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Up to interpretation.

Akira has remained silent on the topic for the simple reason that as long as he does,you'll all keep bickering about it. Think about it from a business prospective, the more DBZ is talked about the better, so in my honest opinion, the answer will always be left up to you to determine. I believe, and this is just me, Goku's SSJ3 power and fighting ability > Ultimate Gohan's BUT SSJ3 has its setbacks, and Goku is no fool, when he mentioned that he couldn't beat Buu he took the power consumption into account. SSJ3 drains too much power for it to be effective. So Goku ALIVE using SSJ3 < Ultimate Gohan. Goku DEAD(Other World) SSJ3 > Ultimate Gohan because the effects of power consumption are negated. So you're both right. Ultimate Gohan has less setbacks so I think overall I'd have to give it to him, but in the rare case that they both die and fight in the other world, SSJ3 Goku would be superior. And thats just my opinion, its far from fact, just the best assumption I could make.


Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu and SSJ3 Goku could have beaten him alone but wanted to give Vegeta a chance to fight him. The transformation was temporary and wore off.


Those who read the manga all know it: Not at all!!!!!!!!!!

In fact, the Elder Kai's Unlock ability can only push out the hidden powers of the person. In Dragon Ball Z, Akira Toriyama hadn't thought of SS4 yet, so he has the strength of a SS3 without the transformation.

You cant have the "Strength of a SSJ3": SSJ3 is a form not a power level. Even Base Gotenks has the "Strength of a SSJ3"

Like the Elder Kai said: "I don't like these stupid transformations". Goku SS3 or Gotenks SS3 is still as strong as Gohan but the SS3 technique consumes a large amount of energy, but you can level up from SS3 to SS4. In fact, in DBGT Gohan never surpasses SS2 so it seems to be useless.

I have all the books and ive read all the mangas... Kid buu is the strongest of all hes transformations... and yes from all the the kai's he absorbed they mention that one of the kai made him less violent and ALSO diminished hes power level so when he transformed into kid buu he was 100% unleashed full power + 100% evil and yes if you check in a practical way, ultimate gohan is better than SSJ3 goky cause SSJ3 goku as so much power that it times TIME for him to reach hes MAX power WHICH is higher than gohans on the other hand, gohan is pretty much already at max power so yea AND since SSJ3 takes alot of energy, the human body *in DBZ of course* can not maintain it for very long thats it... unlike gohan he can remain in that form no consequences

no do to the fact that it realesed his full potential he was at max when his potential was unlocked he did transform the same way he normally does into a SSJ but he just went mystic because he is no longer able to transform into ssj if he trasforms from his normal state he will got into mystic form gohan, when he goes ssj, his hair, eyes and aura just stay the same in mystic form

Can we all please stop using the stupid FANBOY TERM "MYSTIC"? It makes me sick! Name one place in the manga or anime where anyone ever said Gohan was "mystic". There is no such place.

First entry has to see the credits before anything is said. As the creator of the Dragon Ball franchise Akira Toriyama gets to say whose the strongest.

except he didnt.

SSJ4 was not his idea. Yes he was the creator of the franchise but he onlty was in charge of the first to shows (dragonball and dragonball Z) The third anime adaptation, Dragon Ball GT was not based on his manga;

yes it was. gt incorporates many ideas present in the manga.

Except you're ignoring that GT was still NOT written by Toriyama. While it is true that it is based on his manga, it is not Akira Toriyama's work. That is why it's also not considered canon.

however, Toriyama was still involved in the project by supervising its production, although in a limited way.He left after the first couple episodes. Its stupid and shouldn't be part of dragonball at all because they change everything.

^"Its stupid and shouldn't be part of dragonball at all because they change everything." Well it is so deal with it.

To the guy who wrote the paragraph about GT. Where are you getting your facts from?


Concerning Gotenks: he probably is stronger as he almost beat Super Buu, but Gotenks held his own. Gohan epicly lost to Super Buu with Gotenks and Goku. SSJ3 Goku stated he could have beaten Kid Buu if he did it fast enough; but losing his energy prevented that. If Elder Kai unlocked Goku's power he would had KILLED Kid Buu.

proof? oh right your making things up out of your ass. goku said he could destroy kid buu as long as he had a minute to charge up but failed. kid buu has unlimited stamina "ultimate goku" would not, nor would he gain anything by the powerup as he has no latent power.

no doubt, because he potentail, unlike gohan, grows and he likes to train, enjoys it and pushes himself to the limit.So SSJ3 in general, mabey, ssj3 goku, hell yea.

To the guy comparing Gotenks VS Super Buu with Gohan VS Buutenks: Gotenks was an equal to Super Buu, taking blows as well as giving some. Gohan totally owns SBuu without getting a scratch. Yes, when SBuu absorbs Gotenks AND Picollo, he gainst the upper hand, because to his own power he added Gotenks SSJ3 power, and Picollo's intelligence and battle skills. So naturally, Gohan would lose that one. Besides, isn't Buuhan widely recognized as the strongest Buu? Stronger and Buutenks?

OK this is bs, in the show goku "used" to be the strongest in the beginning, key words "used to be", but once gohan came back after traning he became the strongest and no one else was able to beat him, this isn't mentioned in the series, but it was one of the "what ifs" that everyone was wondering. So gohan and goku fought and goku had to turn to ssj3 to keep his ass from diying, showing that gohan is the strongest. plus gt is completly out of control, what the hell is even happening there no one knows, gokus a kid what the hell??? So ya i agree with the guy that says that gohan is the strongest.

OK, in response to that dumbass guy who said "OK this is bs,": Gohan sucks his dads monkey balls, first of all, on the cover of all DragonBall Z games and in the beginning of all shows, Goku is more in the spotlight than his weak ass son which implies he's more strong. Okay, Ill admit, Gohan is AIGHT, but where do you think his skills come from? thats right, his Dad! Goku is a beast and whoever thinks not can also suck his hairy Donkey Kong balls and then get kahmie hamie haaaad.

Ok, this is to the stupid ass who said "Ok, in response to that dumbass guy." First of all no one uses facts from the game as proof because it full of shit just like you. Second of all thats not even how you spell kamehameha which showes how stupid you are (not just because you cant spell but also because you think that goku is stronger then gohan). Lastly the amount of spotlight doesnt determine shit, but ofcourse you wouldnt know that cause your a dumbass.

Goku's only in more of the spotlight is because he's the main character.

Oh no not again...Gohan would crush Goku goku said that gohan was stronger at the cell games did he not

ultimate gohan is far far far more powerful than any canon ssj3

Lets think about this logically shall we?

In the manga, shortly after he fights fat buu, goku tells piccolo that he wasnt sure if he could actually have beaten him, but he was certain that trunks + goten fusion could, and at this point he doesnt even expect them to reach ssj3, so this means he is expecting gotenks to be stronger than him even without ssj3. Meaning that Gotenks>Goku, no arguing, its canon fact. Gotenks was about equal to super buu, but gohan completely dominated him, therefore goku<gotenks<gohan, again no arguing, this is a fact.

But incase you're still not conviced (because you're stupid most likely), then lets look at a few other points, firstly goku never fought Buutenks, that scene was filler, and never happened, if goku had, he would have had his ass handed to him, so that argument about goku being stronger is invalid, in the manga what actually happened was, buutenks went to attack goku, but as he did, the fusion wore off inside him, prompting goku to say "thats it then, gohan can handle you now", see that? goku practically admitted that gohan fuck shit balls was stronger than him.

Secondly, Kid buu is not stronger than super buu. I dont care what the supreme kai said in the anime, in the manga he never used the word weakened, he said that the absorptions "calmed" buu, and yes, he did call kid buu the most dangerous, but only because he was 100% pure unrestrained evil. Another thing, when they are trapped inside super buu, after having freed all of them, goku says that buu is still too strong and would easily kill both of them, yet he is confident against kid buu, so super buu>kid buu, if you really dont get it yet, then im sorry for you tbh.

Oh one more thing, gohan dominates super buu, and goku says himself that super buu would easily kill him and vegeta, so seriously just give up thinking goku is stronger


No. I think that the ss3 transfermation is stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

except it isnt! ssj3 isnt a power level, its a transformation. gotenks ssj3 = weaker than ultimate gohan!

