Forum:Is broly lssj stronger than hercule?

Forum → Is broly lssj stronger than hercule?

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[[Category:{{{1}}}|Is broly lssj stronger than hercule?]]

is broly st

SSJ3 Goku

Nope. He would get pwned by a SSJ3. .TheDragonThatHasLongSinceForgottenHisName. 02:34, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

LSSJ Broly from movie 10 is as strong as SSJ2 Kid Gohan but definitely far weaker than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ 2 (talk) 04:18, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Goku would win in SSJ3. Same with Gotenks.

No, I think Broli at LSSJ is about on par with Cell, give or take.

Well, the Ultimate Super Saiyan form of Broly gets stronger over time, while Regular Super Saiyan Forms don't, so at the start, he would get beaten, but over time, He would be able to defeat Goku.

Broly wouldn't even have a chance to get stronger. A few punches from a SSJ3 would leave him dead on the floor.

~Final~~Dragon~~Flash!!~ 20:20, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

^If that was the case, Kid Buu would not have needed a Earth Spirit Bomb to be killed: SSJ3 Goku would have been more than enough. In all seriousness, though, ki output or not, SSJ3 Goku would not last long against LSSJ Broly, period. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:30, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

LOL

Not even close! Broly is weaker than a ssj2. Broly's power is in between the power of Full-Power Super Saiyan and ssj2. Btw, Gohan was not ssj2 in movie 10 <<<<FACT!

He actually was an SSJ2 in Movie 10 (the Daizenshuus confirmed that). And for the record, his power level would actually be comparable to, if not higher than, two ASSJs, two FPSSJs, and a Super Namek based on how he defeated all five of them with minimum effort. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:30, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

actually he was SSJ2 in that movie and while I agree Broly no match for an SSJ3 he is much stronger than an SSJ2

I'm not so sure about Broly not being a match for an SSJ3. Considering how badly SSJ3 Goku fared against Kid Buu, its highly unlikely, regardless of the amount of power Goku has, that he'd actually win against Broly (who is just about insane as, if not even moreso than Kid Buu). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:30, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion Broly would easily beat a Super Saiyan 3, it took Goku, Trunks,Gohan and Vegeta all at Super Saiyan power and Piccolo's power to defeat Broly. In the second movie it took Goku and Gohan at Super Saiyan 2 power and Goten at Super Saiyan to deafeat him.

SSJ 3= 2X SSJ 2= 4X SSJ while Broly = 4X SSJ, so they would be equal at first, but ssj3 would quickly run out of energy

^^ What are you guys smoking?

First, Gohan was weaker in comparison to when he fought Cell. Goku only appeared for a moment, and some evidences points out that Goku was only an illusion (the Dragon Balls didnt lost a wish; Shenron never appeared and Goten only thought about that wish, he didnt say it) and even so, he only launched a kamehameha, he never really battles Broly, he never turned SSJ2 as well (I think not even Gohan was SSJ2 when they launched the "Family Kamehameha", without counting how much weak he and his brother, Goten, was after all that fighting).

Second, where did you get those multipliers? LOL. As far as I know, SSJ2 multipliers the base form' power by 100 times (2x stronger than SSJ), and the SSJ3 by 300 times (3x stronger than SSJ2).

So yes, Broly was stronger than Gohan SSJ2, not by much since he couldnt kill Gohan that easily, and this even isnt enough proof to say that Broly was stronger than Goku SSJ2, for example, since Gohan was even weaker then when he fought Cell. So saying that Broly could beat Goku SSJ3 is non-sense, at best.

^To answer your second point, it was stated in the Daizenshuus as well as the Super Exciting Guides that SSJ3 is twice the strength of SSJ2 and four times the strength of SSJ1. As far as Gohan, considering how Movie 8 had Goku telling Gohan to flee, despite knowing about Gohan's limitless potential at the very least, if not his SSJ2 ability, there's absolutely no way Cell Games Gohan would have beaten LSSJ Broly. Otherwise, Goku would have been confident enough to try having Gohan fight Broly, not ordering for him to retreat. And if you remembered how well SSJ3 Goku fared against Kid Buu (ie, not good at all), there's no way SSJ3 Goku can actually beat LSSJ Broly even IF it is true that SSJ3 outranks LSSJ (which it isn't confirmed either way, and considering his creator stated that even SSJ4 Gogeta's weak against LSSJ Broly, something that, outside of removing it, he hasn't verbally and explicitly refuted, not to mention Shin Budokai having Broly actually going toe-to-toe with SSJ3 Goku and giving him trouble, seems to imply that LSSJ may actually be stronger, at least in that game). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:23, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Broly is stronger I'd say because in the first movie it took the powers two full powered super saiyans, two ascended super saiyans and one super Namek all concentrated into one punch into Broly's only weakness, his stomach (where he got knifed as a baby) and I think Broly in the Second movie only lost because he hadn't fully recovered from the events of the first movie and he lost to the family kamehameha because Trunks used an energy blast that seperated the link between Broly and his energy ball which stopped him from putting his full power into it. Well anyway to answer the question Broly basically has limitless energy (although we haven't seen him power up to 100%) SSJ3 drains energy from the user whilst LSSJ doesn't So yes Broly can best SSJ3.

Agreed. It's like asking whether USSJ Trunks can beat Perfect Cell. Even if he (SSJ3 Goku) is technically stronger than him (LSSJ Broly, which I doubt quite a bit), the handicap would not be effective enough to actually beat him. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:23, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

SSJ3 Broly. Most Powerful???

I think what people seem to forget is that SSJ3 is about Ki output/usage. It's why Goku became so exhausted after using it. Remember Broly essentially has no limit to his Ki. The angrier he becomes, the more powerful he becomes and the more ki he produces. In essence, an SSJ3 Broly could end up being the most powerful of DBZ chracters because not only has he reached the top tier of SSJ in DBZ, but he doesn't run out of ki therefore making him a limitless monster that I believe even Kid Buu would lose to. Buu hasn't met anyone as insane as him anyways. Broly's just as insane...

Not even close lol

I'm a broly fan and I'm still saying ssj3 is WAY stronger than broly even after broly second coming, broly isn't anywhere near ssj3. Broly is weaker than ssj 2 and is inbetween perfect cell and super perfect cell. Yes I know ssj3 drains goku's energy and broly gets stronger over time but it still doesnt make a difference. Its not enough to close the gap. Just a few hits from ssj3 and its over. Even if goku were to notice his energy draining too early, he could use ssj2 and that is still stronger than broly. No competition, ssj3 wins.--Ssj3gogeta96 (talk) 07:43, December 29, 2012 (UTC)ssj3gogeta96

Actually, I doubt SSJ2 was stronger than a LSSJ, especially not Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, seeing how Goku basically told Gohan to, y'know, flee instead of unleash his power on Broly despite his obviously already knowing about his SSJ2 form/limitless potential in Movie 8 by that point. SSJ3 is in the gray area, although Shin Budokai does imply that Broly did give Goku some trouble while the latter was SSJ3. I prefer it when it is directly stated out of universe, if not in universe that something's stronger than another (eg, official confirmation by Broly's creator that Bills might actually be stronger than Broly). And considering what nearly happened to Goku when he fought Kid Buu in SSJ3 form (and Kid Buu is just about as insane as Broly, the latter possibly rivalling him in that department), I doubt Goku would have lasted long enough to beat Broly if he tried it. Kid Buu was weaker than SSJ3 Goku (something Goku even estimated himself), yet Goku not only was being clobbered by Kid Buu while in SSJ3 form, he ended up permanently being disabled from transforming again just by attempting to regain his energy. If SSJ3 Goku did that terribly against Kid Buu, its extremely unlikely, stronger than LSSJ or not in terms of Ki output/strength, that he'd fare any better against LSSJ Broly. If you think about it, its similar to how USSJ Trunks fared against Perfect Cell. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:13, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

The situations with cell and broly were completely different. Broly was insane and much more dangerous than cell. Goku can't just tell gohan to get extremely angry and attain ssj2 on the spot. Look how much it took for gohan to turn ssj2. Broly wasnt giving goku and gohan the chance that goku knew cell would give them--Ssj3gogeta96 (talk) 03:06, October 29, 2013 (UTC)ssj3gogeta96

Not sure

While I don't know if he is more powerful than  a Super Saiyan 3 I did seem to know that he will die if he face Super Buu.AREA95000 (talk) 15:08, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Broly is in no way anywhere near ssj3 level in either movie at his maximum strength which was in movie 10 he would be around give or take a little bit cell games gohan and thats it buu saga's vegeta and goku would handle him no sweat

He can be, but...

As a LSSJ, I like to think his power is about on par with SSJ2 (Teen Gohan). But his power is constantly going, so it would take a long time to get to the power of an SSJ3. But against an actual SSJ3, Broly would be dead in seconds. In LSSJ3, his power rivals that of an SSJ3. However, his power is still constantly going, but now at a faster rate. Oh, by the way, I'm not a Broly fan, so I'm not overexaggerating here ;-)  Kamehameha L F D

No, Broly is not stronger than a ssj3, but it is proven that he is stronger than a ssj2. Okay, there are brolytards, and Broly haters, I hate both groups. Anyways, you can see that Gohan is a ssj2 by his hair when he fought Broly, also, I recall Dashenzuu stating this, however, Ssj2 Adult Gohan can be pretty far from Ssj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta, like, he is 70-80% of them. Anyways, you don't actually need to be 2x stronger for it to be a stomp, as it can be 1.3x and up. 

