Forum:Power Comparisons: Which characters can beat which?

Forum → Power Comparisons: Which characters can beat which?

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Who would win in a battle between Cell and Broly? What about Super Buu (everyone absorbed) and Kid Buu? The answers will be settled here! -- 10X Kamehameha 01:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: All discussions in regard to power comparisons do not belong in articles. This is in response to the overwhelming amount of debate on "who is stronger than who". Any information here shouldn't be added to articles as they are all speculation and what-if scenarios. All material here is for debate only and is not to be taken as definitive source material. That being said, enjoy the comparisons. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 20:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Broly vs. Cell

I feel Cell would win. Just my opinion. And, to further ascertain the strength behind this belief, I found Cell and Frieza to be the strongest in all of Hell as their union in GT proved they surpassed all other past villains, not only in level of importance and canon, but also in terms of power when they combined their strength to form the Hell's Buster (Almighty Light Cage). - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 20:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Without the fact that Broly's power never really depletes and increases over time, at the point in which they are both introduced(meaning that Broly-Second Coming would be irrelevant to Broly's power), I believe that Cell would defeat Broly. But the abilities of the two warriors would most likely make victory easier in some ways. Broly's power does increase after a certain amount of time, but there is a limit to how much his power can increase at one time since he has been shown to release amounts of it in fits of rage. And along with the fact that Cell is already an extremely powerful opponent, he can also regenerate at will in a matter of seconds, likely giving him the upper hand. So in the end, I agree that Cell would win.--BrolyTheGod 23:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

From my personal judgment, I'd say Broly is more powerful than Cell, and here's why. During the events of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, we clearly see Broly being able to completely dominate two Full-Power Super Saiyans, two Ascended Super Saiyans and a Super Namek (one could argue Vegeta did not technically fight Broly at the same time as the others). In conclusion, we know that Broly must be far more powerful than a lone Full-Power Super Saiyan, perhaps more than twice as strong. Now in regards to Cell, Goku battles Perfect Cell as a Full-Power Super Saiyan, and the two are pretty much evenly matched. Now yes, Cell was holding back his full power, but even then I wouldn't say he had to much more power then Goku. Of course, Cell is completely dominated by Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Now we really don't know the power difference exactly between a Full-Power Super Saiyan and a Super Saiyan 2, all we know is that Gohan goes from being dominated by Cell to turning the tables on him completely. Now when Cell returns as "Super Perfect" Cell, he has obviously grown more powerful, even to the point where it would appear he is nearly as strong as a SSJ2 (One must also take into consideration that SSJ2 Gohan was both injured and worn out when he faced him in the Kamehameha duel). So, how would Broly far against a SSJ2? This one is hard to tell, as it in all honestly never truly revealed is this is the form the adult Gohan took when he fought Broly in Broly: Second Coming, but it is assumed so because he alone puts up a much better fight against Broly, who's power had even increased since the first movie. However, Gohan alone even as possibly a SSJ2 is not strong enough to kill Broly alone (one could also take into account that Gohan grows considerably weaker after the 7 year gap between Cell and Buu sagas). In conclusion, I'd finalize by saying that if Perfect Cell battled Broly, from both the 1st movie or 2nd movie, he would without a doubt lose. If Super Perfect Cell battled Broly, he may possibly stand a good chance against Broly from the 1st movie, but would most likely lose to the Broly from the 2nd movie. So in conclusion, I believe Broly is in fact more powerful than Cell and could defeat him in battle.

talk contr

03:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

But this is all from when they are alive. I meant who'd win after all the villains escaped from hell in GT. I think it was rather evident that Cell and Frieza surpassed all the other villains in terms of power, even Rilldo. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't know you meant after they were dead. In the note of Frieza and Cell passing all of the villains in Hell, I disagree to the extent that Goku completely picked them apart in his base form with very minimal effort.

talk contr

03:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The comparison isn't really with Goku as he can pick ALL of them apart. The comparison's to Broly. All the rest of the villains sort of serve as secondary to Frieza and Cell. I think it has a lot to do with their persona and power. They did after all, surpass the rest of the villains in hell in GT. That's what I was trying to convey. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 06:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

In all due respect, I would say Broly would win. Here's why:

1. Broly took on 2 full power super saiyans, 2 ascended super saiyans, and a super namek
2. Cell was dominated by SSJ2 Gohan
3. Broly is a legendary super saiyan, which is supposed to be the most powerful transformation of all as his power level when he was born was 10,000
4. I don't think a SSJ2 could handle 2 full power super saiyans, 2 ascended super saiyans and a super namek single handedy like Broly
5. so IF a SSJ2 couldnt beat Broly, (metaphorically, as Broly never really battled a SSJ2) and Cell was dominated by a SSJ2, then Broly would easily outclass him. Kakarot810 06:42, 16 August 2009 (UTC)Kakarot810

You know, Kakarot810 does have a point. the Super Exciting Guide (which is the closest thing to comparing power levels between various Super Saiyan forms as we can get)did say that Super Saiyan 2 is twice as powerful as a Super Saiyan 1 (Of course, I don't know if it's referring to an untrained Super Saiyan 1, or a Full Power Super Saiyan, but I think it may be meaning both.), so if two Full Power Super Saiyans combined didn't even seem to phase Broly in Movie 8, never mind Two Full Powered Super Saiyans, Two Ascended Super Saiyans, and a Super Namek fighting together, and a Super Saiyan 2 is supposed to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 1 by a twofold, I think it's pretty evident that Legendary Super Saiyan is supposed to be far stronger than Super Saiyan 2 (At least 1.5x as strong, since that's what the gang up effort by two Full Power Super Saiyans, Two Ascended Super Saiyans, and a Super Namek equate to at the very least.). Heck, if we go by Vegeta's Ascended Super Saiyan form (which is implied to be 3x as strong as Super Saiyan 1 due to training), then we may have him being 3x as strong as a Super Saiyan 2 (3x as strong as a Super Saiyan = 1.5X as strong as a Super Saiyan 2, as a Super Saiyan 2 = 2 Super Saiyans/Full Power Super Saiyans.). Assuming, mathematically, this is the case, then Movie 8 LSSJ Broly ALONE would be more than capable of defeating Super Perfect Cell before the fight can even begin.

For the record, Majin Frieza, I'm the same guy who had that debate with you about Super Perfect Cell/Super Saiyan 2's forms strength compared to Broly.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood the time of the battle and assumed that you were referring to Cell and Broly when they are first faced. In the case of which would defeat which during the breakout of villains in Hell during GT, I suppose Cell and Frieza surpassed the other villains. But even that is questionable, since Broly's power increases over time, and though I hate to bring it up, it was stated that Broly was causing trouble in Hell after Bio-Broly, which is assumed to be rather close to GT, and had Goku needed to stop Broly's rampage. But, that is before GT so everything is debatable. I only wonder how Goku would have fared had he faced Broly in Hell during GT instead of Cell and Frieza. Oh well, I suppose we'll never know.--BrolyTheGod 00:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that although Broly would win in Z, he is likely to lose in the end of GT due to Frieza and Cell pretty much owning hell. Even Cooler and Bojack are portrayed as secondary to Frieza and Cell. It's common logic that all the villains bowed down to Frieza and Cell. Here's what I'd contemplate. What happened to Omega Shenron after he got capped, did he go to hell, and if so, he must have been the most powerful in hell. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 02:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You know, to be fair, Bojack was always an inferior villain compared to Cell anyways, in GT or in Z. I mean, Cell was at least able to survive Super Saiyan 2 Gohan long enough. Bojack couldn't even handle exactly two hits from the warrior before he died.

Wow, I never noticed Cooler as a secondary villain to Frieza. How do you think that happened? -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Very easily. They all stayed the same in terms of power and Frieza and Cell just kept getting stronger due to their forming the Hell's Buster (Almighty Light Cage) - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 02:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That, as well as the fact that they were already dead anyways (which is basically the only reason other than Almighty Light Cage that they could survive Goku's attack), had they been in the living realm, I sincerely doubt that they would last much longer than the other villains. To Kakarot810, Broly did fight against a SSJ2, actually. It was in Movie 10 against Gohan [and the Daizenshuu pretty much confirmed that he was SSJ2, or at least, that's what I heard.). To Broly_The God, I personally considered Bio-Broly to not be canon even with the Broly-saga, nevermind the Anime or the series as a whole (too many errors/plotholes related to all continuities), but if we are to assume that it's canon, then that means that he was able to commit a large scale riot in Hell, something that even Frieza, Cell, King Cold, and the Ginyu Force were unable to do successfully (They were about to execute their first Oni when Goku and Pikkon arrived, and they had barely even begun before they arrived.).

