Mine, how the heck did Goku get a new pair of pants as a SSJ4 after becoming a Golden Great Ape? What's yours?
Mine, how the heck did Goku get a new pair of pants as a SSJ4 after becoming a Golden Great Ape? What's yours?
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
Tiger2025 wrote:
It was one writer's opinion who wrote the Tournament of Power. You have to realize that many different writers wrote the Tournament of Power. Also if Frost was going to lose by being hit by the Special Beam Cannon doesn't that mean that Piccolo is stronger. Goku is not even that reliable he did not know Frost was using poison when he said Frost was stronger than Piccolo. Also, Piccolo was shown to match Super Saiyan Goku in a speed contest with weighted clothing. Frost was decimated by Super Saiyan Goku in both speed and power. One writer opinion is not equal to an official Akira Toriyama statement or the anime/movie its self
To be fair, even Akira Toriyama saying it doesn't necessarily make it true, since we must remember he's the same guy that changed Pilaf's dog minion's name due to forgetting it, not to mention he also had Cell say he survived his self destruction due to his head surviving the blast despite him regenerating from Goku using the Warp Kamehameha on him and obliterating the entire upper half of his body.
And while it is true that the Tournament of Power was written by multiple writers, I'm pretty sure the writers wouldn't have given such absolute statements unless it was specifically intended to be the case. And with Goku, again, that at least had a mitigating factor (Piccolo being poisoned by Frost), while there was literally nothing else indicating such is the case other than sheer raw power here.
Also, technically, Jiren WAS an enemy, since Goku and Frieza needed to beat him to ensure their universe survived. He wasn't a villain, sure, but that doesn't make him any less of an enemy. If you fight on opposite sides, you are by definition enemies.
And again, if they really were wanting to give hype, they didn't need to state that Broly was stronger than a God of Destruction to promote said hype: His actions in the trailer where he managed to outclass even Super Saiyan Blue Goku without even transforming into his Super Saiyan form, let alone his Legendary form, heck, even featuring Broly in the film at all would generate hype in itself.
One of the first promotional statements about the movie said that Broly is rumored to be the strongest character, when Zeno's obviously stronger. That's not a mistake, it's literally hype. It's written to get people to watch the movie. So why can't the other statement be hype. You have reasons why you think it isn't, but no evidence.
Zeno doesn't fight, though, so he really doesn't count in this. It would be like saying Old Kai was stronger than Beerus just because the latter sealed him away due to viewing him as a threat to him, and that's despite the fact that it was made very clear that he wasn't stronger than Goten, let alone Beerus in terms of fighting ability. Yes, technically, Broly would at best be the second strongest character (third-strongest if we count Akira as canon), but the problem is that Zeno is explicitly stated to NOT BE A FIGHTER and thus NOT able to fight Goku and anyone else in a fair fight. That would mean that while Zeno is technically stronger than Broly, Broly would still be the strongest by default regarding actual fighting abilities. And THAT'S what's important here, since they're, you know, actually FIGHTING him unlike with Zeno.
Alright Zeno doesn't fight, but Whis does. Broly is not stronger than Whis or the Angels, and neither is Jirem. There's nothing that ever said so. You have no evidence that says it isn't hype, so why argue it?
To be fair, we really can't say for certain that he's not stronger than Whis or the Angels (what if Whis ends up crapping in his pants at Broly's power like Vegeta did in Movie 8? Are you seriously going to claim Whis is stronger after that?). We know he's definitely stronger than the Gods of Destruction based on their general use of the term rather than listing a specific one. And like I said, I'm pretty sure he's going to be stronger than Jiren. Or have you forgotten that Goku in the trailer while talking to Whis specifically mentioned that he wanted to get stronger AFTER the whole tournament of power, that it acted as a "wake up call." The implication with THAT is that he intends to get stronger by fighting stronger opponents than the ones he fought, which, yes, would include Jiren. If Broly weren't stronger than Jiren, he wouldn't get that wish (since he'd be facing an opponent who is WEAKER than Jiren, which by definition would NOT allow him to fight even stronger opponents). There'd be no point to him mentioning it at all if they weren't going to make Broly even more of a threat than any and all participants of the Tournament of Power combined. And just for the record, even though I do think Broly's a very well done character overall, I wouldn't want him to be stronger than Whis or even the Gods of Destruction (though only because I really didn't like how they made the various Gods into weaklings starting with King Kai and how he got killed easily by what was essentially a human-created bioweapon. Gods are supposed to be superior to mortals, and they can't be superior if they can be killed easily by them, something which BTW, not even the Greek and Roman myths have ever done with their gods. I actually kind of LIKED the Gods of Destruction, Angels, and heck, initially, even Zeno for the fact that they actually ARE stronger than mortals in every way.).
