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Ok idiots first yes ssj3 gottenks WAS stronger then ssj3 Goku but forms of ssj can been trained and grow stronger so Goku or any other has the capacity to become a stronger ssj3 and does so ... 2 buu becomes unknowingly weaker wen he absorb people kid be was his fully expelled form he was stronger Goku and vegeta even say the felt the emorous power change ... Gohans ultimate or mistic form is in a ssj 3 class in terms of power level but ssj3 puts a strain on them as all forms do when not perfected and maintained ..4 yes mistic Gohan was the strongest character at his initial coming including Goku at the time but like we all kno forms can be them selfs strengthen and trained and a ssj can grow to be a stronger ssj in the same light as a $$j3 can grow to a stronger $$j3 . Gohan mistic WAS stronger than Goku ssj3 yes at the time of his first ssj3 assention and yes Mistic Gohan is in his own light a ssj3 Goku grew Stronger and was a stronger ssj3 than Gohan and Gotenks in the same way that he is a stronger ssj4 than Gegeta . Do there u have it butt plugg 's

Well, it depends

This question depends on what stage of the manga you're asking about: Buu Saga (also counting Movie 12) or post-Buu Saga. If Buu Saga, then it's clear that Mystic Gohan is much stronger than Super Buu, who was equal with the strongest SSJ3 at the time: Gotenks. SSJ3 Goku was weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks at the time, only being considerably stronger than SSJ Gotenks (post-rosat) at full power. This is also the case for Movie 12, as seen when SSJ3 Goku was beaten up by Super Janemba, who is put around having equal strength as Super Buu.

If post-Buu Saga, Mystic Gohan fell behind as he began to focus on things like dating Videl and studying to be a scholar while SSJ3 Goku trained continuously an probably kept perfecting his mastery over SSJ3. By Movie 13 and 14, SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks, who had previously been stronger than him. This is shown in his fight with Hirudegarn where the so-called natual genius called SSJ3 Gotenks was knocked out by Hirudegarn in two blows and Mystic Gohan was easily sent flying into a building while SSJ3 Goku withstood all of Hirudegarn's moves and eventually beat him using Dragon Fist.

Buu Saga and Movie 12:

Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu ~ Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu ~ SSJ Gotenks (post-rosat) > SSJ Gotenks (pre-rosat) > Fat Buu ~ Fat Janemba

Post-Buu Saga:

SSJ3 Goku > Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu ~ Super Janemba >> Kid Buu ~ SSJ Gotenks (post-rosat) > SSJ Gotenks (pre-rosat) > Fat Buu ~ Fat Janemba


No. I think that the Ultamite Gohan is barely stronger than Ssj3 Goku

But there is no doubt that Ultimate Gohan is strong!! --- you're a moron, read the post above you, if you still believe goku is stronger then you are actually a dumbass, name any argument about how goku is stronger, i guarantee i can disprove it.

OMFG somebody keeps on putting kid buu in the arguments he died from who??? GOKU!!! SSJ3!!! and who died??? GOHAN!!!

Goku sucks dick! :o

Goku is Weak?

As we all know that Gohan is better than Goku so you can all continue to sucking dicks and licking pussies thank you. Just kidding I eat shit

Goku is stronger

Goku Better Than Heskey Thats BEAST



Though Goku said he and vegeta couldn't beat super buu note that it was super buu/gohan so it was a lot stronger than normal.

You're wrong too, Goku said in the manga they couldn't win like that in the size they were, therefore Goku couldn't blow a hole inside Buu's body which implies he's much more weaker, this is the reason he said they couldn't beat him and that's why Goku wanted Vegeta to keep the potaras to refuse after seeing THEY(Vegito) could still fight Buuhan in a candy's size. Even more proof, SSJ3 Goku fighting Buuccolo told him he's not planning to beat him in that form(or something very similar). Then we can state that Goku is stronger than Buuccolo, and Gohan is probably equal to Goku or a bit weaker or a bit powerful. What's for sure, Goku is stronger than Post-Rosat Gotenks who did evenly with Super Buu. 00:03, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Goku also always uses his unique foresight that forces him to make certain decisions. It's possible GOku know what would happen if Buu absorbed their fusion so he could've done it for that purpose. Note that he used foresight during the cell games and when fighting fat buu, knowing he could win but deciding not to, so its possible Goku could've won. When Goku was letting Vegeta get beat up it was so he could gather energy to beat kid buu who is just as strong as super buu, canon.


I dont think Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. For starters, Gohan couldn't beat Super buu Gotenks absorbed While Goku, who

stated that Buu's power had increased greatly after transforming into kid buu, was an equal to kid buu and even had the advantage at some

points in the fight. The only explanation why ssj3 Goku was losing to Super Buu Gotenks absorbed is because he was supressing

his power.


Goku had only used the transformation like maybe 4 times. So he hadn't mastered it, but at that moment maybe Gohan was stronger. Plus Kid Buu is stronger then super Buu. So since SSJ3 Goku could hold his own for a good amout of time. I'd say he may be stronger then Ultimate Gohan, but still Goku hadn't mastered SSJ3. Then again at the time it stilled drained a lot of Goku's energy.

Ask Akira Toriyama About Mastered SSJ3

Goku never fully mastered ssj3 so it might be stronger and if we're talikng about the energy drain ssj had a lot of side effects if you used it before mastering it. It took Goku over a year to master ssj to go to fssj which means with a few years of practice the side effects would've been gone and if we're using GT Goku's child body never mastered or even used ssj3 for that matter so it doesn't count. As proof Goku with his child body couldn't use instant transmission a skill he used often as an adult.

yes he did use ssj3. and prove it can even be mastered. you cant. he had 5 years training uub to master ssj3.

No winner in this

Personally, I think Ultimate Gohan is stronger, but there are a few weird things that could make it go either way. First of all, everyone knows about SSJ3 Gotenks having a slight advantage over Super Buu, and Ultimate Gohan had an overwhelming advantage, thus making him stronger. To contradict this, we can't technically say that Gotenks was the quintessential SSJ3, because he could only hold that form when fused, and, after all, he's a kid with much less fighting experience. Now we know that Goku said he could have beaten Majin Buu (and he said this pretty definitely) when he first met him, and he seemed to be holding his own against Kid Buu, but concluded that though they were about equal, Goku didn't have enough power to actually beat him. That's when he started powering up, because he was pretty sure he could beat Kid Buu fully powered. (Also think about how much more dangerous Kid Buu is to fight than Super Buu. Strength isn't everything) We know either Buutenks or Buuhan could beat Goku, but what about the Super Buu that Gotenks faced?

goku already said that ssj1 gotenks is stronger than he is, and that even goku and vegeta combined cant beat normal super buu.

Haha, nice try, but no. Go back and read the manga.
i did. i stated two manga facts. what manga facts do you have?
The fact that those facts weren't in the manga.
if you think so, re read it. ill even post the chapter numbers and translations if you want
BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 02:28, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think Goku is a more powerful SSJ3 than Gotenks

which has no evidence and goes against everything goku has said about gotenks, and what piccolo and gotenks himself say. base gotenks > ssj3 goku.

Again, you fail. By the way "I think" means I'm stating an opinion.

, so perhaps he could beat Super Buu as badly as Ultimate Gohan did. On the other hand, when Piccolo Buu was made, Goku said "Gohan can take you now". You could construe this a few ways, you could say Goku was saying that because he himself couldn't beat him, or perhaps simply because Gohan was already fighting him, so he wanted to let Gohan finish the job, or because he didn't want to transform into SSJ3 because it consumes so much power, so he thought Gohan was more well-equipped since he was already powered up. Anyways, debate will get you nowhere because someone can always pull more speculation out, so that was just a summary of points.