FPSSJ (Mssj) - 10x base (Base is closer to ssj)

Ssj2 - 2x FPSSJ

Ssj3 - 4x Ssj2

Now, I would have Broly at about 1.5x stronger than Ssj2 Adult Gohan was, I have Ssj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta at about 1.4x stronger than Ssj2 Adult Gohan, so he isn't that much stronger than Ssj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta. So, he isn't even CLOSE to Ssj3.

i have to say ssj3 goku is more stronger than lssj broly, based on the fact that he got blowed away by a kamehameha of 3ssjs, where ssj3 is 8xssj. but if broly becomes lssj3, then he would easily win. but he's in no way weaker than ssj2 teen gohan. i think he is in par with ssj2 goku/ssj2 majin vegeta. but eventually he will win because of his increasing ki. LancerEX (talk) 13:18, October 24, 2013 (UTC)

^fanboy KamehamehaLFD Say something already! 14:33, October 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm no fan of Broly (neutral to him, really), and I actually see Lancer EX's stats to be somewhat accurate. Besides, if we go by Shin Budokai, Broly definitely gave SSJ3 Goku some trouble, at least.

Not to mention, even if SSJ3 were actually stronger than Legendary Super Saiyan, considering what happened to Goku when he tried to fight Kid Buu (heck, he had more trouble maintaining the form than beating Kid Buu, and the latter was even stated to be weaker than that form), SSJ3 would probably lose to LSSJ anyways. USSJ was technically stronger than Perfect Cell, but it was unable to beat him because of a decreased amount of speed.

Either way, unless there is explicit, director/developer confirmation that LSSJ is weaker than SSJ3, we can't state that LSSJ is weaker than SSJ3. The only beings actually confirmed to be stronger than LSSJ were Hatchiyak and Bills, and even then, only Bills was confirmed to be the absolute stronger to Broly, as Hatchiyak was only confirmed to be stronger than Movie 8 LSSJ, not Movie 10 LSSJ. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 02:03, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Broly is not even close : 

Some people say that Broly defeating ssj Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Goku with piccolo makes him stronger than SSJ2, however what you are conveniently forgetting is that SSJ2 teen gohan defeated 7 cell juniors who were all about the level of Vegeta/Trunks, those 7 combined would have a strength greater than that of the 5 Z warriors facing Broly without any doubt, so basically Broly defeating those guys does not prove anything, In DBZ 10 fighters with a power level of x will easily lose to one fighter of power level 3x, you don't need his level to be at 10x.

Now when adult Gohan faced Broly he was much weaker than teen gohan and still he wan't totally owned and managed some decent attacks on Broly, this is an indication that teen Gohan would do very well against Broly, I would expect him to be  even to Broly, Now let's come to Goku, during the cell games, ssj Goku was slightly weaker than ssj Gohan but was able to fight better than Gohan due to his superior fighting sense, so if Goku somehow managed to turn ssj2 then, he would fight better than ssj2 gohan, now during the 7 years of training in the other world Goku would have increased the strength of his base form a lot, so correspondingly his ssj and ssj2 forms would also get much more powerful, what that means is that ssj2 goku during Buu saga was much stronger than teen gohan in the cell games, now since teen gohan would do very well against Broly one can easily expect that Goku ssj2 will beat him.

Now ssj3 in spite of all it's limitations is still much superior to the ssj2 form and thus ssj3 goku wouldn't even break sweat in defeating Broly, Broly's increasing power doesn't matter, he will be owned in seconds.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 05:05, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

USSJ, in spite of its limitations, was also superior to ASSJ, and look at how that turned out when it fought Cell. Besides, in case you've forgotten: SSJ3 Goku wasn't even able to maintain the form long enough to defeat Kid Buu (heck, he had more problems maintaining enough energy to remain in that form, not to mention being able to transform, period, than defeating Kid Buu). If he couldn't do that with Kid Buu, how in the heck could he hope to beat LSSJ Broly with that limitation, brute strength or not? That's like expecting USSJ Trunks to defeat Perfect Cell just because the latter is weaker than the former.

Also, its more than just the fact that Broly defeated those five: Goku told teen Gohan to flee from the battle, despite knowing full well about Gohan's limitless power and/or his SSJ2 ability (and honestly, even without Cell's Breakdown telling us that, Goku knew since the Saiyan Saga about Gohan's power.). And besides, the Cell Jrs. were not actually comparable at all since, while they did give them a good fight, they didn't actually make short work of Vegeta, Trunks, or Piccolo at their full power (they were still standing when Gohan transformed). The only ones they overwhelmed in the most absolute terms are Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien. Goku doesn't count as he was worn out by Cell already thanks in large part to feeding Cell a senzu bean as well as Cell confiscating the bag, and thus couldn't actually fight back against the Cell Jrs anyhow. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:53, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Goku's fight with Kid Buu doesn't prove anything, Kid Buu is far superior to Broly.

The comparison of USSJ and ASSJ is pointless, they were both weaker than perfect cell in one way or the other, in contrast an ssj2 is weaker than Fat Buu whereas an ssj3 can defeat it.

You misunderstand what I' trying to say by the cell Junior thing, what I am saying is that while Broly defeated 4 ssj's and Piccolo, so could have teen Gohan considering Cell junior's were about the same as Vegeta.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 16:33, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Do you have anything to back that up? Unless you have a guidebook or a studio executive's official word that states that Kid Buu is in fact stronger than Broly (explicitly states it, I mean), don't claim he is stronger, because it is unproven. Heck, Broly in Shin Budokai actually gave SSJ3 Goku trouble. The only characters explicitly confirmed to actually be more powerful than LSSJ Broly (or heck, Broly, period) is Hatchiyak (Movie 8 Broly, at least) and Bills, stated in the OVA as well as by Broly's creator. Keep in mind that he also stated that Broly was stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta.

They may have both been weaker than Perfect Cell in one way or another, but USSJ at least had strength outclassing Perfect Cell. ASSJ was completely outclassed, no questions asked. It is the same with SSJ3 and Kid Buu, as while SSJ3 was technically stronger than Buu, it also ended up not being able to defeat Buu at the same time. Haven't you forgotten what happened to Goku in SSJ3 form when he tried to use it against Kid Buu? He got permanently depowered until Porunga restored his power at a good time. Stronger or not, Goku would not have been able to beat Broly from the Ki output alone, as evidenced by what nearly happened when Goku used the ability when fighting Kid Buu.

And if Teen Gohan had a shot against Broly, please explain why Goku told Gohan to retreat rather than fight Broly, despite knowing about that power in Gohan without even Gohan knowing about it? He had no qualms with sending Gohan out to fight Cell and potentially getting killed on the small chance that his inner power and SSJ2 form would actually mow Cell down. If Broly truly was weaker than SSJ2 Teen Gohan, Goku would NOT have tried to get Gohan to flee. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:36, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sure I don't have an official source claiming Broly is weaker than Kid Buu, I will give you that.

(However this does not mean that Broly is stronger than Kid Buu, at best you can say we don't know which one is stronger and saying Broly is stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta is plain dumb, I wouldn't accept that even if Toriyama himself tried to convince me.)

Now to the real arguments, I am not quite sure why you keep bringing up the Buu fight, because firstly you don't know how Buu stacks up against Brly, econdly Buu with a his regeneration was a unique opponent, thirdly, the reason Goku couldn't finish Buu was because he wasted time in trying to give Vegeta a chance and to top it all, the only thing I'm trying to say is SSJ3>>SSJ2, it might lead to higher energy absorption but it is faster as well as stronger, if it was inferior in any way to SSJ2, Goku would use SSJ2 while fighting the two Buu's and we have already seen what hapened to Vegeta when he tried that, In case of ASSJ and USSJ, USSJ is slower albeit more powerful and consumes more energy, ssj3 removes the speed limitation from that equation when compared with ssj2.

About why Goku asked Teen Gohan to flee, it has to do with actual Plot reasons rather than some DBZ reason, the way Cell Saga episode was written, it was very much clear that this was the first time Gohan Maintained the SSJ2 state, the episode was finalized before the movie came out and since the movie had to broadly conform to the DBZ storyline they couldn't use SSJ2 in the movie, otherwise the actual DBZ episodes when the fighters are all dumbstruck first at Goku's decision to send Gohan to battle and then at his stregth those episodes will become pointless and stupid for obvious reasons.

Additionally, I'm not caiming that Teen Gohan would defeat Broly, all I'm saying is that since Adut Gohan wasn't outclassed, he would at least give a decent fight, and since SSJ2 Goku is even stronger he would probably win, and since SSJ3 is even stronger he would own Broly.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 18:59, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

And I don't disagree with you that SSJ3 was stronger than SSJ2 (heck, the fact its called "SSJ3" would naturally imply that it was stronger). However, what I am saying is that doesn't mean that Broly will be defeated by Goku, regardless of ranking of power between the forms.

And regarding Adult SSJ2 Gohan, what I remember of the fight is Gohan landing an ineffective punch to the face on Broly, then being knocked back and slammed into a cliff by Broly, giving a kick that is left ambiguous as to whether it actually effectively hit him, and then doing a sidekick, which clearly didn't affect him at all, and then getting himself into a horrid backbreaker with Broly's knee doing the job, before eventually gathering enough strength to knee Broly in the face hard enough for even Broly to end up stunned long enough to release Gohan from his grip. Gohan did not put up a very good fight at all. A good fight would be how Goku managed to fight against Cell. The only reason Gohan won that bout, had you been paying attention, was because he tricked Broly into being caught in a lava pit, and as it was revealed shortly thereafter, that "victory" was hollow at best, and at worst completely fleeting due to Broly being immune to the lava (personally, I'm not sure why Gohan even bothered: His father already survived being shoved into a lava pit by Frieza during the late stages of the Namek Saga, and he wasn't even a Legendary Super Saiyan, but a regular, untrained Super Saiyan, so if his father could survive it, Broly most certainly can).