And like I said, even having Broly in the film at ALL would have been more than enough hype factor thanks to his massive popularity, let alone the trailer showing him giving even Super Saiyan Blues a hard time well before he even went Super Saiyan, let alone Legendary Super Saiyan. I know if I wanted to hype him up, the trailer alone would have done it, see zero reason to even indicate him being stronger than a God of Destruction, let alone be at least on par with Jiren or even stronger than that, or calling him the strongest character. In other words, unless I actually DO intend for him to be the strongest character, I would NOT call him that, not event to "please" Broly's fans, unless it actually IS the truth. I would not want to lie to the fans.
Didn't you read Whis's bio for the movie? It says that the Z Fighters could use Whis's help against Broly, but Angels aren't supposed to take sides. That says that with Whis Broly would be defeated. Also you argument is flawed because Jiren could have trained after the tournament, and got stronger as well. As for the promotional thing. You wouldn't put it as hype, but are you in Toei's writing staff? No you are not. I will say this once again. There is no evidence that states it's not promotional hype, so you can't treat it like it isn't.
Yeah, I don't buy that, considering the Angels, you know, took sides during the Tournament of Power (kind of needed to since, you know, not taking sides would require they screw over the universes they were to care for's existence). Trying to ensure their universe's survival is by definition taking a side.
And as far as Jiren, maybe he does train after the tournament, but we won't know because he's not even APPEARING in the movie. And besides, Goku and Vegeta trained after the tournament (heck, their literal last scene in the saga was them about to enter a sparring match in SSB forms to attempt to draw out MUI.), and that training didn't exactly help them against Broly if the preview is of any indication. If it didn't help them regardless of how stronger they might have gotten, it certainly isn't going to help Jiren either.
And like I said, the trailer, heck, Broly even being in the movie at ALL would have been its own hype, no need to report him as being stronger than that if he wasn't (and just as an FYI, I didn't even MIND Broly being weaker than Beerus initially since I actually hated the concept of the Gods being so weaker than mortals that they literally could be killed by them, and was somewhat glad we got gods that actually WERE superior to mortals in every way. Of course, they ended up ruining that with the Gods of Destruction in the Tournament of Power thanks to Jiren and MUI Goku being stronger than them, but still...). With your use of the word "hype", I guess Honest John car salespeople are using "hype" to sell irreparable and useless junk cars to people. Honestly, if they lied like that, even to promote "hype", I'd REALLY throw the book at them and make sure to draw a lot of their customers away as revenge for being lied to. Even my dad said that lying to your customers is NOT a good idea. And do I have to remind you of the Kalos League incident where they falsely implied Ash was going to win and how many fans on both sides of the pond expressed their outrage to the Japanese writers for that? Do you REALLY think the writers would want to RISK lying to their fans like that, ESPECIALLY for the sake of hype?
I find it funny how you don't believe the angel thing, but you do believe that Broly is the strongest. They only took during the tournament because their whole universe was on the line, not just a couple of mortals. Also a lot of angels actually didn't care about their universe. And it's only a lie if you believe in it. Don't you remember when many sources said that Goku would be eliminated by Jiren? That was hype that was well, just hype. Let me say it again. Where's your evidence that it isn't just promotional(see how I didn't say hype?)
Problem is, the angels by even trying to ensure their universes survived took a side. They could have easily just, I don't know, tried to erase the universes themselves thinking, hey, they're going to lose anyways, so why even bother letting them fight for their lives?
And no, if it's deliberately giving out false information, it is a lie. By definition, lying means intent to deceive a person. Even if people don't believe you, it doesn't change that you lied. As far as those sources, I'm pretty sure those were fan speculations instead of official statements by the writers. Besides, in a way, Jiren DID get Goku ringed out, only it was closer to Goku sacrificing himself to ensure Jiren got a ring out.
And as far as promotional, I cited the trailer, the beginning moments of it, where Goku and Whis are talking at the beginning. And since that's pretty obviously going to be in the movie, it's pretty clear it's not simply promotional stuff.