Well in my opinion Gohan is stronger than goku because Gohan could easily won vs Super Buu. When Vegeta and Goku say that Kid Buu>Super buu it was when it was transform to the Ultimade Buu when he absorve the North kai That strong Kai. It is obvious that Kid buu is weaker than Super Buu because Goku could na.ot even handle Fat Buu. Gotenks was equal with super buu that it was far stronger than super buu.And ofcorse Gohan that was stronger than Gotenks is obvious that was also stronger than Super Buu. Now about spirit bomb and gohan giveing his energy and it wasnt enough. Well gohan was no Mystic when he gave his energy. I mean it would be a lot smarter for Trunks and Goten to fuse and became gotenks ssj3 and give energy but the didnt.As you know from previous sagas. I thing it was vegeta or sayian saga that to use spirit bomb you need pure energy or at least a decent energy.Now gohan couldnt give his energy because to unlease the power of SSJ2 you need the feeling of wrath and with that feeling your energy is impure.And if you remember Gohan tell to the elder Kai how he could unleashe his power and he say do your Super Sayian trick. So mystic Gohan accualy use his SSJ2 power so the energy of his can not be used to the spirit bomb because he is inpure. Well if you disagree with me look how Gohan was acting when he was Fighting Cell. Same goes to SSJ3 gotenks.


Guy above

did you even read what you just said? you make no sense and you sound mentally disabled. goku ssj3 is stronger than ultimate gohan. you say goku could not handle fat buu? goku clearly stated that he could have beat fat buu before, but didn't just because he wanted to give gohan and the kids a shot. all that stuff you said about the spirit bomb makes no sense and it makes you sound messed up in the head.

NO ^ goku didn't say he could beat fat buu, he said he didn't know, there was a slim chance he could which primarily means he couldn't....

He did in fact say he could definately beat fat buu. he went easy on buu giving the next generation a chance to defeat buu seeing as goku knew he couldnt protect earth forever. goku stated that he could PROBLY beat kid buu( my opinion the strongest buu cause vegeta said his power increased after piccolo, gohan, goten, trunks buu was released).

Okay, I'm going to stop this. Goku said, he didn't try his hardest when he fought Fat Buu, but he also said he didn't know if he could win. Meaning he may or may not have been able to win, no one knows. SS3 Gotenks was pretty even with Super Buu. When Gohan came along, he dominated him. Meaning he is stronger then SS3 Goku.  And just for the record. Kid Buu, is the original Buu. Super Buu was just Bad Buu that absorbed the Good Buu. Kid Buu is the pure Majin Buu. So he is by far the strongest. Even though Goku faught evenly for a while, he was no match in the end because Kid Buu was toying with him. So Ultimate Gohan is stronger then SS3 Goku. And When Goku beat Hirudegarn, it was a plot hole.

Stop it username Broly Rocks

stop editing posts. it is very annoying. there is no need to divide up other people's posts and insert your 2 cents. so just stop. if you wish to make a point, why don't you actually try posting something rather than editing other people's posts? Specialbeamkamehameha 15:28, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


Goku thought Gotenks would be a match for Fat Buu not Super Buu, meaning he didn't rank their power that highly.

"you cant have the "strength of a ssj3" ssj3 is a form not a power level. even base gotenks has the "strength of a ssj3"" 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Base Gotenks = SSj3 Goku, WTF! Gotenks was barely able to keep up with Super Buu in his SSj3 form, whereas Goku was stronger than Fat Buu, and >= to Kid Buu. He was able to fight Super Buu Gotenks Absorbed for a short time.

gotenks wasnt "barely keeping up". he was kicking ass. if he didnt run out of time he would have wiped super buu out. whereas goku was weaker than kid buu. he tried powering back up to full power but was left too tired. through superior stamina, kid buu defeated goku. and no goku wasnt able to fight buutenks at all. that was anime filler only. show me a manga scan of goku fighting super buu and ill submit. 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Back to the point, Gotenks is HIGHLY unskilled in fighting, and only has an impressive power level. He just wasted time and fucked everything up.

so what? he still has the power level. gotenks is a fighting genius with natural talent beyond that of any full blooded saiyan. thats why he was ssj3 in just a week of training and thats why he kicks goku's ass. power levle is all that matters in z. you should have realised that by now. 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Okay wtf did you say? Gotenks is a fighting genius?! Gotenks is a fighting IDIOT! For all his power with fusion, the only thing he was able to amount to was being <= to Super Buu. He used flashy attacks that he thought were "cool", and he never actually fought Buu hand to hand. As you recall, when you witness someone achieve a level of SSj, it makes it a hole lot easier to understand how to do it. Goku's transformation was arguablly the hardest (to ssj) and after that it was childs play, not because of natural talent, but because they figured out how to do it from others. And are you seriously arguing that Gotenks has more 'natural talent' than Goku?!

yes. hes a fighting genius in terms of creating powerful techniques like ghost kamikaze in just one week. hes also a genius at rapidly discovering new levels of ssj without someone else showing it to them first. his flashy attacks tended to work. as seen by them beating buu so badly that buu feared gotenks and got pissed off, having never faced anyone strong enough to cause scratches and wounds all over his body. as i recall, gotenks went ssj3 without anyone ever showing him how. gotenks is a genius at having this natural ability to fight. goku had to train all his life to get to his skill level. goten and trunks had about one year, maybe less and they have already blown goku out of the water, even at their age.

you act like super buu is a pussy and not much of an opponent. but he is, friend. he is. gotenks being on his level is absolutely astounding and amazing, especially at such a young age. their potential is higher than gohans, practically limitless.

and what do you mean no hand to hand? of course gotenks fought him hand to hand! rewatch the fight! 06:46, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

"In the manga, shortly after he fights fat buu, goku tells piccolo that he wasnt sure if he could actually have beaten him, but he was certain that trunks + goten fusion could, and at this point he doesnt even expect them to reach ssj3, so this means he is expecting gotenks to be stronger than him even without ssj3."

He thought that a fusion would be a good match for Fat Buu, and I don't blame him because either Gogeta or Vegito would have destroyed Fat Buu in seconds. He compared the results he thought he'd get by fusing with Vegeta, to Gotenks. Basically he sorely overestimated Gotenks, as Gotenks failed. Gotenks WOULD NOT beat Goku as he lacks the skill to fight at that level. He never really fought Super Buu he just through his shitty unpredictable attacks at Buu.

no he never "overestimated" gotenks. gotenks made the mistake of fighting in base form first. since goku had no idea super buu would appear, nor would goku ever stand a chance against super buu whereas gotenks had an upper hand, this means goku has no chance in hell of beating gotenks in a fight. he all but admitted ssj1 gotenks is stronger than him. prove to me goku overestimated gotenks please. 07:16, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Goku SSj3 is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, in GT

Yes, I went there, GT. And who the fuck said it wasn't canon? It is a published work of the Dragon Ball franchise. Sure it wasn't part of the Manga, but it is Canon. I think is speak for EVERYONE when I say GT Goku SSJ3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan.

no you dont. and your wrong. goku ssj1 in gt is comparable to what ssj1 gotenks was back then. assuming the same multipliers, gohans still stronger as long as goku has no ssj4. 07:11, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, since Goku Gt = Z Goku SSj, if he went SSj3 he would count as 50 times Z Goku SSj3, which you cannot argue is far stronger than Ultimate Gohan in Z, not to mention in Gt. In Gt, Gohan didn't train and fell behind and he sucks anyway, whereas Goku kept training.

wrong. gohan doesnt suck and he did train. he had to in order to be ssj again despite being ultimate in z. its in the gt perfect files. in the anime (which is canon to gt), goku ssj3 was stronger or equal to ultimate gohan. the manga doesnt really apply when talking about gt. 06:35, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Wtf your actually telling me that Goku was not strnger than Gohan in GT?!

i said stronger/equal. read it again. 06:39, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Until Vegeta was able to reach SSj4, EVERYONE ELSE other than Goku was USELESS by themselves. And we already established this, GT base Goku (or maybe just SSj) = Z Goku SSj3.

no they were not useless. in fact goku never won a fight by himself. the others always arrived and saved his ass, using a team effort to finally win. no you didnt establish shit. goku in base is not as strong as ssj3 goku in z. 06:39, August 19, 2011 (UTC)


Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks, as shown by him easily beating up Super Buu. SSJ3 Gotenks < SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks didn't had enough strength to defeat Super Buu, but didn't due to his childish nature and time limit of the fusion. So Ultimate Gohan < SSJ3 Goku. Janemba4eva 14:25, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

On one side yea on the the other no

Yes ultimate Gohan is indeed stronger than ssj3 Goku BUT at that time Gokus ssj3 transformation was untrained so by the end of DBZ I believe Goku surpassed Gohan again but of youre talking about when super buu was around then yes he was. 02:45, August 18, 2011 (UTC)BrownPrince2011

Come to think of it

When was there any evidence that Goku wasn't stronger than Super Buu? We never saw anything to suggest that sord of thing.