And while that explanation about why Goku told Gohan to retreat would make sense out of universe, it makes little sense in-universe especially if SSJ2 Gohan was supposed to be stronger than Broly.

Regarding why I frequently used the Kid Buu example, its because that was a perfect example of the limitations of the SSJ3 form among the living. Yes, Goku did effectively waste time regarding beating Kid Buu, but when he attempted to recharge, it actually worsened the energy drain than before (and honestly, if using SSJ3 prompts a rapid energy drain, its not worth using the transformation anymore than USSJ is worth transforming into). And perhaps you've forgotten, but Broly also has been proven to be notoriously hard to kill even from being wounded (heck, if we buy Raging Blast 2's take on things, not even being sent hurtling into the sun killed Broly.), and because of his Saiyan heritage, he also gets significantly stronger after recovering from each injury. Thse traits also makes him even more dangerous than Kid Buu, as we've got a guy who is insane as hell, can survive stuff even most Saiyans most likely wouldn't survive, and more importantly can get even stronger, whether it be automatically (as is the case with the LSSJ form) or from getting wounded and then recovering. Probably the closest one has come to being as much of a threat as Broly in that regard was Cell, and even he has at least stable enough to refrain from doing wanton destruction, and he [Cell] obviously wasn't even close to being as strong as Buu. Basically, to sum it all up, Broly would certainly be even more of a threat than Kid Buu. While Kid Buu can regenerate, can he actually grow stronger from regenerations like a Saiyan's Zenkai? No, not that I'm aware of. Either way, Broly's certainly more of a threat than Kid Buu is. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:27, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Edit: One last thing, if we want confirmation that LSSJ Broly is stronger than a SSJ3, look no further than to Shin Budokai, where LSSJ Broly was shown giving SSJ3 Goku a very difficult time. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:30, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

The explanation for Goku asking Gohan to free is the correct one, at the end of the day it's an anime and they don't want to look stupid.

You are forgetting that Kid Buu was alo insane as hell, he too was pure evil, that's why Supreme Kai wet his pants on seeing him, Kid Buu too can survive a lot of stuff that no Saiyyan would survive, He may not have Zenkai benefits but he has got regeneration that Broly lacks, he also has the ability to learn new attacks just by watching his opponents perform them and hell he can convert people into candy!!

Adult Gohan's fight with Broly proves just what I want to prove, he lost badly, BUT wasn't outclassed, and I assume that would mean that guys higher than him like Teen Gohan would give Broly decent competition and guys much higher than him like Goku SSJ2 would beat Broly, seems like you don't and there's not much I can do about that.

And don't quote Shin Budokai, I'd rather we stick to the manga and the movies, I mean Frieza defeated Broly in that crap , are we now going to argue that Freiza is stronger than an SSJ3?

About SSJ3 debate, this form can defeat anything that SSJ2 can defeat and some more whatever the limitations, Broly loses to SSJ2 Goku thus he loses to SSJ3 Goku, period.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 13:26, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

No, you only gave me the out-of-universe reason. There's a big difference between an out-of-universe reason and an in-universe reason for something occuring. Take Misty getting Togepi, for example: In-universe, the reason why Togepi went to Misty was because it imprinted onto her. Out of reason, they figured the female character should do the marketing of that Pokemon. Better example: the In-universe explanation for one of the characters leaving the cast of How I Met Your Mother was that she was disgusted with a joke Barney told and took her three whole weeks to cool down. Out-of-universe, she left because her actress was nearing delivery of her baby and was due, and thus she took maternity leave. See the distinction?

I haven't forgotten about those points. And BTW, video games aside, I'm not sure Kid Buu even does the whole candy beam even if he is technically capable of it. Considering that Bibidi didn't even think of using Buu's love of sweets until he became fat to control him, not to mention the only instances where Buu actually consumed his prey up to that point was via absorption (which works even on foes much stronger than himself, a key example being Gohan and Gotenks, both of whom clearly outclassed Super Buu), with the candy beam not being used even once, I'm not sure that would even be a factor in their theoretical match. Even if he were to actually be able to use it, he seems to care more about destruction than eating at all.

If someone loses badly, that means they are outclassed. There is no room for debate about that.

Since the Wiki pointed that out, yes. Plus it was implied he was channeling Janemba's power anyhow.

And Broly and SSJ2 Goku never actually fought each other, either. Another thing, even though Bills is most likely stronger than Broly (as confirmed by his own creator), Broly at least was capable of destroying Galaxies (Movie 8 proved that). I don't think Kid Buu was even stated to actually be capable of destroying Galaxies, just planets. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:24, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Outclassing for me is what occured when Gohan and the other guys fought Broly the first time, the second time Gohan lost, he wasn't outclassed, i.e he made progress compared to the first fight and wasn't as hopeless as that one which indicates that further progress would push Broly even harder possibly defeating him, I don't claim Teen Gohan is stronger or equal to Broly, I do however caim that Goku SSJ2 probably is and that Goku SSJ3 certainly is.

Addditionally I'm not sure why you insist on an in universe reason, It's extremely obvious that out of universe reasons Dominate over them, the main product in the Dragon Ball franchise is Dragon Ball Z without any doubt, they just can't make it look stupid.

And dude Vegeta could destroy earth when his power level was a measely 18,000, kid Buu was like a zillion times stronger than him, just because it's not mentioned that he can destroy Galaxies doesn't mean he can't.

Let me also give you an example of why I consider Kid Buu to be stronger than Broly, Fat Buu knocked adult Gohan out with two hits, Gohan couldn't lay a finger on fat Buu(that's called Outclassed) , Broly couldn't do that , he dominated Gohan but didn't knock him out in a hit or two, infact he got some good hits to himself. Kid Buu was stronger than even Fat buu, when Fat Buu beats Adult Gohan so much more easily then Broly, isn't it just logical that Kid Buu being above Fat Buu is much above Broly.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 17:15, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Vegeta, he had to charge up the Galick Gun up, so it doesn't disprove Broly's strength (whom, BTW, is capable of destroying planets without even needing to charge up). Also, Saiyan Saga Vegeta is only 8,000 above baby Broly, Bardock, and Vegeta, and that in no way is "measley." A "measley" power level would be a power level of 2 (and that's confirmed by Goku being sent off Planet Vegeta and some of the doctor's comments about Goku). And considering the flashbacks shown did not show Kid Buu destroying galaxies at all (heck, compared to Broly, if we go by Supreme Kai's account, Kid Buu most likely took his time compared to Broly).

If the wikis insist on in-universe reasons (like biographies of the characters and the like), then I do. There's no room for debate there.

And in case you've forgotten, Broly has a tendency to not dodge attacks coming his way, simply because he, you know, doesn't need to dodge them. And its not like he can't dodge attacks: He was perfectly capable of dodging Piccolo and Goku's fast attacks. And Broly's also insane and sadistic, and thus prefers to cause pain to his opponents rather than knock them out quickly. Plus, he's a Saiyan, and Saiyans have a tendency to just draw out a battle specifically because they enjoy the fight.

One last thing, you mentioned that Buu was able to learn anything he sees instantly. I probably should remind you that Goku managed to not only learn the Kamehameha, but also improve upon it just from watching Master Roshi use it, and even Vegeta learned how to sense power levels unaided shortly after his fight on Earth (not to mention move really fast, both of which he demonstrated to Cui before slaughtering him). If Goku and Vegeta could pull it off, Broly, being of the same species as them and most certainly being stronger than them, most certainly can as well. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 01:35, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Vegeta's strength while he was fighting Broly is in the range of 500 million+ if not a billion, 18,000 is very much measley compared to that, in fact measley is probably not a good enough word, we aren't even talking of SSJ2 Vegeta right now, and Kid Buu was far stronger than even him.

As for the Supreme Kai, he wet his pants on seeing Kid Buu, I don't think he had a comparable reaction to Broly.

I'm not quite sure why you keep referencing Broly's original fight with the 4 saiyyans and Piccolo, anything he did there, anything, could have been equally well done by teen Gohan as proved by his fight with Cell Juniors who were at the same level as Vegeta ,above Piccolo and just slightly below Goku.

Some attacks can be learned on seeing them being performed, some can't be, Buu's speciality was his ability to learn every single one of them, why do you think Vegeta was unable to learn instant transmission whereas Buu did?

You still haven't answered my comparison of SSJ2 adult Gohan's fight with Fat Buu and Broly, 2 hits from Buu and Gohan was done, I don't remember similar things happening against Broly.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 04:02, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

First of all, Supreme Kai never even encountered Broly at all, so don't claim that Supreme Kai didn't have that reaction regarding Broly (heck, Broly wasn't even mentioned at all in the Manga/Anime.). And either way, he was fairly calm when explaining who Majin Buu and Babidi were to the Z-Fighters when on their way to Babidi's ship.

Second of all, Vegeta when fighting Broly was nowhere close to 500 million or a billion. Heck, if we go by the V-Jump Power levels (which exclusively showed his Movie 8 incarnation as stills when covering his LSSJ form), Broly had a power level of 1,400,000,000. Considering how easily Vegeta got owned by Broly (not to mention how fearful Vegeta was for most of the movie of Broly), Vegeta would have to be at best in the 50,000 range, maybe the 1,000,000 range at best.