But there is no doubt that Ultimate Gohan is strong!! --- you're a moron, read the post above you, if you still believe goku is stronger then you are actually a dumbass, name any argument about how goku is stronger, i guarantee i can disprove it

I have all the books and ive read all the mangas... Kid buu is the strongest of all hes transformations... and yes from all the the kai's he absorbed they mention that one of the kai made him less violent and ALSO diminished hes power level so when he transformed into kid buu he was 100% unleashed full power + 100% evil and yes if you check in a practical way, ultimate gohan is better than SSJ3 goky cause SSJ3 goku as so much power that it times TIME for him to reach hes MAX power WHICH is higher than gohans on the other hand, gohan is pretty much already at max power so yea AND since SSJ3 takes alot of energy, the human body *in DBZ of course* can not maintain it for very long thats it... unlike gohan he can remain in that form no consequences

Goku is invincible!

Goku beat Hirudegarn while Gohan couldn't even touch him and he found Hirudegarn's weakness before Gohan.

wasnt it gohan who discovered it in the first place? and goku beating hirudegarn doesnt mean hes stronger than gohan because he beat a weakened hirudegarn while hirudegarn wasnt using his teleportation that he used to beat gohan. Also, Hirudegarn wasn't canon. It was from a movie, which wasn't made by Akira Toriyama.

Ssj3 Goku has the dragonfist which beats almost every character it was used against and at the very least serverly injured them

non canon move is hardly proof.

, Omega had to regenerate after being destroyed. Goku also has the spirit bomb and could've beat Kid Buu who was much stronger than Super Buu

wrong. kid buu is massively weaker than super buu, maybe hundreds of times weaker.

, as the more evil he became the stronger Buu got

wrong. the more people absorbed, the stronger he got. buu with gotenks absorbed stated he is the strongest majin ever. are you saying buu is a liar?

as Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu after he was born by evil absorbing fat. Kid Buu has all of Super Buu's powers

no he doesnt. not once did i see him use intelligence or polished fighting skills.

and is much more unrestrained and deadly meaning he's better than super buu. He also know instant transmission unlike super buu.

who probably could learn it by seeing it or absorbing kaioshin.

It also is stated Goku could've killed him if he used all of his ssj3 power.

he tried and failed.

No he didn't. He never got to full. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 19:53, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan and every other Z fighter and living thing on Earth had to give up their energy just to kill kid buu meaning his power surpassess Gohan's power.

no gohan could have done it alone but vegeta wanted the earthlings to save themselves.

A full powered version of a ssj3 Goku could've beaten Gohan.

except thats impossible in every way.

Kid Buu is eviler, more unrestrained, more reckless and less skilled than any form of Super Buu. Super Buu w/Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Picollo absorbed is the strongest, smartest, more skilled Majin, even if he's not as evil. The see and learn thing is a trait that all Majins have, from the little one to the fat one. And Gohan was faaaar faaar away from the Kid Buu battle, so he couldn't fight him. If he had, he would have won, as Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu. And as such we conclude, since SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu and UltGohan > Kid Buu => Ult Gohan > SSJ· Goku

Gohan is the strongest charcterr unaided by fushion whih means he's stronger than kid buu. the reason for kid buu being stronger than is because of DBZ logic theres no dicernable way to tell, but if Ultimate Gohan was there Kid buu would be owned

Ultimate gohan is much stronger than a SS3. First of all, the strongest state of Buu is when he absorbs gohan. Kid buu is only a tougher fight because he is unrestrained ,doesn't wear down from fatigue and regenerates faster. Because buu absorbed the others, he gained their flaws too which made him wear out in battle. Gohan has a higher power level. Is Gohan the strongest? Not by a mile. Gohan is stronger on the surface, but when it comes to technique, Goku's your man. Gohan has alot of power but doesn't know how to use it. Goku has been training all his life as Gohan sits down and does his homework. That's why Goku could beat Kid Buu and not gohan. It's also why when Goku and Vegeta, two trained warriors fused, they could beat the strongest form of buu blindfolded.


Those who believe Goku is stronger, take into account that Goku drew energy from earth, and other lifeforms around the universe, so wouldnt that mean Goku didnt actually do anything except direct the energy towards buu? Theoretically, couldnt any strong warrior perform that?

By the way this is just a question

ssj 3 is the winner

Ssj3 goku is strongest because ultimate gohan could'nt hurt gotenks buu while ssj3 goku managed to do so .

goku did not fight buutenks. nor did he ever hurt him buutenks never existed in the manga either.
Kid buu saga dvd

goku ssj 3 vs kid buu


Even if Goku has the ssj3 i think that Gohan has a better transformation. Ssj3 may be powerfull but it burns alot of energy fast while Gohan in his ultimate form is Very strong and has the advantage of lasting longer then the ssj3.SSJ4 Vegito 12:06, June 6, 2011 (UTC)


Gohan is the strongest non-fused character at the end of Dragon Ball. 13:52, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's actually pretty obvious, in both the manga and anime and dub. Goku Super Saiyan 3 could'nt beat Majin Buu, and even fusion Gotenks Super Saiyan 3 was equal to Super Buu, Gohan however could have finished Super Buu off easily and could finish off Super Buu with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo as stated by Goku. Therefore is Gohan stronger than Super Saiyan 3


Though Goku said he and vegeta couldn't beat super buu note that it was super buu/gohan so it was a lot stronger than normal.

wrong. goku specified that even though buu was back to normal, they STILL couldnt win.

Goku also always uses his unique foresight that forces him to make certain decisions. It's possible GOku know what would happen if Buu absorbed their fusion so he could've done it for that purpose. Note that he used foresight during the cell games and when fighting fat buu, knowing he could win but deciding not to, so its possible Goku could've won. When Goku was letting Vegeta get beat up it was so he could gather energy to beat kid buu who is just as strong as super buu, canon.

wrong. kid buu is nowhere near super buu.


look...Gohan dominated Super Buu, while ssj3 Goku was having trouble with Kid Buu, who i think is a lot weaker than Super Buu. So yes, ultimate Gohan is stronger than an ssj3. Just saiying kid buu is way more powerful than super buu its true because he almost killed a ssj3 while super buu still technically beat Ultimate Gohan


Goku had only used the transformation like maybe 4 times. So he hadn't mastered it, but at that moment maybe Gohan was stronger. Plus Kid Buu is stronger then super Buu. So since SSJ3 Goku could hold his own for a good amout of time. I'd say he may be stronger then Ultimate Gohan, but still Goku hadn't mastered SSJ3. Then again at the time it stilled drained a lot of Goku's energy.

No, not at all.

Ok, first of all, Super Buu is not stronger than Kid Buu for multiple reasons: One being that in the anime it was stated that Super Buu wasn't stronger than Kid Buu, and Goku was bewildered at this saying, "How can he be getting stronger instead of weaker?"

kid buu had not appeared when goku stated that.

Another thing being that Gotenks was equal to Super Buu at Super Saiyan 3 while Goku, since he was stronger than Gotenks,

where is this established?

probably would've thrashed Super Buu, and Goku also could have beaten Gotenks Buu, but was trying not to kill him so he could save Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo.

is that why gotenks buu (who can sense ki) said goku was trash? is that why goku was desperate to fuse with gohan?

So, if this is true, and Gohan was too scared to fight Super Buu, than Goku had to be stronger than Gohan. Another thing being that the Elder Kai said Goku and Vegeta were 2 of the 3 strongest fighters in the universe, Gohan COULDN'T be the third because at the time, SUPER BUU obviously was.

you absolutely imbecile, you just claimed ssj2 vegeta > ultimate gohan. gohan was DEAD at the beggining of the kid buu battle, so obviously, vegeta and goku HAD to be 2 of the 3.

Agreed. Btw, Elder Kai said they were two OF the strongest, not the two strongest.

And since I really don't need to go into details about how Goku held his own against Kid Buu, I think I'm done here.

Hey, want a hint? SIGNATURE.

Okay, anyway... If you go by the MANGA, you will find that Kid Buu is far more ruthless, uncontrollable, and unpredictable, NOT POWERFUL. Gotenks was barely equal to Super Buu. Ultimate Gohan was far stronger. When Buu absorbed Piccolo and Gotenks, Buu became stronger again. When he lost Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan was stronger again, AS STATED BY GOKU. Goku himself, as a SSJ3, could only keep up with Fat Buu, not Super Buu, or Piccolo Buu, or Gotenks Buu. When Elder Kai made that statement, every one else was either killed or absorbed by Buu, making them as good as dead, so OF COURSE GOHAN COULDN'T BE ONE OF THE STRONGEST. Yeah, Goku held his own against Kid Buu... what's the relevance? UberDarkGuardian 03:49, June 7, 2011 (UTC)

^^ I just said that Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu which proves your ignorance.