They won't taking sides at all. If they did erase their universe they would be taken the side against their universe. They aren't taking sides by just sitting in the bench and going with the flow. And how is the character bios written for the movie, by the creators, fan speculation? I guess it is a lie, but it's for promotional purposes. And it wasn't about that episode. It said Jiren would eliminate Goku in the episode where he fought Jiren in MUI. It's promotional. An your so called "evidence" is not proof. Because you don't know how much stronger Goku got, you just know he did. He got stronger, but that doesn't mean he's as strong as Jiren. Again there is no proof.
Well, training them for the tournament would STILL be taking sides anyways, which defeats the entire purpose of not taking sides. If they truly were obligated to not take sides, they wouldn't help OR hurt their universe's chances of survival, do literally nothing for the universe in question. Heck, Whis actually DID violate taking sides when he had Bulma give birth to Bulla early.
And I never said anything about movie bios by the creators being fan speculation, I said the claim about Jiren actually eliminating Goku was fan speculation (it literally only came about due to people analyzing the lyrics of the ending song). Learn to read. And in any case, Goku got himself eliminated to ensure Jiren was eliminated. Last I checked, that technically had Jiren eliminating Goku as a result. It's no different than when Piccolo killed Goku to ensure Raditz was defeated. And claiming Ash would win the Kalos league to such an extent that the episode title for the final match literally said as much was also technically done for promotional purposes. Want to know what happened after it aired and showed Ash losing again despite all the foreshadowing? People were outraged, with some even taking to Twitter to show their displeasure by throwing away various Pokémon Memorabilia in response and directing it to the official Pokémon anime twitter account, and it even impacted their viewership ratings regarding trailers (I know one of the youtube trailers for the next episode got a significant amount of downvotes, comparable to Mighty No. 9 and Paper Mario: Color Splash, that's how bad it was). And get this, a lot of the guys who did that were the Japanese base, meaning the one audience the writers could not afford to lose. If they did what you're suggesting they're doing with Broly, you can expect a very similar result from the fans regarding being lied to and manipulated. And we know he got stronger, that's more than enough as it is. It's still more proof than your claim that Jiren got stronger, which BTW, we have no way of knowing since he's not even IN the movie. The fact of the matter is, they specifically stated Broly's stronger than a God of Destruction (just a God of Destruction, without naming any names, which means he's effectively stronger than all of them in general), so it's still more likely than not that he's at least on par with Jiren if not actually stronger than him. And for the record, it IS proof. It comes from another source, which can be readily found, and actually SHOWS Broly doing several things, last I checked, that's the definition of proof or evidence.
Huh, I can't read but I can type out words? It's really quite remarkable what the human race is a capable of huh? Also the Angels aren't taking sides by doing that, they're just doing their job as being the attendant of their God of destruction. So training fighters at the request of their gods is not taking sides, but just doing the job that they were assigned to do by the Great Priest. Also most Angels didn't even care when their universes were erased. The only ones that were shown to care were Cus and Vados, and they were only sad for a couple of seconds since one episode was a minute in tournament time. Again I find it hilarious that you believe the Broly being stronger than Jiren quote, but not the character bios for the movie. And I see you keep referencing the Pokemon thing. This is completely different from that because in the Pokemon thing they gave out plot points that were fake. This isn't a plot point. If they said something like Broly will kill Goku and it turned out to be false it would be like the Pokemon example. This statement is, for all we know, just promotional(we won't know until the actual movie comes out!). It's just a promotional statement so I doubt people will care much at all if it's false, it's not a plot point. And your so called "proof" is far from proof. It states that Broly is stronger than a god of destruction(just a general term, so probably all of them), but it was also stated that Jiren has power that surpasses that of a god of destruction(just a general term, so with your assumptions we could say all of them). Also, again, we don't know how much powerful more power Broly is than a god of destruction. Broly's stronger than a god of destruction, but Jiren could still have more power than that. We just don't know how much stronger than a god both of them are! You haven't given me proof yet, you're just spinning information to try and become proof when it isn't. Of course this argument is pretty useless since there is no way of knowing which one of us is right until the movie comes out.