And considering how Master Roshi reacted when Goku used the Kamehameha the first time around (being surprised that he learned and mastered it that quickly), the Kamehameha was not one of those attacks that could be easily mastered in a short period of time. And who said anything about Vegeta not learning Instant Transmission? Not all people have to instantly use the abilities frequently upon learning them. Heck, Vegeta was also implied to have access to the USSJ form, yet deliberately avoided using it. The only instance where it is explicitly confirmed for an ability to actually take a lot of time, if even that, to gain, much less master, is the Super Saiyan transformations, and even that was made clear that it required desperation, rage, possibly a pure heart, and definitely a certain level of power beforehand.

And no, the Cell Juniors are absolutely not comparable at all, and you know it. At least Vegeta, Piccolo, and Trunks actually did fight toe-to-toe with the Cell Jrs., they were manhandled by Broly without the latter even breaking a sweat. It's obvious that it is not comparable at all. And besides, as cited many times before, Goku told Teen Gohan to flee, despite knowing about his inner power at the very least, if not his Super Saiyan 2 transformation, and Gohan ended up being beaten extremely badly by Broly. That alone should have made it very obvious that SSJ2 Teen Gohan would not have lasted at all against Broly. Heck, Burst Limit even confirmed it in Broly's story mode.

And I did reply to you about the whole Buu argument. I'll post it again, in quotes, just in case you didn't read it the first time around: "And in case you've forgotten, Broly has a tendency to not dodge attacks coming his way, simply because he, you know, doesn't need to dodge them. And its not like he can't dodge attacks: He was perfectly capable of dodging Piccolo and Goku's fast attacks. And Broly's also insane and sadistic, and thus prefers to cause pain to his opponents rather than knock them out quickly. Plus, he's a Saiyan, and Saiyans have a tendency to just draw out a battle specifically because they enjoy the fight." That explains why Buu took out Gohan quickly with the latter hits not connecting. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 04:31, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

You know perfecty well that I was referring to Supremem Kai's reaction to Kid Buu, tell me why Supreme Kai thought that he should personally visit the planet to prevent Buu from hatching, but didn't care at all about Broly?

About the power levels have you ever watched the anime/ read the Manga?, quoting random sources just makes you sound dumb, Frieza was a million in his first form, his 1% form was at least twice as strong, that makes his 100% form about 200 million already, Untrained SSJ Goku overpowered that easily, they had 3 years of training on earth and 1 year of time chamber training after that, Vegeta actually had two, he wasn't far off from Goku, do you have trouble believing that 5 years of intense training can lead to a 5 fold increase in power, Vegeta was indeed close to a billion according to Manga.

Vegeta never learned instant transmission, that's why he wanted Goku to do that when fleeing from the Kid Buu's earth Destruction, Vegeta is much more of a genius compared to Broly who is semi-insane and if Vegeta can't learn the attack

it's clear that learning  attacks is not a all pervasive skill.

Cell Juniors are very much comparable to Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo and Goku, if you are going to point out that Broly is capable of dodging their attacks, then I'm going to point out that Teen Gohan is capable of dodging Cell Juniors, He was toying with them too, yet they were destroyed in single hits.

Besides whenever a point is raised about why Broly couldn't do something your default answer seems to be "He was just toying, not using full power", nobody toys with their opponents after being kneed in the face, and Broly very much wanted to destroy Goku considering how angry he was at the sight of him, really pretty much the only explanation/proof you have regarding Broly being over Fat Buu is "He was toying", really dude, give me an actual solid reason, just because Broly is below Fat Buu while toying with Gohan doesn't mean he is above Fat Buu at his full power, Fat Buu wasn't serious in his fight with Gohan either, in fact he never got serious until Vegeta arrived, yet Gohan went down in a flash, non-serious Fat Buu > non-serious Broly can easily mean that serious Fat Buu> serious Broly.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 16:27, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

First off, Kid Buu murdered many of his own friends, so he definitely would have a lot of personal investment towards Kid Buu (South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin were absorbed by Kid Buu, BTW, which isn't an indicator of whether they were weak, especially when Super Buu absorbed Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan despite their clearly being far stronger than him, so the only ones where Kid Buu was actually confirmed to be far stronger are Western Kaioshin and Northern Kaioshin). As far as why he wouldn't bother going for Broly, let me remind you that South Kai (who is even WEAKER than Supreme Kai) didn't bother to lift a finger against Broly despite his blowing up most if not all of his Galaxy, and if King Kai is anything to go by, the Kais are weaker than even Frieza, much less Broly. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they were stronger than Broly at all. It's usually a stupid rule about how gods aren't supposed to directly meddle in mortal affairs, even if they are perfectly capable of doing that. It's a frequent theme that's been around since polytheism was all the rage way back when.

As far as the power levels, I watched the anime a few times (not the manga, though). However, since Broly isn't a part of the anime and manga (and by that, I'm not counting movies. If most people don't count movies and filler as standard for the anime, no reason to consider them that), you obviously can't restrict it to that. And anyways, we have no real confirmation on exactly how power increases occur and by what amount. We did when scouters occurred, but that ended after Frieza and King Cold ended up killed by Future Trunks. Heck, the power levels sometimes conflict (such as one guide giving Recoome a higher power level than Goku, despite a line by Jeice suggesting otherwise).

Fine, point taken on Vegeta, although given that Goku learned Instant Transmission within a year at most (since that's how long it took between the Frieza and Trunks Saga when he returned to Earth), that still doesn't change anything.

And when Saiyans are angered, they generally try to go for a slow and painful death. When its clear that they are capable of going all out and wiping them out within a second, that definitely means they are holding back, and it was pretty clear that Broly intended to cause pain towards Gohan and Goten, not just kill them. Otherwise, he would have killed them within a second (especially seeing how they weren't able to fight back). Heck, Nappa did exactly that when Gohan and Krillin wounded him, tried to give them a slow and painful death, and it was very obvious that he was stronger than them. It should have been obvious by this point that characters rarely, if ever, go all-out in this series. And toying with your opponents means not going all out. The only way to fight seriously is to go all out, no limitations to yourself whatsoever. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:00, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Supreme Kai came to earth to prevent Buu's hatching since he believed that the universe would be in danger if it happened, if you are correct and Broly was stronger than Buu then Supreme Kai should have paid a visit there without doubt, the fact that he didn't implies that Broly wasn't a comparable threat.

About the power levels, we very much have instances of knowing power gains, Goku's power increased 20 fold in his one month training with King Kai but that was a special training, his power increased 10 fold during his travel to Namek, the time chamber training was as intense and longer in time, a 5X increase is minimal, could easily be more, hence I can very well say that Vegeta is at a billion while fighting Broly, no doubt about it.

Need I remind you what Nappa did when Gohan punched him into a rock?, He made an attack which would have destroyed Gohan so Piccolo sacrificed himself to save him, that staight away throws your theory of "Saiyyans going for slow/painful deaths when angered" into the Gutter, Broly's anger on seeing Goku was similar, not even the power controlling device could withold his anger, and he was angry when Gohan kneed him in the face, fact of the matter is that the only person Broly managed to kill was his own dad, He got beaten by the power of 5 practically dead Super Saiyans equivalents, he then got beaten by 3 super saiyans, a person with as high a power level as you describe him to be wouldn't be defeated that easily, period. 

An SSJ3 is considered to be 8*SSJ, if 5 almost dead SSJ's can finish Broly, I'm not sure how you even give him a chance aginst SSJ3.

Characters in the series very much go all out when they are angry or hurt, and Broly was angry as well as hurt, saying that he never went all out is a hypothesis at best and crappy logic in reality.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 18:25, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Except Nappa had been planning to kill Gohan and the surviving Z-Fighters anyways, especially seeing how they had no need anymore. What, with the Dragonballs being confirmed to work on Earth and thus planning to go to Namek for the Dragonballs there. And I was referring to when Krillin managed to make a gash on Nappa. Nappa personally vowed to make them suffer a very long and painful death as revenge for the injury, being very clearly angry. If Saiyans did go all out when angered, please explain why Nappa told Krillin he would make him suffer a painful death despite clearly being capable of killing him outright? By your logic, Nappa would have single handedly vaporized Krillin in a second utilizing all of his power, leaving Nappa exhausted afterwards.

And Broly WASN'T defeated that easily. If he were "defeated that easily," he would have been dispatched as effortlessly by the Z-Fighters as Cell dispatched Mr. Satan during the Cell Games, especially considering they ganged up on him and were most likely going all out to stop him. Also, going by your logic, they would have effortlessly defeated Broly just by ganging up on him especially while they were fresh, not being beaten around effortlessly by Broly. And BTW, two ASSJs (of which one ASSJ is explicitly stated by Vegeta to be 3x that of a SSJ), two FPSSJs, and a Super Namek (altogether equivalent to 9x SSJs) had been beaten around effortlessly by Broly. If near dead characters of those rankings could defeat Broly with donations, they most certainly could without any effort when ganging up on him, which it was pretty clear they couldn't.

And again, Supreme Kai had actually experienced Majin Buu for himself, it being responsible for the deaths of two of his friends (South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin were absorbed by Buu, not killed outright, so they don't count), so he also had a lot of personal investment in it as well. And besides, one of the trailers for Second Coming explicitly stated that Broly was the strongest being in the universe, and let me remind you that Second Coming, if we go by air dates, occurred AFTER Buu was released, so yeah, PR, official word of God in other words, even implied that Broly was stronger than Buu. To say nothing about how Broly's own creator stated that he was stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta (and official word of god by the series development team triumphs all, either way). The only characters explicitly confirmed to be stronger than Broly absolutely are Bills and Whis. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 18:57, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

No, you explain to me why Nappa didn't go for a low and painful death for Gohan considering he was clearly capable of it, the logic of "had no need anymore" is senseless, what need did Broly have of keeping the Z fighters alive?