. And how can you be "barely equal" to someone? If you're equal, you're equal. There's no such thing as "barely equal." Another thing, in the manga, Goku NEVER fought Gotenks Buu so in the manga it is unknown who is stronger (Gotenks Buu or Goku)

yes it is known. goku was desperate to fuse with gohan to fight gotenks buu, and gotenks buu called goku weak and small fry compared to him, thats how he referred to tien.

AND like I said, Goku and Vegeta are 2 of the 3 most powerful warriors in the universe and Super Buu had to be the other one. After all, Kid Buu had all of Super Buu's techniques and he had Instant Transmission in addition to that.Also, Ultimate Gohan is just Gohan's form where his ful potential was unlocked, which was halfway between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.

but no it isnt. ultimate gohan is not "halfway between ssj2 and 3" considering they are forms, not specific power levels. gohan cannot be between forms as their power varies from person to person. gohan is alot stronger than gotenks ssj3 and MASSIVELY stronger than ssj3 goku. 06:40, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Also, don't edit people's forum posts. IT'S ANNOYING.

^^ Everything you said is going by the inaccurate english dub. I dont feel like starting a arguement but Akira Toriyama said Gohan is the strongest unfused character by the end of Z.

no he didnt. unless you show me an official source.

Also Gotenks is far stronger then Goku aswell. Goku even said so himself. Ss4 gogetaLssj4 13:22, June 7, 2011 (UTC)

No they didn't say that, but the guy who said "2 of the 3 most powerful warriors", you killed your own argument by saying "of". If they're 2 OF the most powerful warriors, they don't have to be the two most powerful, as in first and second place. They could even have been 4th and 5th place and the statement would be true.

When will you learn, the manga is the best source for DBZ not your F***ing anime serie! Goku stated that he could have whipped Majin Buu easily, but that the Earth needed new saviors so he let Goten and Trunks try to do the job. After that, Gotenks SS3 and Ultimate Gohan fought Super Buu and lost,

um...gotenks was kicking his ass before running out of time. and ultimate gohan wasnt even scratched until buu absorbed gotenks.

but SS3 Goku fought Kid Buu and won.

i seem to remember goku running out of power and needing the power of everyone to win.

Okay, anyway... If you go by the MANGA, you will find that Kid Buu is far more ruthless, uncontrollable, and unpredictable, NOT POWERFUL. Hey dude can you read? That what make him stronger. When he absorbed the Kais he kept their traits but like this he's pure strong evil, and Vegeta said in the same manga that even if he's smaller, he's way stronger.

no he didnt. vegeta said kid buu was stronger than he initially thought but neither the kais nor goku said anything about kid buu being stronger BECAUSE hes evil. in fact having no one absorbed anymore decreased his power. this is why goku held his own against him yet cannot stand a chance against super buu. 06:40, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, Goku's always the stronger and when we think he's behind, he's always a step ahead.

no goku is not the strongest. gotenks and gohan surpassed him. goku is honest when it comes to who he can and cant beat.

All the real fans will notice it and stop worrying who's the strongest. GOKU is the strongest and VEGETA the styliest, that all! SuperGogetaSS4

Dude when will you stop don't you get it, AKIRA TORIYAMA HMISELF stated that at the end of dbz gohan was the strongest UNFUSED character thus rendering anything and everything you say against this, useless.

where? oh right. nowhere. stop making shit up

Where did you see this statement? You're is close friend? Anything that doesn't come from a camera interview or official magazines or newspapers can't be take seriously. So unless you're dumber than you look you'll show proof of what you're are saying because what I said was pure manga source (the book Akira Toriyama wrote nothing less) and if you have a minimum of understanding skills you should have read it into this object with pages, ink, drawing and dialogues. What do we call this object again? Oh yes! A MANGA! SuperGogetaSS4

You're an idiot. The manga never said that.

Ask Akira Toriyama About Mastered SSJ3

Goku never fully mastered ssj3 so it might be stronger and if we're talikng about the energy drain ssj had a lot of side effects if you used it before mastering it. It took Goku over a year to master ssj to go to fssj which means with a few years of practice the side effects would've been gone and if we're using GT Goku's child body never mastered or even used ssj3 for that matter so it doesn't count. As proof Goku with his child body couldn't use instant transmission a skill he used often as an adult.

yes he did use ssj3. and prove it can even be mastered. you cant. he had 5 years training uub to master ssj3.

No winner in this

Personally, I think Ultimate Gohan is stronger, but there are a few weird things that could make it go either way. First of all, everyone knows about SSJ3 Gotenks having a slight advantage over Super Buu, and Ultimate Gohan had an overwhelming advantage, thus making him stronger. To contradict this, we can't technically say that Gotenks was the quintessential SSJ3, because he could only hold that form when fused, and, after all, he's a kid with much less fighting experience. Now we know that Goku said he could have beaten Majin Buu (and he said this pretty definitely) when he first met him, and he seemed to be holding his own against Kid Buu, but concluded that though they were about equal, Goku didn't have enough power to actually beat him. That's when he started powering up, because he was pretty sure he could beat Kid Buu fully powered. (Also think about how much more dangerous Kid Buu is to fight than Super Buu. Strength isn't everything) We know either Buutenks or Buuhan could beat Goku, but what about the Super Buu that Gotenks faced?

goku already said that ssj1 gotenks is stronger than he is, and that even goku and vegeta combined cant beat normal super buu.

Haha, nice try, but no. Go back and read the manga.
i did. i stated two manga facts. what manga facts do you have?
The fact that those facts weren't in the manga.
if you think so, re read it. ill even post the chapter numbers and translations if you want
BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 02:28, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think Goku is a more powerful SSJ3 than Gotenks

which has no evidence and goes against everything goku has said about gotenks, and what piccolo and gotenks himself say. base gotenks > ssj3 goku.

Again, you fail. By the way "I think" means I'm stating an opinion.

, so perhaps he could beat Super Buu as badly as Ultimate Gohan did. On the other hand, when Piccolo Buu was made, Goku said "Gohan can take you now". You could construe this a few ways, you could say Goku was saying that because he himself couldn't beat him, or perhaps simply because Gohan was already fighting him, so he wanted to let Gohan finish the job, or because he didn't want to transform into SSJ3 because it consumes so much power, so he thought Gohan was more well-equipped since he was already powered up. Anyways, debate will get you nowhere because someone can always pull more speculation out, so that was just a summary of points.


Well in my opinion Gohan is stronger than goku because Gohan could easily won vs Super Buu. When Vegeta and Goku say that Kid Buu>Super buu it was when it was transform to the Ultimade Buu when he absorve the North kai That strong Kai. It is obvious that Kid buu is weaker than Super Buu because Goku could na.ot even handle Fat Buu. Gotenks was equal with super buu that it was far stronger than super buu.And ofcorse Gohan that was stronger than Gotenks is obvious that was also stronger than Super Buu. Now about spirit bomb and gohan giveing his energy and it wasnt enough. Well gohan was no Mystic when he gave his energy. I mean it would be a lot smarter for Trunks and Goten to fuse and became gotenks ssj3 and give energy but the didnt.As you know from previous sagas. I thing it was vegeta or sayian saga that to use spirit bomb you need pure energy or at least a decent energy.Now gohan couldnt give his energy because to unlease the power of SSJ2 you need the feeling of wrath and with that feeling your energy is impure.And if you remember Gohan tell to the elder Kai how he could unleashe his power and he say do your Super Sayian trick. So mystic Gohan accualy use his SSJ2 power so the energy of his can not be used to the spirit bomb because he is inpure. Well if you disagree with me look how Gohan was acting when he was Fighting Cell. Same goes to SSJ3 gotenks.


Guy above

did you even read what you just said? you make no sense and you sound mentally disabled. goku ssj3 is stronger than ultimate gohan. you say goku could not handle fat buu? goku clearly stated that he could have beat fat buu before, but didn't just because he wanted to give gohan and the kids a shot. all that stuff you said about the spirit bomb makes no sense and it makes you sound messed up in the head.

Stop it username Broly Rocks

stop editing posts. it is very annoying. there is no need to divide up other people's posts and insert your 2 cents. so just stop. if you wish to make a point, why don't you actually try posting something rather than editing other people's posts? Specialbeamkamehameha 15:28, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


Goku thought Gotenks would be a match for Fat Buu not Super Buu, meaning he didn't rank their power that highly.