"wrong. kid buu is massively weaker than super buu, maybe hundreds of times weaker."

What? WTF are you talking about? Hundreds of times what gave you that idea? For all we know, either one may be stronger.

from what we KNOW, base gotenks is more powerful than ssj3 goku whos equal to goku.

Except base Gotenks fought Fat Buu and got his ass handed over to him, while SSJ3 Goku could have beaten him. SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks.

base gotenks x 50 = ssj gotenks. ssj gotenks x 7 = ssj2 gotenks. ssj2 x 4 = ssj3 gotenks. so your looking at a gap of more than 3000 times121.222.11.242 04:05, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

You're wrong. SS2 is only a 2 times multiplier. So the gap is only 400 times at the most, which still proves nothing. The gap may not exist at all.

"no he doesnt. not once did i see him use intelligence or polished fighting skills."

Dude, wtf? They have a great fighting style and it is "polished". And when did you actually see Super Buu fight hand to hand? And btw none of these "traits" are powers. Kid Buu is insane, that is why he cannot express thing like Super Buu. This trait could actually make Kid Buu more formidable.

plenty of times in the original manga. kid buu being insane means hes dumber and weaker

"no gohan could have done it alone but vegeta wanted the earthlings to save themselves."

That doesn't even make sense. If Gohan's power was so great it should have been enough for the Spirit Bomb.

well it wasnt. he couldnt have given all of his power, goku only took a portion. too much could kill gohan. and gohan didnt even look one bit short of breath when he gave his energy. 04:05, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

"A full powered version of a ssj3 Goku could've beaten Gohan."

"except thats impossible in every way."

Except it's fully possible, has been done in GT, and your a complete idiot.

gt is non canon and im smarter than you. there is no possible way for goku to ever beat gohan. hes thousands of times weaker.

GT is canon you fucking idiot. You saying your smarter than me has no basis, and saying "thousands of times weaker" just proves how much of an iidot you are. If there were 1000 SSj3 Goku's during Buu saga, they would easily kill Buu, whereas you fail. In GT, Goku is stronger in his SSj2 form, let alone his SSj4 form, which you also claimed could not beat Gohan in the above post. Why should I think your anything but a troll with your retarted, uneducated comments.

"Gohan is the strongest non-fused character at the end of Dragon Ball."

I highly doubt that is true. And if it is true that he was the strongest in the Buu fight, he isn't the strongest after the 10 year gap.

"wrong. kid buu is nowhere near super buu."

You who writes in bold, where the fuck did you get it in your head that Super Buu is SO much stronger than Kid Buu. Tell me how you know this. It is entirely possible that Kid Buu is stronger, and more formidable in many ways.

for one, the massive MASSIVE gap between ssj2 gotenks and ssj2 goku, means the gap carries on to ssj3.


YES WE DO. its in the manga right in fucking front of us.

here goku is saying they have no possible way of taking on super buu

here kid buu is shown to have been damaged by ssj3 goku, an impressive feat.

here goku is saying hes not at full power, and if he was,he could defeat kid buu.

here gotenks in ssj3 beats the living shit out of super buu then declares he will wipe him out so theres nothing left to regenerate with.

Zenoftw"I may be just a pothole in the road to you big guy, but it's going to be one hell of a deep pothole." - Tien 16:26, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Actually he does have proof, Super Buu has two Kais absorbed in him while Kid Buu has nothing in him. Kid Buu is just Pure Unrestrained Evil(Kinda like broly) that is more dangerous than the other forms because he doesn't mind using it to blow up every single planet, that in no way means that he's more powerful.

Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I, am Supreme GohanGohan ssj2 17:40, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
It doesnt mean Super Buu is more powerful either.
"I may be just a pothole in the road to you big guy, but it's going to be one hell of a deep pothole." - Tien 17:43, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

"Super Buu has two Kais absorbed in him while Kid Buu has nothing in him" That IS proof.

Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I, am Supreme GohanGohan ssj2 17:44, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
So are you implying that Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu?
"I may be just a pothole in the road to you big guy, but it's going to be one hell of a deep pothole." - Tien 19:57, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
Um no, Fat Buu has a childish and does not realize his full potential, Super Buu on the other hand knows what he's doing and utilizes all his strength that includes the Kais strength.
Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I, am Supreme GohanGohan ssj2 04:39, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Gohan is more powerful but Goku has more experience. Goku would whip Gohan because of battle experience and being a full-blooded saiyan, but given the same age and experience level Gohan would kill Goku.

it doesnt matter if he has more experience or not. in the manga, if you have a huge power, you win. experience be damned. could roshi beat raditz? could freeza beat cell games gohan? if the answer to these is yes, then yes goku can defeat ultimate gohan

I said this already. Raditz is leagues above Roshi, and everyone knows it, that's why Roshi couldn't take on Raditz. Goku and Gohan are the same order of being however. Wait, why am I arguing with you? I agree, Gohan would win. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:22, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

The same goes for Gotenks, they may be more powerful than Goku and Vegeta but those two have way more experience and skill than the raw power of Gohan and Gotenks.

If Gohan was as old and had the same experience as Goku it still wouldn't be good enough. Goku has the advantage of being Goku, an attribute which enables you to: surpass your limits, understand people's power, develop winning strategies, have the answer, and during all this still have a good time and be calm.

no goku has almost never won a battle where hes the weaker fighter without genki dama. experience is useless, except that he can understand when hes gonna die faster than two little kids.

You who writes in bold, I realise now that you are a complete TROLL, and refuse to speak with you any longer, since you almost never give any evidence and make absurd claims. Good day

actually i do give evidence. you choose to ignore it out of fanboyism.

ssj3 is stronga

gohan unlocked his full potentiel so it was probably only ssj2.5 he never beat the ssj2 level

theres no such thing as ssj2.5 nor is ssj2 a set power level. gohan far surpassed ssj3 gotenks based on their individual fights with super buu. ssj3 gotenks is exponentially stronger than ssj3 goku. so how can gohan not beat the "ssj2 level"?Broly Rocks 08:52, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

ok to clear things up... super buu is WAY stronger than kid buu, but kid buu is more dangerous. so gohan beating super buu means that he is way stronger than kid buu or goku. goku said that him (in ss3) and vegeta (in ss2) cldnt beat super buu and that they wld lose while gohan single handedly pwned super buu. goku was even with kid buu because he has been fighting all his life so he knows how to deal with every typw of fighter crazy or sane. But kid buu is weaker in power level than super buu. so this is the chart. gohan > super buu > Gotenks > Kid buu > Goku > vegeta >. the reason that goku is weaker than buu is because he needed vegetas help to stop kid buu and he needed the spirit bomb which isnt his own energy. AND kid buu repelled the s bomb so goku needed to go super saiyan just to push the spirit bomb

gotenks > super buu, and goku is stronger than kid buu. remember that goku said if he was full power he could destroy kid buu but he couldnt reach full power as he had wasted too much energy already. the only reason goku used genki dama was because he put his faith in vegetas plan to use the people of earths power to save themselves. goku wanted to wish gohan and gotenks to the battlefield. AND the only reason kid buu pushed it back was because goku was too tired to push it. a stationary genki dama is pretty easy to push back. and as soon as goku was ssj, he was like "yeah i win" because he now could push it. goku didnt NEED vegetas help or shenrons. he just took what he was given. Broly Rocks 08:52, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have a question?

To those saying Kid Buu is far weaker than Super Buu, didn't (at least in the anime) Gohan and the Z fighters back on earth donate some of their if not most of their energy to the spirit bomb then go around telling people to give up their energy. Kid Buu then pushed it back until SSJ Goku's power plus the spirit bomb's power(including the bulk of everyone's power) was enough. It'd be logical to say tha Kid Buu is as strong as or stronger than Super Buu's base form. To those arguing with Goku's statement as some kind of fact, Goku has been wrong. Goku was wrong about how much energy it would take for him to hit his full power and he was most likely wrong about his full power being able to beat Kid Buu. When he was near Super Buu he knew that Super Buu wouldn't let him reach his full power and that Gohan could defeat him on his own anyways. Sure Goku damaged Kid Buu but Kid Buu was getting stronger as they were fighting and was most likely toying with him just like he was with Vegeta.