You don't have a understanding of how power levels work in the series, a person of level 2X would easily take down 5-6 persons of power level X ganging up on him, he does not need to be 7X to do that, however if those 5-6 guys choose to transfer their powers to a single one of them then that 5-6X guy would dominate, as Goku did against Broly.I am not surprised that you have choosen to fall back on your tried and tested "HaHa Broly defeated those five" theory, in spite of it meaning zilch considering Teen Gohan took down more number of equally powerful enemies, cell juniors were even to Vegeta, so Gohan took down, 21 X SSJ worth of enemies, does that make his power level 21 times an SSJ in your book?

An SSJ3 actually has a power level of 8XSSJ's, (In contrast to being able to defeat 8 SSJ's for which the power requirement is much lower.) if an SSJ3 was to fight individual SSJ's he would easily take down 50-60 of them, all being one hit deaths. Goku when charged up by almost dead Z fighters would barely manage a power level of 3-4XSSJ, tell me how exactly was that enough to tear Broly's guts out with a single punch?

It is explicity stated in both the anime and the manga that the only reason supreme Kai visited earth was because the Universe was in danger from Buu, any sentimental crap you are trying to throw about is utter nonsense.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 19:25, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Utter sentimental nonsense? The Anime explicitly stated that as well, or did you conveniently forget his story to Old Kai? And it should be noted as well that Supreme Kai never told the Z-Fighters about how his friends were killed by Buu, either.

And 8x Super Saiyans literally means 8 Super Saiyans. If you have one apple and you decided to multiply them by eight, you get eight apples. In other words, you only need eight Super Saiyans to get the equivalent power of a Super Saiyan 3. It's basic mathematics. So if two Super Saiyans, two Ascended Super Saiyans (which are stated to give the user a 3x power increase by Vegeta), and a Super Namek (which was stated to be at least as strong as, if not stronger than, a Super Saiyan) were capable when near death to actually nearly kill Broly, they most certainly can defeat him when they are fresh and ganging up on him (how exactly is ganging up not a combination of their powers? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever under any logic.).

And the Cell Juniors weren't more powerful, not if they only fought equally to ASSJ Trunks, ASSJ Vegeta, and Picccolo, three characters whom, BTW, Broly effortlessly beat in movie 8 (heck, they were still standing when Gohan went SSJ2). The only one of the Super Saiyans whom the Cell Juniors actually beat was Goku, and that's only because he was worn out from his fight with Cell earlier and never got a chance to eat a Senzu Bean. Now, if they actually overpowered Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo effortlessly, and while at the latter three were at full strength, THEN you have a point there.

And Broly didn't have a need, and he he was sadistic as well. That's reason enough. Heck, its been a common trait in villains in the franchise, even heroes as well (remember SSJ2 Gohan basically making sure Cell was humiliated and given lots of pain, despite clearly being powerful enough to kill him in a second if he so wished?). Plus, he also basically desired a fight like any other Saiyan (something that both the English and Japanese versions made very clear).

And I was mistaken about Gohan, happy? But it still stands with Krillin, where he did in fact vow to make sure Krillin met a very painful death despite being more than capable of outright obliterating him with minimal power, much less maximum power.

Now, had the topic been whether Bio-Broly is stronger than a SSJ3, I would answer not even a chance. Heck, Krillin actually managed to do very well against Bio-Broly, despite being OHKO'd by the real deal in Movie 10 (and with a comparatively weak attack, no less). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:42, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Cell juniors were even to Vegeta but their number (7!) was more than what Broly fought, that's why Gohan had a tougher fight on hands, besides I don't have much left to say, you clearly don't have an understanding of how power levels work in DBZ universe and are not willing to accept facts,Yes, it's a fact that Ganging up does not work in DBZ, combining your powers in one person does, that's how Broly was defeated in movie 8., that's how Gohan who is just 2X FPSSJ, managed to defeat 7 cell juniors who were each at FPSSJ each, that's how Broly dominated the fight early, that's how 18 defeated Vegeta and Trunks SSJ's, that's how Kid Buu proved to be unsurmountable for Goku, Vegeta and Fat Buu combined, In all the examples the defeated side had more overall strength but were still defetead, if you have trouble accepting that, then go watch the anime again, clearly your current knowledge is insufficient

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 03:07, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

oh man..........

ssj2 adult gohan didnt stand a chane against broly. he just landed some hits when he was caught off guard, that only stunned him. besides broly was just toying with ssj2 adult gohan i.e he didint use full power. so ssj2 teen gohan should be able to hurt broly more, land a few more punches and kick, but i think thats it. broly gets angry, teen gohan gets pwned. people exaggarate ssj2 teen gohan's power too much i think. he could be around 20% stronger than adult gohan. i dont think it is enough to defeat broly.LancerEX (talk) 07:51, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

First thing first, whatever I bolded is just random stuff, It's not mentioned anywhere and there is no proof for it, I could just as well say that Gohan didn't fight at his full strength against Broly and it wouldn't mean a thing, the rest of what you said is more sensible and I wil try to expain my point :

How well Adult Gohan fought against Broly is a subjective point, I think he did well enough that teen Gohan would match Broly, but let's say what you are saying is true and even Teen Gohan while he would give a good fight to Broly will be defated eventually, however next comes SSJ2 Goku, who due to his 7 years other world training is actually much stronger than Teen Gohan,(remember his ssj was about the same as Gohan's ssj during cell saga, so his ssj2 would be about the same as Gohan if he could magnage that in cell saga, and over the course of  7 years it wil become much much stronger.)

You yourself say that teen Gohan will at least do a decent fight against Broly, thus I argue that SSJ2 Goku being much stronger should be enough to beat Broly, but let's say even he isn't good enough, however ssj3 is much much faster and stronger than ssj2 thus now that we are a full 2 levels over teen Gohan you gotta agree that ssj3 can defeat Broly.

So to summarise, Adult Gohan < Teen Gohan < SSJ2 Goku << SSJ3 Goku, since teen Gohan is giving Broly at least a decent fight, the levels above that should be enough, period.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 16:33, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, there was proof: Broly said at one point in the battle "If you just let me kill you all before, you wouldn't be in this kind of pain now. You're all a worthless waste of Saiyan blood!" That made it pretty clear that he was indeed toying with them at that point. And Gohan was in fact using his full strength to defeat Broly, as he needed to defeat him.

As far as Teen Gohan matching Broly, considering how Goku reacted in Movie 8 (telling Gohan to flee the battle, despite his knowing at the very least about Gohan's hidden power, if not his SSJ2 form), I sincerely doubt Teen Gohan would even have a chance against Broly, SSJ2 or not. Otherwise, Goku would not tell him to retreat. Also, regarding Goku, he isn't allowed to return to the land of the living when dead unless someone like Fortuneteller Baba summons him for a single day. Even if he were to break the rules (like he did in Bojack Unbound), he'd only last a few seconds, which, while probably long enough to free Gohan from the grip of Broly, would not work in actually defeating him. Heck, transforming into SSJ3 significantly shortened his temporal energy, so it wouldn't have worked anyways. And considering that ASSJ was stated to be triple that of a Super Saiyan by Vegeta (and considering he and Trunks trained separately thanks to Vegeta forcing him not to interfere, I'm doubtful it was merely due to training), two ASSJs were unable to beat Broly, not to mention two FPSSJs (which fight longer), and a Super Namek (stated by Krillin to be on the same level as, if not stronger than a Super Saiyan), which combined would be nine times a Super Saiyan, were unable to defeat Broly by ganging up, I'm doubtful SSJ3 would have worked anyways, certainly not SSJ2. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:36, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Try to read my views a bit more clearly, when I'm referring to Broly using/Not using his full power I'm referring to the Broly's second coming, not the first movie.

(and Seriously dude even if I was referring to the first movie, I'm not quite sure how Broly saying that makes you infer that he is not using his full power, He is just taunting the Z fighters here, nothing more or less.)

I have already told you that the same two ASSJ's two FPSSJ's and Piccolo which broly defeated

were at about the same power at that of cell juniors, SSJ2 Gohan defeated cell juniors, so if Broly was above that combined 9 * super saiyyan, well so was SSJ2 Gohan, doesn't prove a damn thing.

About the rest of your para, I'm not saying how Goku could have possibly fought Broly, I'm just comparing what would happen if they did Hypothetically, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by Goku not being alowed to enter the land of living, the topic is about comparing an SSJ3 to broly, how exactly do you do that without taking Goku in consideration?

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 18:59, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Ok let me point out something here. lets say there is a fight between two people-one is very strong and the other is weak. its kill or be killed. do you or anyone, think that the stronger person needs to use his full power the defeat the weaker one? Or, can the weaker person afford to use less than his full power to defeat the stronger one? No just no. you CANT say that adult gohan did not use full power against broly. it is only logical that gohan tried his best but failed. besides, considering the quote ("waste of saiyan blood" thingy) and his fighting philosophy, i CAN say that broly did not use his full power against adult gohan. basically i think broly used around 60%- 70% of his power against adult gohan, and it is also enough to defeat teen gohan. at full power brolymight be just as equal as ssj2 goku.