"you cant have the "strength of a ssj3" ssj3 is a form not a power level. even base gotenks has the "strength of a ssj3"" 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Base Gotenks = SSj3 Goku, WTF! Gotenks was barely able to keep up with Super Buu in his SSj3 form, whereas Goku was stronger than Fat Buu, and >= to Kid Buu. He was able to fight Super Buu Gotenks Absorbed for a short time.

gotenks wasnt "barely keeping up". he was kicking ass. if he didnt run out of time he would have wiped super buu out. whereas goku was weaker than kid buu. he tried powering back up to full power but was left too tired. through superior stamina, kid buu defeated goku. and no goku wasnt able to fight buutenks at all. that was anime filler only. show me a manga scan of goku fighting super buu and ill submit. 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Back to the point, Gotenks is HIGHLY unskilled in fighting, and only has an impressive power level. He just wasted time and fucked everything up.

so what? he still has the power level. gotenks is a fighting genius with natural talent beyond that of any full blooded saiyan. thats why he was ssj3 in just a week of training and thats why he kicks goku's ass. power levle is all that matters in z. you should have realised that by now. 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Okay wtf did you say? Gotenks is a fighting genius?! Gotenks is a fighting IDIOT! For all his power with fusion, the only thing he was able to amount to was being <= to Super Buu. He used flashy attacks that he thought were "cool", and he never actually fought Buu hand to hand. As you recall, when you witness someone achieve a level of SSj, it makes it a hole lot easier to understand how to do it. Goku's transformation was arguablly the hardest (to ssj) and after that it was childs play, not because of natural talent, but because they figured out how to do it from others. And are you seriously arguing that Gotenks has more 'natural talent' than Goku?!

yes. hes a fighting genius in terms of creating powerful techniques like ghost kamikaze in just one week. hes also a genius at rapidly discovering new levels of ssj without someone else showing it to them first. his flashy attacks tended to work. as seen by them beating buu so badly that buu feared gotenks and got pissed off, having never faced anyone strong enough to cause scratches and wounds all over his body. as i recall, gotenks went ssj3 without anyone ever showing him how. gotenks is a genius at having this natural ability to fight. goku had to train all his life to get to his skill level. goten and trunks had about one year, maybe less and they have already blown goku out of the water, even at their age.

you act like super buu is a pussy and not much of an opponent. but he is, friend. he is. gotenks being on his level is absolutely astounding and amazing, especially at such a young age. their potential is higher than gohans, practically limitless.

and what do you mean no hand to hand? of course gotenks fought him hand to hand! rewatch the fight! 06:46, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

"In the manga, shortly after he fights fat buu, goku tells piccolo that he wasnt sure if he could actually have beaten him, but he was certain that trunks + goten fusion could, and at this point he doesnt even expect them to reach ssj3, so this means he is expecting gotenks to be stronger than him even without ssj3."

He thought that a fusion would be a good match for Fat Buu, and I don't blame him because either Gogeta or Vegito would have destroyed Fat Buu in seconds. He compared the results he thought he'd get by fusing with Vegeta, to Gotenks. Basically he sorely overestimated Gotenks, as Gotenks failed. Gotenks WOULD NOT beat Goku as he lacks the skill to fight at that level. He never really fought Super Buu he just through his shitty unpredictable attacks at Buu.

no he never "overestimated" gotenks. gotenks made the mistake of fighting in base form first. since goku had no idea super buu would appear, nor would goku ever stand a chance against super buu whereas gotenks had an upper hand, this means goku has no chance in hell of beating gotenks in a fight. he all but admitted ssj1 gotenks is stronger than him. prove to me goku overestimated gotenks please. 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Goku SSj3 is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, in GT

Yes, I went there, GT. And who the fuck said it wasn't canon? It is a published work of the Dragon Ball franchise. Sure it wasn't part of the Manga, but it is Canon. I think is speak for EVERYONE when I say GT Goku SSJ3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan.

no you dont. and your wrong. goku ssj1 in gt is comparable to what ssj1 gotenks was back then. assuming the same multipliers, gohans still stronger as long as goku has no ssj4. 07:11, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, since Goku Gt = Z Goku SSj, if he went SSj3 he would count as 50 times Z Goku SSj3, which you cannot argue is far stronger than Ultimate Gohan in Z, not to mention in Gt. In Gt, Gohan didn't train and fell behind and he sucks anyway, whereas Goku kept training.

wrong. gohan doesnt suck and he did train. he had to in order to be ssj again despite being ultimate in z. its in the gt perfect files. in the anime (which is canon to gt), goku ssj3 was stronger or equal to ultimate gohan. the manga doesnt really apply when talking about gt. 06:35, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Wtf your actually telling me that Goku was not strnger than Gohan in GT?!

i said stronger/equal. read it again. 06:39, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Until Vegeta was able to reach SSj4, EVERYONE ELSE other than Goku was USELESS by themselves. And we already established this, GT base Goku (or maybe just SSj) = Z Goku SSj3.

no they were not useless. in fact goku never won a fight by himself. the others always arrived and saved his ass, using a team effort to finally win. no you didnt establish shit. goku in base is not as strong as ssj3 goku in z. 06:39, August 19, 2011 (UTC)


Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks, as shown by him easily beating up Super Buu. SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks had enough strength to defeat Super Buu, but didn't due to his childish nature and time limit of the fusion. So Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Goku. Janemba4eva 14:25, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

On one side yea on the the other no

Yes ultimate Gohan is indeed stronger than ssj3 Goku BUT at that time Gokus ssj3 transformation was untrained so by the end of DBZ I believe Goku surpassed Gohan again but of youre talking about when super buu was around then yes he was. 02:45, August 18, 2011 (UTC)BrownPrince2011

Come to think of it

When was there any evidence that Goku wasn't stronger than Super Buu? We never saw anything to suggest that sord of thing.

"wrong. kid buu is massively weaker than super buu, maybe hundreds of times weaker."

What? WTF are you talking about? Hundreds of times what gave you that idea? For all we know, either one may be stronger.

from what we KNOW, base gotenks is more powerful than ssj3 goku whos equal to goku.

Except base Gotenks fought Fat Buu and got his ass handed over to him, while SSJ3 Goku could have beaten him. SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks.

base gotenks x 50 = ssj gotenks. ssj gotenks x 7 = ssj2 gotenks. ssj2 x 4 = ssj3 gotenks. so your looking at a gap of more than 3000 times121.222.11.242 04:05, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

You're wrong. SS2 is only a 2 times multiplier. So the gap is only 400 times at the most, which still proves nothing. The gap may not exist at all.

"no he doesnt. not once did i see him use intelligence or polished fighting skills."

Dude, wtf? They have a great fighting style and it is "polished". And when did you actually see Super Buu fight hand to hand? And btw none of these "traits" are powers. Kid Buu is insane, that is why he cannot express thing like Super Buu. This trait could actually make Kid Buu more formidable.

plenty of times in the original manga. kid buu being insane means hes dumber and weaker

"no gohan could have done it alone but vegeta wanted the earthlings to save themselves."

That doesn't even make sense. If Gohan's power was so great it should have been enough for the Spirit Bomb.

well it wasnt. he couldnt have given all of his power, goku only took a portion. too much could kill gohan. and gohan didnt even look one bit short of breath when he gave his energy. 04:05, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

"A full powered version of a ssj3 Goku could've beaten Gohan."

"except thats impossible in every way."

Except it's fully possible, has been done in GT, and your a complete idiot.

gt is non canon and im smarter than you. there is no possible way for goku to ever beat gohan. hes thousands of times weaker.

GT is canon you fucking idiot. You saying your smarter than me has no basis, and saying "thousands of times weaker" just proves how much of an iidot you are. If there were 1000 SSj3 Goku's during Buu saga, they would easily kill Buu, whereas you fail. In GT, Goku is stronger in his SSj2 form, let alone his SSj4 form, which you also claimed could not beat Gohan in the above post. Why should I think your anything but a troll with your retarted, uneducated comments.

"Gohan is the strongest non-fused character at the end of Dragon Ball."

I highly doubt that is true. And if it is true that he was the strongest in the Buu fight, he isn't the strongest after the 10 year gap.

"wrong. kid buu is nowhere near super buu."

You who writes in bold, where the fuck did you get it in your head that Super Buu is SO much stronger than Kid Buu. Tell me how you know this. It is entirely possible that Kid Buu is stronger, and more formidable in many ways.

for one, the massive MASSIVE gap between ssj2 gotenks and ssj2 goku, means the gap carries on to ssj3.


YES WE DO. its in the manga right in fucking front of us.

here goku is saying they have no possible way of taking on super buu

here kid buu is shown to have been damaged by ssj3 goku, an impressive feat.

here goku is saying hes not at full power, and if he was,he could defeat kid buu.

here gotenks in ssj3 beats the living shit out of super buu then declares he will wipe him out so theres nothing left to regenerate with.