Let me comment on Kakarot810's list: 1.That's 100% true. 2.Perfect Cell was dominated, Super Perfect Cell was hard to beat for SSJ2 Gohan. 3.That's the main reason Broly is so overrated. Many people think that no matter how hard Goku and Vegeta train, they can never be as strong as Broly because he's "The Legendary Super Saiyan". It was shown countless time throughout DBZ that titles don't matter that much, and that with enough training anyone can be surpassed, even legendary characters. Also, Broly's transformation is definitely not the strongest one, if it was he would've been stronger than a SSJ3, which he obviously isn't since here's no way for a SSJ3 to be defeated by weak fighters like those who beat Broly were. 4.You couldn't be more wrong there. Take a look at the fight against the Cell Juniors. In the manga, only Vegeta and Trunks were able to fight them but were still losing against them. This means that each Cell Junior is at least as strong as Ascended Saiyan Vegeta or Ascended Saiyan Trunks. SSJ2 Gohan killed each Cell Junior with just one blow. This means that SSJ2 Gohan could also kill Ascended Saiyan Vegeta and Ascended Saiyan Trunks with one blow each as well. Could Broly do this? No. He hit Vegeta and Trunks, knocking them down for the count, but he definitely couldn't kill them with one blow each. Taking this into consideration, a SSJ2 would overhelm 2 ascended saiyans, 2 full power super saiyans and a super namek much easier than Broly did. 5.Read above, and you'll see why your argument isn't very valid. Still, you did have some nice points.

Now, my thoughts are: Broly is stronger than Perfect Cell but weaker than Super Perfect Cell. GT Cell however, would probably kill Broly with a slap to the face. MajinFreeza 21:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes mate. That's why I said only GT Frieza and GT Cell. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 22:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

"2.Perfect Cell was dominated, Super Perfect Cell was hard to beat for SSJ2 Gohan."

When Vegeta had fired the blast onto Super Perfect Cell, he seemed to shout as though he was in pain (and Vegeta was only in Base form, or if one goes by the Anime, an Ascended Super Saiyan.). Yes, Super Perfect Cell was clearly dominating over SSJ2 Gohan, but considering how he was injured by someone who was inferior to SPC at the time, much less SSJ2 Gohan, it ultimately doesn't matter.

"3.That's the main reason Broly is so overrated. Many people think that no matter how hard Goku and Vegeta train, they can never be as strong as Broly because he's "The Legendary Super Saiyan". It was shown countless time throughout DBZ that titles don't matter that much, and that with enough training anyone can be surpassed, even legendary characters. Also, Broly's transformation is definitely not the strongest one, if it was he would've been stronger than a SSJ3, which he obviously isn't since here's no way for a SSJ3 to be defeated by weak fighters like those who beat Broly were."

Technically, he was beaten by Goku. All they did was just contribute their energy to Goku. Plus, if you've noticed, they also needed to aim for a certain weak spot (that is, the area that Broly was stabbed at as a child.).

And for the record, yes, SSJ3 can be beaten by "weak fighters". As a matter of fact, considering how similar SSJ3 is to USSJ (That is, sacrificing a key component to winning a fight for max stats in other areas (in USSJ, it was Speed, for SSJ3, it was Stamina)), then one hit from a character, and the character with SSJ3 will have a long time recovering from that. In fact, it was, in one sense, beaten by a "weak character" (Kid Buu was weaker than any of Super Buu's forms, in fact, arguably the weakest Buu other than Good Buu, had beaten SSJ3 Goku, he couldn't even regain his energy in the time he estimated, and in fact, lost all energy when he tried to regain it. It was even implied that SSJ3 Goku could easily beat Kid Buu, yet he still lost.).

"4.You couldn't be more wrong there. Take a look at the fight against the Cell Juniors. In the manga, only Vegeta and Trunks were able to fight them but were still losing against them. This means that each Cell Junior is at least as strong as Ascended Saiyan Vegeta or Ascended Saiyan Trunks. SSJ2 Gohan killed each Cell Junior with just one blow. This means that SSJ2 Gohan could also kill Ascended Saiyan Vegeta and Ascended Saiyan Trunks with one blow each as well. Could Broly do this? No. He hit Vegeta and Trunks, knocking them down for the count, but he definitely couldn't kill them with one blow each. Taking this into consideration, a SSJ2 would overhelm 2 ascended saiyans, 2 full power super saiyans and a super namek much easier than Broly did. "

Actually, going by how Goku reacted when Broly threatened Gohan, I'm pretty doubtful that SSJ2 Teen Gohan could even fare with Movie 8 LSSJ Broly. As you know, Goku told Gohan to flee (despite Gohan's protests), and yet he allowed Gohan to fight Cell. Both times he knew of Gohan's hidden power (and if we take that flashback in Cell's Mighty Breakdown as canon, he even knows about his son's SSJ2 form long before his transformation at the Cell Games.). So, either Goku has Alzheimers, or that statement implies that, should Gohan have gone SSJ2 right then and there, Broly still would have beaten Gohan to a pulp very easily.

Another thing, the only reason Goku, Gohan, and Trunks were even able to continue fighting after the Second Round was because of Piccolo. Had Piccolo not arrived and given them the Senzu beans, they wouldn't be able to survive for long (as a matter of fact, Broly was very close to killing Gohan when Piccolo intervened.).

It's also heavily implied that Broly likes to toy with his challengers (such as when he says "If you just let me kill you all before, you won't be dealing with this kind of pain now!", meaning that he was probably fighting below his full potential just to toy with his opponents.), so had he fought without Toying with his opponents, he definitely would have killed/destroyed them at a rate much faster than either the Cell Jrs OR Gohan.

Well, whatever, it's still you're opinion. Considering the facts they gave (Far more than just the fact that he's referred to as the Legendary Super Saiyan, BTW), I still think that he's stronger than the other characters. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to GT Cell, since if he used the Almighty light cage against him, he might be defeated. However, there is the equal possibility that Broly may take him out before he even gets the chance to use the attack.

To PrinceZarbon, thank you, GT Cell and GT Freeza are probably in a league of their own compared to the rest of the escaping villains at the time. Agreed.

To whoever it is that replied to my post (sorry, but you didn't introduce yourself), Cell was focussing all his energy and attention to Gohan, so it's all only natural he lowered his defenses and got surprised by Vegeta. This is not the first time such a thing happened to a DBZ villain. Piccolo managed to surprise and obviously cause pain to final form Freeza after gathering the energy from Gohan and Krillin. Broly himself had a case like that, when in movie 10 base Gohan caused him pain by kicking him in the face because he (Broly) was distracted while looking at Videl. Weaker fighters can cause damage to stronger fighters in DBZ if the stronger fighters are distracted, but they still can't kill them. It does matter, Super Perfect Cell was hard to defeat for SSJ2 Teen Gohan.

Ah yes, the famous "he got punched where he was stabbed" theory again. Where was it ever stated in the movies that that's the reason he was defeated? The fans have taken that theory into consideration and believed it like it was stated in the orginal material (in this case, the movies) which it wasn't, nor was it implied. Where is your proof that Broly was punched where he was stabbed? True, it did take only Goku to defeat him. That is, a badly beaten up Full Power Super Saiyan Goku with the energy of his half dead friends was enough to easily block Broly's punch and defeat him with one blow. I never said SSJ3 can't be defeated by weaker fighters, I said it can't be defeated by weak fighters like the ones who defeated Broly. Goku was defeated by Kid Buu, but Kid Buu is still way more powerful than the Z-fighters that defeated Broly in both movies.