EH28 wrote: Huh, I can't read but I can type out words? It's really quite remarkable what the human race is a capable of huh? Also the Angels aren't taking sides by doing that, they're just doing their job as being the attendant of their God of destruction. So training fighters at the request of their gods is not taking sides, but just doing the job that they were assigned to do by the Great Priest. Also most Angels didn't even care when their universes were erased. The only ones that were shown to care were Cus and Vados, and they were only sad for a couple of seconds since one episode was a minute in tournament time. Again I find it hilarious that you believe the Broly being stronger than Jiren quote, but not the character bios for the movie. And I see you keep referencing the Pokemon thing. This is completely different from that because in the Pokemon thing they gave out plot points that were fake. This isn't a plot point. If they said something like Broly will kill Goku and it turned out to be false it would be like the Pokemon example. This statement is, for all we know, just promotional(we won't know until the actual movie comes out!). It's just a promotional statement so I doubt people will care much at all if it's false, it's not a plot point. And your so called "proof" is far from proof. It states that Broly is stronger than a god of destruction(just a general term, so probably all of them), but it was also stated that Jiren has power that surpasses that of a god of destruction(just a general term, so with your assumptions we could say all of them). Also, again, we don't know how much powerful more power Broly is than a god of destruction. Broly's stronger than a god of destruction, but Jiren could still have more power than that. We just don't know how much stronger than a god both of them are! You haven't given me proof yet, you're just spinning information to try and become proof when it isn't. Of course this argument is pretty useless since there is no way of knowing which one of us is right until the movie comes out.
Taking a side means you effectively aid one side out of several. In order to not take a side, you literally don't aid or harm ANYONE at all. That's what it means. True neutrality, not giving even a care to aid or harm them. So no, by doing that, even if it's at Zeno's orders, they STILL took sides. Besides, last I checked, Whis reversing time for Goku to deliver the coup de grace was taking sides as well (If I were Whis and I were to avoid taking sides, I wouldn't even DARE try to do that temporal do-over for Goku's sake, wanting to maintain being a pure neutral, since that's what it takes to not take sides, going by the most logical extreme of what it means to not take sides.).
And as far as why I don't believe the Whis claim about him not taking sides, simple, because he obviously took sides even BEFORE the whole Tournament of Power thing, I think starting with Frieza's resurrection, in fact.
And it's not far from proof, either. If Jiren is stronger than gods of destruction, and Broly is stronger than gods of destruction, they'd need to be at the same level, at the very LEAST (since there's literally no one else barring maybe MUI Goku who is stronger than gods of destruction in general). This is literally what they teach regarding mathematics via proofs. And I'm not spinning information at all, let alone doing so to have it be proof. Ask a mathematics teacher, they'll tell you that's actually proof. Heck, just ask people who do journalism or even essay writing for a living, they'll also confirm that's proof.
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote: Huh, I can't read but I can type out words? It's really quite remarkable what the human race is a capable of huh? Also the Angels aren't taking sides by doing that, they're just doing their job as being the attendant of their God of destruction. So training fighters at the request of their gods is not taking sides, but just doing the job that they were assigned to do by the Great Priest. Also most Angels didn't even care when their universes were erased. The only ones that were shown to care were Cus and Vados, and they were only sad for a couple of seconds since one episode was a minute in tournament time. Again I find it hilarious that you believe the Broly being stronger than Jiren quote, but not the character bios for the movie. And I see you keep referencing the Pokemon thing. This is completely different from that because in the Pokemon thing they gave out plot points that were fake. This isn't a plot point. If they said something like Broly will kill Goku and it turned out to be false it would be like the Pokemon example. This statement is, for all we know, just promotional(we won't know until the actual movie comes out!). It's just a promotional statement so I doubt people will care much at all if it's false, it's not a plot point. And your so called "proof" is far from proof. It states that Broly is stronger than a god of destruction(just a general term, so probably all of them), but it was also stated that Jiren has power that surpasses that of a god of destruction(just a general term, so with your assumptions we could say all of them). Also, again, we don't know how much powerful more power Broly is than a god of destruction. Broly's stronger than a god of destruction, but Jiren could still have more power than that. We just don't know how much stronger than a god both of them are! You haven't given me proof yet, you're just spinning information to try and become proof when it isn't. Of course this argument is pretty useless since there is no way of knowing which one of us is right until the movie comes out.
Taking a side means you effectively aid one side out of several. In order to not take a side, you literally don't aid or harm ANYONE at all. That's what it means. True neutrality, not giving even a care to aid or harm them. So no, by doing that, even if it's at Zeno's orders, they STILL took sides. Besides, last I checked, Whis reversing time for Goku to deliver the coup de grace was taking sides as well (If I were Whis and I were to avoid taking sides, I wouldn't even DARE try to do that temporal do-over for Goku's sake, wanting to maintain being a pure neutral, since that's what it takes to not take sides, going by the most logical extreme of what it means to not take sides.).
And as far as why I don't believe the Whis claim about him not taking sides, simple, because he obviously took sides even BEFORE the whole Tournament of Power thing, I think starting with Frieza's resurrection, in fact.