Zenoftw"I may be just a pothole in the road to you big guy, but it's going to be one hell of a deep pothole." - Tien 16:26, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Actually he does have proof, Super Buu has two Kais absorbed in him while Kid Buu has nothing in him. Kid Buu is just Pure Unrestrained Evil(Kinda like broly) that is more dangerous than the other forms because he doesn't mind using it to blow up every single planet, that in no way means that he's more powerful.

Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I, am Supreme GohanGohan ssj2 17:40, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
It doesnt mean Super Buu is more powerful either.
"I may be just a pothole in the road to you big guy, but it's going to be one hell of a deep pothole." - Tien 17:43, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

"Super Buu has two Kais absorbed in him while Kid Buu has nothing in him" That IS proof.

Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I, am Supreme GohanGohan ssj2 17:44, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
So are you implying that Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu?
"I may be just a pothole in the road to you big guy, but it's going to be one hell of a deep pothole." - Tien 19:57, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
Um no, Fat Buu has a childish and does not realize his full potential, Super Buu on the other hand knows what he's doing and utilizes all his strength that includes the Kais strength.
Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I, am Supreme GohanGohan ssj2 04:39, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Gohan is more powerful but Goku has more experience. Goku would whip Gohan because of battle experience and being a full-blooded saiyan, but given the same age and experience level Gohan would kill Goku.

it doesnt matter if he has more experience or not. in the manga, if you have a huge power, you win. experience be damned. could roshi beat raditz? could freeza beat cell games gohan? if the answer to these is yes, then yes goku can defeat ultimate gohan

I said this already. Raditz is leagues above Roshi, and everyone knows it, that's why Roshi couldn't take on Raditz. Goku and Gohan are the same order of being however. Wait, why am I arguing with you? I agree, Gohan would win. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:22, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

The same goes for Gotenks, they may be more powerful than Goku and Vegeta but those two have way more experience and skill than the raw power of Gohan and Gotenks.

If Gohan was as old and had the same experience as Goku it still wouldn't be good enough. Goku has the advantage of being Goku, an attribute which enables you to: surpass your limits, understand people's power, develop winning strategies, have the answer, and during all this still have a good time and be calm.

no goku has almost never won a battle where hes the weaker fighter without genki dama. experience is useless, except that he can understand when hes gonna die faster than two little kids.

You who writes in bold, I realise now that you are a complete TROLL, and refuse to speak with you any longer, since you almost never give any evidence and make absurd claims. Good day

actually i do give evidence. you choose to ignore it out of fanboyism.

ssj3 is stronga

gohan unlocked his full potentiel so it was probably only ssj2.5 he never beat the ssj2 level

theres no such thing as ssj2.5 nor is ssj2 a set power level. gohan far surpassed ssj3 gotenks based on their individual fights with super buu. ssj3 gotenks is exponentially stronger than ssj3 goku. so how can gohan not beat the "ssj2 level"?Broly Rocks 08:52, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

ok to clear things up... super buu is WAY stronger than kid buu, but kid buu is more dangerous. so gohan beating super buu means that he is way stronger than kid buu or goku. goku said that him (in ss3) and vegeta (in ss2) cldnt beat super buu and that they wld lose while gohan single handedly pwned super buu. goku was even with kid buu because he has been fighting all his life so he knows how to deal with every typw of fighter crazy or sane. But kid buu is weaker in power level than super buu. so this is the chart. gohan > super buu > Gotenks > Kid buu > Goku > vegeta >. the reason that goku is weaker than buu is because he needed vegetas help to stop kid buu and he needed the spirit bomb which isnt his own energy. AND kid buu repelled the s bomb so goku needed to go super saiyan just to push the spirit bomb

gotenks > super buu, and goku is stronger than kid buu. remember that goku said if he was full power he could destroy kid buu but he couldnt reach full power as he had wasted too much energy already. the only reason goku used genki dama was because he put his faith in vegetas plan to use the people of earths power to save themselves. goku wanted to wish gohan and gotenks to the battlefield. AND the only reason kid buu pushed it back was because goku was too tired to push it. a stationary genki dama is pretty easy to push back. and as soon as goku was ssj, he was like "yeah i win" because he now could push it. goku didnt NEED vegetas help or shenrons. he just took what he was given. Broly Rocks 08:52, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have a question?

To those saying Kid Buu is far weaker than Super Buu, didn't (at least in the anime) Gohan and the Z fighters back on earth donate some of their if not most of their energy to the spirit bomb then go around telling people to give up their energy. Kid Buu then pushed it back until SSJ Goku's power plus the spirit bomb's power(including the bulk of everyone's power) was enough. It'd be logical to say tha Kid Buu is as strong as or stronger than Super Buu's base form. To those arguing with Goku's statement as some kind of fact, Goku has been wrong. Goku was wrong about how much energy it would take for him to hit his full power and he was most likely wrong about his full power being able to beat Kid Buu. When he was near Super Buu he knew that Super Buu wouldn't let him reach his full power and that Gohan could defeat him on his own anyways. Sure Goku damaged Kid Buu but Kid Buu was getting stronger as they were fighting and was most likely toying with him just like he was with Vegeta.

Either the Spirit Bomb doesn't work precisely that way, or it was just a plot device so that Goku could take energy from all of Earth and make it seem more dramatic. I agree, all the power from the Z-Fighters at Earth should have been enough but it didn't seem to be. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:28, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

it wasnt the bulk of everyones power. gohan and the others gave very little contributions. not as much as they could give. the only reason kid buu pushed it back was because goku was out of strength and left the genki dama stationary. if the genki dama was moving onto kid buu with momentum he would have died. goku is rarely wrong and if he is, that means theres some contributing factor. goku was unable to reach full power vs kid buu because ssj3 eats up too much energy in his living body compared to when he trained in otherworld. super buu definitely would let goku be full power for the sport of a challenging opponent. kid buu wasnt getting any stronger. you pulled that out of your ass. he was most likely fighting seriously, otherwise goku wouldnt have damaged him. Broly Rocks 08:58, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

What reason would Gohan and the others have for giving tiny contributions? BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:28, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Things aren't always as they seem. Cell's full power was far greater than Goku's but that didn't stop Goku or Vegeta beforehand from blowing half or a nice sized chunk of his body away. Don't you think that if Gohan could slaughter Cell like he did that Kid Buu who was fighting a SSJ3 evenly would left a SSJ2 crippled or dismember one in a few attacks. SSJ3 is supposed to be like ten times more powerful than SSJ2 and there's a history of people only twice to 5 times as powerful as their opponents defeating their opponents in mere seconds. Comparing Super Buu after he absorbed Gotenks and Mystic Gohan however was like comparing Frieza's third form to Piccolo on Namek. It was completely one sided. They were not equals. Just like Vegito and Super Buu after absorbing Gohan's battle was one sided. SSJ3 Gotenks wasn't as strong as Super Buu either. Super Buu, in the anime, even said something along the lines of he sensed Gohan and was just playing with Gotenks until he got there. In other words here's my idea of the power order Vegito>Super Buu with Gohan> Super Buu with Gotenks> Kid Buu>Mystic Gohan> Super Buu> SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku>Fat Buu> SSJ2 Vegeta and so on.

So despite the fact that Goku and Kid Buu fought on equal level, you placed Kid Buu 3 places ahead of Goku?

Dude, Super Buu never said that. Read the manga. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:28, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

cell supressed his power. remember how gohan hurt freeza in second form? well it wouldnt even be noticed by freeza if he was 100% final form. ssj3 is only 4 times stronger than ssj2. ssj3 gotenks was definitely more powerful than super buu. at the very end of their fight, super buu was getting beaten up badly and gotenks declared he would wipe buu out by incinerating him. buu looked scared, then gotenks went back to base form. the english dub is non canon so dont ever use it to prove anything. and lol kid buu is ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE NEAR gohan. Broly Rocks 08:58, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Either way Kid Buu power level is close to or over 60 billion. He defeated Kais that were supposed 1000 times stronger than Frieza who was at 60 million at 100 percent and assuming earth had 6 billion people living on it averaging in strength anywhere from 4-10 plus some of Gohan's ten to tens of billions and the Z fighters's combined hundreds of millions probably close to or over half way to a billion with Goku's restored power on top of it when started pushing it back. You have to be a good deal stronger than the spirit bomb to push it back even if the user had no power. Think Frieza who survived it at 50 percent power couldn't push it back and Goku was very low on energy at that time as well. Even lower I'd say because he could still fly against Kid Buu.

thats what they say

thats what they say but hes probably not much stronger than one.Chi Chi Surprised Sig. . . Where . . . is My . . . Sweet . . . Little . . . Gohan? . . . 16:32, August 21, 2011 (UTC)


It was stated in the manga that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Gotenks. Since the manga is the most canonical source for information, it's absolutely true. BardockNomadMusikTalkFanon WikiBardock

I don't think it was explicitly said, but there was something there. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 17:43, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

After the 10 year gap, I'm guessing Goku had been training a LOT more than Gohan, and he was probably stronger in his SSj3 form.