Either the Spirit Bomb doesn't work precisely that way, or it was just a plot device so that Goku could take energy from all of Earth and make it seem more dramatic. I agree, all the power from the Z-Fighters at Earth should have been enough but it didn't seem to be. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:28, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

it wasnt the bulk of everyones power. gohan and the others gave very little contributions. not as much as they could give. the only reason kid buu pushed it back was because goku was out of strength and left the genki dama stationary. if the genki dama was moving onto kid buu with momentum he would have died. goku is rarely wrong and if he is, that means theres some contributing factor. goku was unable to reach full power vs kid buu because ssj3 eats up too much energy in his living body compared to when he trained in otherworld. super buu definitely would let goku be full power for the sport of a challenging opponent. kid buu wasnt getting any stronger. you pulled that out of your ass. he was most likely fighting seriously, otherwise goku wouldnt have damaged him. Broly Rocks 08:58, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

What reason would Gohan and the others have for giving tiny contributions? BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:28, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Things aren't always as they seem. Cell's full power was far greater than Goku's but that didn't stop Goku or Vegeta beforehand from blowing half or a nice sized chunk of his body away. Don't you think that if Gohan could slaughter Cell like he did that Kid Buu who was fighting a SSJ3 evenly would left a SSJ2 crippled or dismember one in a few attacks. SSJ3 is supposed to be like ten times more powerful than SSJ2 and there's a history of people only twice to 5 times as powerful as their opponents defeating their opponents in mere seconds. Comparing Super Buu after he absorbed Gotenks and Mystic Gohan however was like comparing Frieza's third form to Piccolo on Namek. It was completely one sided. They were not equals. Just like Vegito and Super Buu after absorbing Gohan's battle was one sided. SSJ3 Gotenks wasn't as strong as Super Buu either. Super Buu, in the anime, even said something along the lines of he sensed Gohan and was just playing with Gotenks until he got there. In other words here's my idea of the power order Vegito>Super Buu with Gohan> Super Buu with Gotenks> Kid Buu>Mystic Gohan> Super Buu> SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku>Fat Buu> SSJ2 Vegeta and so on.

So despite the fact that Goku and Kid Buu fought on equal level, you placed Kid Buu 3 places ahead of Goku?

Dude, Super Buu never said that. Read the manga. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 15:28, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

cell supressed his power. remember how gohan hurt freeza in second form? well it wouldnt even be noticed by freeza if he was 100% final form. ssj3 is only 4 times stronger than ssj2. ssj3 gotenks was definitely more powerful than super buu. at the very end of their fight, super buu was getting beaten up badly and gotenks declared he would wipe buu out by incinerating him. buu looked scared, then gotenks went back to base form. the english dub is non canon so dont ever use it to prove anything. and lol kid buu is ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE NEAR gohan. Broly Rocks 08:58, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

Either way Kid Buu power level is close to or over 60 billion. He defeated Kais that were supposed 1000 times stronger than Frieza who was at 60 million at 100 percent and assuming earth had 6 billion people living on it averaging in strength anywhere from 4-10 plus some of Gohan's ten to tens of billions and the Z fighters's combined hundreds of millions probably close to or over half way to a billion with Goku's restored power on top of it when started pushing it back. You have to be a good deal stronger than the spirit bomb to push it back even if the user had no power. Think Frieza who survived it at 50 percent power couldn't push it back and Goku was very low on energy at that time as well. Even lower I'd say because he could still fly against Kid Buu.

thats what they say

thats what they say but hes probably not much stronger than one.Chi Chi Surprised Sig. . . Where . . . is My . . . Sweet . . . Little . . . Gohan? . . . 16:32, August 21, 2011 (UTC)


It was stated in the manga that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Gotenks. Since the manga is the most canonical source for information, it's absolutely true. BardockNomadMusikTalkFanon WikiBardock

I don't think it was explicitly said, but there was something there. BubblesNoShakuran13Goku 20SSJ4 1 17:43, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

After the 10 year gap, I'm guessing Goku had been training a LOT more than Gohan, and he was probably stronger in his SSj3 form.

I believe Ultimate Gohan is as strong as a ssj3 but would not be as strong as Goku was when he finished off Kid Buu

Super Saiyan 3 is not a set power level. my question is why the fuck didn't they just wish for immortality or infinite energy rather than energy restoration... WHAT THE FUCK.

Yes without doubt

There are a couple times where its implied that Gohan is stronger. chapter 503 page 10, when buutenks becomes buucillo Goku says "im disapointed Gohan himself could beat you now" also Goku powers down after seeing this. Wouldnt Goku have fought if he felt that he could win? Some people would say that he wants the next gen to fight Buu, well this was the case when Goku was dead and i totally agree. When Goku was dead he shouldnt have been the one to kill buu since he wasnt alive, but since he was fully alive theres no reason that Goku couldnt have killed Buu, unless of course he was weaker.

Chapter 507 page 12 Goku says "even though hes back to normal hes still far too strong for us" Goku clearly states that even working together with Vegeta that buu could still defeat them, this is the same buu that Gohan absolutely destroyed. This should be enough to prove that Gohan is stronger however some people like to refer to the filler fight between goku and buutenks and use that as evidence.

Well lets look at that "fight" Goku "fights" buutenks for all of 60 seconds and the only time he manages to land a proper hit is when buutenks pauses and fires at Gohan, beyond this moment buutenks is pretty dominant and laughing while Goku is nervous and fighting to survive. If the fight continued I have no doubt that Goku woulda been beat like Gohan. A key thing to note is how long Goku "fought" buutenks, if you look at the begining of Gohans fight with buutenks hes doing great as well however over time Buutenks quickly shows the gap between them.

Just to make my opinion absolutely clear, Gohan is stronger then Goku at the end of the buu saga.Jpark0015 16:07, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Goku in SSJ3 could have taken Fat Buu if he really tried. Gohan easily dominated and beat the hell out of Super Buu, who was far stronger than Fat Buu. Only when Super Buu absorbed Gotenks SSJ3 and Picollo did he lose his ground. And in GT, Gohan isn't "ultimate" anymore, as he can go SSJ, thus it shouldn't count on the topic about Ultimate Gohan. Besides, in Z he doesn't go SSJ after he's been ultimatized because his full power has been released, thus power amplification transformations such as SSJ and SSJ2 have no room anymore, as he can't get any stronger. If Goku had continued to train, yes, he would eventually have outpowered Gohan, but as in the end of Z we don't see how strong he's become in those 10 years, all we can do is speculate.

It is difficult to say who was stronger but in my opinion, goku ssj3 was stronger than gohan. There are arguments on both sides but we can as the series proceed, the villains get stronger and stronger. Kibito kai said that kid buu is stronger than ever. Goku also said that kid buu is twice as strong as ever before. Goku held his fighting with kid buu whereas gohan was easily defeated by buu+piccolo+gotenks. Therefore, we can say that ssj3 goku was more powerful than ultimate gohan. gohan was immensely strong but not as strong as goku.

Well your opinion is wrong. Gohan is much stronger then Goku. That is fact. The person who commented above(not in bold) has already provided proof. Goku even said in the anime himself Gotenks is stronger then him. Their is no getting around this. Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ1 Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku. Their is proof in the manga and in the anime. EntertainmentFan14 17:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

I m that person who commented that ssj3 is stronger. When kid buu evolved for the first time, what did vegeta said?? He said that it is difficult to say whether buu is stronger or weaker. He looks stronger to me. Obviously he was comparing kid buu with buu+goten+trunks+piccolo and he said kid buu was strong or at least equal. Therefore, ssj3 goku was stronger. Goku might have said that gotenks is powerful but it is evident from this fact that goku was stronger than gohan. What i think is that Akira made a mistake here. When we take a look at <270 episodes, we may think that gohan is stronger but afterwards, we can assume that goku is stronger. This disillusionment is evident thats why we r not able to decide who is mighty,goku or gohan. But if we look at the end, then definitely goku is my choice. It is important we must stop the debate here as thing r very unclear. It is better if we just enjoy dbz.