And it's not far from proof, either. If Jiren is stronger than gods of destruction, and Broly is stronger than gods of destruction, they'd need to be at the same level, at the very LEAST (since there's literally no one else barring maybe MUI Goku who is stronger than gods of destruction in general). This is literally what they teach regarding mathematics via proofs. And I'm not spinning information at all, let alone doing so to have it be proof. Ask a mathematics teacher, they'll tell you that's actually proof. Heck, just ask people who do journalism or even essay writing for a living, they'll also confirm that's proof.
The fact that you don't believe the angel thing, but you do believe the Broly power thing is quite absurd. It's like me saying that the Broky thing isn't true because Jiren is a strong guy. Also the Angels do take a side, the side of the god they serve. Beerus didn't want Earth to be destroyed so he listened to Beerus. They follow their gods orders, but don't takes sides of the mortals. I can't believe I have to say this again, but it's unknown how much more powerful Jiren and Broky are than the gods. You have this idea that Broly can be at the same level, or stronger than Jiren because they are both stronger than gods of destruction, but your continently leaving out that Jiren could be stronger than Broly because of the same reason. That is not proof if you're spinning it, well since you don't want me to say that I'll say you're "twirling" information. Why even argue this we we won't know who's right until the movie?
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
Tiger2025 wrote:
And while it is true that the Tournament of Power was written by multiple writers, I'm pretty sure the writers wouldn't have given such absolute statements unless it was specifically intended to be the case. And with Goku, again, that at least had a mitigating factor (Piccolo being poisoned by Frost), while there was literally nothing else indicating such is the case other than sheer raw power here.
Also, technically, Jiren WAS an enemy, since Goku and Frieza needed to beat him to ensure their universe survived. He wasn't a villain, sure, but that doesn't make him any less of an enemy. If you fight on opposite sides, you are by definition enemies.
And again, if they really were wanting to give hype, they didn't need to state that Broly was stronger than a God of Destruction to promote said hype: His actions in the trailer where he managed to outclass even Super Saiyan Blue Goku without even transforming into his Super Saiyan form, let alone his Legendary form, heck, even featuring Broly in the film at all would generate hype in itself.
And like I said, even having Broly in the film at ALL would have been more than enough hype factor thanks to his massive popularity, let alone the trailer showing him giving even Super Saiyan Blues a hard time well before he even went Super Saiyan, let alone Legendary Super Saiyan. I know if I wanted to hype him up, the trailer alone would have done it, see zero reason to even indicate him being stronger than a God of Destruction, let alone be at least on par with Jiren or even stronger than that, or calling him the strongest character. In other words, unless I actually DO intend for him to be the strongest character, I would NOT call him that, not event to "please" Broly's fans, unless it actually IS the truth. I would not want to lie to the fans.
And as far as Jiren, maybe he does train after the tournament, but we won't know because he's not even APPEARING in the movie. And besides, Goku and Vegeta trained after the tournament (heck, their literal last scene in the saga was them about to enter a sparring match in SSB forms to attempt to draw out MUI.), and that training didn't exactly help them against Broly if the preview is of any indication. If it didn't help them regardless of how stronger they might have gotten, it certainly isn't going to help Jiren either.
And like I said, the trailer, heck, Broly even being in the movie at ALL would have been its own hype, no need to report him as being stronger than that if he wasn't (and just as an FYI, I didn't even MIND Broly being weaker than Beerus initially since I actually hated the concept of the Gods being so weaker than mortals that they literally could be killed by them, and was somewhat glad we got gods that actually WERE superior to mortals in every way. Of course, they ended up ruining that with the Gods of Destruction in the Tournament of Power thanks to Jiren and MUI Goku being stronger than them, but still...). With your use of the word "hype", I guess Honest John car salespeople are using "hype" to sell irreparable and useless junk cars to people. Honestly, if they lied like that, even to promote "hype", I'd REALLY throw the book at them and make sure to draw a lot of their customers away as revenge for being lied to. Even my dad said that lying to your customers is NOT a good idea. And do I have to remind you of the Kalos League incident where they falsely implied Ash was going to win and how many fans on both sides of the pond expressed their outrage to the Japanese writers for that? Do you REALLY think the writers would want to RISK lying to their fans like that, ESPECIALLY for the sake of hype?