I believe Ultimate Gohan is as strong as a ssj3 but would not be as strong as Goku was when he finished off Kid Buu

Super Saiyan 3 is not a set power level. my question is why the fuck didn't they just wish for immortality or infinite energy rather than energy restoration... WHAT THE FUCK.

Yes without doubt

There are a couple times where its implied that Gohan is stronger. chapter 503 page 10, when buutenks becomes buucillo Goku says "im disapointed Gohan himself could beat you now" also Goku powers down after seeing this. Wouldnt Goku have fought if he felt that he could win? Some people would say that he wants the next gen to fight Buu, well this was the case when Goku was dead and i totally agree. When Goku was dead he shouldnt have been the one to kill buu since he wasnt alive, but since he was fully alive theres no reason that Goku couldnt have killed Buu, unless of course he was weaker.

Chapter 507 page 12 Goku says "even though hes back to normal hes still far too strong for us" Goku clearly states that even working together with Vegeta that buu could still defeat them, this is the same buu that Gohan absolutely destroyed. This should be enough to prove that Gohan is stronger however some people like to refer to the filler fight between goku and buutenks and use that as evidence.

Well lets look at that "fight" Goku "fights" buutenks for all of 60 seconds and the only time he manages to land a proper hit is when buutenks pauses and fires at Gohan, beyond this moment buutenks is pretty dominant and laughing while Goku is nervous and fighting to survive. If the fight continued I have no doubt that Goku woulda been beat like Gohan. A key thing to note is how long Goku "fought" buutenks, if you look at the begining of Gohans fight with buutenks hes doing great as well however over time Buutenks quickly shows the gap between them.

Just to make my opinion absolutely clear, Gohan is stronger then Goku at the end of the buu saga.Jpark0015 16:07, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Goku in SSJ3 could have taken Fat Buu if he really tried. Gohan easily dominated and beat the hell out of Super Buu, who was far stronger than Fat Buu. Only when Super Buu absorbed Gotenks SSJ3 and Picollo did he lose his ground. And in GT, Gohan isn't "ultimate" anymore, as he can go SSJ, thus it shouldn't count on the topic about Ultimate Gohan. Besides, in Z he doesn't go SSJ after he's been ultimatized because his full power has been released, thus power amplification transformations such as SSJ and SSJ2 have no room anymore, as he can't get any stronger. If Goku had continued to train, yes, he would eventually have outpowered Gohan, but as in the end of Z we don't see how strong he's become in those 10 years, all we can do is speculate.

It is difficult to say who was stronger but in my opinion, goku ssj3 was stronger than gohan. There are arguments on both sides but we can as the series proceed, the villains get stronger and stronger. Kibito kai said that kid buu is stronger than ever. Goku also said that kid buu is twice as strong as ever before. Goku held his fighting with kid buu whereas gohan was easily defeated by buu+piccolo+gotenks. Therefore, we can say that ssj3 goku was more powerful than ultimate gohan. gohan was immensely strong but not as strong as goku.

Well your opinion is wrong. Gohan is much stronger then Goku. That is fact. The person who commented above(not in bold) has already provided proof. Goku even said in the anime himself Gotenks is stronger then him. Their is no getting around this. Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ1 Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku. Their is proof in the manga and in the anime. EntertainmentFan14 17:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

I m that person who commented that ssj3 is stronger. When kid buu evolved for the first time, what did vegeta said?? He said that it is difficult to say whether buu is stronger or weaker. He looks stronger to me. Obviously he was comparing kid buu with buu+goten+trunks+piccolo and he said kid buu was strong or at least equal. Therefore, ssj3 goku was stronger. Goku might have said that gotenks is powerful but it is evident from this fact that goku was stronger than gohan. What i think is that Akira made a mistake here. When we take a look at <270 episodes, we may think that gohan is stronger but afterwards, we can assume that goku is stronger. This disillusionment is evident thats why we r not able to decide who is mighty,goku or gohan. But if we look at the end, then definitely goku is my choice. It is important we must stop the debate here as thing r very unclear. It is better if we just enjoy dbz.

First off, I don't remember him saying that. If he did he meant Fat Buu. It is very clear not unclear in any way. Goku said Gotenks was stronger then him. And he said even him and Vegeta together can't beat Super Buu. It is quite obvious. He even said Gohan can handle Piccolo Buu. He said "Gohan can handle you now". If Goku could handle him then why didn't he take it? Like Goku would ever turn up a fight if he knew he could win. So clearly he could not. I don't see how this is difficult. Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan to beat Buutenks and fuse with Vegeta to beat Buuhan. This clearly shows he is far weaker then them both. Even more so as he already implied he can't beat Piccolo Buu who is only a inch stronger then normal Super Buu. So yeah we can stop the debate. Because it is very clear Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan greatly outclass Goku. EntertainmentFan14 17:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan

Ultimate Gohan is definatly far stronger then SSJ3 Goku. People have the right to follow whatever they want. Some follow the Manga. Others follow the Anime. I for one follow the Anime. I go by the FUNimation Dub. Regardless of whether that Manga and/or Japanese Anime is the original. Does not mean they surpass everything else and its all inaccurate.

yes it does. your opinion is worthless because you follow a dub that is basically fanfiction and intentionally dumbed down for little kids. toriyama had nothign to do with the american dub so not only is it non canon, its literally fanfiction. the manga and japanese version are the only versions that count and have much less plot holes.

one of the english dubs call piccolo "big green". since you think the english dubs are canon, that is what you should call piccolo from now on. and since funimation was responsible for hiring ocean studios, then bardocks a brilliant scientist and tien can regrow his arm.

Anyway I'm going to explain why Ultimate Gohan is stronger. Lets start with SSJ3 Goku against Fat Majin Buu.

1. Goku told Majin Buu that "a fighter even stronger then me is coming". Goku just stated that SSJ1 Gotenks is eitheir stronger then him or at least around his SSJ3 strenght. Especially due to the fact he believes SSJ1 Gotenks can beat Majin Buu, while he had to go SSJ3 to even combat him. Another thing is, Piccolo believed SSJ1 Gotenks had a chance to beat Super Buu. And Piccolo and the others sensed that Buu became far stronger when he became Super Buu. Yet he believes a SSJ1 Gotenks can beat Super Buu.

no one believes that, especially piccolo. piccolo thought blowing up the door was better than letting gotenks fight more.

Goku also said later on if he went all out in SSJ3 he could beat Fat Majin Buu.

vegeta said he would beat fat buu too. look what happened.

So this indicates both SSJ1 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku have the strenght to defeat Fat Majin Buu. So this already says SSJ1 Gotenks >= SSJ3 Goku.

what? no it doesnt. if both android 17 and perfect cell can defeat freeza, this doesnt mean cell = 17.

And don't try to say I'm a Gotenks fanboy. I'm not, I'm just going by what was stated. You guys may also be forgetting how Gotenks has a significant amount of fighting potential. He achieved and fully mastered SSJ3 in one week. He may not have a lot of fighting experience, and be very immature and childish. But he is a fighting prodigy. This is clear evidence Gotenks already has much more fighting potential then Goku. Especially since he is the fusion of two Half-Saiyan Super Saiyan prodigies.

2. Now this is about Ultimate Gohan. Ok lets make this clear. Piccolo stated Gohan's ki is the strongest he as ever felt.

no he didnt. even in the dub, he didnt say that.

I swear I heard him say that when I saw that episode. Gohan is definatly above Goku.

piccolo had not sensed goku fight kid buu yet. so your "proof" is worthless since piccolo was comparing a holding-back goku to a full powered gohan.

Gotenks is already above Goku and we know Gohan is above even that. Now about Goku vs Buutenks thing. Ok SSJ3 Goku only got one hit in on Buutenks. And that was because he was distracted. Afterwards he laughed it off. So people need to stop using that as evidence. Gohan got beat by Buutenks. Because Buutenks got in Gohan's head. And started doing the whole "mind games" trick.

no he didnt. gohan said those tricks had no effect on him because of how well hes been trained. gohan was simply overpowered power wise, and that is how it is in every dub and manga, not just funi.

