to point out what Aya Matsui did to clarify things. I don't know if that helps but in the same credits I showed you Akira Toriyama got only one credit. That of the original author and no second one. While I do believe, that he had some ideas, I think you wrote it in some of those posts here, I guess we can agree that not everything can be from him since he seems to have said that he wished he would have had the idea of making Goku a kid again. Also the Battle of Gods interview with him being glad about other authors adding things to Dragon Ball seems to be reason enough to believe that there actually are other people whe really may write official things about Dragon Ball. I mean, it was the same for old movies and he said he checked the story for them so why not? From what I have read he even thinks other people make Dragon Ball better since he is not that creative when it comes to some ideas about it (my words, not exactly his own).
So to answer your questions about guessing things concerning GT, yes, I think a bit of a guess is contained (technically not guessing is impossible). When Aya Matsui is the main writer (proven as you can see and also agree with me), Akira Toriyama wanted to end the story but agreed to work partly on GT and interviews exist (I did never see the original interviews but I believe the wiki page here takes some credible translations from the internet since they mention Akira Toriyama's minor involvement in the canon debate section) about him not being as much involved in it as in DB/Z (which is just logical), plus saying things like him not having the idea of Kid Goku (which pretty much is one of the most important things about GT) it is logical to say he was not the one who wrote like a draft of the script before. I do agree with you that he had some ideas though. Cetra1 (talk) 13:47, October 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting ideas. We really need everything to be from a published source to put it in the article though. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 01:53, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
That is clear. His interviews however are officially published material, aren't they? So they combined with the rest give us some unequivocal conclusions. I can't and won't force you to change anything, however. Actually I am fine with the main page. I just wanted to add things here in the comment section. Cetra1 (talk) 02:55, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Oh okay, well your comments are duly appreciated. If you want to incorporate it into the article, it's not enough to say that interviews exist, you need to actually give a link to it (with a translation where necessary). The goal is that when ever someone reads info on the site and they don't believe it, they can click the reference link or view an official image and see with their own eyes that it is true. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:50, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, I did not know the kanzenshuu.com/translations/ interviews are not known here. I believe that was the site. Kanzenshuu definitely translates Dragon Ball stuff (not everything 100% accurate but definitely enough for such interviews).
- (interviewer) "With regards to the anime’s new series, Dragon Ball GT, how involved are you?"
Just a little bit. I’ll check the stories that come up from Toei Animation, and give them a little bit of advice. Also, I’ve drawn just a few characters and illustrations. But it’s interesting! It feels like, “Ah, so they could do it this way”. I think everyone at Toei Animation really racked their brains. Good work. To think they’d make Goku little. With this story, I might even be able to continue the manga serialization again… though I have absolutely no intention of drawing it. (laughs)"
- - Akira Toriyama, Daizenshuu 7 Shenlong Times
- Hopefully I could help. I read somewhere above you do not accept fan sites (which I fully understand considering many people want to use some official material to claim their interpretation being the truth like GT not being canon or Gohan being stronger than Goku, et cetera) but maybe for interviews like that which explan some topics many want to know it is good because I am absolutely sure an officially published English translation from someone whose job it actually is does not exist. Cetra1 (talk) 17:53, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
Great, that is what we would need. I agree that is it unlikely a translation would get published for everything, so in that case a fan translation is the next best thing. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 19:21, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
Dragon Ball GT Manga?
I believe GT is non canon.
Who is name of Written??
Question about Name? =)
- The Grand Tour is the Galaxy Tour which is the reason why "GT" also means "Galaxy Tour".
- Cetra1 (talk) 09:02, April 25, 2014 (UTC)
Japanese Saga Names
Japanese Saga Names:
didn't dragon ball gt's sagas have japanse names like dragon ball and dragon ball z's sagas? Nikon23 10:09AM 12/18/2014
Another Universe in GT
Does anyone have more details on this Trunks quote and the context within Xenoverse? Xenoverse has alternate realities and time travel, and Trunks is often involved with alternate realities and time travel, and I'd like to know if the quote is relevant or just too deeply involved with Trunks and the game's setting to be useful. The MoS states that anime takes precedence over video games anyway, but could be interesting if it has value. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:21, March 15, 2015 (UTC)
- In Xenoverse you visit three major timelines in total.