And no, if it's deliberately giving out false information, it is a lie. By definition, lying means intent to deceive a person. Even if people don't believe you, it doesn't change that you lied. As far as those sources, I'm pretty sure those were fan speculations instead of official statements by the writers. Besides, in a way, Jiren DID get Goku ringed out, only it was closer to Goku sacrificing himself to ensure Jiren got a ring out.
And as far as promotional, I cited the trailer, the beginning moments of it, where Goku and Whis are talking at the beginning. And since that's pretty obviously going to be in the movie, it's pretty clear it's not simply promotional stuff.
Tiger2025 wrote:
You realize Broly is basically Hulk. Cooler is not just like Frieza. You have to have low preception to say this. Kale and Broly have less differences. Since this Broly was made after Kale, I am going to say Broly is copy of Kale to follow your logic.
Cooler differences:
Also, the movie villian with the most characterization is Paragus. Then it is Cooler. There is a reason that only the first Broly movie is good
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote: Huh, I can't read but I can type out words? It's really quite remarkable what the human race is a capable of huh? Also the Angels aren't taking sides by doing that, they're just doing their job as being the attendant of their God of destruction. So training fighters at the request of their gods is not taking sides, but just doing the job that they were assigned to do by the Great Priest. Also most Angels didn't even care when their universes were erased. The only ones that were shown to care were Cus and Vados, and they were only sad for a couple of seconds since one episode was a minute in tournament time. Again I find it hilarious that you believe the Broly being stronger than Jiren quote, but not the character bios for the movie. And I see you keep referencing the Pokemon thing. This is completely different from that because in the Pokemon thing they gave out plot points that were fake. This isn't a plot point. If they said something like Broly will kill Goku and it turned out to be false it would be like the Pokemon example. This statement is, for all we know, just promotional(we won't know until the actual movie comes out!). It's just a promotional statement so I doubt people will care much at all if it's false, it's not a plot point. And your so called "proof" is far from proof. It states that Broly is stronger than a god of destruction(just a general term, so probably all of them), but it was also stated that Jiren has power that surpasses that of a god of destruction(just a general term, so with your assumptions we could say all of them). Also, again, we don't know how much powerful more power Broly is than a god of destruction. Broly's stronger than a god of destruction, but Jiren could still have more power than that. We just don't know how much stronger than a god both of them are! You haven't given me proof yet, you're just spinning information to try and become proof when it isn't. Of course this argument is pretty useless since there is no way of knowing which one of us is right until the movie comes out.
Taking a side means you effectively aid one side out of several. In order to not take a side, you literally don't aid or harm ANYONE at all. That's what it means. True neutrality, not giving even a care to aid or harm them. So no, by doing that, even if it's at Zeno's orders, they STILL took sides. Besides, last I checked, Whis reversing time for Goku to deliver the coup de grace was taking sides as well (If I were Whis and I were to avoid taking sides, I wouldn't even DARE try to do that temporal do-over for Goku's sake, wanting to maintain being a pure neutral, since that's what it takes to not take sides, going by the most logical extreme of what it means to not take sides.).
And as far as why I don't believe the Whis claim about him not taking sides, simple, because he obviously took sides even BEFORE the whole Tournament of Power thing, I think starting with Frieza's resurrection, in fact.
And it's not far from proof, either. If Jiren is stronger than gods of destruction, and Broly is stronger than gods of destruction, they'd need to be at the same level, at the very LEAST (since there's literally no one else barring maybe MUI Goku who is stronger than gods of destruction in general). This is literally what they teach regarding mathematics via proofs. And I'm not spinning information at all, let alone doing so to have it be proof. Ask a mathematics teacher, they'll tell you that's actually proof. Heck, just ask people who do journalism or even essay writing for a living, they'll also confirm that's proof.
The fact that you don't believe the angel thing, but you do believe the Broly power thing is quite absurd. It's like me saying that the Broky thing isn't true because Jiren is a strong guy. Also the Angels do take a side, the side of the god they serve. Beerus didn't want Earth to be destroyed so he listened to Beerus. They follow their gods orders, but don't takes sides of the mortals. I can't believe I have to say this again, but it's unknown how much more powerful Jiren and Broky are than the gods. You have this idea that Broly can be at the same level, or stronger than Jiren because they are both stronger than gods of destruction, but your continently leaving out that Jiren could be stronger than Broly because of the same reason. That is not proof if you're spinning it, well since you don't want me to say that I'll say you're "twirling" information. Why even argue this we we won't know who's right until the movie?