You're saying that movie 8 Broly would have defeated SSJ2 Teen Gohan very easily? Wow...just wow. Movie 10 Broly managed to overpower SSJ2 adult Gohan, but Gohan still managed to fight him. His attacks did hurt Broly, he freed himself from Broly's own grip, and he outmaneuvered Broly during their chase through the lava canion. And now you're saying that movie 8 Broly (who is weaker than movie 10 Broly) would have easily defeated SSJ2 Teen Gohan (who is much stronger, faster, and more skillfull in combat than SSJ2 adult Gohan)? Do you see the problem with your theory? Also, let me point out that the Z-fighters in the movies aren't of the same power level as they are in the manga and the anime despite the fact that they're in the same forms. Take a look at movie 6. Dende is the Guardian of the Earth, meaning Piccolo and Kami had fused and become a Super Namek. Goku and Vegeta are only normal Super Saiyans in this movie, meaning they should be much weaker than Piccolo, yet Goku did a lot better against Metal Cooler than Piccolo did. See the flaw? Same thing goes for movie 8. In the series, when Goku and Gohan turned Full Power Super Saiyans, they were in a league of their own compared to the rest of the Z-fighters, and it was even stated by Goku that in this form Gohan is stronger than him. Yet in movie 8, despite the fact that he looked like a Full Power Saiyan, Gohan clearly wasn't even close to Goku's level, in fact, he seemed to be even weaker than Ascended Saiyan Trunks. The main characteristic of Gohan's hidden power was that even in his Full Power Super Saiyan form he was the strongest Z-fighters and could go even further than that by turning SSJ2. Considering this clearly is not the case in movie 8, saying Goku knew about Gohan's hidden power at the time but didn't want him to fight isn't a valid argument at all. The movies follow a separate timeline than the series, so just because Goku learned about Gohan's SSJ2 form in the Time chamber in the series, doesn't mean that it's the same case in the movies as well. Goku's attitude towards Gohan changed after fiding out about Gohan's hidden power. Before he would tell Gohan to leave during battles, but then he actually encouraged him to fight, even going as far as giving Cell a senzu bean to make it a "fair fight". This is more than enough proof that if Goku knew about Gohan's hidden power in movie 8 he certainly wouldn't have told him to leave, meaning Goku didn't know about it at the time. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the first time Gohan's hidden SSJ2 power was even mentioned and implied in the movies was in movie 9.

It doesn't matter whether Piccolo arrived or not, Broly didn't kill Trunks with one blow. It's not the same to kill someone instantly with one blow, or to beat them up and let them die from the wounds and bruises.

You do realize SSJ2 Gohan wasn't going all out on the Cell Juniors either? He wasn't even going all out on Cell himself either, as later shown when he wanted to make Cell suffer instead of killing him. He was puching and kicking the Cell Juniors without trying and he masacred them in the process. Where is your proof that Broly would have killed all the Z-fighters much easier than Gohan did the Cell Juniors? Broly punched, kicked and fired energy blasts at the Z-fighters without killing them, if Gohan had done this to the Cell Juniors they would've been killed even faster than they were (if that's even possible).

Very well, I respect your opinion too. And what are these facts? Could you list them, so that we can discuss them? MajinFreeza 08:23, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Ah yes, the famous "he got punched where he was stabbed" theory again. Where was it ever stated in the movies that that's the reason he was defeated? The fans have taken that theory into consideration and believed it like it was stated in the orginal material (in this case, the movies) which it wasn't, nor was it implied. Where is your proof that Broly was punched where he was stabbed? True, it did take only Goku to defeat him. That is, a badly beaten up Full Power Super Saiyan Goku with the energy of his half dead friends was enough to easily block Broly's punch and defeat him with one blow. "

It wasn't verbally stated, but it was certainly implied that it was the case. I mean, other than the fact that we saw Goku punch that exact area that they (sort-of) showed him being stabbed, but right when the punch connected, Broly looked extremely surprised, and it cut to when Goku and Broly were babies. Just because Goku didn't say "I punched him where he was stabbed where he was a baby" doesn't mean it wasn't the case.

"You're saying that movie 8 Broly would have defeated SSJ2 Teen Gohan very easily? Wow...just wow. Movie 10 Broly managed to overpower SSJ2 adult Gohan, but Gohan still managed to fight him. His attacks did hurt Broly, he freed himself from Broly's own grip, and he outmaneuvered Broly during their chase through the lava canion. And now you're saying that movie 8 Broly (who is weaker than movie 10 Broly) would have easily defeated SSJ2 Teen Gohan (who is much stronger, faster, and more skillfull in combat than SSJ2 adult Gohan)? Do you see the problem with your theory?"

"Also, let me point out that the Z-fighters in the movies aren't of the same power level as they are in the manga and the anime despite the fact that they're in the same forms. Take a look at movie 6. Dende is the Guardian of the Earth, meaning Piccolo and Kami had fused and become a Super Namek. Goku and Vegeta are only normal Super Saiyans in this movie, meaning they should be much weaker than Piccolo, yet Goku did a lot better against Metal Cooler than Piccolo did. See the flaw?"

You're going to need to cite a much better example than that, seeing how Movie 6 has many flaws that have not been corrected (like for example, Gohan not even having a SSJ form, never mind a FPSSJ form.). Movie 8, on the other hand, kept most of it's supposed timeplace intact.

"Same thing goes for movie 8. In the series, when Goku and Gohan turned Full Power Super Saiyans, they were in a league of their own compared to the rest of the Z-fighters, and it was even stated by Goku that in this form Gohan is stronger than him."

They still were, Heck, the only way they wouldn't be is if even someone like Krillin was capable of beating up Broly. However, that clearly wasn't the case (as Goku had told Krillin, Oolong, and Master Roshi to help the slaves evacuate the planet.). In regards to Gohan, didn't Goku tell Gohan to leave Namek despite knowing full well about Gohan's Hidden Power since at least the Garlic Jr. Saga (and receiving a Power unlock, not to mention)?

"Yet in movie 8, despite the fact that he looked like a Full Power Saiyan, Gohan clearly wasn't even close to Goku's level, in fact, he seemed to be even weaker than Ascended Saiyan Trunks."

Are you sure about that? I mean, Gohan was somewhat Damaged by Broly prior to turning FPSSJ (He was hit by LSSJ's Ki ram attack (you know that thing where Broly flies up to an opponent, has Ki develop near his chest, and then does a chest thrust causing an explosion of Ki energy that would knock the opponent far back), so it may be a contributing factor to his apparantly being weaker than ASSJ Trunks (I mean, Frieza had maintained heavy damage prior to becoming 100% Frieza, and the damage he sustained was heavily implied to be the reason why he was not capable of holding of SSJ Goku for long, as had he sustained none of the damages prior to becoming 100% he most certainly would have lasted longer). Besides, considering how Goku fared against the same attack (when trying to shield Gohan), he got part of his Ki burned off. When Gohan faced the Attack the first time around, while it did knock him back, it didn't seem to affect the outfit he wore at all, so there is probably a chance that he was at least a little bit stronger than Goku that time.

"The main characteristic of Gohan's hidden power was that even in his Full Power Super Saiyan form he was the strongest Z-fighters and could go even further than that by turning SSJ2. Considering this clearly is not the case in movie 8, saying Goku knew about Gohan's hidden power at the time but didn't want him to fight isn't a valid argument at all. The movies follow a separate timeline than the series, so just because Goku learned about Gohan's SSJ2 form in the Time chamber in the series, doesn't mean that it's the same case in the movies as well. "

Going by the fact that unlike, oh, say, Return of Cooler, for example, they actually tried to keep it reasonably within the timeframe it was supposed to take place in this movie, while it's true that the movies don't normally translate into the manga or the anime, there are instances where some Movies are close enough to be considered. Dead Zone, Bojack Unbound, the first Two Broly Movies, and Wrath of the Dragon are examples of movies that are close enough to the Anime and Manga to be considered semi-canon (as in, they try to keep it as consistent with the Manga/Anime canon as possible.). Even IF some of the movies aren't canon to the Manga, they are still at least canon to the Anime.

"Goku's attitude towards Gohan changed after fiding out about Gohan's hidden power. Before he would tell Gohan to leave during battles, but then he actually encouraged him to fight, even going as far as giving Cell a senzu bean to make it a "fair fight". This is more than enough proof that if Goku knew about Gohan's hidden power in movie 8 he certainly wouldn't have told him to leave, meaning Goku didn't know about it at the time. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the first time Gohan's hidden SSJ2 power was even mentioned and implied in the movies was in movie 9. "

He had already known about Gohan's hidden power since at least Dead Zone (Maybe he didn't know about the SSJ2 power at that point, but he certainly knew at least the fact that he had a hidden power in him.).

"It doesn't matter whether Piccolo arrived or not, Broly didn't kill Trunks with one blow. It's not the same to kill someone instantly with one blow, or to beat them up and let them die from the wounds and bruises."