First off, I don't remember him saying that. If he did he meant Fat Buu. It is very clear not unclear in any way. Goku said Gotenks was stronger then him. And he said even him and Vegeta together can't beat Super Buu. It is quite obvious. He even said Gohan can handle Piccolo Buu. He said "Gohan can handle you now". If Goku could handle him then why didn't he take it? Like Goku would ever turn up a fight if he knew he could win. So clearly he could not. I don't see how this is difficult. Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan to beat Buutenks and fuse with Vegeta to beat Buuhan. This clearly shows he is far weaker then them both. Even more so as he already implied he can't beat Piccolo Buu who is only a inch stronger then normal Super Buu. So yeah we can stop the debate. Because it is very clear Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan greatly outclass Goku. EntertainmentFan14 17:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan

Ultimate Gohan is definatly far stronger then SSJ3 Goku. People have the right to follow whatever they want. Some follow the Manga. Others follow the Anime. I for one follow the Anime. I go by the FUNimation Dub. Regardless of whether that Manga and/or Japanese Anime is the original. Does not mean they surpass everything else and its all inaccurate.

yes it does. your opinion is worthless because you follow a dub that is basically fanfiction and intentionally dumbed down for little kids. toriyama had nothign to do with the american dub so not only is it non canon, its literally fanfiction. the manga and japanese version are the only versions that count and have much less plot holes.

one of the english dubs call piccolo "big green". since you think the english dubs are canon, that is what you should call piccolo from now on. and since funimation was responsible for hiring ocean studios, then bardocks a brilliant scientist and tien can regrow his arm.

Anyway I'm going to explain why Ultimate Gohan is stronger. Lets start with SSJ3 Goku against Fat Majin Buu.

1. Goku told Majin Buu that "a fighter even stronger then me is coming". Goku just stated that SSJ1 Gotenks is eitheir stronger then him or at least around his SSJ3 strenght. Especially due to the fact he believes SSJ1 Gotenks can beat Majin Buu, while he had to go SSJ3 to even combat him. Another thing is, Piccolo believed SSJ1 Gotenks had a chance to beat Super Buu. And Piccolo and the others sensed that Buu became far stronger when he became Super Buu. Yet he believes a SSJ1 Gotenks can beat Super Buu.

no one believes that, especially piccolo. piccolo thought blowing up the door was better than letting gotenks fight more.

Goku also said later on if he went all out in SSJ3 he could beat Fat Majin Buu.

vegeta said he would beat fat buu too. look what happened.

So this indicates both SSJ1 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku have the strenght to defeat Fat Majin Buu. So this already says SSJ1 Gotenks >= SSJ3 Goku.

what? no it doesnt. if both android 17 and perfect cell can defeat freeza, this doesnt mean cell = 17.

And don't try to say I'm a Gotenks fanboy. I'm not, I'm just going by what was stated. You guys may also be forgetting how Gotenks has a significant amount of fighting potential. He achieved and fully mastered SSJ3 in one week. He may not have a lot of fighting experience, and be very immature and childish. But he is a fighting prodigy. This is clear evidence Gotenks already has much more fighting potential then Goku. Especially since he is the fusion of two Half-Saiyan Super Saiyan prodigies.

2. Now this is about Ultimate Gohan. Ok lets make this clear. Piccolo stated Gohan's ki is the strongest he as ever felt.

no he didnt. even in the dub, he didnt say that.

I swear I heard him say that when I saw that episode. Gohan is definatly above Goku.

piccolo had not sensed goku fight kid buu yet. so your "proof" is worthless since piccolo was comparing a holding-back goku to a full powered gohan.

Gotenks is already above Goku and we know Gohan is above even that. Now about Goku vs Buutenks thing. Ok SSJ3 Goku only got one hit in on Buutenks. And that was because he was distracted. Afterwards he laughed it off. So people need to stop using that as evidence. Gohan got beat by Buutenks. Because Buutenks got in Gohan's head. And started doing the whole "mind games" trick.

no he didnt. gohan said those tricks had no effect on him because of how well hes been trained. gohan was simply overpowered power wise, and that is how it is in every dub and manga, not just funi.

Making Gohan lose his confidence to beat him. They where about equal. The fact is due to the fact he had Piccolo's brain. He had superior fighting experience and played mind tricks on him. So that is why Gohan lost. Now one other notible thing is when Buutenks reverted to Piccolo Buu. SSJ3 Goku said "Gohan can handle you now".

that was japanese dub. you said your going by funimation.

Explain why Goku would let Gohan beat Piccolo Buu if SSJ3 Goku could defeat him?

the same reason goku wanted to let gotenks handle fat buu instead of himself. he wants the next gen to take over.

Yeah right. Like Goku would refute a fight unless he knew he couldn't win. Goku also said he and Vegeta together could not beat Super Buu even in his normal form.

again this is when goku wants the next gen to beat buu, not himself. and goku was turned into a body smaller than a flea so he was too small to fight properly.

So that says SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta fighting together can't beat Super Buu. Yet SSJ3 Gotenks fought equal with him and almost won until the fusion wore off. While Ultimate Gohan wrecked Super Buu.

So overall, this has to be enough evidence to say Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >>>> SSJ3 Goku. I don't see how Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan and be in anyway weaker then him. It just makes no sense.

in funi dub, goku is clearly the strongest besides vegetto because he holds off kid buu whos the strongest of all buus.

EntertainmentFan14 14:40, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

It is quiet stupid to say that vegeta was comparing kid buu with fat buu. Fat buu was wayyy wayyyy wayyy out of the scene. Definitely vegeta was comparing him with the one he fought just a while ago, Buu+piccolo+gohan+goten+trunks. Here are my lines of argument:

1. Goku and vegeta both said that buu's strength is increasing when he was about to evolve into kid buu. Take a look and decide by yourself

2. Goku again said " Darn U!!! U r twice as strong as u were ever before, your speed your power". Take a look


Watch this and then honestly tell whether they were comparing him with fat buu or buuhan. As far as goku looking for a fusing partner is concerned, Goku knew he had to utilize a lot of energy in his ssj3 state to defeat buu. Goku didn't had enough energy to remain an ssj3 for a long time that is why he was counting on the fusion technique. Moreover, Goku's 1 day grant to earth was over o how can he take over buu when he was dead. However, goku might have said that gotenks is stronger. This is what creates the confusion but what about the lines of argument i have presented before?? Remove them from dbz and i m more than ready to accept that Gohan was stronger. This argument proves my point that there had been a mistake in the story but some people wont agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU ABSOLUTE IMBECILE! You just claimed Goku SS3>Buuhan. Are you completely out of your mind?!Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 09:19, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Well whoever is stronger....think of it like this. Goku trains 24/7. Gohan does not. Sure they untapped his true power but that doesnt mean thats his full strength. Could easily unlcoked goku's true potential have done Goku and highly doubt after that he would have been able to go SS4. Its all in the training. Which gohan is more like his mother later on and just becomes normal human being pretty much, while goku is training to the extremewhile he is dead. Gohan? Was going to school, gets married and has a job, while still training. So Goku is better in the end but i would say Gohan will always have more potential. And yea, by GT Goku is better...pre GT i will give it to Gohan though.

gt gohan resumed his training though.

Not at all

Sure Gohan easily whooped Super Buu while SSJ3 Goku had trouble with Kid Buu. But when Gohan fought Hirudegarn, he was easily beaten, while Goku, again as a SSJ3, easily defeated Hirudegarn with his Dragon Fist. And I think Hirudegarn was either the same or more powerful then Super Buu.

buuhan>super buu>kid buu>hirudegan>fat buu

Movies aren't canon so I wouldn't read too much into it. But the only reasons Goku defeated Hirudegarn were through strategy (taking advantage of Hirudegarn's temper)

what temper? hirudegarn wasnt any more angry at the end than he was at the start of the fight.

and his over-powered dragon fist technique capable of 1 hit KOing any enemy. Hirudegarn beats out both SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan in terms of strength. Reliable evidence from the Buu saga implies that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku. Janemba4eva 19:45, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

and even more evidence points to goku > gohan in the manga buu arc. for example goku wanting gohan AND gotenks to fight. why, if gohan was enough?

Buu was able to trick them before and absorb them, it would be very risky as if buu absorbs one of them they would be screwed, goku feared that buu could absorb them again

Yes, he actually is.