- Main Dragon Ball Z timeline. (Raditz to Beerus)
- Future Trunks' timeline (which is connected to the main Dragon Ball Z timeline)
- Dragon Ball GT timeline
For what you're referring to as the "main" timeline, is that the one where enemies from the future are now disrupting the past? It seems unlikely that any timeline that a future villain travels to and disrupts, even if a future hero fixes things, could possibly be the timeline seen in the anime. Based on the 2-4 Trunks existing as a result of the anime, I think it's likely that all timelines touched by this game are separate from the main timeline. I would think that they are identical, until the game touches them and they diverge. That said, multiple timelines does not have anything to do with canon (Future Trunks and Cell as examples). -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 19:09, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
- I think it means that inside the game's continuity, GT is a different, parallel continuity, while Battle of Gods is a part of the main continuity. But of course this doesn't reflect on an off-universe perspective on what is canon, otherwise it could also mean that the timeline that the what-if timeline that Piccolo absorbs Kami and then fights against the Androids and Babidi is also part of the main continuity. 19:18, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
What-if is an alternate reality that is made up just for fun for a game. Timelines are all part of the same universe and can be interacted with. No one is saying that Future Trunks home timeline is not canon, rather it is most definitely canon because it is in the original manga. We are confusing two issues: timelines and canon. The two are unrelated. This game interacts with different timelines than anything we see in the manga, anime, or movies, because the events happen differently. The fact that Trunks has never been to the GT timeline does not imply a divergent reality from Battle of Gods, it simply implies that GT happens at a different time, which we already knew. Remember that time travel theory in DB is that an infinite number of unique dimensions exist, and occur at slightly different times. Trunk could not travel to his own past, only to a parallel dimension that was a few years earlier. Likewise, Trunks cannot travel to his own GT period, only to an alternate universe in which GT time is parallel to his own dimension's present. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:38, March 16, 2015 (UTC)
- The events in Xenoverse are in the main timeline, the villains damage time and then you go back and stop the changes they caused from happening, which repairs the scroll and restores the original Z timeline.
- Future Trunks did not state that he has never been to the GT era of time, he states that he has never been to the timeline that GT exists in, but that at some point in that timeline's past a different Future Trunks visited it.Neffyarious (talk) 10:22, March 17, 2015 (UTC)
- Oh okay, got it. So it is the main timeline for the DBZ stuff, but the GT that is visited in that game is not the GT from the main timeline, it's a different timeline that is chronology further along. You know to be honest, the way they time travel in that game sounds inconsistent with time travel in the manga, since Trunks can get to different points in time within the same dimension. Trunks shouldn't be able to get to multiple points of time in the same dimension EVER, unless those points of time pass naturally wherever he is as well. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 19:36, March 17, 2015 (UTC)
Actually the Time Machines used by the Time Patrol are special ones made by the Supreme Kai of Time that won't create branch timelines.20:00, March 17, 2015 (UTC)
- Okay got it. That's a lot better than Trunks' original one, practically speaking, imho. Trunks could actually save his own timeline with one of those. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 23:06, March 17, 2015 (UTC)
The Future Warrior does not even use a time machine when travelling through time in story missions, he uses the scrolls of history to transport himself back and forth.--Neffyarious (talk) 09:09, March 18, 2015 (UTC)
So the reason that Future Trunks says it's an alternate timeline, it's because GT Trunks is the same age as him, and therefore, they could be called "alternate versions" of each specific future. GT Trunks and Future Trunks are alternate versions of each other.18:38, March 20, 2015 (UTC)
GT is not canon, not anymore.
is GT in a different timeline?