Technically, SSJ2 Gohan didn't kill Bojack in one blow either, he killed him in two blows. Plus, it's not necessarily in the nature of a pure-blooded Saiyan to just "kill in one blow". They enjoy drawn out fights, sometimes even fighting below their power level just to enjoy the thrill of a fight against a character that's weaker than themselves.

Which reminds me, going by what Broly said at the start of Round 3 (I'm saying round 3 because Round 1 kinda ended with the whole Canyon chase in the first Movie. Then again, they may have been well through Round three due to the damages that Piccolo apparantly had been affected by offscreen), he certainly wasn't fighting at his then at the moment maximum power. In case you're wondering what I meant by that, Broly said "If you just let me kill you all before, you won't be dealing in this kind of pain now!", which implies that he was merely toying with them during the past few rounds (which would require someone to fight below their maximum.)

"Very well, I respect your opinion too. And what are these facts? Could you list them, so that we can discuss them? MajinFreeza 08:23, 24 August 2009 (UTC)"

Well, you see, I kinda did list them throughout my discussion.

“It wasn't verbally stated, but it was certainly implied that it was the case. I mean, other than the fact that we saw Goku punch that exact area that they (sort-of) showed him being stabbed, but right when the punch connected, Broly looked extremely surprised, and it cut to when Goku and Broly were babies. Just because Goku didn't say "I punched him where he was stabbed where he was a baby" doesn't mean it wasn't the case. “

First problem with that theory. Goku did not punch the exact same area where Broly was stabbed. You can see on the shadows in the flahsback that Broly got stabbed in the chest. Goku punched him in the stomach area. Same area? I don’t think so. Still, I’ll try to be cool about this and say that it could have been an animation error, but it’s not for sure that it was. Second problem is Broly being surprised. He was surprised when he saw Goku stop his punch and his (Goku’s) power rising. Broly was simply surprised that Goku became so strong that he could actually hurt him, which is something he couldn’t do while Broly was LSSJ up until that point in the movie. Third problem is the flashback itself. Like you just said, the flashback shows Goku and Broly as kids, not Broly getting stabbed. Think about it, if the animators really wanted to imply that Goku punched Broly in the stab wound, they would’ve shown a flashback of Broly getting stabbed just when Goku hits him, not a flashback of them being kids. The current flashback can easily be interpreted as an emotional scene. Broly hated Goku from the day he was born, and he held a grudge against him his entire life. So, the scene can imply that this is the end of Broly’s grudge, the person he hated from when he was a child (hence the flashback) is now about to defeat him. Interpretating that flashback as an implication of Broly getting punch in his stab wound just doesn’t make sense. Like I said, if that were the case, they would’ve showed a flashback of him getting stabbed instead. Think about it. Don’t you agree?

“You're going to need to cite a much better example than that, seeing how Movie 6 has many flaws that have not been corrected (like for example, Gohan not even having a SSJ form, never mind a FPSSJ form.). Movie 8, on the other hand, kept most of it's supposed timeplace intact. “

I don’t need to cite a better example. My point was to show you that DBZ movies don’t follow the timeline of the series. I agree with you that some movies have more flaws than others, but they’re all non-canonical to the main story line. That was the point of the example.

“They still were, Heck, the only way they wouldn't be is if even someone like Krillin was capable of beating up Broly. However, that clearly wasn't the case (as Goku had told Krillin, Oolong, and Master Roshi to help the slaves evacuate the planet.). In regards to Gohan, didn't Goku tell Gohan to leave Namek despite knowing full well about Gohan's Hidden Power since at least the Garlic Jr. Saga (and receiving a Power unlock, not to mention)?”

Well, yes. Krillin couldn’t beat Broly but I’m pretty sure Roshi could have. I mean he was about to kick Broly’s ass, when Oolong ruined the whole thing by kicking him out of the way. lol Okay, that was just a joke. Garlic Junior Saga? The Garlic Junior Saga occured after the battle against Freeza. Don’t you mean the Dead Zone movie?

“Are you sure about that? I mean, Gohan was somewhat Damaged by Broly prior to turning FPSSJ (He was hit by LSSJ's Ki ram attack (you know that thing where Broly flies up to an opponent, has Ki develop near his chest, and then does a chest thrust causing an explosion of Ki energy that would knock the opponent far back), so it may be a contributing factor to his apparantly being weaker than ASSJ Trunks (I mean, Frieza had maintained heavy damage prior to becoming 100% Frieza, and the damage he sustained was heavily implied to be the reason why he was not capable of holding of SSJ Goku for long, as had he sustained none of the damages prior to becoming 100% he most certainly would have lasted longer). Besides, considering how Goku fared against the same attack (when trying to shield Gohan), he got part of his Ki burned off. When Gohan faced the Attack the first time around, while it did knock him back, it didn't seem to affect the outfit he wore at all, so there is probably a chance that he was at least a little bit stronger than Goku that time. “

I see what you’re saying. Still, let’s think about that theory. Gohan gets hit by the ki ram attack, he gets damaged, but he can still fly and is ready to do battle, he’s only slightly bruised. Now we’re supposed to believe that that one attack to base Gohan managed to decrease the power of his Full Power Super Saiyan form from making him the strongest of the Z-fighters all the way down to making him weaker than Ascended Saiyan Trunks? That’s kind of silly to assume because that’s a very big power decrease. Even if Gohan did suffer damage from that attack, he wasn’t really that badly damaged when you look at him. It’s possible that his Full Power Saiyan form had decreased in power, but it certainly wouldn’t have decreased that much. Also, using torn clothes as a sign of which fighter is stronger, that’s not a very reliable source. A much more reliable source is simply to watch how well they perform in battle. It’s clear that Goku was a lot stronger than Gohan in movie 8 in both the first round against Broly (before Piccolo’s arrival) and after getting healed by the senzu beans. In both rounds Goku was able to take much more punishment than Gohan before going down.

“Going by the fact that unlike, oh, say, Return of Cooler, for example, they actually tried to keep it reasonably within the timeframe it was supposed to take place in this movie, while it's true that the movies don't normally translate into the manga or the anime, there are instances where some Movies are close enough to be considered. Dead Zone, Bojack Unbound, the first Two Broly Movies, and Wrath of the Dragon are examples of movies that are close enough to the Anime and Manga to be considered semi-canon (as in, they try to keep it as consistent with the Manga/Anime canon as possible.). Even IF some of the movies aren't canon to the Manga, they are still at least canon to the Anime.”

Yes, some movies can be considered easier to place into the timeline. However, that doesn’t mean that they do fit in. Movies are simply non-canonical (except maybe the two movie specials about Bardock and Future Trunks), as is most anime filler. This discussion is about whether or not Goku knew about Gohan’s hidden SSJ2 power during movie 8. Considering the way Goku treated Gohan in it (telling him to run instead of fight) clearly tells us that he didn’t, because otherwise he would’ve encouraged Gohan to fight.

“He had already known about Gohan's hidden power since at least Dead Zone (Maybe he didn't know about the SSJ2 power at that point, but he certainly knew at least the fact that he had a hidden power in him.).”

As I said above. In movie 8 it’s clear that Goku didn’t know about the power of Gohan’s SSJ2 form, because movie 9 is the first movie where that’s stated, and movies mostly follow their own timeline. Goku knew that Gohan always had enormous power inside him, but he also knew that Gohan could only release it for a short time period when he’s angry and after that his power gets back to it’s normal level. In the series, it wasn’t until the Time chamber training that Goku saw just how great Gohan’s inner power was and that it’s possible to actually master it in a way to achieve a new Super Saiyan form. In the movies however, this moment (when Goku realises Gohan’s inner SSJ2 power and that it’s time for him to learn to control it) is switched to movie 9.

“Technically, SSJ2 Gohan didn't kill Bojack in one blow either, he killed him in two blows. Plus, it's not necessarily in the nature of a pure-blooded Saiyan to just "kill in one blow". They enjoy drawn out fights, sometimes even fighting below their power level just to enjoy the thrill of a fight against a character that's weaker than themselves.”