Goku said that he wouldn't be able to beat Super Buu even if he and Vegeta ganged up on him

you misread the quote. he said "like this we cant win" meaning they were too small to fight.

Goku said "We are still no match for his strenght" Super Buu>>>goku stated by goku himself

and Gotenks had a pretty rough time fighting him. This is the same Super Buu that Ultimate Gohan effortlessly walked all over. So yes, Ultimate Gohan is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3.

no he isnt.

This might not be the case in GT since Gohan stopped training

no he didnt. gt perfect files said gohan didnt slack

, but in the world of DBZ that's just how it is. Anyone who disagrees is either a fanboy or blind. Tokeupdude 21:57, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think it depends upon which the Ssj3 is. For example, Gotenks Ssj3 couldn't defeat Super Buu but Ultimate Gohan easily outmatches it showing that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Gotenks Ssj3. But again, In the Wrath of the Dragon, Ultimate Gohan is defeated by Hirudegam who is again defeated by Ssj3 Goku.

you oversimplified that fight. the only reason goku won is because hirudegarn was tired, got his tail chopped off and goku had dragon fist which could penetrate hirudegarns defences.

As Vegeta never turns Ssj3 it would be difficult to decide whether Ultimate Gohan is stronger or Ssj3.

The Hirudegarn movie is non-canon. End of discussion.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 07:28, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Haha Supreme trust you to point out the plot hole of SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Ultimate Gohan. But still Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.BardockGoku 08:19, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

if he was, how come goku didnt wish him to the planet of the kais?

Well, Ultimate Gohan is definitley stronger than ssj2. But at BEST he's probably as strong as ssj3. So, no.

What, so your saying Goku at SS3 could pound Super Buu the way Gohan did?Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 17:27, October 25, 2011 (UTC)


Gohan=buutenks > gotenks ss3 =superbuu >kid buu > goku ss3 > fat buu > ss2 vegeta

Elder Kai stated that even if goku and gohan fought together against buutenks they would still lost

Piccolo stated it himself. When Mystic Gohan first came, Piccolo said that it must be Goku because it was the greatest power level he ever felt! And when he realixed that it was Gohan, he was in disbelief. Then when buu absorbed piccolo and gotenks, his power level was the same as gohan, but he had piccolo's smarts. And piccolo knows gohan even more than goku does. So he used his mind tricks to break gohan down.

no he didnt. read the manga. gohan was beaten because his power wasnt great enough. he faced the power of buu, and gotenks and piccolo combined.

Also kid buu is stated to be more ruthless and evil,not stronger. GOku said that him and vegeta cldnt beat super buu.

only because they were too small to do anything. at normal size, goku > super buu. plus goku was lying. when actually faced with super buu, goku smiled and said dont underestimate me.

He wasn't smiling, he was serious, goku also said they were no match for his strenght

See when vegito got absorbed and goku and vegeta ventured inside of buu. So the bottom line is Gohan beats everyone below buutenks

TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 17:59, October 25, 2011 (UTC) Actually this is the order Gohan<Buutenks Gotenks SSJ3 = Super Buu Kid Buu =Goku SSJ3

Goku SSJ3 <SuperBuu

Goku said that he wouldn't be able to defeat Majin Buu (Super Buu).

and minutes after that, smiled at super buu and warned him not to underestimate him. so goku > super buu.

And yet he had a serious face and was nervous while buu was only smiling

Gohan(Simplified answer)

Goku + Vegeta = Not beating Super Buu

Gohan= Easily Beating him.

I can't make it any simpler than that.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 18:16, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 18:21, October 25, 2011 (UTC)This is the right answer.

^ You know, your actually supposed to put the sig at the end of your comment.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 18:42, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Ya I figured that I was supposed to do that.TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 19:54, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

No ultimate Gohan is when gohan reaches his fathers goal back when they were training for cell when he can be comfortable in ssj2 thats all

Frankly, Ultimate/Mystic Gohan is just as strong as SSJ3. Be it SSJ3 Goku or Gotenks. Gohan was young, while Goku had extreme experience like the Spirit Bomb, Instant Transmission, Instant Kamehameha etc. Therefore, even if Toriyama said in the interview that Gohan was the strongest unfused character in DBZ,

he didnt.

why the hell would he make him getting beaten-up, or make Goku to beat Buu..Maybe he thought Gohan is the strongest, but Goku is the best... he never thought that. Anyway, Gohan is just as strong as SSJ3 This cleary depicts Goku stating in the manga that he and Vegeta TOGETHER would be unable to defeat Super Buu, the same Buu that Gohan beat the crap out of. By this logic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku. End of debate

you missed him saying "like this" meaning goku and vegeta were too SMALL to do anything. they ddint know theyd go back to normal size after escaping. and gohan was beating him up but doing no real damage. he was no closer to killing buu than goku was to killing fat buu.

He said that they are no match for his strenght, wanted to get outside and fuse in order to beat buu and they notice that they were smaller than fleas after that


I posted this in my other forum page:

"Now for starters, we know that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Fat Buu. He stated that he could've beaten Fat Buu when he first encountered him. We also have a statement from Goku saying that SSJ Gotenks could beat Fat Buu as well. So Goku and Gotenks should be near equals for that matter.

goku called gotenks a risky gamble meaning he had no faith in gotenks' power.

What do you mean Goku had no faith in his power? Goku specifically said he wanted the boys to beat Majin Buu. How could do they do that if they were too weak?

goku said "its a risky gamble but one i want to take. i want them to at least have a shot at saving the world". he never thought they could have won. he took a gamble because he thought gotenks might stand a chance somehow. goku is known for sending people into battles they cant win but goku thinks they could. like gohan vs cell. goku had no idea what he was getting his son into and its only cos of 16 that the world was saved.

Piccolo only questioned Gotenks speed and when gotenks went to fly to fight buu piccolo was only worried that he only had 1 minute left, also that gamble comment was because they needed to master a difficult tecnique in two days and considering how stupid gotenks is he would play around suring the fight and might run out of time, fat buu would kill him after that

But still, Goku wouldn't make that gamble unless Gotenks was at least near Fat Buu's power.

Then we have the newly formed Super Buu which is much stronger than Fat Buu. Piccolo knows that Gotenks' full power at the time(SSJ)couldn't be enough to beat the stronger Buu. So he sends the boys to the ROSAT(Room Of Spirit And Time). After a week of training, Gotenks had increased greatly. Piccolo makes a statement that Gotenks has a chance in beating Super Buu in just his base form.

piccolos an idiot. gotenks never had a chance and i doubt gotenks had increased that much in a week. plus piccolo was wrong. gotenks got crushed meaning that statements bullshit.

Piccolo is the smartest guy in the series and base gotenks was greater than his expectations, also buu power is like a lie, he can increase his power in a few seconds

Yes, I can see that Piccolo contradicted his own words about Gotenks able to win, but his statement about Gotenks powering up greatly isn't.

all he means is that gotenks is stronger in base so he must be stronger in ssj too. he didnt actually think gotenks could solo in base. plus buu was greatly holding back.

I'm just saying that Piccolo stated that Gotenks in his SSJ form was useless against Super Buu, but when Gotenks trained in the RoSaT, Piccolo was pleased by Gotenks' strength in just his base form. He wouldn't say that he "might" have a chance when his old SSJ level could do nothing against Buu.

Trunks and Goten even remark that their power is great as well. Considering Piccolo didn't think SSJ Gotenks(Pre Rosat)could stand a chance against Super Buu, yet thinks Base Gotenks(Post Rosat)may pull out a win, it would be safe to say that Gotenks had surpassed his old SSJ level in base."

This pretty much shows that Goku has no chance against Gohan.

vegeta said goku was the ONLY one who could fight kid buu. not gohan.

Gohan wasn't there, the kids weren't there, they didnt have any other guy that could fight buu

Do you have a quote to prove that?

its in the chapter where goku is just finished fighting kid buu. vegeta says "buu is stronger than i imagined. and so are you. your the only one who can fight him.

The only thing I can say to this is because of the plot. If AT were to rewrite the ending and have Ultimate Gohan defeat Kid Buu', the ending would be anti-clamatic which will make the story lose its popularity.