I may also clear something out: i cant prove that lssj broly> ssj3 goku. because i dont know too much about DBZ stuff, and the movie 10 ending got me. i cant also surely say that broly is equal to ssj2 goku(i dont think there is enough proof) but i think they are close. BUT, i am sure as hell that broly is not weaker than ssj2 teen gohan, and is currently the only thing i give a damn about.

LancerEX (talk) 15:57, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

---

How exactly do you know that Broly wasn't using his full power, what if Gohan was at 90% of Broly's power so Broly could dominate him only with his full power? It wasn't mentioned anywhere, all we know is that Broly was stronger, who knows how much? See why I said it was just random stuff?? 

And oh, I don't necessarily contradict that Teen Gohan is weaker than Broly, I'm just saying that he is close to his level, and I'm almost sure that SSJ2 Goku is above Broly and completely sure that SSJ3 Goku is above Broly.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 17:15, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Seriously, gohan at 90% of broly? man, i rather kill myself than believe that.LancerEX (talk) 17:27, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Duh, I'm not saying he was, I'm saying that there is no way to know where exactly he was, 99%, 90%,  80%,  50%, 20%, 1%?? and thus your statements about how Broly was using 60%?70%? can not be verified and are thus random and useless.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 17:35, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

I know this cannot be verified, but we can logically guess. If i say that lssj=ssj2=2xssj, then broly used more than 50%. Because 50% of LSSJ broly's power is actually equal to SSJ broly's power. If he used 50% power or less to defeat gohan then he didnt need to transform into LSSJ, he could have done it by being ssj. So, obviously it is more than 50%. it should not also be >90% because that indicates that broly tried hard or went all out, where actuallly he was just toying/torturing. So we can guess that it is between 50%-90%. I just mentioned the mean result:70%, and i dont see nothing wrong with it.

Besides, movie 10 broly could have overpowered 3ssj's (goku, gohan, goten). fpssj gohan+ssj goten should be about 30% to 50% (logical guess) stronger than fpssj goku. Because gohan fpssj+goten ssj is technically an ssj2, which should be much powerful than any fpssj i.e fpssj goku. So we get that lssj broly can overpower fpssj goku+fpssj gohan+ssj goten

=fpssj goku+ 1.3 times fpssj goku (30% strong)

And we know fpssj goku+fpssj goku=ssj2 goku. considering that goku became more strong just before turning ssj2 in the anime,i think it is not wrong to guess that ssj2 goku and lssj broly are more or less equal. I am not confident on my calculations, so do tell if i am wrong.LancerEX (talk) 06:28, October 28, 2013 (UTC)

-----

OK, let's do it your way, let's say Adult Gohan was about 60-70% of Broly's power, now we have to calculate two things : -

1. How much stronger is teen Gohan compared to Adult Gohan?

2. How much stronger SSJ2 Goku is compared to Teen Gohan?

--

The first question is answered by the fact that Goku mentioned that Dabura and Cell were about the same power level, Teen Gohan abolutely smashed Cell all over, Adult Gohan just about managed to go equal to Dabura, how much of a power gap do you think it is? To determine that consider how well FPSSJ Goku ~ FPSSJ teen Gohan fought against Cell?, he was slightly weaker, just as Adult SSJ2 Gohan was against Dabura, hence Adult SSJ2 Gohan is actually close to FPSSJ Teen Gohan, although almost certainly somewhat on the higher side.

Now FPSSJ Teen Gohan is half of SSJ2 Teen Gohan, so Adult SSJ2 Gohan is somewhat more than half, possibly 60%, some people also claim that Dabura was actually equal to Super Perfect Cell, that would make Adult Gohan stronger, possibly about 75% of teen Gohan, in any case, what that means is that Teen Gohan's level is about 33%-66% higher than adult Gohan, let's take the mean value, i.e 50%, so since Adult Gohan is about 65% of Broly, teen Gohan is about 98% and could possibly vary between 87% to 108% of Broly LSSJ.

--

Now comes the second question, how much stronger is SSJ2 Goku compared to Teen Gohan, when they fought Cell Goku FPSSJ was just slighty weaker than Gohan FPSSJ, you can almost say they were even, so if Goku somehow went SSJ2 in that fight, he would be just slightly weaker than Gohan SSJ2, now Goku trained in the other world for 7 years, when Goku trained for a month with King Kai during saiyyan saga his power level had gone from about 400 to about 8000, i.e in one month of training his power grew 20 times, however this time Goku would have trained much more lightly since there was no imminent threat, however the time for which he trained was much longer so these two factors cancel each other out, so an increase of 2-3 times in his power is almost trivial and possibly the minimum that could have happened, (and probably it was much larger.), in any case even if use the bare bare  minimum value of two times, and asume that during Cell saga Goku was about 95% of Gohan, his power comes out to be somewhere close to 0.95 * 98%* 2  ~  185% of Broly and do remember that this is the barest of bare minimum value.

SSJ3 Goku is 4 times that of SSJ2 Goku, so he comes out to be 700%+ of Broly, you can see there is not even competition between them, Goku could probably knock out Broly with a single Punch in SSJ3 form.

--

I believe that most of my calculations are pretty good, do mention if you disagree with any point, although even if you do I'd say any correction would still not be enough to take Broly up to Goku SSJ2's level, forget the SSJ3.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 08:20, October 28, 2013 (UTC)

".......possibly about 75% of teen Gohan, in any case, what that means is that Teen Gohan's level is about 33%-66% higher than adult Gohan, let's take the mean value, i.e 50%, so since Adult Gohan is about 65% of Broly, teen Gohan is about 98% and could possibly vary between 87% to 108% of Broly LSSJ.

I didnt get that part. I thought if AG(adult gohan) is 75% of TG, then TG is 25% more powerful than AG (100-75).....right??

Besides, i think i am still right about the movie 10 thing i told earlier.LancerEX (talk) 14:11, October 28, 2013 (UTC)

----

That's a bit of percentage maths, it's multiplicative and not additive, In simple words : -

If Adult Gohan is at 75% of Teen Gohan that means that :

-

If adult Gohan's power = 75, teen gohan's power=100

If adult Gohan's power=100, teen gohan's power=133.

So he is 33% stronger then adult Gohan at the very very least.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 15:04, October 28, 2013 (UTC)

shouldnt there be a multiplyer? i mean broly is 60-70% was not actually eqaul to gohan, he was just stronger than gohan to overpower him.i mean 70% broly should be equal to 1.1-1.2 times (10-20% strong) than gohan,..... right?LancerEX (talk) 15:14, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Possibly, yeah he could be, but he is still way below SSJ2 Goku.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 17:30, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, i admit broly is weaker than SSJ2 goku, when ssj2=lssj=2xssj. But what if lssj=3xssj? that means he hardly used 50% of his power against adult gohan. Also, is it really possible in the dbz universe that FPSSJ can be more stronger than SSJ2?? because according to these data, FPSSJ goku(after 7 years)~ssj2 teen gohan>ssj2 adult gohan. I know it is mathematically possible, but i rather doubt it would be shown in the anime if there was a comparision.LancerEX (talk) 11:42, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

Broly can not be that strong, if he was so strong he wil not die to the family Kame Hame Ha even when hit by it, and if he was that strong Adult Gohan will not be able to fight the way he did, and if he was that strong he would kill Z fighters with single punches in the first movie, 3 times is a RIDICULOUSLY HUGE power gap in DBZ universe, people with power differences of barely 10-20% tend to have extremely one-sided fights, such a huge power gap will make Broly invincible which we cleary saw he was not. As to the second point different forms of SSJ are just power multipliers, eventually it's the base power that matters, so there is no reason why a SSJ or even a base Saiyyan couldn't be stronger than an SSJ2.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 18:31, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, the family kamehameha was of 3 ssj's, and broly would have still won the beam struggle if trunks didnt distract him. besides, he didnt die by kamehameha, the sun killed him. And i told that broly used less than 50% of his power against adult gohan, thats the reason why adult gohan managed to stun him. frieza was 40 times stronger then base goku, but he used less than 50% of his power( i exactly dont know how much) in the first fight. thats why frieza and goku were equal at first. broly toys with his opponents, he doesnt kill them right away. If he wanted to kill them he would have done it easily in movie 8.LancerEX (talk) 16:01, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, he didn't stand a chance at all. The only reason he "won" was because he tricked Broly into being caught in a lava flow, and even that proved to be fleeting (apparently Gohan forgot that his own father was able to survive lava in SSJ form during the Frieza Saga). And going by something Goku said in Movie 8, I'm extremely doubtful that SSJ2 Teen Gohan would have fared well against Broly, either. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:53, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

^fanboys  I am GokuBrolyVegeta. 12:06, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

get a life, broly haters LancerEX (talk) 13:42, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

i don't hate broly i just hate his fanboys  I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

14:15, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, Goten barely counts as a Super Saiyyan, secondly where the hell is it mentioned that Broly used less than 50% against Gohan? You just can't randomly say stuff for which there is no proof?, what if I told you that Goku actually became 3X stronger during his other world training(and that actually makes a hell lot of sense.), you will then just proceed to say that No-No Broly used less than 20% of his power against Gohan, In Freiza's fight it was explicity mentioned that he used 1% of his power initially and 50% after that, show me any incident in second movie which at least half validates what you are saying, puuling random stuff out of your hat isn't going to do that, and just for the record even if Broly was 3X Adult Gohan, which he was not, he would still barely nudge out the weakest possible SSJ2 Goku, the average SSJ2 Goku would still wipe the floor with him.