I never said SSJ2 Teen Gohan could kill every opponent with one blow. I said that he could kill the Cell Juniors with one blow each and that each of them is at least as strong as Ascended Saiyan Trunks. But, since you did bring up Bojack, I might as well use him for comparison too. Unlike in movie 8, in movie 9 Gohan is a confirmed Full Power Super Saiyan, both in form and in power (he’s the strongest Z-fighter) and even then with the help of all his friends they were all outmatched relatively easy by Bojack’s crew. Bojack’s crew are probably even stronger than the pack of Cell Juniors (not so much because of Bido, Bujin, Kogu and Zangya but because of Bojack himself, who easily defeated Piccolo and Vegeta in 1 on 1 fights, and would probably do the same to the Cell Juniors). Considering this, Bojack’s crew is probably around the same level the Z-fighters were when they fought against Broly in movie 8, and again, SSJ2 Teen Gohan did much better against them then Broly did against the Z-fighters. Broly is a killing machine, he blows up planets, he kills people for kicks, that doesn’t sound like someone who holds back. Also, what many people don’t understand is that his LSSJ form makes it hard for him to hold back against anyone. You see, when he goes LSSJ, his body is full of power. In movie 8 he actually had to release random ki blasts just to keep himself from exploding. This is clear proof that he’s almost always at full power when he goes LSSJ. Do you understand?

“Well, you see, I kinda did list them throughout my discussion.”

I see. Well, if I’m not mistaking, this entire long discussion only has one small point. Decide whether or not movie 8 Broly is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. That pretty much sums it up doesn’t it? MajinFreeza 21:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• Just a thought... IF Cell would have won the kamehameha duel against SSJ2 Gohan he would have become much stronger due to the fact that he would have been near dead and the saiyan genes would made him stronger than a normal SSJ2. He could also absorb anyone on Earth before fighting Broly and so he might match him.—This unsigned comment was made by 62.159.242.114 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

The problem with that is that we don't know if Cell could absorb people after becoming Perfect. He was able to absorb in GT, but GT is already full of plotholes so I don't think we can trust it. Might match him? Why do people constantly believe that Broly is so much stronger than Cell? Seriously, where do you people get that information? I really want to know. And it better not be the DBZ video games because their information is not canonical. MajinFreeza 14:09, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Well, maybe not in Movie 8 with Super Perfect Cell (and that's a big maybe, considering how Krillin and perhaps even Goku seem to know Cell's full power prior to the Cell games [the former was right when he tried to test his newly attained perfect power on Krillin, the latter was during their meeting in the ring during the ten days], so they should know who would be the bigger threat. Plus, when Vegeta lost to Perfect Cell, he didn't seem afraid of Cell [or at least, not afraid enough to cower and refuse to fight], Broly, however, DID cause Vegeta to cower and refuse to fight.), but by the time Movie 10 happened, Broly would DEFINITELY overpower Super Perfect Cell (It was implied in Movie 10 that Broly had become significantly stronger since the last time they fought.).

I don’t believe I ever said that Broly was weaker than Perfect Cell, just Super Perfect Cell. Goku and Krillin might have known the power of Perfect Cell during those 10 days of waiting, but they couldn’t have known the power of Super Perfect Cell since that was a level of power that nobody (not even Cell himself) knew it could be achieved. There’s also the problem of the movies not fitting in the actual storyline. It doesn’t matter if the movies can be placed, they do NOT take place in the actual story. Also, it was never stated anywhere that Broly was a bigger threat than Cell. The reason Vegeta was so afraid of Broly was because of Broly’s TITLE (or form, however you want to call it). The Legendary Super Saiyan is (like the name itself states) a legend among Saiyans. He has the reputation of a powerful, ruthless killing machine. Vegeta himself states that he heard stories and legends about the Legendary Super Saiyan but didn’t know if they were true. A Legendary Super Saiyan is worshiped almost like a god by the Saiyans, of course Vegeta would be afraid if he saw one. However, just because he’s worshiped like a god doesn’t mean he is one. Goku, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo all have the ability to sense power levels, yet they weren’t afraid to fight Broly. Why? The only difference between them and Vegeta is that they never heard the story of the Legendary Super Saiyan. This is clear proof that the reason Vegeta was so afraid wasn’t because Broly was imensely powerful, it because Vegeta BELIEVED that Broly was imensely powerful, because of the legends about him. Where is your proof that Broly in movie 10 would “definitely” overpower Super Perfect Cell? Just because Broly grew stronger in movie 10 doesn’t mean he would overpower Super Perfect Cell because we never had a comparison between movie 8 Broly and Super Perfect Cell. MajinFreeza 08:47, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Well, barring the issue about his title, there's also the issue of how long it takes to charge an attack powerful enough to destroy a planet, and going by what Frieza said about holding back far too much power when he used the Death Ball prematurely on Planet Namek, even the amount of power exerted and sacrficed just to charge up the attack. With Broly, if we go by what his flashbacks show and his outright destruction of Planet Shamoa, he apparently needs far less time to charge up the attack to destroy a planet (The size of the Eraser cannon is basically similar to that of the typical Ki Ball, though it's destructive power is almost similar to that of Frieza's Death Ball, at the very least, which is especially evident by the fact that it took only a few seconds to charge up the attack when he destroyed Shamoa. Even with Super Perfect Cell's Solar Kamehameha, he needed to have about half an episode to charge the attack. And apparantly it was supposed to be large, going by the fact that the Kamehameha struggle had the beams becoming literally two hemispheres. Yeah, I know that the length was probably due to filler, but I don't think it matters anyways, seeing how we're talking about a character who hadn't appeared in the manga as well as a character whose appearance was a walking plothole [the latter was referring to Super Perfect Cell, BTW, since both the Japanese Anime and the Manga had him saying he revived due to his head remaining intact, despite Goku quite literally blowing away Cell's Upper half of his body, including the head, and he still survived]). Even IF Broly was indeed weaker than Cell, that was mainly due to Paragus lowering his potential by a significant amount just to keep him under control for most of his life after being outfitted with the Ring. If Broly had not been outfitted with the ring, he most likely would have been far stronger than what he was portrayed as in the movie. On a slightly related note, seeing how, going by the discussion, it won't matter if it's manga or not, Budokai 3's alternate scenario for Broly's Second Coming implies that the Omega Blaster was powerful enough to actually obliterate the galaxy. Yes, I admit the fact that the game was probably non-canon, but honestly, I don't think it matters, anyways, given the subject matter.

I see your points. Still, ignore the video games. The information in them is already full of mistakes. It’s like the programmers tried to create their own completely different version of DBZ instead of focussing on the actual material. If it’s not stated by the original creators, it’s not fact, no matter what the video games say. In movie 10 it was never stated or implied that the Omega Blaster can destroy a galaxy, it was only implied that it can destroy the Earth, and nothing more. We can’t really go by “what if” scenarios (like what if Paragus hadn’t controled Broly), we should go by facts. A large part of the fanbase thinks that Broly has some incredible potential of achieving unlimited power, which was never oficially stated. The best way to see if Broly would be able to beat Cell is simply to see their feats in battle and compare them. Broly overpowered SSJ2 Adult Gohan, Super Perfect Cell severely injured SSJ2 Teen Gohan (although that was mostly due to Gohan jumping in front of Vegeta and lowering his defenses, so I’m assuming Super Perfect Cell was close or equal to SSJ2 Teen Gohan, but not stronger). So, both of them trashed SSJ2 Gohan at one time during their lives. However, it was stated in the World Tournament saga that SSJ2 Adult Gohan isn’t even close in power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan, so that shows that Cell challenged a much more powerful Gohan than Broly did. That’s what makes this discussion so hard. Broly did better against a much weaker Gohan than Cell did against a stronger one, which really doesn’t give us a lot of proof, now does it? We don’t know how strong Super Perfect Cell’s Kamehameha (ordinary Kamehameha, not the Solar one) would be compared to the triple Kamehameha that was used to defeat Broly. It could be weaker, it could be stronger. Considering the triple Kamehameha was formed by three Super Saiyans, out of whom two were in a very bad shape (Gohan was exhausted and took a lot of damage, and Goten could barely walk), it’s not that strange to assume that even an ordinary Kamehameha (again, not the Solar one) from Super Perfect Cell (who is around the level of SSJ2 Teen Gohan) would be equal or possibly stronger than the Kamehameha. But, like I said, it’s just an assumption, but it’s also the reason why we can’t say for sure whether or not Broly’s stronger than Super Perfect Cell. MajinFreeza 11:56, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Broly can beat cell

I think Broly will destroy Cell and here is the reason. Everybody knows that both broly and Cell in their Super Saiyan and Perfect forms is way more powerful than your average Adscended,Ultra,and Full power Super Saiyan Forms.But when it comes to Cell using his power on a Super Saiyan Gohan his attacks hardly phasis Gohan (even though Cell is not at full power) and when Broly faces a Super Saiyan Gohan his attacks almost kill Gohan.Making Super Saiyan Broly more powerful than Cell in Perfect form.(Note that even though Broly was in his regular Super Saiyan form he was still more powerful than either an Adscended,Ultra,or a Full Power Super Saiyan.So it Can be said that Super Perfect Cell can stand up to a Super Saiyan 2,but Broly in is Legendary Super Saiyan form is a level between a Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan 3.Meaning Broly is more powerful than Cell.Also even though Cell can regenerate himself all broly has to do is shoot a Omega blaster on him and that should be enough power to keep cell from regenerating himself Cause it is said that The Omega Blaster is more powerful than a Father & Son Kamehameha.