Making Gohan lose his confidence to beat him. They where about equal. The fact is due to the fact he had Piccolo's brain. He had superior fighting experience and played mind tricks on him. So that is why Gohan lost. Now one other notible thing is when Buutenks reverted to Piccolo Buu. SSJ3 Goku said "Gohan can handle you now".

that was japanese dub. you said your going by funimation.

Explain why Goku would let Gohan beat Piccolo Buu if SSJ3 Goku could defeat him?

the same reason goku wanted to let gotenks handle fat buu instead of himself. he wants the next gen to take over.

Yeah right. Like Goku would refute a fight unless he knew he couldn't win. Goku also said he and Vegeta together could not beat Super Buu even in his normal form.

again this is when goku wants the next gen to beat buu, not himself. and goku was turned into a body smaller than a flea so he was too small to fight properly.

So that says SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta fighting together can't beat Super Buu. Yet SSJ3 Gotenks fought equal with him and almost won until the fusion wore off. While Ultimate Gohan wrecked Super Buu.

So overall, this has to be enough evidence to say Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >>>> SSJ3 Goku. I don't see how Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan and be in anyway weaker then him. It just makes no sense.

in funi dub, goku is clearly the strongest besides vegetto because he holds off kid buu whos the strongest of all buus.

EntertainmentFan14 14:40, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

It is quiet stupid to say that vegeta was comparing kid buu with fat buu. Fat buu was wayyy wayyyy wayyy out of the scene. Definitely vegeta was comparing him with the one he fought just a while ago, Buu+piccolo+gohan+goten+trunks. Here are my lines of argument:

1. Goku and vegeta both said that buu's strength is increasing when he was about to evolve into kid buu. Take a look and decide by yourself

2. Goku again said " Darn U!!! U r twice as strong as u were ever before, your speed your power". Take a look


Watch this and then honestly tell whether they were comparing him with fat buu or buuhan. As far as goku looking for a fusing partner is concerned, Goku knew he had to utilize a lot of energy in his ssj3 state to defeat buu. Goku didn't had enough energy to remain an ssj3 for a long time that is why he was counting on the fusion technique. Moreover, Goku's 1 day grant to earth was over o how can he take over buu when he was dead. However, goku might have said that gotenks is stronger. This is what creates the confusion but what about the lines of argument i have presented before?? Remove them from dbz and i m more than ready to accept that Gohan was stronger. This argument proves my point that there had been a mistake in the story but some people wont agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU ABSOLUTE IMBECILE! You just claimed Goku SS3>Buuhan. Are you completely out of your mind?!Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 09:19, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Well whoever is stronger....think of it like this. Goku trains 24/7. Gohan does not. Sure they untapped his true power but that doesnt mean thats his full strength. Could easily unlcoked goku's true potential have done Goku and highly doubt after that he would have been able to go SS4. Its all in the training. Which gohan is more like his mother later on and just becomes normal human being pretty much, while goku is training to the extremewhile he is dead. Gohan? Was going to school, gets married and has a job, while still training. So Goku is better in the end but i would say Gohan will always have more potential. And yea, by GT Goku is better...pre GT i will give it to Gohan though.

gt gohan resumed his training though.

Not at all

Sure Gohan easily whooped Super Buu while SSJ3 Goku had trouble with Kid Buu. But when Gohan fought Hirudegarn, he was easily beaten, while Goku, again as a SSJ3, easily defeated Hirudegarn with his Dragon Fist. And I think Hirudegarn was either the same or more powerful then Super Buu.

buuhan>super buu>kid buu>hirudegan>fat buu

Movies aren't canon so I wouldn't read too much into it. But the only reasons Goku defeated Hirudegarn were through strategy (taking advantage of Hirudegarn's temper)

what temper? hirudegarn wasnt any more angry at the end than he was at the start of the fight.

and his over-powered dragon fist technique capable of 1 hit KOing any enemy. Hirudegarn beats out both SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan in terms of strength. Reliable evidence from the Buu saga implies that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku. Janemba4eva 19:45, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

and even more evidence points to goku > gohan in the manga buu arc. for example goku wanting gohan AND gotenks to fight. why, if gohan was enough?

Yes, he actually is.

Goku said that he wouldn't be able to beat Super Buu even if he and Vegeta ganged up on him

you misread the quote. he said "like this we cant win" meaning they were too small to fight.

and Gotenks had a pretty rough time fighting him. This is the same Super Buu that Ultimate Gohan effortlessly walked all over. So yes, Ultimate Gohan is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3.

no he isnt.

This might not be the case in GT since Gohan stopped training

no he didnt. gt perfect files said gohan didnt slack

, but in the world of DBZ that's just how it is. Anyone who disagrees is either a fanboy or blind. Tokeupdude 21:57, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think it depends upon which the Ssj3 is. For example, Gotenks Ssj3 couldn't defeat Super Buu but Ultimate Gohan easily outmatches it showing that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Gotenks Ssj3. But again, In the Wrath of the Dragon, Ultimate Gohan is defeated by Hirudegam who is again defeated by Ssj3 Goku.

you oversimplified that fight. the only reason goku won is because hirudegarn was tired, got his tail chopped off and goku had dragon fist which could penetrate hirudegarns defences.

As Vegeta never turns Ssj3 it would be difficult to decide whether Ultimate Gohan is stronger or Ssj3.

The Hirudegarn movie is non-canon. End of discussion.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 07:28, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Haha Supreme trust you to point out the plot hole of SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Ultimate Gohan. But still Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.BardockGoku 08:19, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

if he was, how come goku didnt wish him to the planet of the kais?

Well, Ultimate Gohan is definitley stronger than ssj2. But at BEST he's probably as strong as ssj3. So, no.

What, so your saying Goku at SS3 could pound Super Buu the way Gohan did?Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 17:27, October 25, 2011 (UTC)


Gohan=buutenks > gotenks ss3 =superbuu >kid buu > goku ss3 > fat buu > ss2 vegeta

Piccolo stated it himself. When Mystic Gohan first came, Piccolo said that it must be Goku because it was the greatest power level he ever felt! And when he realixed that it was Gohan, he was in disbelief. Then when buu absorbed piccolo and gotenks, his power level was the same as gohan, but he had piccolo's smarts. And piccolo knows gohan even more than goku does. So he used his mind tricks to break gohan down.

no he didnt. read the manga. gohan was beaten because his power wasnt great enough. he faced the power of buu, and gotenks and piccolo combined.

Also kid buu is stated to be more ruthless and evil,not stronger. GOku said that him and vegeta cldnt beat super buu.

only because they were too small to do anything. at normal size, goku > super buu. plus goku was lying. when actually faced with super buu, goku smiled and said dont underestimate me.

See when vegito got absorbed and goku and vegeta ventured inside of buu. So the bottom line is Gohan beats everyone below buutenks

TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 17:59, October 25, 2011 (UTC) Actually this is the order Gohan<Buutenks Gotenks SSJ3 = Super Buu Kid Buu =Goku SSJ3

Goku SSJ3 <SuperBuu

Goku said that he wouldn't be able to defeat Majin Buu (Super Buu).

and minutes after that, smiled at super buu and warned him not to underestimate him. so goku > super buu.

Gohan(Simplified answer)

Goku + Vegeta = Not beating Super Buu

Gohan= Easily Beating him.

I can't make it any simpler than that.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 18:16, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 18:21, October 25, 2011 (UTC)This is the right answer.

^ You know, your actually supposed to put the sig at the end of your comment.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 18:42, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Ya I figured that I was supposed to do that.TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 19:54, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

No ultimate Gohan is when gohan reaches his fathers goal back when they were training for cell when he can be comfortable in ssj2 thats all

Frankly, Ultimate/Mystic Gohan is just as strong as SSJ3. Be it SSJ3 Goku or Gotenks. Gohan was young, while Goku had extreme experience like the Spirit Bomb, Instant Transmission, Instant Kamehameha etc. Therefore, even if Toriyama said in the interview that Gohan was the strongest unfused character in DBZ,

he didnt.

why the hell would he make him getting beaten-up, or make Goku to beat Buu..Maybe he thought Gohan is the strongest, but Goku is the best... he never thought that. Anyway, Gohan is just as strong as SSJ3 This cleary depicts Goku stating in the manga that he and Vegeta TOGETHER would be unable to defeat Super Buu, the same Buu that Gohan beat the crap out of. By this logic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku. End of debate

you missed him saying "like this" meaning goku and vegeta were too SMALL to do anything. they ddint know theyd go back to normal size after escaping. and gohan was beating him up but doing no real damage. he was no closer to killing buu than goku was to killing fat buu.