Again, he'd need to be at the same level as Jiren in order to actually BE stronger than the Gods of Destruction since he's the only other character to actually BE stronger than Gods of Destruction. Use logic there, if two characters are stated to be stronger than a certain group, and there has literally been no indication earlier that one's weaker than the other, the minimum actually DOES require them to be at the same level. And besides, it's been a common trend in the franchise that the people they fight against, major villains I should add, or at least major antagonists (since most of the tournament fighters aren't actual villains, Frost being an exception), are stronger than the previous sagas' villains/antagonists (Beerus largely being an exception especially when he was never actually defeated unlike the others, although even THERE, he ultimately got surpassed by Jiren). Frieza was surpassed by Dr. Gero/Androids 17/18/Cell, and they in turn got surpassed by Dabura/Majin Buu and his various forms, and then he gets surpassed by Beerus (who by the time of the movie/saga he's fought in at least was much stronger than Buu).
And again, they wouldn't have needed to claim Broly was stronger than Jiren to push hype, especially if it wasn't actually true, since Broly even being shown at all, not to mention the trailer of him beating up the SSB forms, was MORE than enough to build up hype as it is.
Though I'll admit I was out of line saying learn to read, and I'll apologize for that.
Tiger2025 wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
EH28 wrote:
Weedle McHairybug wrote:
Tiger2025 wrote:
And while it is true that the Tournament of Power was written by multiple writers, I'm pretty sure the writers wouldn't have given such absolute statements unless it was specifically intended to be the case. And with Goku, again, that at least had a mitigating factor (Piccolo being poisoned by Frost), while there was literally nothing else indicating such is the case other than sheer raw power here.
Also, technically, Jiren WAS an enemy, since Goku and Frieza needed to beat him to ensure their universe survived. He wasn't a villain, sure, but that doesn't make him any less of an enemy. If you fight on opposite sides, you are by definition enemies.
And again, if they really were wanting to give hype, they didn't need to state that Broly was stronger than a God of Destruction to promote said hype: His actions in the trailer where he managed to outclass even Super Saiyan Blue Goku without even transforming into his Super Saiyan form, let alone his Legendary form, heck, even featuring Broly in the film at all would generate hype in itself.
And like I said, even having Broly in the film at ALL would have been more than enough hype factor thanks to his massive popularity, let alone the trailer showing him giving even Super Saiyan Blues a hard time well before he even went Super Saiyan, let alone Legendary Super Saiyan. I know if I wanted to hype him up, the trailer alone would have done it, see zero reason to even indicate him being stronger than a God of Destruction, let alone be at least on par with Jiren or even stronger than that, or calling him the strongest character. In other words, unless I actually DO intend for him to be the strongest character, I would NOT call him that, not event to "please" Broly's fans, unless it actually IS the truth. I would not want to lie to the fans.
And as far as Jiren, maybe he does train after the tournament, but we won't know because he's not even APPEARING in the movie. And besides, Goku and Vegeta trained after the tournament (heck, their literal last scene in the saga was them about to enter a sparring match in SSB forms to attempt to draw out MUI.), and that training didn't exactly help them against Broly if the preview is of any indication. If it didn't help them regardless of how stronger they might have gotten, it certainly isn't going to help Jiren either.
And like I said, the trailer, heck, Broly even being in the movie at ALL would have been its own hype, no need to report him as being stronger than that if he wasn't (and just as an FYI, I didn't even MIND Broly being weaker than Beerus initially since I actually hated the concept of the Gods being so weaker than mortals that they literally could be killed by them, and was somewhat glad we got gods that actually WERE superior to mortals in every way. Of course, they ended up ruining that with the Gods of Destruction in the Tournament of Power thanks to Jiren and MUI Goku being stronger than them, but still...). With your use of the word "hype", I guess Honest John car salespeople are using "hype" to sell irreparable and useless junk cars to people. Honestly, if they lied like that, even to promote "hype", I'd REALLY throw the book at them and make sure to draw a lot of their customers away as revenge for being lied to. Even my dad said that lying to your customers is NOT a good idea. And do I have to remind you of the Kalos League incident where they falsely implied Ash was going to win and how many fans on both sides of the pond expressed their outrage to the Japanese writers for that? Do you REALLY think the writers would want to RISK lying to their fans like that, ESPECIALLY for the sake of hype?
And no, if it's deliberately giving out false information, it is a lie. By definition, lying means intent to deceive a person. Even if people don't believe you, it doesn't change that you lied. As far as those sources, I'm pretty sure those were fan speculations instead of official statements by the writers. Besides, in a way, Jiren DID get Goku ringed out, only it was closer to Goku sacrificing himself to ensure Jiren got a ring out.