There was no need to start a new topic, there’s a current Cell vs Broly discussion, you could’ve easily posted your comment there. It helps keep the pages more organised. It was never shown, stated or impllied that Broly in his regular Super Saiyan form is stronger than a Full Power Super Saiyan. If anything, Broly fought in his regular Super Saiyan form in movie 10 against Gohan. Gohan was in his base form at the time and the two seemed equal with Broly having a small advantage (but, like I said, Broly was in his SSJ form, while Gohan was in his base form). Again, where is your proof that Broly is between SSJ2 and SSJ3? Just because Broly overwhelmed SSJ2 Adult Gohan that doesn’t put him above all SSJ2s. Not all SSJ2s have the same power level. It was stated in the World Tournament saga that SSJ2 Adult Gohan isn’t even close to SSJ2 Teen Gohan in terms of power. In DBZ when somebody’s power level isn’t even close to somebody else’s that means that the stronger fighter can easily defeat the weaker one. Majin Vegeta was stated to be even stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan. It’s clear that Majin Vegeta would also easily overpower SSJ2 Adult Gohan in a fight (like Broly did). Does that mean that Majin Vegeta’s power is between SSJ2 and SSJ3? No, it doesn’t, Majin Vegeta is a confirmed SSJ2. This means that just because Broly overpowered SSJ Adult Gohan, that doesn’t put him between SSJ2 and SSJ3. It can easily put him at around the level of an average SSJ2 (since Adult Gohan is a weaker than average SSJ2). Where was it ever stated that the Omega Blaster is stronger than the Father-Son Kamehameha that was used to kill Cell? MajinFreeza 12:17, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

The Buu's

I feel Kid Buu is the strongest form (as it's his first and original, most unrestrained, and described as "pure evil" whilst his other forms are incarnations or evolutions from absorption with hosts or other entities.) - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 20:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Not to be rude of course, but I disagree with that thought. I do understand that Kid Buu is extremely powerful, unpredictable, and it makes sense that he would be stronger than some of the Buu's because of the fact that he is the original. But, I only believe that he would be stronger than some of the other Buu's forms only if he absorbed someone who was considerably weaker than Kid Buu(,the Z-Fighters being at a close enough level to add to his strength). But as far as the most powerful Buu goes, I believe that it would have to be Super Buu while having absorbed the most powerful fighter around, meaning Gohan after unlocking his power in the Buu Saga. In terms of real power, it would make sense for a form of Buu with the strength of the most powerful fighter nearby added to his own to be the strongest. Though Kid Buu is more dangerous from his lack of self control and endless love of destruction, I believe that Super Buu with Gohan absorbed is technically the most powerful. To put it simply, Kid Buu is more dangerous, but not stronger.

But, I do suppose that even that is debatable, especially since we can never know how much Kid Buu was toying with Goku and Vegeta and therefore know how much he could have been holding back. Even so, I believe that "Gohan Buu" is the most powerful Buu even if Kid Buu was holding back, since I think it would make sense for a form of Buu with added strength would be even more powerful than the insane original. --BrolyTheGod 22:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, BrolyTheGod, in the manga SSJ3 Goku stated that if he could get his energy to maximum he would be able to defeat Kid Buu. However, when Vegeta suggested that he and Goku fight Super Buu, Goku was terryfied and said that even in his base form Super Buu would kill them both, even though Goku could turn SSJ3 at the time as well. This is pretty much a hint that even base Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. Super Gohan Buu however, is definitely stronger than Kid Buu. In my opinion, he's not only the strongest Buu form, but also the strongest DBZ villain overall, but like I said, that's just my opinion. MajinFreeza 17:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

When he fight against Buu after he unlock his full strenght Gohan beat Buu without problems. When Vegeta ask the people for Power for Gokus Spirit Bomb and Gohan and all of the friends give as much as they can it was not enough. So i think Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu cause the good people he absorb lock his full potential.

After Kid Buu absorb the fat Kai he transform into his weakest form but i dont think that fat Kai is so weak. Super Buu absorb Piccolo what makes him stronger, Piccolo was totaly afraid of Eastern Kais Power and I dont think that Eastern Kai is so much stronger then fat Kai.—This unsigned comment was made by 87.174.107.159 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Omega Shenron vs. Oolong

There's seems to be some debate, but I'm pretty sure the little piggy could take Omega with two hands tied behind his back! -- 10X Kamehameha 20:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes! Scratch, Dr. Brief's cat is probably the strongest in the universe, that's why he never reveals his powers, but is said to be a master scientist assistant. It goes without saying that Oolong would win, as would Puar as well. JK. lol. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 20:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

on a more serious note, I have a question, if oolong shapeshifts into a powerful fighter would he gain his power level as well? If this is the case then of course omega shenron is dead because Oolong could then shapeshift into ssj4 gogeta with no time limit.Kakarot810 09:20, September 7, 2009 (UTC)kakarot810

Oolong never gains any power or strength when he shape shifts, and the time limit for Oolong's transformations is always 5 minutes. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 18:41, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Like when Oolong turns into the giant robot with the soup. Kerry 24

Super 17 vs. Baby Vegeta

I find this to be a very difficult battle to see a winner to, especially since it is obviously shown that both are practically evenly matched with there initial defeater Super Saiyan 4 Goku. With Bebi being able to transform into every available form he has including Golden Great Ape(but not including Super Saiyan 4 of course), I believe that after Bebi would see that Super 17 can absorb ki attacks, Bebi would then fight Super 17 without using ki attacks and after a long battle, eventually defeat him. What do any of you believe? agree or disagree?--BrolyTheGod 23:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Bebi Vegeta would have defeated Super 17. 17 started as a fusion of the two 17's, fused by purely scientific means. By this method, I do not believe that the resulting android would have gotten as large an effect as if fused by the fusion dance, or another "magical" method. In addition, Goku appears to do alright against the android using only physical attacks, but only really loses his advantage after pumping more and more energy into Super 17, culminating with a full power 10X Kamehameha. After this, Super 17 is nearly indestructible. As BrolyTheGod said, Bebi probably would've seen through this, and easy overpowered Super 17 with his powerful Golden Oozaru transformation. -- 10X Kamehameha 01:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect I don't think baby would win that easly my reason being that super doesn't just have the ability to absorb power he also has limetless power form the orignal "17" and yes baby would figure out his power absorbtion and go into hand to hand combat but he wouldn't be that overpowering and after "17" realised he couldn't beat baby this way he would blast the crap out of him when baby was expecting a punch. In the end i think super seventeen would win. Kerry 24

Dr. Gero vs. Dr. Myuu

Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu, creators of Super 17, are two evil scientists who are bent on the destruction of Goku. They both create a version of themself which is an android, but at very different times in the Dragon Ball series. Gero builds his body much earlier in the series, back before the first Super Saiyan 2. Myuu builds his body after a Super Saiyan 3 appears, and goes on to bring Baby into existence, a creature which likely would've killed Goku, had the Kai's not intervened. However, I have to give this one to Dr. Gero. Gero's latest incarnation is built specifically to absorb energy and fight, whereas Dr. Myuu always uses minions to defeat his enemies. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 07:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Gero simply because I don't think Myuu is capable of battle on his own; we never witness Myuu fight. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 02:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember Myuu having any impressive battle feats. Gero knows how to fight, he uses tactics during combat and he can absorb energy. I believe Gero takes this. MajinFreeza 15:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

King Vegeta v. Bardock

I was woundering because who you like would win if these 2 ever got to fight. Bardock got so much stronger towards the end of his life and king Vegeta was strong anyway ( being king and all ).