I posted this in my other forum page:

"Now for starters, we know that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Fat Buu. He stated that he could've beaten Fat Buu when he first encountered him. We also have a statement from Goku saying that SSJ Gotenks could beat Fat Buu as well. So Goku and Gotenks should be near equals for that matter.

goku called gotenks a risky gamble meaning he had no faith in gotenks' power.

What do you mean Goku had no faith in his power? Goku specifically said he wanted the boys to beat Majin Buu. How could do they do that if they were too weak?

goku said "its a risky gamble but one i want to take. i want them to at least have a shot at saving the world". he never thought they could have won. he took a gamble because he thought gotenks might stand a chance somehow. goku is known for sending people into battles they cant win but goku thinks they could. like gohan vs cell. goku had no idea what he was getting his son into and its only cos of 16 that the world was saved.

But still, Goku wouldn't make that gamble unless Gotenks was at least near Fat Buu's power.

Then we have the newly formed Super Buu which is much stronger than Fat Buu. Piccolo knows that Gotenks' full power at the time(SSJ)couldn't be enough to beat the stronger Buu. So he sends the boys to the ROSAT(Room Of Spirit And Time). After a week of training, Gotenks had increased greatly. Piccolo makes a statement that Gotenks has a chance in beating Super Buu in just his base form.

piccolos an idiot. gotenks never had a chance and i doubt gotenks had increased that much in a week. plus piccolo was wrong. gotenks got crushed meaning that statements bullshit.

Yes, I can see that Piccolo contradicted his own words about Gotenks able to win, but his statement about Gotenks powering up greatly isn't.

all he means is that gotenks is stronger in base so he must be stronger in ssj too. he didnt actually think gotenks could solo in base. plus buu was greatly holding back.

I'm just saying that Piccolo stated that Gotenks in his SSJ form was useless against Super Buu, but when Gotenks trained in the RoSaT, Piccolo was pleased by Gotenks' strength in just his base form. He wouldn't say that he "might" have a chance when his old SSJ level could do nothing against Buu.

Trunks and Goten even remark that their power is great as well. Considering Piccolo didn't think SSJ Gotenks(Pre Rosat)could stand a chance against Super Buu, yet thinks Base Gotenks(Post Rosat)may pull out a win, it would be safe to say that Gotenks had surpassed his old SSJ level in base."

This pretty much shows that Goku has no chance against Gohan.

vegeta said goku was the ONLY one who could fight kid buu. not gohan.

Do you have a quote to prove that?

its in the chapter where goku is just finished fighting kid buu. vegeta says "buu is stronger than i imagined. and so are you. your the only one who can fight him.

The only thing I can say to this is because of the plot. If AT were to rewrite the ending and have Ultimate Gohan defeat Kid Buu', the ending would be anti-clamatic which will make the story lose its popularity.

ShenronTheDragonThatHasLongSinceForgottenHisName Shenron 02:29, November 2, 2011 (UTC) Okay,I think Ultimate Gohan is more powerful.Gotenks SSJ3 was equal or a little more powerful than Super Buu,Gotenks SSJ3,having a advantage.But Gohan fought Super Buu and Buu didnt touch him,making him stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.And Goku stated that Gotenks is more powerful than Gotenks.Ultimate Gohan was EQUAL,not less powerful,than Super Buu with Gotenks and Piccalo absorbed,BUT Piccalo's smarts beat him.And SSJ3 Goku vs Super Buu (Gotenks & Piccalo Absorbed)never happend.It never happend in the manga,therefor,Super Buu with Gotenks & Piccalo absorbed,I think is stronger than Kid Buu,is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.And the last movie of DBZ,Wrath of the Dragon,Gohan couldn't hit him because Hirudigarn was moving,But when SSJ3 Goku fought him,he was moving alot more slow and barley moved,just stood there,but Goku STILL got hit several times.Goku got a lucky shot at him because I think he left his gaurd open.But by the 13th movie,I believe Goku as a SSJ3 was stronger than when he fought Kid Buu,making him stronger than Gotenks at that point.I still think Gohan is stronger by a little by Wrath of the Dragon,but in the Majin & Fusion sagas,Gohan beats Goku by a lot.

Ultimate gohan could barley hold his own against super buu w/gotenks absorbed. Goku himself stated tht he could have defeated kid buu ( which is stronger that any form of super buu) as a full power ssj3 though, and in the 13th movie ultimate gohan can't beat hiruigarn but ssj3 goku does. I'm pretty sure that ssj3 goku is stronger, but if they fought ultimate gohan could win he draw out the battle because of the amout of energy needed to sustain the ssj3 form. - 10x Dragon Kamehameha 14:14, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

1. Kid Buu is </= to Super Buu.

2. Movies are non-canon and cannot be put in debate as most of them have a HUGE amount of plotholes.Gohan power upI can never forgive you for what you've done!510253-3411355-gohanSS2 14:19, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

When super buu is transforming back into kid buu, goku and vegeta both state that his power is increasing. super buu also had fat buu absorbed so he wasn't able to freely use his full potential because fat buu made him a little weaker. So no, super buu is not stronger than kid buu.

Super Buu wasn't transforming back to Kid Buu, he was transforming back to Ultra Buu, from which somehow he became Kid Buu.After this transformation Goku and Vegeta both became more confident, note that this was not only because of his size because Goku and Vegeta both can sense powerlevels and thus, we can assume his power was knocked down significantly, as before this point, even Goku was scared of Buu's power increase.Gohan power upI can never forgive you for what you've done!510253-3411355-gohanSS2 15:08, December 28, 2011 (UTC)


        you're a fool to ask that question.goku is the main protagonist in the anime dragonball/dragonball z/dragonball GT,goku have the power to transform until super saiyan 4 while gohan can't.ok now imagine that ultimate gohan's super kamehameha versus goku's true kamehameha,and again goku win.

Gohan was the strongest unfused character in the whole series.


Since gohan was weaker than goku at that point in the story and the unlocking ability made him stronger than super buu, I'd say so. I don't think SSJ3 Goku was as storng as super buu in the canon of the manga, so I guess so.

Dimension screamNumbuh424 asks how will we eat candy?VegitoFightingCandy 21:31, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

At least in the manga

In the manga, it is heavily implied tha Ultimate Gohan was stronger. However the anime made SSJ3 seem stronger. As the manga is the highest source of canon, then it's safe to say that Ultimate Gohan is stronger. Yamcha626 21:22, December 28, 2011 (UTC)


gohan is the strongest unfused character in dbz stated by AT so stop debating over it and realize:ssj3=unfused and gohan is the strongest unfused character in dbz!Dont think of metioning should know ultimate gohan is stronger than ssj3 gotenks.


Ultimate Gohan has more power and agility, but still just barely is stronger than SSJ3EmperorPeelaugh575TalkContribGuide0w 02:50, January 11, 2012 (UTC)EmperorPeelaugh575

I agree, as stated in wiki, Gohan, even as Ultimate/Mystic Gohan is able to use SSJ1 and 2, it said that Gohan BARELY USES IT after he became Ultimate/Mystic Gohan. Which means that his power will be again multiplied after he transforms into a SSJ1 and 2.

SSJ3 is the superior!

Ultimate Gohan wouldn't have last anywhere near as long as ssj3 goku against kid buu, If he would have survived at at all. Goku's the man's father & he still grabbed Vegeta over him when kid buu destroyed earth, fully knowing which would better a better aid in the final battle against kid buu. yea goku made a logical move in war

Damn it Gohan was unconscious and Goku didn't have the time to save him.Ucell 07:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan Wins Easily

Just look at this. Gohan would toy with Goku SSJ3 until he is exhausted and returns to base form, then eliminate him.Ucell 07:08, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I think he is.

But apparently it's still up in the air. I think he is because Goku said Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta at the same time, while Gohan dominated Super Buu effortlessly. Tokeupdude 18:36, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


Seriously you guys. The question is asking if Ultimate Gohan is stronger than a SSJ3 not SSJ3 Gotenks or Goku. And SSJ3 is a FORM, not a power level. So this guy's question is invalid anyways.

I reckon he would be

IMO Gohan would be stronger. And a big factor in a fight would be the energy output of both fighters. We all know that SSJ3 puts a very large strain on the users body, while with Gohan's unlocked potential, it's as if he is normal with no strain on his body or his energy level. So Goku's energy would run out a lot faster than Gohan's, leaving him very tired and a lot weaker. GohanGoingIntoARockAndroid16Ep184Ssj2EpicgohanscreamgohanGohan ssj2GohanSSIIVsCellNV 11:16, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

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