SSJ6Vegeta (talk) 16:45, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

*cough cough FANBOYS cough*

Yeah. KamehamehaLFD Say something already! 14:52, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

The fact is that broly got killed by adult gohan kid trunks goten and goku note that they were all ssj1 apart from trunks which passed out after giving some energy to help them with the super kamehameha. Now you cant say that broly didnt use fullpower coz he go annihilated,i dont think goku ssj1 gohan ssj1 and goten ssj1 could even hurt a ssj3 and if they beat broly then broly would get disintegrated by a ssj3.

Actually, no, Broly most likely wasn't even fighting at full power (if there even is such a thing as fighting at full power when in LSSJ form). Heck, Broly even made clear in Movie 8 that he hadn't even been fighting at full power, and besides which, most villains, or any character who was actually winning against the opponent, usually doesn't utilize their full power (and even the good guys usually avoid using full power to avoid causing collateral damage to people). And Gohan most likely was at SSJ2 when he fired the Kamehameha at Broly alongside Goku (sort of) and Goten to finish him once and for all (since his other lock disappeared completely). And regardless of whether SSJ3 is actually stronger than LSSJ or not, there is no way it can beat LSSJ due to the energy drain of SSJ3 (something that Goku and even Gotenks had experienced when using the form, with the former even being weakened to such an extent that he can no longer transform until Porunga restored his energy), and that's while the user is alive. When the user is dead and using temporal energy, they would need to fight seriously to stand a chance assuming it occurred immediately upon his arrival, as otherwise it would significantly reduce his remaining time by half, if not send them back to the Other World (as best demonstrated with Goku during the first unveilment of the form). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 01:14, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Weedle Mchairybu=Fanboy I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

15:46, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a fanboy of Broly, actually. In fact, I'm neutral to him. Don't support bad guys, after all. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:36, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that ssj3 goku will not finish broly before his energy would start going down? i think it takes one attack to decimate him from a fullpower ssj3. goku at ssj3 could have killed kid buu but he wanted to give vegeta a go to fight him, kid buu is by far more superior then broly in every way. 

Don't forget Gotenks when using his SSJ3 form: He fought Super Buu (who is obviously stronger than Kid Buu) in a similar manner, yet he ended up undergoing similar effects long before the defuse time even ran out. And unlike Goku, he didn't even have the excuse of wanting to give another person a shot. And either way, considering what happened when they accessed SSJ3, its not likely that he would have been able to beat Broly easily. Heck, Broly in Movie 8 already took down two ASSJs (which are explicitly stated to be three times as powerful as a regular Super Saiyan), two FPSSJs, and a Super Namek, which are roughly equivalent to, if not exceeding that of a Super Saiyan 3, which the guides make clear are 4x that of a Super Saiyan 2, or eight times a Super Saiyan. Since Broly took out what was the equivalent of 9x Super Saiyans, that should be obvious enough that Broly is perfectly able to handle a Super Saiyan 3. His own creator even implied that he could take out SSJ4 Gogeta. And BTW, you may personally think Kid Buu is stronger, but unless it is confirmed by one of the development staff themselves, whether he is stronger or not is unconfirmed. Actually, based on what his creator said, not to mention Broly actually giving SSJ3 Goku a run for his money in Shin Budokai, its confirmed officially that Broly is indeed at least as strong as, if not even stronger than a SSJ3. The only characters actually confirmed to be capable of defeating Broly unambiguously and without effort are Bills and Whis. While Hatchiyak is stated to be about as strong as Broly in Tuffles' Revenge, its also implied that this was only for Movie 8, and Movie 10 Broly obviously would outclass him due to his Zenkai in that movie. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:36, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

If the Z fighters were to fight ssj2 teen gohan all at once he would defeat them just as broly did remember what he did to the cell juniors at the cell games which were stronger than vegeta, picollo and trunks (who were at the same power levels in broly movie 8).  I think broly is weaker than ssj3 and ssj2 goku but equal to teen gohan ssj2. In the movie bojack unbound the z fighters were at the same power levels they were at in broly(movie 8) and  bojack and his team defeated them almost as easily as broly. However ssj2 teen gohan  defeated bojack  with ease now considering brolys zenkai boost in movie 10 I think he and teen gohan are equal in power but broly is no where as strong as ssj2 goku, he only beat gohan in movie 10 only because adult gohan ssj2 form was pathetic compared to his younger form.

In case you've forgotten, Goku told Teen Gohan to retreat, despite knowing about Gohan's SSJ2 form even without Gohan himself knowing about it, not to mention it factoring into his plan for defeating Cell in secret. That alone should prove that SSJ2 Teen Gohan would not have been a match for Movie 8 Broly, never mind Movie 10 Broly (otherwise, Goku would not have ordered Gohan to leave, quite the opposite in fact). And no, its still not comparable. It would have been comparable if the Cell Juniors brought all of the Z-Fighters to their knees in five seconds. They still were fighting toe-to-toe with Vegeta, Piccolo, and Future Trunks (and they probably would have had similar evenness with Goku had he had a senzu bean beforehand, anyways). by the time Gohan transformed into SSJ2, with just a slight edge on the Jrs. favor. Its not comparable at all. Not to mention Broly did not actually destroy the Z-Fighters, though he certainly gave them a huge beating. SSJ2 Gohan actually destroyed them. Also, Tien and Yamcha weren't even involved in Movie 8 at all, so no, they weren't close to their Movie 8 power levels as they weren't involved at all. And BTW, Krillin, while he was definitely involved in Movie 8, never actually fought Broly (Goku told him to retreat earlier, and going by his heeding Goku quickly, he agreed that he doesn't stand any chance against Broly). If anything, the fact that Krillin actually was able to have a better chance at fighting the Galaxy Warriors implies that they were weaker than Broly, possibly weaker than Androids 13, 14, and 15 (seeing how Krillin also realized they were way out of his league, hence why he backed out of the fight). This was also supported by Goku's full confidence that Gohan can beat Bojack and the other Galaxy Warriors, whereas Goku made clear that Gohan should flee the premises immediately when fighting Broly, despite his knowledge about his SSJ2 form. Oh, and another thing, Shin Budokai already proved that LSSJ Broly was at least as strong as, if not even stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and that game (a remake of Fusion Reborn) took place AFTER the Kid Buu Saga. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 04:52, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Weedle you are so annoying, Goku told Gohan to run because the manga chapter of gohan turning SSJ2 was released on the 15th of february and movie 8 was release the 6th of march that means that the movie was almost complete when the SSJ2 transformation was reaveld, and Video games are not sources stop using them I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

14:33, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

That may be the out-of-universe reason for it, but guess what. The only thing that actually matters is the in-universe reason, of which there was absolutely no reason for Goku to tell Gohan that in-universe other than SSJ2 Teen Gohan being weaker than Movie 8 LSSJ Broly. And besides, they knew about the transformation, and could have easily altered it at any time (even remove Gohan from the movie altogether just to avoid the implication that SSJ2 Gohan was weaker than LSSJ Broly, but they didn't. And please don't tell me they didn't have time. They can just delay the release to fix it up. If MGS2 got delayed due to 9/11, they most certainly can do the same here. And if this wiki can count video games as sources on various articles, so can here, especially seeing how there is no rule stating not to use video game sources for this debate. Heck, by your logic, we shouldn't even bother debating Broly's power since he's not from the manga nor is he from the anime, with movies generally being considered non-canonical. You don't like it, that's your problem. Heck, Return of Cooler had Dende being the Guardian of the Earth, even though the event where Dende became the Guardian of the Earth hadn't even occurred until nearly a year later in terms of production, whether it be the manga or the anime, so even that is absolutely no excuse, especially seeing how the movies did not usually care about not spoiling things early from the manga as Return of Cooler demonstrated. 19:12, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

out-of-universe reasons are more important than in-univerese reasons, and goku told gohan to run away because broly was crazy and he wouldn't let gohan have the transform, and if you want to use video games then broly is weaker than master roshi check ths [1] I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

20:17, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

While you are right that out-of-universe reasons are more important, in-universe reasons are still vital (otherwise we wouldn't have biography sections at all, and guidebooks detailing information about the characters won't exist either). Also, he wouldn't have even bothered letting Gohan fight Cell had that been the case (maybe I should remind you that Cell came very close to destroying the Earth with a Super Kamehameha during his fight with Cell, showing he was just about as dangerous and crazy as Broly, probably slightly less crazy at best due to having some self-restraint, with Goku luring the Super Kamehameha up to the sky being the only reason why Cell didn't succeed at that moment.). And BTW, had I been in Goku's position, I definitely would have made sure Gohan became a SSJ2, regardless of the risk of Broly killing Gohan, specifically because I know Broly's weaker than Gohan, not tell him to retreat.