Peronally i think K.Vegeta would win because be would not be king if he was not the stronger figther on Planet Vegeta. But i would be a very close battle. because bardock was very strong before Frezia destoryed Planet Vegeta. Elder Kai Gohan 23:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

They were both at approximately 10,000 pl. Both would get demolished by Zarbon and Dodoria easily. But how would they fare against each other... I think King Vegeta would win just because he's known to be the elite of the Saiyan race at that point, even stronger than Bardock's team. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 02:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I wonder if Bardock's psychic ability would come in handy during the match. Perhaps the alien power would mix with his Saiyan heritage and grant him a sort of battle cognition when fighting such an epic battle. I know no such thing happened while fighting Frieza, but he never really had a chance there. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 02:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Bardock never really had a chance against any of Frieza's elites. However, considering that Bardock is supposed to be stronger than Nappa and as strong as King Vegeta (their pl is equal), the outcome is left to speculation. - User:PrinceZarbon/sig 02:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that if Bardock had had the oppurtunity to heal after his fight on Planet Meat, he may have been able to just barely defeat King Vegeta. User:Mr.Briefs,05:35,25 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point. After facing a near-death defeat, he might have gained an advantage over King Vegeta. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 19:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

From my personal judgment, I believe Bardock may have been able to take down King Vegeta, and here's why. After recovering from his battle on Kanassa the doctors specifically stated "He's going to be stronger than King Vegeta if he keeps this up!". At that point, Bardock's power level of the stated 10,000, had still a bit more to go. King Vegeta's pl was never officially stated, but I'd assume it may be somewhere within the range of 11,000 - 12,000. Anywhom, we saw Bardock take down 4 elite warriors in Dodoria's squadron with an impressive display of skill, before being badly damaged by Dodoria's blast. At that point, if Bardock were to have fought King Vegeta and not Dodoria's elite, I believe he could have won, and here's why. Despite King Vegeta probably still having a higher fighting power, that does not necessarily mean he'd win. Every instance we've seen King Vegeta he's been seen relying on brute force and heavy energy attacks, while Bardock, uses speed and cunning combined with his power to battle against foes (an example being holding an unconscious warrior in front of him to that his power would be masked on the scouters). In a battle of brute strength, King Vegeta would win, but it a battle of skill, Bardock would win. These are just my opinions based on judgments I've made.

talk contr

19:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan

This is a hot topic, so I thought I'd see what everyone thinks. Well? -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 08:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I have now though about that subject for at least a minute or two, and I couls not find a clear way to distinguish who is more powerful, but I believe that I have finally found a way to know. Ultimate Gohan was obviously more powerful that Super Buu, since he easily dodged all of his attacks towards him(not including when Super Buu morphed into a ball, but is that really counted as a hit if Gohan did not take damage from it?) and caused massive damage. And when Goku and Vegeta are both inside Buu's body and Super Buu figures out what is going on, and "goes inside his own body" while being in his normal state, Goku says that he and Vegeta would both die, even when Goku could transform into a SSJ3.--BrolyTheGod 18:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan is undoubtedly more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Gohan is seen thrashing Super Buu around like he was nothing, something Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks came no were near close to doing. During Gotenks battle with Buu (and I'm going by Funi dub for this one) Goku is asked by Supreme Kai if Gotenks is stronger than he is, in which Goku replies something along the lines of "Yeah I think so". We know Super Buu is more powerful than Fat Majin Buu, who is evidently weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. When Fat Buu's power's split, forming the Good Fat Buu and the Evil Fat Buu, we know there morph into Super Buu caused a substantial increase in power level, far beyond that of the original Fat Buu (before the evil/good power split). Super Saiyan Gotenks fared good but not great against Super Buu, leaving me to question if his power was possibly in the range of nearing SSJ3 Goku's power level (remember, this is a fusion, the increase in power is phenomenal). Then, it is made clear that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Buu (but the Majin's stamina and physical attributes cause him to resist the major damages), and we know that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than them both, and nearly as strong as Super Buu after he absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo. If SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku (which was never stated but is pretty obvious), and his power is added on to the power of Super Buu (who is already near even with SSJ3 Gotenks) and than add a bit more with Piccolo's power, than its plainly obvious if Gohan is able to somewhat hold his own against a power like that, it's pretty much 100% proof that he is far superior to SSJ3 Goku, who is evidently weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks, and Gotenks becomes a part of Buu's power! So, Gohan fights decent against a power that is Super Buu + SSJ3 Gotenks + Piccolo, and you're going to tell me that a Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who I believe is weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks, can defeat a power twice as strong as he is, doesn't seem likely. Hopefully that's a decent explanation for you guys.

talk contr

19:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Looks like I should have thought about it for more than two minutes. Your logic is practically perfect, since it all fits together. But wait, theres also the fact that Goku stated before his fight with Kid Buu to Vegeta that he could have killed fat Majin Buu if he wanted, meaning that he was holding back his power, making it debatable of how powerful SSJ3 Goku at his fullest would be compared to normal Super Buu. But I suppose that if Goku said that Gotenks was more powerful than him, it's true.--BrolyTheGod 17:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I dont think that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Sayan 3 Goku cause i think that Kid Buu is stronger then Super Buu.

After absorbing the Fat Kaioshin he transform into his weakest form, why? Cause the Fat Kaioshin is so weak? I dont think so.

Super Buu absorb Piccolo and getting stronger, Piccolo was so afraid of Eastern Kais Power that he wont fight him on the Tournament.

Is the fat Kai so much weaker? I dont think so. I think that the good of the fat Kai lock Buu´s full power. I think Buu could only use his full strenght only without any good in himself (You see that Evil Buu was stronger than Fat Buu). Super Buus Power growing after he absorbing Gotenks and the others but he has not his full power.

Another Reason why i think so:

If Ultimate Gohan is really stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, why they dont wish him to the Battlefield after Porunga restore Earth? He would beat Kid Buu if he is really so strong.

If Gohan really is stronger, why there is a Problem at the end? If Goku fail Gohan could kill Kid Boo easily and I dont think that this is really so.

And the ultimate Reason why i think Goku is stronger:

After Vegeta ask the People for Power for Gokus Spirit Bomb all friends, inclusive Gohan, give them as much as they can but this was NOT enough. Even after Goku himself talk to the human and even C17 give his Power it was not enough to defeat Buu.

But Goku say that as Super Sayan 3 with full Power he could beat Kid Buu.—This unsigned comment was made by 87.174.107.159 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

100% Power Frieza vs. Super Saiyan Goku

I know it sounds obvious that Goku would win, because he won on Planet Namek, but have you considered this..... •When Goku was fighting Frieza on Dying Namek, Frieza's energy was dropping rapidly because he was past his body's limit but Goku's power was rising. But if Goku's power had been at one point, albeit not rising, and Frieza's power was not dropping, maybe the outcome of the battle would have been different. Maye, just maybe, Frieza would have won. What do you think about this? --Special:Contributions/Tasfeen 06:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If Freeza's power wasn't dropping, he and Goku would've been evenly matched. Because of that the battle would've probably dragged out beyond those precious 5 minutes, the planet would've exploded, the lack of air would've killed Goku, and Freeza would have emerged victorious. Now, if we eliminate the planet exploding factor, we have to check out the anime and the manga. In the manga, Goku and Freeza were even at the beggining, so I'm guessing even without his power dropping, Freeza would've probably lost because Goku would probably find some way to kill him. In the anime, however, when Freeza went 100% he was owning Goku, so if his power wasn't dropping, he would've probably won. At least that's what I think. MajinFreeza 17:26, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I agree with you. Goku is a very resourceful warrior.Tasfeen 00:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

well, I wouldn't really say that the lack of air would kill Goku. Yes, Frieza did say that to Goku, but he was probably deluding himself, especially since even in the Manga, it was implied that Saiyans CAN breathe in space (Bardock's appearance in the manga pretty much is evident to show that Saiyans [or at least some saiyans] can breathe in space. Plus, how would Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz be able to still be living when they destroy planets for Frieza?) —This unsigned comment was made by 66.32.159.212 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