i know GT non canon but Don't you think GT Could be in a different timeline? i think GT in the same timeline as coolers revenge because cooler is seen escaping hell in GT (Spice boys (talk) 17:01, June 13, 2015 (UTC)
- GT canon. It is same timeline as DBZ because in the first episode of GT it says it is "5 years after" DBZ. 17:10, June 13, 2015 (UTC)
It's a different timeline to the "canon" one (Toriyama timeline,DB manga,DBZ manga,BoG and RoF) because SSGod is stronger than SSJ4.So it wouldn't make sense that Goku had to use SSJ4,because in his base form now he's already a Saiyan Beyong God,that it's as strong as SSGod (The book GT 100 gears later confirms that Super Vegito is stronger than a SSJ4,and BoG confirms that SSG Goku is stronger than Super Vegito).Sandubear,you can't confirm is canon,because Toriyama never used the word canon and he already said it's in a different timeline that his works.About BOG: First of all,there isn't an offical canon.You can't confirm it,it's your own opinion.Second,BoG IS in Toriyama line,and it's confirmed,it isn't a fillier.Both BOG and ROF were written by Toriyama,so there AREN´T filliers like the other movies (Broly,Cooler,etc.)Don't confuse people.And Goku can convert SSGSS (which is stronger than SSG) when he wants.Why he didn't use it against Baby? Also Toriyama stated that after RoF Goku and Vegeta will never transform again in SSJ or SSJ2.Also,I don´t understand why did you put your last message up to this one.If you don´t have arguments,don´t do that.Moflium-Devote (talk) 17:43, June 13, 2015 (UTC)
- battle of gods not canon because movie. movies filler. 17:52, June 13, 2015 (UTC)
Battle of Gods and Resurrection F are canon, not filler (whatever Sandubadear is talking about). However, GT is a side-story to DBZ , stated by Akira Toriyama. GT is now irrelavent. Meshack (talk) 00:52, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- Movies are less canon than the anime series, haven't you ever read the Manuel of Style? 00:56, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
- No, the Manuel says that all 19 of them. 01:12, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
Just click "Manuel of Style" in the guideline section.01:20, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
Dude srsly, have you even bothered to look at it? Here. 01:35, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
I did bother. I found it but I thought you were talking about something else.
Okay... Yes, Battle of Gods and Resurrection F are movies., but it is official. Those movies aren't like the other movies. It is in the movies section, because they are movies. These movies cancelled out GT because Super Saiyan God, Beerus, Whis, Frieza, Hell (from Resurrection F) are not even in GT. I guess you aren't accepting them as canon because there hasn't been a statement saying that GT is not canon (or is) (but even though it was stated as a side-story) or because they're movies.
Is already confirmed that the tow last movies are in Toriyama's storyline.They AREN'T filliers,Toriyama writed them.That is why you don't see Gregory in BoG: for Toriyama it doesn't exist at all.IS already confirmed the two last movies are in the timeline,that's all,you can't still say "movies are filliers,they are less canon that anime".Not.They aren't.The original anime is less canon that DBKai and the two last movies.It is your problem if you don't want to accept it.But both movies are in the timeline and have being wtitten by Toriyama.That's all.Moflium-Devote (talk) 02:14, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
http://db30th.com/into/into_nenpyo.html I came across this recently, and it lists the timeline of Dragon Ball but doesn't have GT in it. The question is, is it not there because it's in a different timeline, or is it not there because it isn't relevant to the purposes of that website (e.g. placing DBS etc. in continuity). Thought I'd throw that out there. 02:53, June 15, 2015 (UTC)
Explanation of recent edits
Just wanted to explain my recent edits in case of dispute:
- I removed Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' from counter-examples to GT being non-canon due to lack of a manga because they're movies, rather than an anime series, so they don't fit.
- I removed the part about Sabat having no authority whatsoever because although he may not have authority, he may have information that we don't. It's better to evaluate at face value.
- I removed the part about Toei Animation stating things because it seems rather biased, and I don't think we really do the whole "OFFICIALLY CANON" thing here; preferring instead to do levels, etc.