ShenronTheDragonThatHasLongSinceForgottenHisName Shenron 02:29, November 2, 2011 (UTC) Okay,I think Ultimate Gohan is more powerful.Gotenks SSJ3 was equal or a little more powerful than Super Buu,Gotenks SSJ3,having a advantage.But Gohan fought Super Buu and Buu didnt touch him,making him stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.And Goku stated that Gotenks is more powerful than Gotenks.Ultimate Gohan was EQUAL,not less powerful,than Super Buu with Gotenks and Piccalo absorbed,BUT Piccalo's smarts beat him.And SSJ3 Goku vs Super Buu (Gotenks & Piccalo Absorbed)never happend.It never happend in the manga,therefor,Super Buu with Gotenks & Piccalo absorbed,I think is stronger than Kid Buu,is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.And the last movie of DBZ,Wrath of the Dragon,Gohan couldn't hit him because Hirudigarn was moving,But when SSJ3 Goku fought him,he was moving alot more slow and barley moved,just stood there,but Goku STILL got hit several times.Goku got a lucky shot at him because I think he left his gaurd open.But by the 13th movie,I believe Goku as a SSJ3 was stronger than when he fought Kid Buu,making him stronger than Gotenks at that point.I still think Gohan is stronger by a little by Wrath of the Dragon,but in the Majin & Fusion sagas,Gohan beats Goku by a lot.

Ultimate gohan could barley hold his own against super buu w/gotenks absorbed. Goku himself stated tht he could have defeated kid buu ( which is stronger that any form of super buu) as a full power ssj3 though, and in the 13th movie ultimate gohan can't beat hiruigarn but ssj3 goku does. I'm pretty sure that ssj3 goku is stronger, but if they fought ultimate gohan could win he draw out the battle because of the amout of energy needed to sustain the ssj3 form. - 10x Dragon Kamehameha 14:14, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Buutenks stated himself to be the strongest buu to date and buuhan stated he had powered up from before, goku didnt even dare to fight any super buu form

1. Kid Buu is </= to Super Buu.

2. Movies are non-canon and cannot be put in debate as most of them have a HUGE amount of plotholes.Gohan power upI can never forgive you for what you've done!510253-3411355-gohanSS2 14:19, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

When super buu is transforming back into kid buu, goku and vegeta both state that his power is increasing. super buu also had fat buu absorbed so he wasn't able to freely use his full potential because fat buu made him a little weaker. So no, super buu is not stronger than kid buu.

Super Buu wasn't transforming back to Kid Buu, he was transforming back to Ultra Buu, from which somehow he became Kid Buu.After this transformation Goku and Vegeta both became more confident, note that this was not only because of his size because Goku and Vegeta both can sense powerlevels and thus, we can assume his power was knocked down significantly, as before this point, even Goku was scared of Buu's power increase.Gohan power upI can never forgive you for what you've done!510253-3411355-gohanSS2 15:08, December 28, 2011 (UTC)


        you're a fool to ask that question.goku is the main protagonist in the anime dragonball/dragonball z/dragonball GT,goku have the power to transform until super saiyan 4 while gohan can't.ok now imagine that ultimate gohan's super kamehameha versus goku's true kamehameha,and again goku win.

Gohan was the strongest unfused character in the whole series.


Since gohan was weaker than goku at that point in the story and the unlocking ability made him stronger than super buu, I'd say so. I don't think SSJ3 Goku was as storng as super buu in the canon of the manga, so I guess so.

Dimension screamNumbuh424 asks how will we eat candy?VegitoFightingCandy 21:31, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

At least in the manga

In the manga, it is heavily implied tha Ultimate Gohan was stronger. However the anime made SSJ3 seem stronger. As the manga is the highest source of canon, then it's safe to say that Ultimate Gohan is stronger. Yamcha626 21:22, December 28, 2011 (UTC)


gohan is the strongest unfused character in dbz stated by AT so stop debating over it and realize:ssj3=unfused and gohan is the strongest unfused character in dbz!Dont think of metioning should know ultimate gohan is stronger than ssj3 gotenks.


Ultimate Gohan has more power and agility, but still just barely is stronger than SSJ3EmperorPeelaugh575TalkContribGuide0w 02:50, January 11, 2012 (UTC)EmperorPeelaugh575

I agree, as stated in wiki, Gohan, even as Ultimate/Mystic Gohan is able to use SSJ1 and 2, it said that Gohan BARELY USES IT after he became Ultimate/Mystic Gohan. Which means that his power will be again multiplied after he transforms into a SSJ1 and 2.

SSJ3 is the superior!

Ultimate Gohan wouldn't have last anywhere near as long as ssj3 goku against kid buu, If he would have survived at at all. Goku's the man's father & he still grabbed Vegeta over him when kid buu destroyed earth, fully knowing which would better a better aid in the final battle against kid buu. yea goku made a logical move in war

Damn it Gohan was unconscious and Goku didn't have the time to save him.Ucell 07:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ultimate Gohan Wins Easily

Just look at this. Gohan would toy with Goku SSJ3 until he is exhausted and returns to base form, then eliminate him.Ucell 07:08, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I think he is.

But apparently it's still up in the air. I think he is because Goku said Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta at the same time, while Gohan dominated Super Buu effortlessly. Tokeupdude 18:36, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


Seriously you guys. The question is asking if Ultimate Gohan is stronger than a SSJ3 not SSJ3 Gotenks or Goku. And SSJ3 is a FORM, not a power level. So this guy's question is invalid anyways.

His question does make sense since Gotenks didn't have the fighting skills/instincts that Goku had, which is why Goku managed to hold his ground (figuratively) against buu (gotenks absorbed). Also, about the debate above, Gohan is a LOT stronger/faster than Goku, but seriously lacks fighting instincts. If his fighting skills hadn't diminished since the Cell games (like Vegeta declared in his skirmish with Dabura), he would have annihilated Dabura, probably in his base form. Maajin Buu might be a little bit tougher, but it would be a fight in Gohan's favour.

I reckon he would be

IMO Gohan would be stronger. And a big factor in a fight would be the energy output of both fighters. We all know that SSJ3 puts a very large strain on the users body, while with Gohan's unlocked potential, it's as if he is normal with no strain on his body or his energy level. So Goku's energy would run out a lot faster than Gohan's, leaving him very tired and a lot weaker. GohanGoingIntoARockAndroid16Ep184Ssj2EpicgohanscreamgohanGohan ssj2GohanSSIIVsCellNV 11:16, May 7, 2012 (UTC)


Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSj3 Goku. Heck, he's stronger than SSj3 Gotenks, who's a lot stronger than SSj3 Goku.

Gotenks was shit.

Here's why: after fighting Majin Buu, Goku implied that an even stronger warrior than him was coming. Turns out it was SSj Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT), who was equal to SSj3 Goku's level (although, this was before Goku stated that, had he went Full Power SSj3 on Majin Buu, he'd kill him).

SSj Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT)=SSj3 Goku (Suppressed power)

After training in the RoSaT, SSj Gotenks got even stronger. In fact, some say that Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) would rival SSj3, although I don't believe it as he (Base Gotenks) still lost to Super Buu, while his SSj form did better. As SSj3, he got a lot stronger, and was able to match Super Buu blow-for-blow.

So, we have this.

Super Buu=SSj3 Gotenks (Post-RoSaT)>>>SSj Gotenks (Post-RoSaT)>>SSj Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT)=SSj3 Goku>Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT)>>Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT)

When Mystic Gohan fought Super Buu, he easily crushed him, something that not even SSj3 Gotenks could do.

Mystic Gohan>>Super Buu=SSj3 Gotenks>>>SSj Gotenks (Post-RoSaT)>>>SSj3 Goku.

So, in other words, in a fight between Mystic Gohan and Goku, Mystic Gohan stomps.

Disasters GoOn (talk) 15:48, February 22, 2013 (UTC)Disasters GoOn

The Way I see it...

Why do people say Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu when he clearly said he could but he didn't want to? On top of that AFTER he fought Kid Buu he said at full power he could beat him so obviously at full power he's stronger as he knew what Kid's strength was when he made that statement. On top of all that if Gohan was in fact stronger than Kid Buu then Goku would've said to Vegeta that they should go grab Gohan but no he said to grab Gohan AND Gotenks to HELP fight. Adding on to that Vegeta said Goku is the only one capable of fighting Kid. He also said he watched everything while he was in the other world so he knew of Gohan's strength yet he still said ONLY Goku can fight Kid.