And as far as promotional, I cited the trailer, the beginning moments of it, where Goku and Whis are talking at the beginning. And since that's pretty obviously going to be in the movie, it's pretty clear it's not simply promotional stuff.
Tiger2025 wrote:
You realize Broly is basically Hulk. Cooler is not just like Frieza. You have to have low preception to say this. Kale and Broly have less differences. Since this Broly was made after Kale, I am going to say Broly is copy of Kale to follow your logic.
Cooler differences:
Also, the movie villian with the most characterization is Paragus. Then it is Cooler. There is a reason that only the first Broly movie is good
Tell that to TV Tropes:
Contrasting Sequel Antagonist: Broly is different from many movie villains and is one of the reasons why he is so memorable. Unlike all movie villains before him, he isn't a reread of an already established villain, he has a shown backstory that paints him in a somewhat tragic light, and his unhinged animalistic personality helped him establish him apart from past villains who were smart enough but their motivations weren't really fleshed out, being rather one-note for the sake of a conflict. He predates Majin Buu in this regard, but unlike Buu who is prone to cartoonish violence or acts, he is treated completely serious.
Yes, Cooler does have his differences as you pointed out, and he does ultimately come closer to breaking the mold of being an expy before Broly did (I'd contest whether he isn't actually afraid of a Super Saiyan, though: He DID back away in fear when his punch failed to even impact Goku due to quivering as he's "backing away"), but even he ultimately was similar to Frieza in terms of overall role, which is still the point about his being an expy. Android 13 also had his differences compared to Cell (namely, his actually LOOKING human rather than like an insect, that he has some camaraderie with the people he ultimately absorbs due to acting as their boss instead of how 17 and 18 largely were independent of him, etc., etc.), yet no one can deny he's an outright expy of Cell. Same goes for Janemba/Hirudegarn and Majin Buu, or how Turles and Lord Slug were effectively expies of Raditz and King Piccolo, respectively, even if they do have their differences.
And you're forgetting that Paragus's characterization dealt largely with his backstory, which, BTW, ALSO formed the basis of much of Broly's character.
And Broly may have been canonized after Kale was created, but Broly as a whole was created BEFORE her, so he's still not a copy o her.
For all we know the stronger than Jiren thing is only in regards to pre-potential unlocked Jiren, i.e. non Ultra Instinct Goku.
Cooler is Frieza's brother so of course physically there will be simlarities. To say he's a copy of Frieza is like saying any Saiyan is a copy of another Saiyan. Cooler's personality is very different as a heavy part of his character is about sibling rivalry and his personal pride, and he's more patient and far less reckless Frieza is.
Stryzzar wrote: For all we know the stronger than Jiren thing is only in regards to pre-potential unlocked Jiren, i.e. non Ultra Instinct Goku.
Cooler is Frieza's brother so of course physically there will be simlarities. To say he's a copy of Frieza is like saying any Saiyan is a copy of another Saiyan. Cooler's personality is very different as a heavy part of his character is about sibling rivalry and his personal pride, and he's more patient and far less reckless Frieza is.
Don't know if pre-Unlock potential thing is stronger than the GoDs or not, which is what I'm mostly focusing on.
Like I said, take that latter bit up with TV Tropes, which DID say that most movie villains, at least prior to Broly, were rereads of various established villains, and that naturally would include Cooler.
TVTropes is good, but I didn't realize they were an authority now. What're they, god?
Cooler and Freeza's personalities are different, same with Frost and Freeza, although that's a closer match. Cooler exhibits more patience and slightly less racism (ironically Frost is the least outwardly racist out of the group, at least prior to his defeat), but primarily it's their relations to their underlings. Freeza has amassed an army of warriors of decent to good level but that can get killed and whom he neither protects nor trusts at any reasonable level. Freeza intimidates and scares his underlings and is not above spontaneously killing any.
In contrast Cooler is an evil character, but a decent boss. His only known underlings are all high level, unlike Freeza's. He barely ever intimidates his underlings and directly offers to fight opponents at too high a level for them, including Piccolo and Goku, without criticizing their competence or threatening to kill them on the spot, much less presenting how he is going to kill them on another underling. Finally it's heavily implied unlike Freeza he is somewhat harder working and was willing to put in effort to overcome both his brother and father, since it's implied he trained to get form V even prior to actually having his power endangered by anyone from outside of his family.