And unless that was taken from one of the alternate sagas, the source you supplied isn't proof at all, as the player playing as Roshi just was more skilled as him. Unless the footage was from an actual story-mode in the game (such as the Saga chapters in the game, or even the alternate sagas, where it is mandatory that you play as a specific character and beat a specific foe), it simply does not qualify. I could easily show a video game clip of Kid Goku defeating Broly in a versus round, but guess what? I know that's not what happens canonically, not unless said event was part of the game's story mode. That is the only exception to video game playthroughs regarding proof, and I specifically cited the game's story mode, not a versus mode match, as proof. Unless you give me a specific instance in a video game's story mode (NOT a versus match, but story mode only), including a clip, I strongly suggest you back out of refuting that, because it won't work. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:10, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

dude that's from BT3 story mode it happens when you lose against broly as goku master will come out and there is absolutly no way that gohan could've transformed against broly go whatch the anime again and see how much it took gohan to get angry enough for the transformation to work I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

10:39, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I stand corrected, though the main storylines of the games are still canon (ie, those that don't end up deviating from the story due to actions the player undertook). And Gohan was getting pretty angry with Broly anyways in that film (I know because I saw his facial expressions, the expressions certainly looked angry to me, especially when he attempted to block Broly from his father near the start of the fight as well as seconds before Goku told Gohan to retreat). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 12:35, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

dude come on video games are not canon and never should be used in a debate. and gohan always had an angry expression when he is fighting and look what cell did to make gohan transform into a SSJ2 i don't think broly will try the same thinh because he is crazy. Now i i'm gonna leave this thread and never come back because you are obviously a Brolytard I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

12:45, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

As I have addressed below, I am NOT a "Brolytard." Heck, I hated his actions and also largely dislike him because he's a villain. I don't support villains at all, as I have been taught to always hate evil. At best, I'm neutral towards him. You seem to think that any attempts at defending his power level automatically mean I'm a fan of Broly. I'm not, at all. Had I been an actual "Brolytard" as you put it, I would have also cheered him on in spite of his evil actions, which I do not do at all. Not that I expect you to even read it now. And one last thing, Gohan was in FPSSJ form, which actually allows for a range of emotions besides Anger to be constantly shown, so if he was shown to have angered expressions, it is out of genuine anger, not just the fact that he was a Super Saiyan. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:20, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Broly isn't Anywhere Close to SSJ3

I dont know why SO many people out there like to say that Broly is in the league of a SSJ3. It just doesn't make any sense! I'm not sure if they're fanboys, or whatever, but here's my take on the subject. 

In my opinion, Broly is not stronger than a SSJ3. I say this because there is nothing to suggest he is, simly put. In "Broly, The Legendary Super Saiyan" the only feat Broly performs is taking down two Full Power Super Saiyans, two Ascended Super Saiyans, and a Super Namek. That's nothing short of remarkable, but it doesn't prove anything, especially considering that with all their powers combined, Goku could defeat him with one punch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the power of 2 FPSSJ, 2 ASSJ, and a Super Namek don't equal a SSJ3, not even close!

2 FPSSJ + 2 ASSJ + Super Namek <<<< SSJ3

In "Broly: Second Coming," Broly defeats a SSJ2 Gohan. Obviously, since his previous bout with the Z-Fighters, he has gotten much stronger. This movie does prove he is more powerful than a SSJ2, which is also impressive, but still not enough evidence to 100% say that Broly = SSJ3, especially considering he was overpowered by 3 SSJ's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure 3 SSJs don't equal a SSJ3 either.

SSJ + SSJ + SSJ <<<< SSJ3

Now, your idea that Broly is stronger than a SSJ3 might not come from his battles, which I just went over, but from what he has said, especially in vidoe games. One quote includes, "My ki is rising." That one seems to me like the only quote which could possibly suggest Broly is stronger than a SSJ3, becasue his ki is always rising, thus it could surpass a SSJ3's eventually. However, Broly could have just meant he was powering up. 

So that's my opinion on the matter.

Evolve 20 (talk) 21:03, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

He also said it in the movie as well (well, kind of, he said "I'm getting stronger, yes, much stronger." And I'm doubtful he had much control to power up in that instance, considering he used Blaster Meteor to vent shortly thereafter). As for why I cited his defeating them as such was proof, its because 2 FPSSJs and a Super Namek equal 3 Super Saiyans. Take into account that Vegeta stated that the ASSJ form possessed three times the power of a Super Saiyan, and there were two ASSJs, and that equates to an equivalent of nine ASSJs. The guides stated that a SSJ3's equivalent is either 4 SSJ2s, or 8 SSJs, so you can pretty much guess where I'm getting at. And we've already had at least one confirmed instance of Broly being at least equivalent to a SSJ3: Shin Budokai, nearing the end of the game, he actually managed to give SSJ3 Goku a lot of problems. Also keep in mind that he had been clearly dead long by that point. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 03:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Mostly true, but you gotta consider that the SSJ2 Broly defeated was the weakest SSJ2 in the whole series, Goku and Vegeta SSJ2 were a lot superior to Adult Gohan SSJ2, so yeah Broly doesn't even come close to an SSJ3.

Weedle your just brolytard and you are the only one one this wiki that belive broly is stronger than SSJ2 Tenn Gohan  I am GokuBrolyVegeta.

10:44, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm no "Brolytard." Actually, I hate Broly for his actions, hence my views on him overall are neutral. And again, if Broly wasn't stronger than Teen Gohan, Goku would NOT have ordered Gohan to retreat. Quite the opposite, in fact, especially considering that he was perfectly willing to gamble Gohan's life against Cell in the very minute chance that Cell will be defeated by Gohan's hidden power (something, BTW, that his fellow Z-Fighters called him out for). And no, not even the claim that the movie was in development before the chapter debuted was an excuse, especially considering that Return of Cooler essentially spoiled that Dende would replace Kami as the Guardian of the Earth about seven months prior to the chapter's release (The film was released on March 12, 1992. The chapter where Dende became a Guardian didn't happen until October 19 of the same year). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 12:29, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

ASSJ is not 3x SSJ

Vegeta says he has more than tripled his strength, which does not mean his new form is 3x SSJ. It just means that his power level is triple what it was. This more likely means that vegeta has improved his base power enough that when powered up into his ASSJ form, his new max power is 3 times that of his old max power as SSJ. If ASSJ were strictly 3x SSJ, that would mean that Vegeta did very little training, as he would not have actually increased his power at all, rather he simply gained a new form, and we all know that is not true. This makes Broly not on par with SSJ3 during the first movie.

User:Specialbeamkamehameha/sig 16:10, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

He also said that Future Trunks was of a similar level of power to him when fighting Cell (both used the ASSJ level during that fight), and Future Trunks' flashbacks made it very clear that Vegeta and he did not actually train together, so yes, it did increase the SSJ transformation's power by threefold. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:14, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

If you'd read the page for Ascended Super Saiyan you would see why your belief is short sighted. Vegeta did not take very long to transform. The reason his power was triple that of his previous full power as a super Saiyan is that he spent several months training after his transformation, not because the new form tripled it.

User:Specialbeamkamehameha/sig 16:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Vegeta also stated that Future Trunks had a similar level of power to Vegeta, and that he would act as the next person in line to defeat Cell should Vegeta fail to finish off Cell. The flashbacks, heck, the fact that Future Trunks had to keep his USSJ form a secret from Vegeta (to the extent that he wasn't willing to transform until he was certain that Vegeta was knocked out out of fear of ruining his father's pride) made it clear that they did not actually train together (unlike Gohan and Goku). Heck, in one of the flashbacks, Vegeta actually yelled at Future Trunks when the latter tried to aid him. Please explain to me exactly how it was due to training that they had similar power increases when they were heavily implied to have not worked together during their training? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 18:07, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

You guys are forgetting that is Adult Gohan, who had lost his fighting skills due to studying all the time.

Power Levels Say.....Broly Wins!

Based solely on power levels, yes, Broly is stronger.

V-Jump scan from Broly's page puts him at 1,400,000,000.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku is around 1,200,000,000.

So again, based solely on power levels, Broly is stronger.

Broly VS SS3 makes no sense

The question makes no sense. Broly is a character while SS3 is a trasformation. 

In LSS, Broly has a level of 1.400.000.000.

SS3 multiplies the user's level x400. So SS3's level depends on the user's level. If user's level is 1.000.000 then in SS3 his level becomes 400.000.000, weaker than Broly.  If user's level is 1.000.000.000 then in SS3 his level becomes 400.000.000.000, stronger than Broly.

The correct question would be LSS VS SS3! But we can not certainly know. The power's multiplication factor of SS3 is x400. But the power's multiplication factor of LSS is unknown, and we can not even calculate it certainly. The level of Broly SSL is 1.400.000.000 but the level of Broly normal is Unknown.

                                                       

Broly obviously overpowers all super saiyan forms and super saiyan 2. (Movies 8 and 10). SSJ3 Goku would win if he could do one of 2 things

1) Kill Broly quickly before his own energy drained.

2) Gain a Full Power form of SSJ3 and own Broly.

Gotenks would be the same if he could do it before his energy was drained. Im just saying that SSJ3 takes a lot of energy and really wears out the user. LSSJ is the opposite it just gets stronger. But I believe base forms Goku destroys Broly so SSJ3 Goku would be stronger but he would have to get a Full-Powered form of SSJ3 to go all out with Broly. Once he no longer had the energy to maintain a SSJ3 though Broly would just thrash him. As he did in Movie 8. Goku SSJ2 would get pummeled too. The LSSJ form is ideal to be the strongest form of Dragon Ball Z. Not counting GT ofcourse.

I do believe however, if Goku could attain LSSJ he would be much more effective than Broly. As a matter of fact if LSSJ was given to someone who could control it and had a brain it would be on par with SSJG. But Broly is far to stupid to utilize the form right. But the energy keeps growing and getting stronger kinda like the HULK. Unfortunaley we only have Broly to compare because no one else has attained the form. But I believe if Goku or Vegeta or even Gohan could attain the form it would be used better.

So all and all, I believe LSSJ to be 2x stronger than SSJ2 and about half as strong as a SSJ3. Again, we have no way to calculate the LSSJ power increase, so as far as this shows, if Goku attained it, he would be even stronger. But I personally believe a SSJ3 to be uncontested in DBZ. (If you count Bills and Whiss, then bring on SSJ3 Vegito and settle all disputes.)