Then people say Goku was scared of Super Buu. It's not that he was weaker it's because he can't just power up to full right away. When they ripped Fat Buu out he expected Buu to get weaker to where he didn't have to worry bout being full power but he didn't, it was the opposite, he got stronger cause the Fat Kai's influence was gone. Then people say there's no evidence he got weaker when he absorbed the Kai he only "calmed down." That makes absolutely no sense. Super Buu is just as capable of destroying everything as Kid Buu is. They said Kid Buu is the difficult one because he's stronger not because he's crazy. Thats just dumb. Remember Super Buu tried to destroy the world to but Vegito stopped him. Kid Buu is not "more evil" he and Super Buu wanted to destroy everything so why would the Kai's waste their breathe to say Kid is unrestrained as in more evil more crazy when it really doesn't matter since the outcome would be the same no matter which Buu won. It's obvious they meant he's unrestrained as in he's stronger and all his power is available to him now. And I mean stronger than regular Super Buu not the Z Fighters absorbed versions.

In an OPINION Goku is stronger than Gohan because that's all any of these can be are opinions. There are NO FACTS stating that Gohan or Goku is stronger not one time in the manga does anyone or anything flat out states it and that's why these debates come up to begin with. The only facts are that, in anime, Goku is stronger as it was shown in "Wrath of the Dragon" the exact same punch that knocked out Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Goku took it like it was nothing. But in manga it's really just whatever you believe it to be.

Super Saiyan GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats all i have to say

Your an idiot, all u typed has opinion written all over it

Lets put it like this In the normal world of the living, Gohans is stronger than goku simply because his energy consumption is much lower than ss3 goku. He's also definitely stronger than gotenks, because he easily defeated super buu while gotenks was barely stronger than super buu. In the other world, ss3 is strongest because his energy consumption is a lot less rapid. And ss3 goku does have the highest power level out of characters. It's all about the energy consumption rates though I wonder how much stronger gotenks would be if he was in other world. But the energy consumption rate for him is nowhere near as bad as gokus in the living world So in real life it's Gohan, and don't know if goku or gotenks because goku said he want sure if he could beat fat buu mainly because of his energy consumption rate but he also said he wanted to give someone else the chance of beating buu because he said he doesn't have the right to kill buu because he's dead In other world it's goku, Gohan, gotenks. Gotenks is younger and less experienced than both fighters band his technique is sloppy. Sorry, I'm don't know whether goku or Gohan is stronger in other world but the buu saga, Gohan is for sure.

The best source for why Gohan is better than goku, all facts and no opinions like all the other posts.

There are a couple times where its implied that Gohan is stronger. chapter 503 page 10, when buutenks becomes buucillo Goku says "im disapointed Gohan himself could beat you now" also Goku powers down after seeing this. Wouldnt Goku have fought if he felt that he could win? Some people would say that he wants the next gen to fight Buu, well this was the case when Goku was dead and i totally agree. When Goku was dead he shouldnt have been the one to kill buu since he wasnt alive, but since he was fully alive theres no reason that Goku couldnt have killed Buu, unless of course he was weaker. Chapter 507 page 12 Goku says "even though hes back to normal hes still far too strong for us" Goku clearly states that even working together with Vegeta that buu could still defeat them, this is the same buu that Gohan absolutely destroyed. This should be enough to prove that Gohan is stronger however some people like to refer to the filler fight between goku and buutenks and use that as evidence.

Well lets look at that "fight" Goku "fights" buutenks for all of 60 seconds and the only time he manages to land a proper hit is when buutenks pauses and fires at Gohan, beyond this moment buutenks is pretty dominant and laughing while Goku is nervous and fighting to survive. If the fight continued I have no doubt that Goku woulda been beat like Gohan. A key thing to note is how long Goku "fought" buutenks, if you look at the begining of Gohans fight with buutenks hes doing great as well however over time Buutenks quickly shows the gap between them.

Just to make my opinion absolutely clear, Gohan is stronger then Goku at the end of the buu saga.Jpark0015 16:07, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Goku is Stronger than Ultimate Gohan when goku was powering up every one felt it even in the kai's world but when Gohan was powering up it was felt only in the kai's world.

REAL Logic

Fact is, DBZ would not be what it is without Goku who is the Main character and who will ALWAYS be the best. So no matter what quotes you have or what the anime series says, Goku killed Buu and Gohan did nothing really but die along with Earth. Goku always wins.

Movies dont mean squat because they have so many plot holes.

SSJ3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan>SSJ Gotenks

           Ok, first of all, Akira Toriyama stated that Whis is now the strongest character in DBZ, so any references to Ultimate Gohan being the strongest is automatically crap. Now, the Manga doesn't have any filler, and it NEVER states anywhere (Japanese or Englsih) who is stronger Goku or Gohan. It is implied that Gohan is, since it is his unlocked potential. SSJ3 Goktenks fought evenly or superior to Super Buu. I know Buu said he was warming up, but Gotenks was clearly dominating the fight. Gohan thrashed Super Buu. So now we know for a fact that Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks. Now, Buutenks, beat Ultimate Gohan pretty badly. I do not believe they were equal, since he clearly was pounding on Gohan. SSJ3 Goku also fought Buutenks for a minute, he did a terrible job and was also thrashed like a child. So we know Buutenks is stronger than both. Ok, now Buiccolo lost the power of Gotenks SSJ3, but in place gained the power of SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goten along with Piccolo's power. (Piccolo was about equal to a SSJ Goku). So, actually Buiccolo was stronger than Super Buu, but weaker than Buutenks. Gohan effortlessly handled Super Buu, so add a Piccolo and to baby SSJ, and Gohan was still going to do his thing. I know Goku says a lot of dumb things, like that Gotenks is more powerful, but Gotenks was expected to do big things and was composed of 2 boys. Not men. If you can't seriously understand that SSJ3 Goku or Ultimate Gohan would outclass those boys then you clearly didn't watch the anime or read the manga. Anyways, Buu adds Gohan's power and  becomes even stronger than he was before. Goku doesn't turn SSJ3 against him, but it wouldn't have mattered. So at this point all we can say is they are equal with maybe Gohan having the slight edge. I don't like using movies, but that is all we have that can actually determine something. In Battle of Gods, SSJ3 Goku was destroyed, he was beat in 2 hits maybe 3. (The finger flick did not beat him, just knocked him down.) Gohan also gets smashed in like 2 hits. Again, we have them as equal. Now, in Wrath of the Dragon, when fighting against Hirudagarn, Ultimate Gohan gets pummeled. That's just his lower half. SSJ3 Goku is only on screen for about 2 minutes and kills Hirudagarn. He also takes punches that did damage to Gohan, like they were nothing. This is the only thing we have than can draw a clear winner. SSJ3 Goku is indeed stronger than Ultimate Gohan. I don't care if the Kai's say anything, because I'm pretty sure at the beginning of DBZ, King Kai states how powerful Frieza is, but doesn't mention Majin Buu or Bills for that matter. Even though he knows of them. I know he didn't want Goku looking for Bills, but what about with Buu?? Why did he never tell him about his power and that he would destroy the universe until he came. The Kai's are not a reliable source. Goku was sure Gotenks was going to be this awesome fighter, but he didn't think that all that power in the hands of someone who doesn't know what to do with it, is well useless. SSJ3 Gotenks was a boy. Not a warrior like Goku or Vegeta. Therefore, Gotenks is not stronger than Goku and neither is Gohan. It's pretty simple, besides a FPSSJ3 or MSSJ3 to where it wouldn't drain his energy, would be more than enough for Ultimate Gohan. Oh, and by the way Ultimate Gohan is his max power unlocked as his base form. At the time he was a SSJ2 and possibly had the ability to go SSJ3 with training. So his new base form was equivlant to a SSJ3 Gohan. That means he must also relearn how to transform into a SSJ. Which he does in Battle of Gods and GT, so argue with this. And don't get on here talking about how powerful Kid Buu is. He sucks ok, at best he is equal with Super Buu. They do not state that he the most powerful, they do say he is the most dangerous. Super Buu had some good, he spared Hercule and Bee. -UltimateSSJ1-

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