I don't think Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta were DESTROYING planets for Freeza. They were most likely conquering them, you know, going there, killing everyone, then "delivering" the empty planet to Freeza. Still, I agree that there are quite a few inconsistencies about the whole Saiyans not being able to breathe in space thing, such as Bardock, as well as the fact that Vegeta was completely willing to blow up the Earth in the Saiyan saga. Although, Vegeta was furious at the time, so it's possible he wasn't thinking straight. Still, I highly doubt Akira Toriyama would have had both King Kai and Freeza say that Goku can't breathe in space unless it were true. If Goku can breathe in space it would've probably been stated, or made clear in some other way. In this case, however, it can go both ways, it all depends on what you choose to believe. MajinFreeza 19:52, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I think we'd need a much better source than King Kai in regards to whether Saiyans can breathe in space, seeing how he seemed to have poor judgement far too many times for a supposed omniscient being. If I recall correctly, didn't he say that Piccolo should drink more than just water (which is despite the fact that Nameks only need Water to survive), was fooled into thinking that Frieza was killed twice (first time with the Spirit Bomb, second time with the whole issue about Frieza being alive), or heck, his thinking that Planet Namek was blown up DESPITE it only having 5 minutes to blow anyways. —This unsigned comment was made by 66.32.159.212 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

The "you'll need more than just water" statement was anime filler and not canonical to the manga. Still, I do agree that he's been wrong far too many times for a being that supposedly knows everything, but he's also had his moments of being right as well. The point is that both he and Freeza stated that Goku can't breathe in space, yet nobody ever stated that he can nor was it ever shown that he can. Why would Goku hurry so badly to find a spaceship and get off Namek if he can breathe in space? He can survive the explosion (if a nearly dead Freeza can do it, then Goku certainly can) and if he gets stuck in outer space he can just fly from one planet to another until he reaches Earth or if it's too far he can contact King Kai telepathically and have him tell his friends to wish him to Earth with the dragonballs. The thing is, we only have weak hints that Goku can breathe in space, while we have clear statements that he can't. I believe a clear statement beats a weak hint every time, but like I said, it can go both ways, and it all depends on what you choose to believe. MajinFreeza 06:54, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think the saiyans are very much able to breathe in space as shown two times one when bardock and some other saiyans are flying outside the planet when frieza blows their planet to bits, and another, when vegeta and nappa are shown flying in space when they destroyed arlia. I think he was desperate for a spaceship because he did not knw he could breathe in space. Then again, it's just my opinion.Kakarot810 07:17, September 9, 2009 (UTC)kakarot810

The destruction of Arlia was anime filler. It's not canonical to the manga. I heard that Akira Toriyama stated that the movie specials about Bardock and Future Trunks are the only canonical DBZ movies, but I'm not 100% certain. There's also the problem of whether or not Bardock was actually in space during his battle with Freeza. Some fans argue that they could've just been in the upper layers of the atmosphere. We'll probably never know. Still, I respect your opinion. MajinFreeza 14:03, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the upper layers of the atmosphere would reach that high. In fact, going by what Bardock, the Father of Goku's positioning of Frieza's spaceship, it was almost as if he was actually far enough away from the planet to be halfway between it and the central star (you know, the literal central star of a solar system.)—This unsigned comment was made by 66.32.159.212 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

I know, I also didn't think the upper layers of the atmosphere would reach that high, but don't forget that this is not the Earth we're talking about after all. It's a fictional planet, Vegeta. Who knows what kind of atmosphere it has. We'll probably never know. MajinFreeza 17:29, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, unless Akira Toriyama decides to make an encyclopedia that covers absolutely everything he knows about DB, DBZ, the movies (at least the ones that have a high probability of fitting into the timeline), and even GT, if needs be. (you know, something akin to that Harry Potter encyclopedia that is currently in the works by JK Rowling that will cover several things previously unexplained, including the exact process of creating Horcruxes)—This unsigned comment was made by 66.32.159.212 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

since Saiyans can't breath under water (seen when zarbon almost drowns vegeta)than I dont see how they can breath in space. Kerry 24

Then please explain how Bardock survived in Space, Kerry?

Frieza was injured from the spirit bomb. I think that took away some of his power. Frieza would have beeten Goku.—This unsigned comment was made by 87.23.161.38 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Look, there is an entire article about Saiyans breathing in space and I would rather not repeat the debate that was writen just above my article. Kerry 24

Kid Goku vs. Hercule

Who would win if Hercule as he is depicted during the Cell Saga fought Goku from the very first episode of Dragonball? User:Mr.Briefs,03:04, 26 August,(UTC)

That's a tough one. Kid Goku was able to take a bullet shot to the head when he met Bulma, and all he got was a headache, while Hercule was almost killed when Van Zant shot him. True, the weapons probably weren't of the same caliber, but still, considering this and how cocky Hercule can be, I'd say Goku would win. MajinFreeza 19:56, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Frieza vs. Perfect Form Cell

Who would win in a fight during the Great Sayaiman saga where Frieza and Cell first met. (Dankedude 01:38, September 21, 2009 (UTC))

Uhh, Cell? Lol. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 01:40, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

That may be true to an extent but what happened during his imprisonment in Hell. Did he just sit back or did he train in order to kill Goku? If Frieza was as obsessed with killing Goku like in the Trunks saga he may have continued to train. Even if he was training for a year his power level would have grown. Plus Frieza would’ve learned to use his 100% full power a lot better so if it came down to it perhaps Frieza may be able to win. In my opinion it would come down to their wits in battle not strength. (Dankedude 01:48, September 21, 2009 (UTC))

About 100% Frieza, wasn't it implied that the battle damage that Frieza received before he went 100% was at least one reason why he didn't last very long against Goku?

Actually that is right he also didn't last long due to his fatigue while in the stage. He couldn't maintain the stage because it was to much for his body. (Dankedude 21:17, September 21, 2009 (UTC))

Cyborg Frieza vs. 100% Frieza

Gohan says that Frieza was weaker than the one Goku fought but Vegeta sasys that he was stronger. Cannon wise Gohan saw him in when he was at 50% and Vegeta only saw him when he was about 3%. Whose word do we take?—This unsigned comment was made by 87.23.161.38 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Frieza vs. Trunks

I know that Trunks killed him but was the gap between their power levels as great as what most people think it was? A common misconception is that if two fighter have the same power level a fight between them would be an all out brawl. Humans have near the same power level but that does not mean that it would nessesarily be an even fight. Dodoria and Vegeta had close power levels but Dodoria probably sucked at fighting skill wise. Any way I think Trunks's sword played a big part in that fight plus Frieza may not have been at 100% power and he did take him by surprise with his attack. I know trunks says the weapon doesn't make the man to King Cold but I don't think Cold is as strong as Frieza.—This unsigned comment was made by 87.23.161.38 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Cold is stronger than Frieza, and Trunks was way stronger than either of them when he came to their time. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:27, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Trunks vs. Goku

If Trunks and Goku got serious with thier fight when they first won how would walk away as the champion super saiyan? —This unsigned comment was made by 87.23.161.38 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Goku demonstrates his superiority over Trunks by blocking his sword attack with one finger. I think Goku would win. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:27, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

When the Z-Fighters first sense Trunks' power, Gohan asks if it is his father because who else would try to take Friza on alone. Vegeta says it isn't Goku because there is no way Goku's power level could have increased that much in just one year, even if he (Goku) is a Super Saiyan. Therefore Trunks is stronger when Trunks and Goku first meet.—This unsigned comment was made by 99.11.5.244 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Vegeta also says that he is the strongest warrior in the universe several times. (In case you're unfamiliar with the series, Vegeta is never the strongest.) Goku shows how easily he can beat Trunks, and is therefore stronger. No second-hand character comments needed. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 00:17, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Future Gohan vs. Cell

The Start So if Mirai Gohan survived the Androids, what if Cell (1st Form) fought Gohan? I'd say...Gohan would win. :) Cell...in that forn...would lose, since the Semi-Perfect form lost to Super Vegeta. So Future Gohan vs. Future Cell...Gohan's win. The Plot But here's the twist. Android 17 & 18 was alive! If Cell were to lose but survive, he could absorb 17 to Semi-perfection. Then Gohan will go super. I'd say Cell was 320,000,000 in power and Gohan (if he trained very hard) was 310,062,850. The Battle So the two will fight but I think Cell would be victor. But it's hard if Gohan was near death. His power level will rise over 350,000,000. So it's a tie. Aftermath If Gohan won, he would match Perfect Cell in increased power. If Cell won, however, the Android and Cell Saga will happen but with two 17s... a Ultra Cell.—This unsigned comment was made by 75.172.138.231 (talk • contribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!